Would like to know reason for front end mis-alignment on old rav4
April 11, 2013 5:48 PM Subscribe
Four new tires were installed last June; i.e., june of 2012. A month later mechanic noticed that the front control arms were rusted; they were replaced with new ones.
Today brought in for miscellaneous work. Mechanic observed that each front tire was badly worn and in need of replacement. The tires had about 12,000 miles on them; the rear ones were normal. Problem was toe-in misalignment of about .1 deg left side and .075 deg right.
This was all at the same family run shop where we've taken our cars for 15 years. They are not perfect, but they are very good, professional, and we've never felt taken advantage of.
Questions:
1. How could this have happened? It's hard to imagine an explanation other than some kind of problem with the new control arms or installation error. If it were just one wheel, then conceivably it was due to hitting a pot hole; but it's both wheels to about the same extent.
2. If they had realigned after putting in the new control arms, then presumably we would not have lost the tires. Is it normal to NOT realign given that the new control arms bolt on without anything to adjust.
Here is a picture of the new control arm (Scroll down at link to see pict).:
http://www.carpartsdiscount.com/auto/parts/98/toyota/rav4/control_arms/control_arm_front_lower_right.html?3593=47365
Mechanic admits to being puzzled. This is not a big deal to us, but I'm curious and hoping to find a rational explanation.
Thanks
This was all at the same family run shop where we've taken our cars for 15 years. They are not perfect, but they are very good, professional, and we've never felt taken advantage of.
Questions:
1. How could this have happened? It's hard to imagine an explanation other than some kind of problem with the new control arms or installation error. If it were just one wheel, then conceivably it was due to hitting a pot hole; but it's both wheels to about the same extent.
2. If they had realigned after putting in the new control arms, then presumably we would not have lost the tires. Is it normal to NOT realign given that the new control arms bolt on without anything to adjust.
Here is a picture of the new control arm (Scroll down at link to see pict).:
http://www.carpartsdiscount.com/auto/parts/98/toyota/rav4/control_arms/control_arm_front_lower_right.html?3593=47365
Mechanic admits to being puzzled. This is not a big deal to us, but I'm curious and hoping to find a rational explanation.
Thanks
Response by poster: k5.user - No, it was at the shop for the first rotation when the mechanic noticed the problem.
posted by Kevin S at 6:32 PM on April 11, 2013
posted by Kevin S at 6:32 PM on April 11, 2013
Best answer: A tenth of a degree should not cause tire wear like that. The specifications for toe are usually +/- a half or whole degree.
Did he check camber and caster? How was the vehicle riding on the road? Harshness, wander, steering feeling imprecise or too precise?
The vehicle should have been aligned after replacing the control arms. They are integral to the alignment of the vehicle and small differences mean a lot. Even though there is nothing to adjust on the parts themselves, almost everything they connect to does need adjustment. The control arm is a sort of frame that the suspension connects to.
Finally, is he sure his alignment machine is in spec?
Oh yeah, and it is very possible the new control arms are of a slightly different size than the original, but doubtful that they would be the wrong part or installed incorrectly. That part is hard to mess up.
posted by gjc at 6:54 PM on April 11, 2013
Did he check camber and caster? How was the vehicle riding on the road? Harshness, wander, steering feeling imprecise or too precise?
The vehicle should have been aligned after replacing the control arms. They are integral to the alignment of the vehicle and small differences mean a lot. Even though there is nothing to adjust on the parts themselves, almost everything they connect to does need adjustment. The control arm is a sort of frame that the suspension connects to.
Finally, is he sure his alignment machine is in spec?
Oh yeah, and it is very possible the new control arms are of a slightly different size than the original, but doubtful that they would be the wrong part or installed incorrectly. That part is hard to mess up.
posted by gjc at 6:54 PM on April 11, 2013
Best answer: It is pretty standard to realign the car after any major component in the front end is replaced. All parts have a tolerance and it is likely the alignment was set after some wear had occurred to the front end (front end means all the suspension and steering and powertrain (if AWD or FWD) components in the car). So putting in new control arms (which is pretty much THE basic suspension component that all else is bolted to) is going to make the alignment setting wrong, even if you don't move any of them (and I don't see how you replace a control arm without changing the setting on several items) so if they didn't do the alignment after the new control arm was installed than that was negligent. It is impossible for just one wheel to be out for the toe adjustment. This is set by some adjustment on the steering linkage and this self centers as you drive-the biggest indicator to the driver that there is a toe problem is the steering wheel is not centered when driving straight ahead. When they come back and tell you it is xx on one wheel and xxx on another it just means that each adjuster has to moved a different amount to both center the steering wheel and set the toe properly. Here is some good information on Toe.
However, as the owner and operator of the car, you are responsible for periodic inspections of the car for things like worn out tires and such. 12000 miles isn't unreasonable for a rotation but it is a little on the long side, usually between 5-10k is more advisable, and you should be checking for things like worn out tires like once a month or at most every two months (this can just be an eyeball check were you get down and really look at the tread and make sure they are not worn out or wearing weird) since your life and other peoples lives are at stake (sorry if preaching a little but really, this is serious and catching problems early can save you big money and time and maybe your life and machinery must be maintained-and cars, even Toyotas, are very complicated pieces of machinery and one curb check can ruin an alignment), and I have fought this battle many, many times with people who don't understand the whole maintenance thing and I am a little...short fused about it.
Also you say the control arms were replaced due to rust so I am assuming you live in a northern climate with lots of snow and frequent road salting (control arms don't really rust in other environments unless they are defective) and corrosion in other places in the suspension can cause the alignment to change or parts of the car to get a little 'soft' from the rust and change the alignment from even minor things like crossing railroad tracks. However, your mechanic should be able to spot rust that bad and show you. BTW the best way to prevent rust in areas with road salt is thoroughly washing your car on a regular basis in the winter (when i lived in such an area I tried to do it after every major storm where they were salting the roads). However several models of Toyotas have had some problems with rust over the years (mostly pickups/trucks but could also include RAV4's, don't know) through improperly treated steel.
posted by bartonlong at 6:58 PM on April 11, 2013
However, as the owner and operator of the car, you are responsible for periodic inspections of the car for things like worn out tires and such. 12000 miles isn't unreasonable for a rotation but it is a little on the long side, usually between 5-10k is more advisable, and you should be checking for things like worn out tires like once a month or at most every two months (this can just be an eyeball check were you get down and really look at the tread and make sure they are not worn out or wearing weird) since your life and other peoples lives are at stake (sorry if preaching a little but really, this is serious and catching problems early can save you big money and time and maybe your life and machinery must be maintained-and cars, even Toyotas, are very complicated pieces of machinery and one curb check can ruin an alignment), and I have fought this battle many, many times with people who don't understand the whole maintenance thing and I am a little...short fused about it.
Also you say the control arms were replaced due to rust so I am assuming you live in a northern climate with lots of snow and frequent road salting (control arms don't really rust in other environments unless they are defective) and corrosion in other places in the suspension can cause the alignment to change or parts of the car to get a little 'soft' from the rust and change the alignment from even minor things like crossing railroad tracks. However, your mechanic should be able to spot rust that bad and show you. BTW the best way to prevent rust in areas with road salt is thoroughly washing your car on a regular basis in the winter (when i lived in such an area I tried to do it after every major storm where they were salting the roads). However several models of Toyotas have had some problems with rust over the years (mostly pickups/trucks but could also include RAV4's, don't know) through improperly treated steel.
posted by bartonlong at 6:58 PM on April 11, 2013
Minor quibble: it is possible for only one wheel to have an improper toe setting. If both wheels are out an equal amount, the steering wheel will still track straight. If they are out unequal amounts, the steering wheel will track off center. When they check the alignment, they set the steering wheel in the center and then check and adjust from there. There are only two adjustments- left and right tie rods.
The rear wheels interact with the vehicle's desire to track a certain way too. Assuming they are properly aligned, a car with three correctly adjusted wheels and one incorrect wheel will crab slightly as it goes down the road, causing all kinds of strange wear on the tires.
Alignment that is bad enough to ruin tires in 12,000 miles should be bad enough to eyeball. If you go to a flat parking lot and drive slowly with the steering wheel centered (regardless of where the car actually wants to go) and then gently stop without moving the steering wheel, you should be able to stand in front of the car and compare the front tires to the rear ones and get a general idea of what's wrong. Do the wheels look splayed out or in? Are they squatting? Etc.
Then again, I'm a guy who aligns his own cars with string, a ruler and a level, so ymmv.
posted by gjc at 7:42 PM on April 11, 2013
The rear wheels interact with the vehicle's desire to track a certain way too. Assuming they are properly aligned, a car with three correctly adjusted wheels and one incorrect wheel will crab slightly as it goes down the road, causing all kinds of strange wear on the tires.
Alignment that is bad enough to ruin tires in 12,000 miles should be bad enough to eyeball. If you go to a flat parking lot and drive slowly with the steering wheel centered (regardless of where the car actually wants to go) and then gently stop without moving the steering wheel, you should be able to stand in front of the car and compare the front tires to the rear ones and get a general idea of what's wrong. Do the wheels look splayed out or in? Are they squatting? Etc.
Then again, I'm a guy who aligns his own cars with string, a ruler and a level, so ymmv.
posted by gjc at 7:42 PM on April 11, 2013
Response by poster: Thanks everyone, that pretty much confirms my growing suspicion that it should have been aligned after the control arms were replaced. Hard to understand since my car guys are pretty good generally.
I was also thinking that the parts may have been a little off spec since they are after-market. But, gjc, "...small differences mean a lot.." seems more probable.
Normally I'm the one doing the preaching about maintenance, so, bartonlog, no problem there. In the past I've kept a log of tread depth updated periodically with outer/mid/inner depths. Lazyness set in. Car belongs to significant other so I hardly ever drive it or even ride in it; back to active monitoring from now on. It's entirely possible that I would have noticed. Lesson learned.
Yes, we are in a northern climate with plenty of snow and salt and usually a weekly trip to the car wash including under-body - but still the rust.
posted by Kevin S at 9:11 PM on April 11, 2013
I was also thinking that the parts may have been a little off spec since they are after-market. But, gjc, "...small differences mean a lot.." seems more probable.
Normally I'm the one doing the preaching about maintenance, so, bartonlog, no problem there. In the past I've kept a log of tread depth updated periodically with outer/mid/inner depths. Lazyness set in. Car belongs to significant other so I hardly ever drive it or even ride in it; back to active monitoring from now on. It's entirely possible that I would have noticed. Lesson learned.
Yes, we are in a northern climate with plenty of snow and salt and usually a weekly trip to the car wash including under-body - but still the rust.
posted by Kevin S at 9:11 PM on April 11, 2013
Response by poster: I may have mis-remembered the alignment numbers. .075 - .1 degrees does seem small intuitively speaking.
posted by Kevin S at 9:14 PM on April 11, 2013
posted by Kevin S at 9:14 PM on April 11, 2013
The specifications for toe are usually +/- a half or whole degree.
Not in my experience. A band of 0.5-0.7 degree total is what I would expect for a road car. Not a 2 degree spread.
Minor quibble: it is possible for only one wheel to have an improper toe setting.
Absolutely true - the datum for straight ahead is the steering wheel position, not where the wheels align due to caster. This is particularly important in power steering racks.
Then again, I'm a guy who aligns his own cars with string, a ruler and a level, so ymmv.
Nothing at all wrong with string alignment. I prefer fishing line instead of string, but this technique is used throughout motorsport right up to and including F1.
that pretty much confirms my growing suspicion that it should have been aligned after the control arms were replaced.
Well, yes it should have, but in which direction was the error? It is more helpful to know the total toe per wheel and the manufacturer spread, for future reference. If it had 0.1 degree or so (which is about 1mm or so difference the rim - not an inconsequential amount) more toe in than spec it could have caused a wear issue over 12,000 miles. Rotating your tyres would have prevented this and yes, you should have caught this if you'd stuck to your more usual methods of observation.
So they should have realigned it, but I'd just be mildly annoyed if it were me. They could have measured the to before and after with a rough measurement (tape measure across the tyre) and got within that level of accuracy and thought they were saving the money on an alignment. So, lesson learned but no reason to black mark the garage in my opinion.
posted by Brockles at 5:05 AM on April 12, 2013
Not in my experience. A band of 0.5-0.7 degree total is what I would expect for a road car. Not a 2 degree spread.
Minor quibble: it is possible for only one wheel to have an improper toe setting.
Absolutely true - the datum for straight ahead is the steering wheel position, not where the wheels align due to caster. This is particularly important in power steering racks.
Then again, I'm a guy who aligns his own cars with string, a ruler and a level, so ymmv.
Nothing at all wrong with string alignment. I prefer fishing line instead of string, but this technique is used throughout motorsport right up to and including F1.
that pretty much confirms my growing suspicion that it should have been aligned after the control arms were replaced.
Well, yes it should have, but in which direction was the error? It is more helpful to know the total toe per wheel and the manufacturer spread, for future reference. If it had 0.1 degree or so (which is about 1mm or so difference the rim - not an inconsequential amount) more toe in than spec it could have caused a wear issue over 12,000 miles. Rotating your tyres would have prevented this and yes, you should have caught this if you'd stuck to your more usual methods of observation.
So they should have realigned it, but I'd just be mildly annoyed if it were me. They could have measured the to before and after with a rough measurement (tape measure across the tyre) and got within that level of accuracy and thought they were saving the money on an alignment. So, lesson learned but no reason to black mark the garage in my opinion.
posted by Brockles at 5:05 AM on April 12, 2013
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posted by k5.user at 6:24 PM on April 11, 2013