Deciding to transition away from the legal profession-- too soon?
April 9, 2013 8:26 PM Subscribe
I'm a law student in Ontario, just about done 2 years out of 3. I absolutely hate the academic aspect of it, and I'm pretty miserable. I didn't particularly enjoy the practice experiences I've had either, at 3 different legal-aid type clinics working as a student in family law, criminal law, and landlord/tenant matters.
I have invested a lot of money into pursuing this law degree. Should I be giving serious thought to finding something else to do with my life as soon as I graduate, or should I stick it out and work my hardest to try to get a paying job in the legal profession, in the hopes that I will be able to pay off my student loan debt?
I'm a law student, who is almost done 2 years of law school in Ontario (2 weeks left).
I guess I'm one of those typical students who went to law school after getting a BA in Humanities, probably for all the wrong reasons. During undergrad, I wanted to go into teaching and I actually spent high school and undergrad working towards that goal. However, by the time I graduated, it turned out there was suddenly a critical oversupply of teachers in Ontario. So I took off 2 years to really think about what I wanted to do, and try to pay off my undergrad student loan debt. I graduated in the midst of that big recession which is, as far as I know, still going on. I worked some part-time service jobs (think barista, cashier, receptionist), then applied to more school. I also did some personality and career testing. I always come out as an ENFJ in the Myers-Briggs test, and both lawyer and teacher have consistently topped the list of any career aptitude test I take. I took the LSAT and applied to law school sort of last minute. I also got into teacher's college but based on job market trends, I thought law would be a safer bet.
I didn't really know what exactly the law would involve. I didn't know any lawyers who I could shadow at the time. I just had this notion in my head that getting more education would be a good thing, and that I needed practical skills to market. I also wanted to help people, so I thought I'd get a professional degree that everybody said is versatile. Lack of imagination on my part, I suppose.
I haven't done that well in law school to date-- I have a C average. We're curved to a B so this is well below average. I've gotten some As and Bs in classes that I am engaged in, but for the most part, the story of my law school academic trajectory can be summed up by a complete and utter inability to muster up any motivation for my studies whatsoever. It could be depression, but I haven't been diagnosed. I'm also not sure to what extent it could be situational depression brought on by hating law school or from the death of a close family member last year after a prolonged terminal illness.
I do feel different from most of my peers people around me, for whom it seems as if attending law school was a lifelong dream. My classmates are incredibly happy and feel fortunate to be here; they're also motivated and hardworking. There is a lot of talk about how fortunate/privileged we are to be members of the legal profession, but all I can see is an elitist, status-oriented, classist and unhappy profession, and I honestly consider the decision to attend law school to be one of the biggest missteps in my life so far.
I've spent a lot of time at school doing things that aren't academic in nature, because I enjoy being involved and I've always been an active part of my community-- things such as volunteer and extra-curricular work for causes that I care about. Not actual legal work, but advocacy work, campaigning, coordinating events/speakers' panels, fundraising for local shelters, community outreach, etc. This has led to me being sort of known in the school as a volunteer extraordinaire, and even getting awards for contribution to the school community, all while my grades suffer and I continue to get sub-par marks on my transcript.
The transcript, however, is what's most important when finding a job. The majority of legal employers do want people who can say they're interested in some charitable work, but of course grades matter more. So all the legal related work experiences I've gotten have been volunteer positions (inability to find paid work due to aforementioned poor grades). And guess what? I've hated that too, although I must have faked it well enough 'cause the lawyers I've worked with/for always say what a good lawyer I'll make, and how "we need" lawyers like me.
I do plan to finish school and get called to the bar. This whole process will take ZZ more years, because Canadians have to article. This means I will graduate in XXXX, and be called in YYYY.
I'm staying in law school only because I've promised my very loving and supportive partner that I will stick it out and get the degree. Also, because I just want to work to pay off my debt over time. I'm still hoping the degree and being able to say that I'm a lawyer will be somewhat useful in finding a job-- any job! But I don't really see myself enjoying the practice of law, even if somebody did hire me in an actual legal job for actual money (which seems ridiculously unlikely with my grades).
My question is: given all of this, should I seriously be thinking about transitioning away from law at this point, or should I stick it out, do my best to get better grades next year and some kind of law job (any legal job) that will help me pay off my debt?
I'm going to be about 130K in the hole after this whole process, and my biggest priority is paying this off-- this includes 26K of undergrad debt, law school for 3 years (high tuition + living expenses), estimated fees to graduate/take the bar exams/be called, etc. I did not get any financial support from my parents whatsoever; they are lovely people who are incredibly emotionally supportive, and they let me live at home during undergrad, but they are poor.
I am tied to remaining in Ontario (the Toronto area), and there are no debt forgiveness programs available to me.
Any advice from lawyers, former lawyers, other law students, or people who have or had crippling amounts of student loan debt would be highly appreciated.
I'm a law student, who is almost done 2 years of law school in Ontario (2 weeks left).
I guess I'm one of those typical students who went to law school after getting a BA in Humanities, probably for all the wrong reasons. During undergrad, I wanted to go into teaching and I actually spent high school and undergrad working towards that goal. However, by the time I graduated, it turned out there was suddenly a critical oversupply of teachers in Ontario. So I took off 2 years to really think about what I wanted to do, and try to pay off my undergrad student loan debt. I graduated in the midst of that big recession which is, as far as I know, still going on. I worked some part-time service jobs (think barista, cashier, receptionist), then applied to more school. I also did some personality and career testing. I always come out as an ENFJ in the Myers-Briggs test, and both lawyer and teacher have consistently topped the list of any career aptitude test I take. I took the LSAT and applied to law school sort of last minute. I also got into teacher's college but based on job market trends, I thought law would be a safer bet.
I didn't really know what exactly the law would involve. I didn't know any lawyers who I could shadow at the time. I just had this notion in my head that getting more education would be a good thing, and that I needed practical skills to market. I also wanted to help people, so I thought I'd get a professional degree that everybody said is versatile. Lack of imagination on my part, I suppose.
I haven't done that well in law school to date-- I have a C average. We're curved to a B so this is well below average. I've gotten some As and Bs in classes that I am engaged in, but for the most part, the story of my law school academic trajectory can be summed up by a complete and utter inability to muster up any motivation for my studies whatsoever. It could be depression, but I haven't been diagnosed. I'm also not sure to what extent it could be situational depression brought on by hating law school or from the death of a close family member last year after a prolonged terminal illness.
I do feel different from most of my peers people around me, for whom it seems as if attending law school was a lifelong dream. My classmates are incredibly happy and feel fortunate to be here; they're also motivated and hardworking. There is a lot of talk about how fortunate/privileged we are to be members of the legal profession, but all I can see is an elitist, status-oriented, classist and unhappy profession, and I honestly consider the decision to attend law school to be one of the biggest missteps in my life so far.
I've spent a lot of time at school doing things that aren't academic in nature, because I enjoy being involved and I've always been an active part of my community-- things such as volunteer and extra-curricular work for causes that I care about. Not actual legal work, but advocacy work, campaigning, coordinating events/speakers' panels, fundraising for local shelters, community outreach, etc. This has led to me being sort of known in the school as a volunteer extraordinaire, and even getting awards for contribution to the school community, all while my grades suffer and I continue to get sub-par marks on my transcript.
The transcript, however, is what's most important when finding a job. The majority of legal employers do want people who can say they're interested in some charitable work, but of course grades matter more. So all the legal related work experiences I've gotten have been volunteer positions (inability to find paid work due to aforementioned poor grades). And guess what? I've hated that too, although I must have faked it well enough 'cause the lawyers I've worked with/for always say what a good lawyer I'll make, and how "we need" lawyers like me.
I do plan to finish school and get called to the bar. This whole process will take ZZ more years, because Canadians have to article. This means I will graduate in XXXX, and be called in YYYY.
I'm staying in law school only because I've promised my very loving and supportive partner that I will stick it out and get the degree. Also, because I just want to work to pay off my debt over time. I'm still hoping the degree and being able to say that I'm a lawyer will be somewhat useful in finding a job-- any job! But I don't really see myself enjoying the practice of law, even if somebody did hire me in an actual legal job for actual money (which seems ridiculously unlikely with my grades).
My question is: given all of this, should I seriously be thinking about transitioning away from law at this point, or should I stick it out, do my best to get better grades next year and some kind of law job (any legal job) that will help me pay off my debt?
I'm going to be about 130K in the hole after this whole process, and my biggest priority is paying this off-- this includes 26K of undergrad debt, law school for 3 years (high tuition + living expenses), estimated fees to graduate/take the bar exams/be called, etc. I did not get any financial support from my parents whatsoever; they are lovely people who are incredibly emotionally supportive, and they let me live at home during undergrad, but they are poor.
I am tied to remaining in Ontario (the Toronto area), and there are no debt forgiveness programs available to me.
Any advice from lawyers, former lawyers, other law students, or people who have or had crippling amounts of student loan debt would be highly appreciated.
This post was deleted for the following reason: Poster's request -- Eyebrows McGee
"Don't throw good money after bad" is always good advice.
posted by empath at 9:00 PM on April 9, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by empath at 9:00 PM on April 9, 2013 [3 favorites]
I have a friend with a law degree who has been called to the bar, and now works as a (well-paid) manager in government. It's not directly related to her degree, but her degree has sure helped. In fact, I know another senior civil servant with a law degree.
Actually, the CEO who hired me once has a laws degree. He's spent most of his career as a CFO, or doing strategy and setting up deals.
posted by KokuRyu at 9:01 PM on April 9, 2013 [3 favorites]
Actually, the CEO who hired me once has a laws degree. He's spent most of his career as a CFO, or doing strategy and setting up deals.
posted by KokuRyu at 9:01 PM on April 9, 2013 [3 favorites]
I've met several people that have gone to law school but not called to the bar (by choice - not sure if they articled). So I would stick it out for one more year and talk to the career councillor about alternatives. You know there is a shortage of articling placements, yes? It doesn't pay as well as corporate law but there are a lot of non-profits/labour organizations that need people with legal training but can't afford lawyers...something to explore?
posted by saucysault at 9:09 PM on April 9, 2013
posted by saucysault at 9:09 PM on April 9, 2013
You're only halfway there. You should be thinking about quitting law school, not just the profession!
Look, there are lots of ways to practice law. There are even more ways not to be a lawyer. There's no way to know what you're going to enjoy, but law doesn't seem likely at this point.
If you finish school, I think, you should give law a shot. Why not? But I don't think you should finish school.
posted by J. Wilson at 9:33 PM on April 9, 2013 [1 favorite]
Look, there are lots of ways to practice law. There are even more ways not to be a lawyer. There's no way to know what you're going to enjoy, but law doesn't seem likely at this point.
If you finish school, I think, you should give law a shot. Why not? But I don't think you should finish school.
posted by J. Wilson at 9:33 PM on April 9, 2013 [1 favorite]
Yes, sunk cost fallacy: You can't get back the money/time/effort you already spent. Think about whether the benefit of the degree is actually worth the money/time/effort of what you have left, because that's all you can control from here forward.
I left with one semester to go because just that one semester was too much to pay for a degree I didn't want. Law school killed my faith in the rule of law, period, and especially in the legal profession, and there was no point in my shelling out more money and time and stress just because other people would look at me funny for not. Best decision I ever made. Won't necessarily be the same as your best decision, obviously.
Your very loving and supportive partner, if very loving and supportive, should not hold you to a promise made to pursue a course of action that may not be in your best interest financially or emotionally.
posted by Sequence at 10:16 PM on April 9, 2013 [2 favorites]
I left with one semester to go because just that one semester was too much to pay for a degree I didn't want. Law school killed my faith in the rule of law, period, and especially in the legal profession, and there was no point in my shelling out more money and time and stress just because other people would look at me funny for not. Best decision I ever made. Won't necessarily be the same as your best decision, obviously.
Your very loving and supportive partner, if very loving and supportive, should not hold you to a promise made to pursue a course of action that may not be in your best interest financially or emotionally.
posted by Sequence at 10:16 PM on April 9, 2013 [2 favorites]
Best answer: I think you should try to finish. The bulk of the expenses associated with law school are, well, law school and not articling, since pretty much any articling job you can find should pay a living wage. So you've already paid the majority of the cost associated with the degree. Even if you never practice - and it sounds like that's not for you - a JD is still a well-regarded thing to have. And if the job market isn't great for lawyers right now, it sounds like you know from your own experience it's a hell of a lot worse for BAs - I'm a fellow humanities grad who was also pretty badly underemployed before I went to law school. A JD can and should help you start on whatever career path you actually want to pursue.
Right now, you're looking at pretty much the same job prospects as you had before law school, plus having to manage the added debt of the last two years. Stick it out if you can, then use the degree for something other than practicing law.
posted by ZaphodB at 10:20 PM on April 9, 2013 [3 favorites]
Right now, you're looking at pretty much the same job prospects as you had before law school, plus having to manage the added debt of the last two years. Stick it out if you can, then use the degree for something other than practicing law.
posted by ZaphodB at 10:20 PM on April 9, 2013 [3 favorites]
Best answer: I'm not so sure it's a fallacy. Law school might be the wrong place for you now, and definitely do something about your emotional health, but with an LLM you'd have a zillion times more cred/be much better placed (in terms of employer perceptions, and probably, skills too) to do things in e.g., high-level fundraising (anything involving negotiating), campaigning, or research than without it. Perfect background for formal politics. If you wanted to chuck everything and become a professional spelunker or write a book, you could probably support yourself entirely proofing contracts part-time. It would just give you so many more options than having finished 2/3rds of the degree. I don't want to freak you out, but it is really hard right now for people without an edge. An LLM is a definite edge, in dozens and dozens of fields, outside the law.
posted by nelljie at 12:20 AM on April 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by nelljie at 12:20 AM on April 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
Whoops, LLB, obviously! No need to get the other one that I can see.
posted by nelljie at 1:01 AM on April 10, 2013
posted by nelljie at 1:01 AM on April 10, 2013
US lawyer here. Honestly, if you don't like law school, don't like lawyering, have a C average on a B curve, and are going out of pocket for law school, I really don't think you should continue your studies. There's just no reason to take on more debt for this.
posted by Admiral Haddock at 2:01 AM on April 10, 2013
posted by Admiral Haddock at 2:01 AM on April 10, 2013
See if you can take a sabbatical from school after completing your 2nd year. Then look into a firm called Teach Away. They do placements for the government of Abu Dhabi and Dubai and a lot of other places around the world.
They're in Toronto (convenient!) and they can help you get what you need to teach abroad. You get housing and a pretty great salary for doing so!
I checked it out and they're really nice.
This can get you back on track to being a teacher, it will bring in a metric shit-ton of money (compared with other teaching jobs) and you get to have an adventure!
You can do this for a two-year term, and then, at that time, re-visit law school. If you love teaching then done, you're out of law school, and that's it. If you find out it's not for you, no harm no foul, back to Law School you go after your sabbatical.
You haven't thrown anything away, and you get to check out other options.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 5:55 AM on April 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
They're in Toronto (convenient!) and they can help you get what you need to teach abroad. You get housing and a pretty great salary for doing so!
I checked it out and they're really nice.
This can get you back on track to being a teacher, it will bring in a metric shit-ton of money (compared with other teaching jobs) and you get to have an adventure!
You can do this for a two-year term, and then, at that time, re-visit law school. If you love teaching then done, you're out of law school, and that's it. If you find out it's not for you, no harm no foul, back to Law School you go after your sabbatical.
You haven't thrown anything away, and you get to check out other options.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 5:55 AM on April 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
My understanding of the legal job market in Canada is that it's a lot like the legal job market in the US: terrible. Colorado lawprof Paul Campos just wrote a great little book, Don't Go to Law School (Unless) that has a chapter called "Knowing When to Quit." I'd highly recommend picking it up and reading that chapter; basically, Campos advises cutting your losses if you realize you don't want to practice law.
The idea that a law degree is "versatile" and "makes you a better candidate for lots of non-legal jobs" is a myth for several reasons. First, most non-legal jobs that you can get with a law degree, you also could have gotten without the law degree, or after having quit school partway through. Second, having a law degree can often cost you non-legal job opportunities, because employers think you're going to quit as soon as you find a legal job or that you must be really stupid because you couldn't get one of the zillions of high-paying legal jobs that most non-lawyers think are out there waiting for you after graduation. Third, your "think like a lawyer" skills don't train you to do anything (including, by the way, actually be a lawyer), and will be largely useless after graduation. Anyone just out of school is going to need to be trained. In two years, you can either have two more years of training in a profession you don't want to be in, and then have to start from square one in your new profession, or you can potentially have two years of training in your new profession, allowing you to command a better position and a higher salary at that time.
If I were you, and I knew I didn't want to be a lawyer, I'd start right now looking for jobs outside of the law. Start applying and interviewing for anything that looks interesting. If you get a new job between now and August, drop out of school and take that job. If you don't, reevaluate at the end of the summer.
Best of luck to you!
posted by decathecting at 7:52 AM on April 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
The idea that a law degree is "versatile" and "makes you a better candidate for lots of non-legal jobs" is a myth for several reasons. First, most non-legal jobs that you can get with a law degree, you also could have gotten without the law degree, or after having quit school partway through. Second, having a law degree can often cost you non-legal job opportunities, because employers think you're going to quit as soon as you find a legal job or that you must be really stupid because you couldn't get one of the zillions of high-paying legal jobs that most non-lawyers think are out there waiting for you after graduation. Third, your "think like a lawyer" skills don't train you to do anything (including, by the way, actually be a lawyer), and will be largely useless after graduation. Anyone just out of school is going to need to be trained. In two years, you can either have two more years of training in a profession you don't want to be in, and then have to start from square one in your new profession, or you can potentially have two years of training in your new profession, allowing you to command a better position and a higher salary at that time.
If I were you, and I knew I didn't want to be a lawyer, I'd start right now looking for jobs outside of the law. Start applying and interviewing for anything that looks interesting. If you get a new job between now and August, drop out of school and take that job. If you don't, reevaluate at the end of the summer.
Best of luck to you!
posted by decathecting at 7:52 AM on April 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
I have a friend with a law degree who has been called to the bar, and now works as a (well-paid) manager in government. It's not directly related to her degree, but her degree has sure helped. In fact, I know another senior civil servant with a law degree.
Lawyers are fairly rare in government management track, IME. Post-graduate degrees are common, but law isn't. Most would have an MBA or Master's in a subject area. Economics is probably one of the most common choices, but there are many with humanities and STEM degrees too.
I don't doubt that a law degree would help someone in the service, but given spicytunaroll's situation, if that's what they want, I'd consider ditching law school and doing a two year Master's instead. It would be much, much cheaper.
posted by bonehead at 8:30 AM on April 10, 2013
Lawyers are fairly rare in government management track, IME. Post-graduate degrees are common, but law isn't. Most would have an MBA or Master's in a subject area. Economics is probably one of the most common choices, but there are many with humanities and STEM degrees too.
I don't doubt that a law degree would help someone in the service, but given spicytunaroll's situation, if that's what they want, I'd consider ditching law school and doing a two year Master's instead. It would be much, much cheaper.
posted by bonehead at 8:30 AM on April 10, 2013
Well, the sunk cost fallacy is a fallacy--I didn't mean to say, to clarify, that in this case there's necessarily no value in continuing. Just that no matter which way you go, the debt you have today is the debt you have, period. No decision will change that. You have to evaluate whether the additional two years, $30k+ in additional loans, stress, etc, are worth the benefit of having a law degree versus not. The answer might very well be yes, it's just not yes because you already accumulated $90k in student loans. $30k to potentially get even a non-law job that suits you well and lets you pay off those loans? If you can find that path, keep on it. $30k to end up still miserable and/or unemployed (or unemployable) in anything related to the profession? I wouldn't pay that.
But everybody's got to figure out that path for themselves. I didn't even have $30k left, but I find that I'm actually quite happy in a state of genteel poverty--as long as I have my independence and don't feel like I'm subsuming my principles, both things that I felt I couldn't continue without sacrificing. I get lots of askance looks for having done what I did, and I still don't have a solid path, but I like the position I'm in, now. The emotional and financial cost of going on was not worth the slight advantage. Someone who wanted to go into government or politics might have come out differently on that.
posted by Sequence at 9:36 AM on April 10, 2013
But everybody's got to figure out that path for themselves. I didn't even have $30k left, but I find that I'm actually quite happy in a state of genteel poverty--as long as I have my independence and don't feel like I'm subsuming my principles, both things that I felt I couldn't continue without sacrificing. I get lots of askance looks for having done what I did, and I still don't have a solid path, but I like the position I'm in, now. The emotional and financial cost of going on was not worth the slight advantage. Someone who wanted to go into government or politics might have come out differently on that.
posted by Sequence at 9:36 AM on April 10, 2013
This thread is closed to new comments.
Look, you don't like the law. Committing yourself to it, and its accompanying debt burden, is completely nuts. You told your partner you will "stick it out"--have you talked to them about how unhappy you are? I can't imagine a loving SO would want you to continue with something you can't see yourself doing. It's too much time and too much money ($130K!! Highway robbery!). Please, please don't do this to yourself.
I don't know what employment for lawyers is like in Canada (hopefully others will comment on that). If it's anything like the US, there's going to be stiff competition for jobs, and you'll be up against people who actually WANT to do the work.
Did you do your undergrad in the Toronto area? If so, is there a job counseling office there that you can use? It would be really worthwhile to sit down with someone and figure out what it is you really want to be when you grow up. And if you don't know, that's fine. It took me almost 30 years exactly to figure it out for myself. But while you're figuring it out, don't keep throwing away your time and money on something that you know isn't going to work out.
I wish you all the best. Please feel free to Memail if you have any questions or want to vent. I'm sorry to be so negative, but my vote is to drop it like it's hot.
posted by orrnyereg at 8:49 PM on April 9, 2013 [3 favorites]