Go the f&*% to Sleep - 3 year old Edition

April 9, 2013 7:36 AM

3 year old son (just turned 3 on March 17) is also potty training after we moved into our new house two weeks ago and he will NOT. Go. The. F&@*. To. Sleep. at night without godawful whining, crying or begging to go to the potty.

Before you call CPS, here's the deal - hubby puts him to bed exclusively since hubby declared early on that he cannot handle baby sister (4.5 months) bedtime after a stressful day of work. Who am I to argue with him since I love snuggling baby girl and toddler boy's shrill whining is like nails on my chalkboard? Also, hubby does have a more stressful job than I do with a 1 hour commute each way and I get the luxury of a 5 minute commute (but have the majority of morning and afternoon child duty).

Kiddo usually has lights out at 7:45 - it's been creeping slowly over the past year and I think it's now too late because he then spends the next 30-45 minutes whining/crying/whimpering. He's not in pain, it's not a dark-scary-monsters issue. It's a "I'm convinced there are more interesting things going on when I'm in bed than you are letting on" and he wants to be a part of it. We are not toilet training for nighttime yet - still working on just day, so he's in a super duper overnight diaper and has already had his before bed potty break.

So, this means he's not quiet and sleeping until at least 8:15 or 8:30 and then he's back up by 6am the next morning which means hubby and I have very little unwinding time at night. How do I get him to go to sleep when he gets in bed without the dramatics?

He has a daily nap at daycare and if they are reporting it correctly, it's from about 12:15 to 3. Am I correct in thinking this is too long? Are there other tricks we can use? I'm really trying to avoid bribery since that sets up unrealistic expectations later on.

Help me Hive mind. We just want to watch Game of Thrones in peace.

posted by Leezie to Human Relations (22 answers total)

What are you doing during his 30-45 minute whining/whimpering/crying? Do you go in and try to comfort him and give him attention, or do you just let him cry it out? Not giving the behaviour any attention (aka. reinforcement) is pretty much the only course of action I would think you have. I would expect that if you don't feed in to it and let him fuss on his own without attention it should eventually stop. Hopefully.

OR, maybe he just isn't tired, and that is the problem. Maybe ask the day care to reduce that mega long nap so that when bed time comes he is actually tired. We sometimes encourage our kid literally run laps around the house (he loves it) in the evening to tucker him out a bit.

Also, we gave our kid a flashlight. For the nights when he isn't tired he entertains himself with that for a bit before he falls asleep.
posted by PuppetMcSockerson at 7:44 AM on April 9, 2013 [1 favorite]

I'd ask the daycare to shorten the nap and wake him by 2. Then start bedtime routine and have him in bed and lights out by 7. I'm sure you have all of the white noise, cool room, warm covers things worked out already.

My boy is just shy of 3 and I'm lucky that I can pick him up from daycare around 3. I make sure he plays hard/ runs around until dinner so he gets what we call "the worms out of his butt". After dinner is strictly low key, bedtime routine type stuff.

Good luck! Nothing makes you crazy like a kid who just needs to go to sleep.
posted by PorcineWithMe at 7:46 AM on April 9, 2013 [2 favorites]

I had a lot of success with my son using what I called "The Magical Sleepy Corner".

He'd get a nice routine - I'd play with him a bit, then bath time, get him dressed, and some story time, etc. And then go to bed. If he didn't stay in bed, he could stand in the corner. Sometimes, I would have to stand right there with him and just keep redirecting him to it if he put up a fight.

Eventually he either tires out, or figures out that it is more comfortable to be in his own bed.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 7:47 AM on April 9, 2013 [1 favorite]

Best answer: He's not in pain, it's not a dark-scary-monsters issue.

Oh, yeah it is... you just moved to a whole new house two weeks ago! Kid just needs some adjustment time. I know you like the Daddy only at bedtime, but it may do the kid some good for Mommy to take some turns, too. Find a bedtime routine either parent can do with the kid, and stick with it - he'll eventually come around once he feels more secure about the new house.

Also, taking care of kids is work, just as commuting is. Hubby can take a turn with the baby on occasion.
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:50 AM on April 9, 2013 [5 favorites]

Has he been told "mommy and daddy love you, but this is now our grownup time"?
posted by brujita at 8:06 AM on April 9, 2013

Best answer: Yeah, you just moved! Two weeks may seem like plenty of time for the grown-ups to have adjusted to the new noises and smells, let alone how the floor plan is different, but two weeks is nothing to a kid who has no concept of time.

He needs more time, more cuddles, more reassuring, and possibly a little more mommy time than he's getting right now. He'll adjust, but he needs some help getting there.
posted by cooker girl at 8:13 AM on April 9, 2013 [2 favorites]

Oh, and yes, that nap at daycare seems much, much too long.
posted by cooker girl at 8:14 AM on April 9, 2013 [5 favorites]

A 2h 45m nap?! I guess there's a lot of variation in how much sleep various kids need, but that seem really long to me.
posted by Betelgeuse at 8:34 AM on April 9, 2013 [2 favorites]

I definitely think that 7:45 bedtime with a near three hour nap in the day is way, way too early.

Adjust the nap or the bedtime.
posted by zizzle at 8:35 AM on April 9, 2013 [1 favorite]

Best answer: Yeah, everything is probably still very new to him.

but if it's still going on in a month or so, I'd look at getting his nap time reduced. We had to take away our daughter's nap completely just before she turned three (I didn't want to - I think naps are very important, but...) because if she got *any* length nap she was a Fucking Nightmare at bedtime and didn't get to sleep until like 9.30 or so. So maybe consider that.
posted by gaspode at 8:37 AM on April 9, 2013

Best answer: He's napping way too long and he's probably not tired at bedtime. My almost 4yo is a nightmare to put to sleep when she's had any nap at all. When she skips her nap, she nods off in 5 minutes.

She's not ready to completely forego her naps, but she can go a few days without before it catches up to her.
posted by gnutron at 8:40 AM on April 9, 2013 [1 favorite]

An almost three hour nap is mind-bogglingly long. Yikes. Cut way, way back on that nap and see what happens.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 8:40 AM on April 9, 2013 [5 favorites]

Best answer: Okay, here's the story my mom told about me. I was your toddler, I hated naps and I refused to go to bed. I'd sneak out, hang out in the hall and watch TV in the mirror in the bathroom.

It drove my parents insane.

So one night they let me stay up as long as I wanted. They sat in the living room and read. They didn't pay attention to me, they didn't engage me. Finally, I got bored and went in my room.

My parents had a thing. Little kids were in their room at 7:00 PM at night, no exceptions. We had dinner, bath and a story, then the door closed. We could do whatever in there, but coming out was not an option.

After the evening where I discovered that no, there was no circus, nor were there kittens in the living room after I went to bed, I got over the whole thing and went into my room with no hassle.

Mom would say, "You don't have to go to sleep, but you do have to stay in there."

And that was that. My mom is a pretty scary person, you really don't want to cross her.

Also, I agree, that 3-hour nap is excessive.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 8:54 AM on April 9, 2013 [13 favorites]

Our 2.9 year old son takes about a 2 hour nap at daycare and we do lights out 7:00, with a 5:30-6:00 am wake up the next day. For my kid, a later bedtime doesn't equate sleeping later the next morning, he's just grouchy and tired the next day, but reliably going to bed at 7 seems to really work. It feels pretty early, especially these days now that it's light later in the evening, but he is usually asleep by 7:30. I think I'd go crazy if he was up later than that because adult time at the end of the day is so necessary.

I start the bedtime routine by 6:30 at the latest, sometimes I start it around 6:15 and just do extra stories, the quiet wind down time really helps. Our kiddo is also day trained but not night trained, so I let him have one or two (two max) "gotta go potty" breaks after he's in bed while I'm still in the room, after that I tell him he'll just have to hold it until morning or he can get up by himself and go by himself, he knows where the potty is. We keep a potty in his room for that purpose and he has night pull ups on, so he can theoretically go by himself if he needs to. I usually sit in his room reading my Kindle for about 10-15 minutes after lights out. If he's still awake when I leave he'll ask for me to leave his door open, so I've been doing that and it seems to help him feel less scared. When he's overtired he is definitely way more whiny and fussy and seems to have more energy, I have found that for our kid getting him to bed before he starts to get ramped up is the key.
posted by banjo_and_the_pork at 9:04 AM on April 9, 2013

You may or may not be able to get daycare to change their whole schedule for your kid, but it's worth asking -- just realize that there may be caregivers who don't get any other break to eat, take notes on all the kids, straighten up, and generally recharge for the afternoon round in their 10-hour day full of toddlers.

However, i want to warn you that you may just be running into reality -- 8:30-6 with some amount of afternoon nap sounds like a pretty normal schedule for a 3-4 year old. I feel you on the lack of evening time (especially since our kid often wakes a little before 6 just for fun), but that's just the bummer aspect of kids at this age. (Maybe it will help if you remember when nobody slept at night at all! heh.) It's hard to pair that with the different hours of the new baby, but again, that's what people have to go through; you're not alone. I suspect that Ruthless Bunny's story dates from just a bit later -- once there's no afternoon nap, an earlier bedtime becomes possible again (or if you just luck into a kid who needs more sleep) -- but not every household is going to work that way.

Sorry I don't have a magic wand, but kids under school age are just a nontrivial weight on your energy. Try to find some ways to squeeze more luxury into your short evenings, and/or make sure that you go to bed early on enough of them that you can maintain a sense of humor about things.
posted by acm at 9:05 AM on April 9, 2013 [2 favorites]

This is a division of labor problem. You know how people say that your job is to provide your kid with healthy food, and then what they do with it is their choice (as to not create bigger issues), same is true with bed time. Your job is to maintain a good bedtime routine, make sure he burns enough energy that he's actually tired and what he does when you leave the room is really up to him. We can't make them eat, poop or sleep. All we can do is create environments where doing those things right is ideal to the kid.
posted by Nickel Pickle at 9:14 AM on April 9, 2013 [1 favorite]

His nap time probably isn't too long. I'm a former daycare/preschool teacher and our kids would nap for about that length of time. To me, it sounds like he is having trouble adjusting to the new schedule. Are you involved in any of the sleep time routines? He may be missing you. I'd also suggest giving him a new stuffed animal or posting a picture of you and your husband next to his bed and telling him that when he is having feelings, he should talk to the stuffed animal/picture and you will hear exactly what he said.
posted by emilynoa at 9:15 AM on April 9, 2013

I've got an almost three year old and that schedule sounds about the same as ours, but with more sleeping. She generally takes a 1.5-2.5 hr nap and sleeps from 8:30 to 5:30. When I asked our doctor if she should sleep more, she said that total sleep time should be somewhere between 11 and 13 hours. It sounds like you are getting close to 13 hrs of sleep a day, which would be at the top of the range.
posted by JuliaKM at 10:11 AM on April 9, 2013

I'm surprised no one has mentioned daylight savings time on top of the move. Bedtime has to be moved back in the summer for us because the sun just goes down too late. I don't know about where you are, but here, the sun is just going down at 7:45 right now, and the kids generally aren't in bed until 8:15-8:30, where their bedtime was closer to 7 in the winter.

I feel your pain on the lack of rest, but for me it's just the reality. As others have alluded to, my technique is that I "stop parenting" after bedtime. If she's going to be up and a pain in the butt, I don't engage her much.

Also, by my estimation, that nap is way too long. I know there's variation between children, but I don't think my 9 month old even naps that much during the day, outside of a really lucky one! My [just turned] 3 year old has given up napping at home for the most part- she'll sleep during afternoon drives or put herself down for a short snooze before dinner if she needs it. Sometimes that can push bedtime back a bit, but my limit is 1h.

Mostly we just encourage her to stay in her room, even if it's not sleeping. I don't really care what she's up to in there as long as it's not dangerous and doesn't involve screaming.
posted by sunshinesky at 11:18 AM on April 9, 2013 [1 favorite]

Does he nap that much on the weekends? You have to know your own child but mine completely gave up napping at 2 years 6 months. I know that sounds early but trying to get the nap was difficult and when she did get a nap, it was impossible to go to sleep at night. That said, some of the kids at the preschool I worked at were 5 and still napping so you know best. But I'd try cutting the nap down to a 1 hour nap if a nap is still needed.

The combo of a new house and potty training is tough. If he's in bed and whining, can he just take himself to the potty? Even if it's 20 times, he'll get sick of it. I might try to tell him the "story" of night time: "Kiddo, our night time is not going so smoothly and I want us to have a sweet time at night so here's how our night goes: Every night we do bath time and have lots of fun, dad reads you 2 stories and then finally a kiss goodnight/cuddle from mom. Then it's time for sleep. If you have to go potty, it's okay to get up and go. Then snuggle back in to bed."

Also, my niece and nephew love their turtle nightlight for going to bed. Maybe a little welcome to the new house nightlight would help?
posted by biscuits at 11:45 AM on April 9, 2013

Best answer: We moved when our daughter was 2.5 and it wasn't a big deal at all so I don't think the moving is an issue. It's the nap.

Power through the afternoon without a nap on the weekends and see how it goes. That "up every 5 minutes" and whining thing is exactly what our daughter did when her daycare was still encouraging her to nap in the afternoon. It was tough since they really wanted her to nap so that they would have a break, but I really wanted her to stay up all day so that she'd go to bed at a reasonable hour and stay in bed once she got there. Skip the nap.
posted by otherwordlyglow at 12:05 PM on April 9, 2013 [1 favorite]

The struggles my son has with bedtime....

We have come to an agreement, after much trial and error and gnashing of teeth: Son HAS to stay in his room with the lights off after Routine is tightly kept to (books, teeth brushing, snuggles, tuck in). If Son wants to stay up and read or play he's welcome to, but he must be quiet and in his room. This removes almost all power struggles and gives us quiet adult time; mostly he goes to sleep, and if he stays up late trying to listen to a Hobbit read along and is tired the next day well, them's the life lesson breaks.

If there are fights, he has 3 getting out of bed for potty, drink, extra hug, or whinging trips. After 3 we Lock The Door and he is Trapped Until Dawn. This is a good deterrent for all of our needs, eg he has space for comfort and delay tactics but they are short and have rules.

Note: by "lock" I mean we shut the door all of the way and shout "Colloportus! The door is magically sealed!" He hasn't figured out alomahora and/or reality yet.
posted by blue_and_bronze at 12:21 PM on April 9, 2013 [4 favorites]