Economics Grad school?
March 7, 2013 9:03 AM Subscribe
What are my chances of getting into a decent economics grad program with a math degree with a "meh" GPA (3.2ish), a law degree with a pretty good GPA (3.7+), and a high GRE quantitative score (790)? Also, how much does the prestige (rank) of grad program matter in the economics field?
I've decided that I want to get a PhD in economics after I complete law school (I don't want to be a lawyer, just an economist and an academic). Here are my credentials:
1. If all goes well, I should graduate law school next spring with a pretty decent GPA of at least 3.7. The school itself is not the best, though (ranked in the 50s).
2. I graduated college with a degree math in 2010, but my overall GPA was not terribly great, hovering a little over 3.2. My math grades varied depending on what classes I took, with A's linear algebra, all the calcs, and real analysis, but with B's/C's in the more theoretical classes, like combinatorics and set theory (I was a little out of my league there).
3. Prior to graduating college, I took the GRE and got a 790/560 quantitative/verbal. I sort of want to retake the GRE to get that perfect quantitative score, and probably significantly up my verbal as well.
4. While I technically don't have any formal economics background, I figure my understanding of economics is at least as good as your average college economics graduate (I spend 90% of my free time studying economics at this point).
With the above (especially my middling GPA), I feel that I'm probably out of the running for the top of the top of grad schools (your Chicagos, Harvards, and Yales). But what are my chances of getting into a less awesome, but still probably pretty good program (top 25, the Johns Hopkins and Dukes maybe?). Also, if my ultimate goal is to be an academic, how important is school prestige? Is it worth it to get a PhD from a 2nd-tier, or even lower ranked, school? Any other insights and personal experiences are also greatly appreciated
I've decided that I want to get a PhD in economics after I complete law school (I don't want to be a lawyer, just an economist and an academic). Here are my credentials:
1. If all goes well, I should graduate law school next spring with a pretty decent GPA of at least 3.7. The school itself is not the best, though (ranked in the 50s).
2. I graduated college with a degree math in 2010, but my overall GPA was not terribly great, hovering a little over 3.2. My math grades varied depending on what classes I took, with A's linear algebra, all the calcs, and real analysis, but with B's/C's in the more theoretical classes, like combinatorics and set theory (I was a little out of my league there).
3. Prior to graduating college, I took the GRE and got a 790/560 quantitative/verbal. I sort of want to retake the GRE to get that perfect quantitative score, and probably significantly up my verbal as well.
4. While I technically don't have any formal economics background, I figure my understanding of economics is at least as good as your average college economics graduate (I spend 90% of my free time studying economics at this point).
With the above (especially my middling GPA), I feel that I'm probably out of the running for the top of the top of grad schools (your Chicagos, Harvards, and Yales). But what are my chances of getting into a less awesome, but still probably pretty good program (top 25, the Johns Hopkins and Dukes maybe?). Also, if my ultimate goal is to be an academic, how important is school prestige? Is it worth it to get a PhD from a 2nd-tier, or even lower ranked, school? Any other insights and personal experiences are also greatly appreciated
Also, if my ultimate goal is to be an academic, how important is school prestige? Is it worth it to get a PhD from a 2nd-tier, or even lower ranked, school?
This was an issue under discussion in various economics blogs early last month, in response to this research. I believe the conclusion of the linked paper was that grad-school rank matters quite a bit in job placement, with a large proportion of working faculty in economics being drawn from the same 6-10 top-ranked programs.
posted by Bardolph at 9:26 AM on March 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
This was an issue under discussion in various economics blogs early last month, in response to this research. I believe the conclusion of the linked paper was that grad-school rank matters quite a bit in job placement, with a large proportion of working faculty in economics being drawn from the same 6-10 top-ranked programs.
posted by Bardolph at 9:26 AM on March 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
Also, if my ultimate goal is to be an academic, how important is school prestige?
Very. The rule of thumb is that you teach at a school a tier below the one awarding your PhD so if you're at a tier two school you'll be competing for a tier three or four school or *gasp* a position as an adjunct at a community college.
but with B's/C's in the more theoretical classes, like combinatorics and set theory (I was a little out of my league there).
You should check this book out before you go any further if you had problems with the theoretical coursework - Mas-Colell: Torture Device for Year One Econ Students. Every graduate econ program uses this and you'll either look at and think "wow, I've always wanted to know about the Basic Elements of Non-Cooperative Games" or you'll say "who gives a shit." If it's the latter don't waste your time applying, this will be your life for the first two years of coursework. PhD granting econ graduate programs are very, very, very, very math heavy and you will get eaten alive if you're not ready for that. That you had a 3.2 overall in undergrad as a math major is going to be a giant red flag with all but the bottom tier schools (i.e. programs that need American students).
Is it worth it to get a PhD from a 2nd-tier, or even lower ranked, school?
No, absolutely not if you're goal is to be an academic. I assume that you have law school debts, correct? Imagine that after the five to seven years you spent in graduate school the only academic offer you get is from Frog Balls University in Backwater Hell, Kentucky at $55K a year. Doesn't that sound like fun? You've just missed out on five plus years of wages and watched your debt increase for what you could make right now as a paralegal in DC.
If you're not at a top program (top 25) with a stellar adviser and strong academic recommendations and peer reviewed publications that's what you're probably going to be looking forward to after your defense. Not trying to be negative just advising you of what you can look forward to if you're not at a top program. Most people that started the econ PhD program I left either went to private industry, back to their home countries, or switched to finance after they passed their qualifying exam. The only people that went into academia here in the States wound up at schools where there is little if any hope of doing interesting research.
posted by playertobenamedlater at 9:29 AM on March 7, 2013 [6 favorites]
Very. The rule of thumb is that you teach at a school a tier below the one awarding your PhD so if you're at a tier two school you'll be competing for a tier three or four school or *gasp* a position as an adjunct at a community college.
but with B's/C's in the more theoretical classes, like combinatorics and set theory (I was a little out of my league there).
You should check this book out before you go any further if you had problems with the theoretical coursework - Mas-Colell: Torture Device for Year One Econ Students. Every graduate econ program uses this and you'll either look at and think "wow, I've always wanted to know about the Basic Elements of Non-Cooperative Games" or you'll say "who gives a shit." If it's the latter don't waste your time applying, this will be your life for the first two years of coursework. PhD granting econ graduate programs are very, very, very, very math heavy and you will get eaten alive if you're not ready for that. That you had a 3.2 overall in undergrad as a math major is going to be a giant red flag with all but the bottom tier schools (i.e. programs that need American students).
Is it worth it to get a PhD from a 2nd-tier, or even lower ranked, school?
No, absolutely not if you're goal is to be an academic. I assume that you have law school debts, correct? Imagine that after the five to seven years you spent in graduate school the only academic offer you get is from Frog Balls University in Backwater Hell, Kentucky at $55K a year. Doesn't that sound like fun? You've just missed out on five plus years of wages and watched your debt increase for what you could make right now as a paralegal in DC.
If you're not at a top program (top 25) with a stellar adviser and strong academic recommendations and peer reviewed publications that's what you're probably going to be looking forward to after your defense. Not trying to be negative just advising you of what you can look forward to if you're not at a top program. Most people that started the econ PhD program I left either went to private industry, back to their home countries, or switched to finance after they passed their qualifying exam. The only people that went into academia here in the States wound up at schools where there is little if any hope of doing interesting research.
posted by playertobenamedlater at 9:29 AM on March 7, 2013 [6 favorites]
I think it is a long shot you will get into a program like Duke with a undergrad 3.2 GPA. Where you can get in depends on your undergrad institution, which you don't state. I don't think your law degree is particularly relevant to getting in to a PhD program, unless you, for example, have credible law and economics research ideas and apply to programs strong in this area.
That you have a reasonably strong math background will almost surely get you into lower-ranked PhD programs. Upon graduating from such a program, it is unlikely, though not impossible, that you will land a research job. You should not attend a lower-ranked PhD program if you are not comfortable with the idea of working at a teaching-focused liberal arts college (which is not a bad job, by any means). It is reasonable that you could earn a 9-month salary of about $75,000 at such a place, after 4-5 years of grad school. Your ambition and ability will be the main determinants of how easy it is for you to get a desirable job, with the caveat that the range of available jobs is almost entirely determined by your grad school. The upper bound on the range of jobs coming out of a mediocre grad program just barely overlaps with the set of research jobs.
posted by deadweightloss at 9:34 AM on March 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
That you have a reasonably strong math background will almost surely get you into lower-ranked PhD programs. Upon graduating from such a program, it is unlikely, though not impossible, that you will land a research job. You should not attend a lower-ranked PhD program if you are not comfortable with the idea of working at a teaching-focused liberal arts college (which is not a bad job, by any means). It is reasonable that you could earn a 9-month salary of about $75,000 at such a place, after 4-5 years of grad school. Your ambition and ability will be the main determinants of how easy it is for you to get a desirable job, with the caveat that the range of available jobs is almost entirely determined by your grad school. The upper bound on the range of jobs coming out of a mediocre grad program just barely overlaps with the set of research jobs.
posted by deadweightloss at 9:34 AM on March 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
Is your goal to be a legal academic or an economics academic? Either way, prestige matters a ton, but the prestige of the school that is actually in your field will matter even more than the prestige of your degree in the other field. In other words, if you went to a law school outside of the top 20, your chances of getting a job in legal academia are close to zero even if you get a PhD in another field from Harvard. If your law school is in the top 3, your chances of getting a legal academic job are about 10%. Those are the actual numbers, and they include people with PhDs in other fields with some impressive credentials.
posted by decathecting at 9:55 AM on March 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by decathecting at 9:55 AM on March 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
My cousin went to a highly ranked college for undergrad, had a great GPA, and spent two years working in the field doing research. His GREs were very high. He got into a Top-20 program, but has doubts about his future as an academic and is looking into moving into the private sector after he gets his PhD.
In short: Your prospects don't look so hot from where I sit.
I see this a lot of Metafilter - people racking up degrees without seriously considering what the degree is worth or what they want to do with it. Why are you bothering with law school if you don't want to be a lawyer? Why do you want to stay in academia? If you graduated college in 2010, that means that you haven't spent any time as a working adult who is not in school. I suggest you give it a shot and really think about what you're good at and what you want to do and what you can realistically do to make a living.
posted by ablazingsaddle at 9:58 AM on March 7, 2013 [10 favorites]
In short: Your prospects don't look so hot from where I sit.
I see this a lot of Metafilter - people racking up degrees without seriously considering what the degree is worth or what they want to do with it. Why are you bothering with law school if you don't want to be a lawyer? Why do you want to stay in academia? If you graduated college in 2010, that means that you haven't spent any time as a working adult who is not in school. I suggest you give it a shot and really think about what you're good at and what you want to do and what you can realistically do to make a living.
posted by ablazingsaddle at 9:58 AM on March 7, 2013 [10 favorites]
If you are independently wealthy and have nothing but money and time, then go wherever and teach wherever.
But if you currently have debt, abondon ship! Find a job and start paying it down. You can always have Economics as a hobby.
Sometimes money and time do dictate our path in life. Staying in school forever may not be an option for you.
To continue with the ship metaphor, the Economics ship sailed with your 3.2 in Math grades.
Economics is one of the most demanding and competitive majors out there, and nearly everyone who goes into it at the graduate level has perfect test scores and perfect grades.
Is there anything else that interests you?
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 10:02 AM on March 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
But if you currently have debt, abondon ship! Find a job and start paying it down. You can always have Economics as a hobby.
Sometimes money and time do dictate our path in life. Staying in school forever may not be an option for you.
To continue with the ship metaphor, the Economics ship sailed with your 3.2 in Math grades.
Economics is one of the most demanding and competitive majors out there, and nearly everyone who goes into it at the graduate level has perfect test scores and perfect grades.
Is there anything else that interests you?
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 10:02 AM on March 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
Everything I've read suggests that you have very little chance of getting into a tier 2 program with that background, and very little chance of landing an academic job with a below tier 2 program.
posted by Perplexity at 10:06 AM on March 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Perplexity at 10:06 AM on March 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
@ablazingsaddle: I see this a lot of Metafilter - people racking up degrees without seriously considering what the degree is worth or what they want to do with it. Why are you bothering with law school if you don't want to be a lawyer? Why do you want to stay in academia? If you graduated college in 2010, that means that you haven't spent any time as a working adult who is not in school. I suggest you give it a shot and really think about what you're good at and what you want to do and what you can realistically do to make a living.
This times a million. Don't just collect degrees for the sake of adding more letters after your name. I used to work at a major national nonprofit where I helped run a fellowship/internship program. We frequently received resumes from PhDs, JDs, MPPs, MPAs, all manner of MAs, etc. If I got a resume from an applicant who had never not been in school, I would pass.
Also, you're asking the wrong question in my opinion. You're asking if you could get in. I think you need to be asking whether you could get funding. And if you're not sure whether you'll get in, you will probably not get funding.
What is the field like for economics PhDs? What would you do on a daily basis as an academic/economist? Where do you see yourself working? Have you seen specific jobs that have interested you that require a PhD in economics? How did people who have the kind of job you want get that job? Have you ever taken any class in economics? What would you specialize in? What would you write your thesis about? I think you need to be able to answer these questions before you pursue this any further.
posted by kat518 at 10:39 AM on March 7, 2013 [4 favorites]
This times a million. Don't just collect degrees for the sake of adding more letters after your name. I used to work at a major national nonprofit where I helped run a fellowship/internship program. We frequently received resumes from PhDs, JDs, MPPs, MPAs, all manner of MAs, etc. If I got a resume from an applicant who had never not been in school, I would pass.
Also, you're asking the wrong question in my opinion. You're asking if you could get in. I think you need to be asking whether you could get funding. And if you're not sure whether you'll get in, you will probably not get funding.
What is the field like for economics PhDs? What would you do on a daily basis as an academic/economist? Where do you see yourself working? Have you seen specific jobs that have interested you that require a PhD in economics? How did people who have the kind of job you want get that job? Have you ever taken any class in economics? What would you specialize in? What would you write your thesis about? I think you need to be able to answer these questions before you pursue this any further.
posted by kat518 at 10:39 AM on March 7, 2013 [4 favorites]
Greg Mankiw has some advice for aspiring students on his blog; see also some of the other items under "Advice for Students" column.
If you're undeterred by the advice, perhaps target your job search towards areas that would let you work with economists - legal economic consulting, policy analysis, etc. You'd get a better sense of what kind of work you want to do and have a chance to impress people whose recommendations might help you get into a better school.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 10:55 AM on March 7, 2013
If you're undeterred by the advice, perhaps target your job search towards areas that would let you work with economists - legal economic consulting, policy analysis, etc. You'd get a better sense of what kind of work you want to do and have a chance to impress people whose recommendations might help you get into a better school.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 10:55 AM on March 7, 2013
I'm not sure how the market is for Economics, but if it is anything like in my field (English literature), are job prospects are EXTREMELY bleak even if you go to a stellar program, have recommendations from big names, and multiple publications. I would recommend browsing through the discussions on the Academic Jobs Wiki for more specific info.
posted by Saxon Kane at 7:53 PM on March 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Saxon Kane at 7:53 PM on March 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
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If I remember correctly, a 790 quantitative GRE is somewhere on the lower end of the 9th decile, so not entirely stellar.
posted by Nomyte at 9:17 AM on March 7, 2013 [1 favorite]