We're both subs (dumb label though it may be)
February 17, 2013 5:21 PM Subscribe
How do I persuade my long-term partner to do what I need about half the time? He is not, I repeat not, a good American progressive who's been through therapy. He loves me and wants to satisfy me, but is not a willing participant in the "hey, let's have an open discussion" approach. What are some alternative tactics?
This is an old story. But bear with me.
I have been in a loving relationship for many years. I'm a woman. He was my first. I got a late start. He had been in other brief relationships, but this his first LTR.
We have always enjoyed sex. I am optimistic that sex can, eventually, be a highlight of our relationship once again. I say "once again" because in the beginning neither of us had any idea what, in particular, we liked. We liked everything.
First I'll tell you the scenario. THEN I'll tell you why "just talk to him" is not quite the thing.
If it were up to him, I would get on top every single time, let's say 4-5 nights out of 7. For variety, in his ideal scenario, we would sometimes do it sideways. He enjoys, for example, water sports, but does not need to be hurt or degraded. All of the equipment works well.
I know that nothing in life is 50-50. But for lack of a better way to phrase it, I am happy to do anything he wants about half the time. The rest of the time I want him to reciprocate. I don't have many regrets about our relationship. Obviously I knew, before we started, that some people don't like to dominate. But I tell you, if I had known that I'd have to beg, I mean beg, not in the fun way, for the missionary freaking position, I would have given this more thought.
My needs are not that outrageous. For example, I like to be hit, but hard. He doesn't even have to use a household item. His hand is all right with me. In PRACTICE he will do this. For example, one example of reasonable compromise is reverse cowgirl, dildo in my ass, him whacking me. I'm still on top, so it works for him. I don't need him to deploy 1000 implements of sex. I just need him to give it to me. There are many other things I might WANT. But we are talking need.
Another example. He ALSO enjoys doggy style. But it's a major event by us. A special occasion.
Yes. He is kind of lazy. But even when he makes an effort, all this still applies. Some people don't like getting on top. He's allowed not to like it.
He knows what I like because he's made me come many, many times. A FEW SHORT WEEKS AGO, for God's sake, I actually experienced the fabled female ejaculation. And this at a time when things are not going well in bed! We know how to do it. But "baby, that was fantastic, and I really, really need you to do exactly that more often, I need you to be more aggressive in bed, I am telling you, I need it desperately, it is a basic human need, do it for me, I do whatever you want" is not working.
He enjoys watching porn. But he thinks that feats of porn are, well, for porn actors. Like, you show him a movie with a regular hetero couple and the woman tied up, he says, cool, that's all right for them.
I ask him what HE wants. He says he likes it already.
He is not from the U.S. His first language is not English. He is from a very traditional culture. His parents grew up in little towns without electricity. He is way over 30. He has rejected the sexual taboos of his upbringing. But he's not going to sit and read The Loving Dominant. He is not going to say, "Gosh, anon, even though I like to submit, too, I understand that this is a fundamental need of yours, and so I, too, will try to broaden my role in bed." He is not going to counseling. He is not a good ol' boy from, for example, Nebraska, but he might as well be.
After a year, sure, I might have broken up even though we love each other, but after X many years, I don't want to leave over this. "Opening things up" is totally out of the question here.
I could really use some advice from women who have been there. Better yet, from men of simple tastes who have come to a different understanding of themselves over time. I appreciate any and all thoughts and answers, but it would be most helpful to hear from people who can more or less identify with, or recognize, a traditional mindset, whatever that may mean in your case. In other words: not giving a fuck about Hot Monogamy does not mean he's doomed to be a bad lover.
Throwaway email: annoyedwoman@yahoo.com.
Thank you!
This is an old story. But bear with me.
I have been in a loving relationship for many years. I'm a woman. He was my first. I got a late start. He had been in other brief relationships, but this his first LTR.
We have always enjoyed sex. I am optimistic that sex can, eventually, be a highlight of our relationship once again. I say "once again" because in the beginning neither of us had any idea what, in particular, we liked. We liked everything.
First I'll tell you the scenario. THEN I'll tell you why "just talk to him" is not quite the thing.
If it were up to him, I would get on top every single time, let's say 4-5 nights out of 7. For variety, in his ideal scenario, we would sometimes do it sideways. He enjoys, for example, water sports, but does not need to be hurt or degraded. All of the equipment works well.
I know that nothing in life is 50-50. But for lack of a better way to phrase it, I am happy to do anything he wants about half the time. The rest of the time I want him to reciprocate. I don't have many regrets about our relationship. Obviously I knew, before we started, that some people don't like to dominate. But I tell you, if I had known that I'd have to beg, I mean beg, not in the fun way, for the missionary freaking position, I would have given this more thought.
My needs are not that outrageous. For example, I like to be hit, but hard. He doesn't even have to use a household item. His hand is all right with me. In PRACTICE he will do this. For example, one example of reasonable compromise is reverse cowgirl, dildo in my ass, him whacking me. I'm still on top, so it works for him. I don't need him to deploy 1000 implements of sex. I just need him to give it to me. There are many other things I might WANT. But we are talking need.
Another example. He ALSO enjoys doggy style. But it's a major event by us. A special occasion.
Yes. He is kind of lazy. But even when he makes an effort, all this still applies. Some people don't like getting on top. He's allowed not to like it.
He knows what I like because he's made me come many, many times. A FEW SHORT WEEKS AGO, for God's sake, I actually experienced the fabled female ejaculation. And this at a time when things are not going well in bed! We know how to do it. But "baby, that was fantastic, and I really, really need you to do exactly that more often, I need you to be more aggressive in bed, I am telling you, I need it desperately, it is a basic human need, do it for me, I do whatever you want" is not working.
He enjoys watching porn. But he thinks that feats of porn are, well, for porn actors. Like, you show him a movie with a regular hetero couple and the woman tied up, he says, cool, that's all right for them.
I ask him what HE wants. He says he likes it already.
He is not from the U.S. His first language is not English. He is from a very traditional culture. His parents grew up in little towns without electricity. He is way over 30. He has rejected the sexual taboos of his upbringing. But he's not going to sit and read The Loving Dominant. He is not going to say, "Gosh, anon, even though I like to submit, too, I understand that this is a fundamental need of yours, and so I, too, will try to broaden my role in bed." He is not going to counseling. He is not a good ol' boy from, for example, Nebraska, but he might as well be.
After a year, sure, I might have broken up even though we love each other, but after X many years, I don't want to leave over this. "Opening things up" is totally out of the question here.
I could really use some advice from women who have been there. Better yet, from men of simple tastes who have come to a different understanding of themselves over time. I appreciate any and all thoughts and answers, but it would be most helpful to hear from people who can more or less identify with, or recognize, a traditional mindset, whatever that may mean in your case. In other words: not giving a fuck about Hot Monogamy does not mean he's doomed to be a bad lover.
Throwaway email: annoyedwoman@yahoo.com.
Thank you!
He doesn't sound particularly submissive; he sounds lazy. Having to beg for missionary-style sex is weird and doesn't even particularly fit under the traditions of "a traditional culture."
Frankly, I'd start with the basics. See if he'd be willing to work through the Kama Sutra so you guys can incorporate more sexual positions. Because it sounds like you're putting some major cart before horse here. Work on adding more basic reciprocity and variation in your sex life before you start introducing him whacking you (which is surely more work than doggy style).
(My husband is more vanilla than I am, and fairly traditional, but when we fall into a rut I just tease him and tell him to stop being lazy. Humor is a major component in our sex life, as is open communication. Without that, I wouldn't even know where to start.)
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 5:44 PM on February 17, 2013 [4 favorites]
Frankly, I'd start with the basics. See if he'd be willing to work through the Kama Sutra so you guys can incorporate more sexual positions. Because it sounds like you're putting some major cart before horse here. Work on adding more basic reciprocity and variation in your sex life before you start introducing him whacking you (which is surely more work than doggy style).
(My husband is more vanilla than I am, and fairly traditional, but when we fall into a rut I just tease him and tell him to stop being lazy. Humor is a major component in our sex life, as is open communication. Without that, I wouldn't even know where to start.)
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 5:44 PM on February 17, 2013 [4 favorites]
You are SOL here unless you make it clear that things need to change or it's over. It sounds harsh, but if this is really important to you, you should make it clear. If it's not important to you, fine, go on living the way you are now with nothing changing. But... it sounds like you don't want that. There's no magic way to make him change without having to talk to him about it or doing the work. And it doesn't even seem like it's a problem with him being "shy" about it... you are having much more progressive sex than I am, from the sound of it (ahem dildo up the ass ahem)... He's just selfish, and that's crappy.
posted by two lights above the sea at 5:50 PM on February 17, 2013
posted by two lights above the sea at 5:50 PM on February 17, 2013
Tit for tat? (Er, no pun intended.) You'll do him the way he likes it once he does you the way you like it? And not until then? Since openly asking isn't working, I imagine this will require going on strike for awhile? Ugh. Good luck.
posted by salvia at 5:51 PM on February 17, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by salvia at 5:51 PM on February 17, 2013 [3 favorites]
As a dude, I strongly disagree with rope-rider's point of "classic male entitlement." At least for me, personally, my greatest sexual satisfaction is simply getting my partner heated, and heated, and increasingly heated in bed, so that she loses herself to me. And, typically, I'm open to experimenting, figuring out what works for her, considering how I might enjoy it, and willing to step outside my comfort zone. And, if she's crazy about a certain kink or role-play and I don't totally feel it, it's not such a big deal; I love her, and don't need to enjoy sex every single time (sometimes we just don't enjoy sex that much for no clear reason at all, and neither walks away from it resentful or anxious. It happens).
/defensive derailment
Now,
Have you been able to determine what is it, exactly, that so strongly turns him off about dominating you? Is it that the motion of those positions doesn't feel as good for him? Is he worried about physically hurting you? Does he have trouble wrapping his head around the concept of abusing you without *actually* being abusive, rude or unloving? Maybe if you could pinpoint whatever the individual shades of his discomfort may be, and coax him into reevaluating his attitude toward these things, he could learn to tolerate, if not enjoy, satisfying your needs.
posted by Sine_Agraphia at 5:53 PM on February 17, 2013 [5 favorites]
/defensive derailment
Now,
Have you been able to determine what is it, exactly, that so strongly turns him off about dominating you? Is it that the motion of those positions doesn't feel as good for him? Is he worried about physically hurting you? Does he have trouble wrapping his head around the concept of abusing you without *actually* being abusive, rude or unloving? Maybe if you could pinpoint whatever the individual shades of his discomfort may be, and coax him into reevaluating his attitude toward these things, he could learn to tolerate, if not enjoy, satisfying your needs.
posted by Sine_Agraphia at 5:53 PM on February 17, 2013 [5 favorites]
Have you tried dominating him into dominating you? As in, you take on a role of being really bossy and refusing to participate in/submit to anything except exactly what you want? I almost hate to suggest it, because in the dynamic you've presented, that seems like a sort of crappy ultimatum rather than a hot, hot game. But it could be a hot, hot game.
posted by juliplease at 6:03 PM on February 17, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by juliplease at 6:03 PM on February 17, 2013 [3 favorites]
Here is what I would do...while you are on top get him close a few times without letting him orgasm...when he's super hot and ready...tell him if he doesn't spank your ass hard right now you will get off and go knit and keep knitting until he starts giving you what you need...he's selfish and rude and you let him be...good luck.
posted by gypseefire at 6:10 PM on February 17, 2013 [6 favorites]
posted by gypseefire at 6:10 PM on February 17, 2013 [6 favorites]
Have you been able to determine what is it, exactly, that so strongly turns him off about dominating you?
I think this is a good place to start. One possibility is that he lacks sexual confidence. Maybe that's why he just lays there, because he doesn't feel capable of doing anything else?
Frankly, I'd start with the basics. See if he'd be willing to work through the Kama Sutra so you guys can incorporate more sexual positions
If he lacks confidence, then maybe something like this would help him see that he can do more than nothing and still have it turn out good. Honestly, just getting him used to missionary position on a regular basis would help a lot, so maybe that would be a good place to start. You're clearly very invested in this relationship, so a long term plan would not be out of order.
posted by MrOlenCanter at 6:12 PM on February 17, 2013 [2 favorites]
I think this is a good place to start. One possibility is that he lacks sexual confidence. Maybe that's why he just lays there, because he doesn't feel capable of doing anything else?
Frankly, I'd start with the basics. See if he'd be willing to work through the Kama Sutra so you guys can incorporate more sexual positions
If he lacks confidence, then maybe something like this would help him see that he can do more than nothing and still have it turn out good. Honestly, just getting him used to missionary position on a regular basis would help a lot, so maybe that would be a good place to start. You're clearly very invested in this relationship, so a long term plan would not be out of order.
posted by MrOlenCanter at 6:12 PM on February 17, 2013 [2 favorites]
Maybe he really doesn't want to hit you?
posted by zadcat at 7:15 PM on February 17, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by zadcat at 7:15 PM on February 17, 2013 [1 favorite]
My needs are not that outrageous. For example, I like to be hit, but hard.
There's a big, big gap between missionary and hitting you. I can see why even a not-lazy person might be very uncomfortable with this. Are you sure this isn't the specific issue? And are there some options that don't involve inflicting pain?
If you're just looking for him to be more aggressive... what happens if you do nothing? I don't mean literally nothing, but what if, for example, when you kiss, you back slowly away, so he has to go after you. Would he just stop? Or would he move forward? I'd say wait until he's pretty hot and bothered and, basically, don't facilitate sex. By not being asserting, it might force him to.
If you can hold back, it might push him to be more aggressive.
posted by bluedaisy at 7:19 PM on February 17, 2013 [3 favorites]
There's a big, big gap between missionary and hitting you. I can see why even a not-lazy person might be very uncomfortable with this. Are you sure this isn't the specific issue? And are there some options that don't involve inflicting pain?
If you're just looking for him to be more aggressive... what happens if you do nothing? I don't mean literally nothing, but what if, for example, when you kiss, you back slowly away, so he has to go after you. Would he just stop? Or would he move forward? I'd say wait until he's pretty hot and bothered and, basically, don't facilitate sex. By not being asserting, it might force him to.
If you can hold back, it might push him to be more aggressive.
posted by bluedaisy at 7:19 PM on February 17, 2013 [3 favorites]
You have a sexual incompatibility that your partner is not willing to work on. The questions I would be asking myself are "can I live with this for the rest of my life? Do I want to? Is it really worth it?" I say this because of:
I am happy to do anything he wants about half the time.
If he isn't also willing to meet you half way, refuses to go to counselling, and is content to let you shamefully beg, then you have a really difficult choice to make. One that you eventually will have to make.
I'd have to beg, I mean beg, not in the fun way, for the missionary freaking position
I have a serious problem with this. Let's say, to be charitable, that he isn't lazy but lacks confidence in bed, or is uncomfortable with something you are asking him to do. That still doesn't excuse making your partner shamefully plead.
Warning! Personal Opinion: I would have a very hard time being in a relationship where I had to legitimately beg and plead to get a reasonable need met*, let alone be with a partner who was okay with watching me do so. Not saying that he is a bad guy or anything, just that once your relationship gets to that point, you really need to think about the foundation that your relationship is built on.
*I'm referring to things like the missionary position. The hitting is another matter entirely, and I can see where that would be debatable.
posted by Shouraku at 7:20 PM on February 17, 2013 [3 favorites]
I am happy to do anything he wants about half the time.
If he isn't also willing to meet you half way, refuses to go to counselling, and is content to let you shamefully beg, then you have a really difficult choice to make. One that you eventually will have to make.
I'd have to beg, I mean beg, not in the fun way, for the missionary freaking position
I have a serious problem with this. Let's say, to be charitable, that he isn't lazy but lacks confidence in bed, or is uncomfortable with something you are asking him to do. That still doesn't excuse making your partner shamefully plead.
Warning! Personal Opinion: I would have a very hard time being in a relationship where I had to legitimately beg and plead to get a reasonable need met*, let alone be with a partner who was okay with watching me do so. Not saying that he is a bad guy or anything, just that once your relationship gets to that point, you really need to think about the foundation that your relationship is built on.
*I'm referring to things like the missionary position. The hitting is another matter entirely, and I can see where that would be debatable.
posted by Shouraku at 7:20 PM on February 17, 2013 [3 favorites]
Mod note: From the OP:
Though this is perhaps the dumbest clarification ever, I feel I should add that he WILL in fact hit me, as hard as I want, if I'm on top. The "reasonable compromise" above is just that, something we have actually worked out. If anyone has further examples of that kind of, well, rapprochement, I would appreciate it.posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 7:25 PM on February 17, 2013
To give you an idea, so, we were doing this very thing the other night for perhaps the 20th time. He said, later, "I didn't know you liked to be spanked." God knows I've told him, and I don't mean hinted.
This is part of the reason why I'm pulling my hair out. HE KNOWS HOW TO DO IT. He won't. (It's the joke my HS English teacher used to tell: The masochist says, "Beat me!" The sadist says, "No.")
They say that long-married types have a schedule. I have truly, no joke, thought about announcing, listen, Monday I get on top per usual. Tuesday you get on top. Wed. we rest. Thursday I'll get on top again, but you have to hit me. Has anyone done this successfully?
Attempts in this direction, saying, "if you want to do it sideways, I'd rather not have sex," have, understandably, hurt his feelings. (If you are out to ENFORCE a schedule, you have to be ready to say this.) This is not after one week of doing it sideways. This is after months and years. Please, people, if you ever, early in a relationship, say to yourself, "hey, I wonder if it fits together this way," do yourself a favor and don't try it, if the "way" in question is sideways. It was me who introduced this accursed thing.
Thank you to each and every one of you for your responses. You are making me feel more hopeful.
First I have to say, I hope my response doesn't make you feel hopeless. I think there's totally hope here, but you have a long, hard road ahead.
The reason everyone seems a little frustrated with the no therapy, no reading, and that he's not going to consider things from your point of view, is because those techniques work. And they work well, and they work, and here's the thing, with a minimum amount of difficulty and emotional distress, compared to what's available to you.
So the fact that he's not willing to do any of those makes things a lot, lot harder. I would sit down and evaluate, really evaluate, very honestly over a period of several days, exactly what you want. Now look at it again. How important is it? It it worth upsetting your partner over? (For me the answer might be yes, but that doesn't mean your answer will be yes. Everybody gets to have their own answer on this one.) Is it worth a lot of potentially hurt feelings and a lot of struggle?
Then you need to sit him down and be blunt. "I have asked for X and Y things and I have tried to explain why they are important to me and I feel like you're not listening and not compromising. I am happy to discuss these things with you if you want to have detailed, adult conversations about our sex life. Until then, we will be sticking to this schedule, which divides the time between our needs equally. I will still be a fully consenting, enthusiastic partner at all times whether I am on top or not, but I expect to have my needs treated with equal respect and enthusiasm. Anything less than this or any deviation from this schedule will mean we are not having sex. Unless you are interested in (therapy, books, long detailed discussions where you actually goddamn listen, whatever alternate route), I feel this is the only way to get my needs met halfway. I am an equal partner in this sexual relationship and I deserve equal time."
And then stick to it. He will probably feel hurt, you might feel hurt, you might have a fight, he might guilt-trip you, he might be very understanding but you might feel guilty about it anyway. No matter what happens, remember: this is half your sex life and you get to decide what to do with your half (even if that time is spent in masturbation because your partner will not meet you at the halfway point.)
Oh, and please don't listen to the posters who are saying that his bad behavior or laziness is somehow your fault. I understand that this can be galvanizing from a tough love perspective, but I think that's a hurtful outlook. This is not somehow your fault for not enforcing a magical set of rules; this is the fault of a very complicated pattern of cultural communication hangups, mismatched desires, and yes, quite possibly some laziness or selfishness on the part of your husband.
posted by WidgetAlley at 7:58 PM on February 17, 2013 [3 favorites]
The reason everyone seems a little frustrated with the no therapy, no reading, and that he's not going to consider things from your point of view, is because those techniques work. And they work well, and they work, and here's the thing, with a minimum amount of difficulty and emotional distress, compared to what's available to you.
So the fact that he's not willing to do any of those makes things a lot, lot harder. I would sit down and evaluate, really evaluate, very honestly over a period of several days, exactly what you want. Now look at it again. How important is it? It it worth upsetting your partner over? (For me the answer might be yes, but that doesn't mean your answer will be yes. Everybody gets to have their own answer on this one.) Is it worth a lot of potentially hurt feelings and a lot of struggle?
Then you need to sit him down and be blunt. "I have asked for X and Y things and I have tried to explain why they are important to me and I feel like you're not listening and not compromising. I am happy to discuss these things with you if you want to have detailed, adult conversations about our sex life. Until then, we will be sticking to this schedule, which divides the time between our needs equally. I will still be a fully consenting, enthusiastic partner at all times whether I am on top or not, but I expect to have my needs treated with equal respect and enthusiasm. Anything less than this or any deviation from this schedule will mean we are not having sex. Unless you are interested in (therapy, books, long detailed discussions where you actually goddamn listen, whatever alternate route), I feel this is the only way to get my needs met halfway. I am an equal partner in this sexual relationship and I deserve equal time."
And then stick to it. He will probably feel hurt, you might feel hurt, you might have a fight, he might guilt-trip you, he might be very understanding but you might feel guilty about it anyway. No matter what happens, remember: this is half your sex life and you get to decide what to do with your half (even if that time is spent in masturbation because your partner will not meet you at the halfway point.)
Oh, and please don't listen to the posters who are saying that his bad behavior or laziness is somehow your fault. I understand that this can be galvanizing from a tough love perspective, but I think that's a hurtful outlook. This is not somehow your fault for not enforcing a magical set of rules; this is the fault of a very complicated pattern of cultural communication hangups, mismatched desires, and yes, quite possibly some laziness or selfishness on the part of your husband.
posted by WidgetAlley at 7:58 PM on February 17, 2013 [3 favorites]
Though this is perhaps the dumbest clarification ever, I feel I should add that he WILL in fact hit me, as hard as I want, if I'm on top. The "reasonable compromise" above is just that, something we have actually worked out. If anyone has further examples of that kind of, well, rapprochement, I would appreciate it.
Also, I know you may have been looking specifically for more concrete advice about how to get both of your needs met at the same time (like "hit me while I'm on top!") But the problem with that is that you are the only one digging around to come up with acceptable compromise positions. In that scenario, you are scrambling to find a way to get what you want while still making sure he doesn't have to do anything different. Those types of compromises work in the short-term, but what happens when there's a desire you'd like met (like missionary!) that there isn't really a halfway-point on? Then you're right back to Square 1. Your problem is not lack of creativity, your problem is a repeated pattern of behavior that means your husband is not pulling his weight in terms of doing the emotional, mental, and physical work of sex that is satisfying for both partners.
posted by WidgetAlley at 8:15 PM on February 17, 2013 [2 favorites]
Also, I know you may have been looking specifically for more concrete advice about how to get both of your needs met at the same time (like "hit me while I'm on top!") But the problem with that is that you are the only one digging around to come up with acceptable compromise positions. In that scenario, you are scrambling to find a way to get what you want while still making sure he doesn't have to do anything different. Those types of compromises work in the short-term, but what happens when there's a desire you'd like met (like missionary!) that there isn't really a halfway-point on? Then you're right back to Square 1. Your problem is not lack of creativity, your problem is a repeated pattern of behavior that means your husband is not pulling his weight in terms of doing the emotional, mental, and physical work of sex that is satisfying for both partners.
posted by WidgetAlley at 8:15 PM on February 17, 2013 [2 favorites]
Sideways is a perfectly acceptable position, IMO, and not particularly unusual.
I think part of the problem is that it seems like you're conflating several different desires. Is the probably that you want to be hit or that you want him to be on top? It's not clear to me, particularly since he is hitting you. It sounds like you're having a great deal of fairly kinky sex--with anal play and spanking. But if he's not a dom, and he's not willing or not interested in being one, you can't make him be one.
As for positions, is he very out of shape? I would wonder about health issues if my partner only wanted to have sex laying on his back or side. Maybe you could try wedge shaped sex pillows (nsfw) to make missionary more comfortable for him.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:24 PM on February 17, 2013 [3 favorites]
I think part of the problem is that it seems like you're conflating several different desires. Is the probably that you want to be hit or that you want him to be on top? It's not clear to me, particularly since he is hitting you. It sounds like you're having a great deal of fairly kinky sex--with anal play and spanking. But if he's not a dom, and he's not willing or not interested in being one, you can't make him be one.
As for positions, is he very out of shape? I would wonder about health issues if my partner only wanted to have sex laying on his back or side. Maybe you could try wedge shaped sex pillows (nsfw) to make missionary more comfortable for him.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:24 PM on February 17, 2013 [3 favorites]
It doesn't sound like a dominance and submission issue--it sounds like he's just lazy and maybe a little selfish. You mention that he's rejected some of the social taboos of his upbringing, but from what you've described it sounds a lot like he's only accepting of the things that he likes to do.
You say that when you turn down sideways sex when you're not feeling it, he's hurt. But isn't he doing the same thing to you? Why is his offense/hurt more compelling to you than yours is to him? As others have pointed out, you've ruled out almost all of the options for handling this. But what if you were to start treating him the way he treats you and declining to do the things you're not wild about? And that includes reacting to his hurt feelings and frustrated desires in the same way he reacts to yours.
posted by Colonel_Chappy at 8:59 PM on February 17, 2013 [2 favorites]
You say that when you turn down sideways sex when you're not feeling it, he's hurt. But isn't he doing the same thing to you? Why is his offense/hurt more compelling to you than yours is to him? As others have pointed out, you've ruled out almost all of the options for handling this. But what if you were to start treating him the way he treats you and declining to do the things you're not wild about? And that includes reacting to his hurt feelings and frustrated desires in the same way he reacts to yours.
posted by Colonel_Chappy at 8:59 PM on February 17, 2013 [2 favorites]
"I've told him, and I don't mean hinted"
How about an actual worksheet to fill out? Once both of you have done your homework, maybe a relationship negotiation meeting would help?
via pervocracy.blogspot.com
posted by travelwithcats at 9:06 PM on February 17, 2013 [1 favorite]
How about an actual worksheet to fill out? Once both of you have done your homework, maybe a relationship negotiation meeting would help?
via pervocracy.blogspot.com
posted by travelwithcats at 9:06 PM on February 17, 2013 [1 favorite]
If he is unwilling because he doesn't want to participate in the type of sex that you want, I think he has that right. So, ask him about his willingness. Consent is part of good sex.
Read the Shamu article. Seduce and tease him into the sex you crave.
posted by theora55 at 9:25 PM on February 17, 2013
Read the Shamu article. Seduce and tease him into the sex you crave.
posted by theora55 at 9:25 PM on February 17, 2013
Attempts in this direction, saying, "if you want to do it sideways, I'd rather not have sex," have, understandably, hurt his feelings.
Why are your feelings allowed to be hurt over this issue for long periods of time and his can't be hurt for even an evening?
I'm with rope rider, this really does sound like willful obstinacy driven by entitlement. Given all the options you ruled out, you're going to have to get aggressive and be willing to hurt his feelings in the short term to get your needs met in the long term.
posted by zug at 5:13 AM on February 18, 2013 [2 favorites]
Why are your feelings allowed to be hurt over this issue for long periods of time and his can't be hurt for even an evening?
I'm with rope rider, this really does sound like willful obstinacy driven by entitlement. Given all the options you ruled out, you're going to have to get aggressive and be willing to hurt his feelings in the short term to get your needs met in the long term.
posted by zug at 5:13 AM on February 18, 2013 [2 favorites]
He loves me and wants to satisfy me
Are you sure? Cos he's not satisfying you. You've told him how - not hinted - and it hasn't changed. You sound like you're totally desperate to have your needs met, and he's not doing it.
I may be projecting because I'm having similar issues (though God knows I'd love your problem in that I'm trying to get my SO to realise I need orgasms after a decade of sex, never mind anal and hitting...) but I'm starting to think that society expects us to accept sexual incompatability in a way we don't accept other areas where our partners don't "fit". If you need something you need it, and he's not giving it to you. If your need was for affection and you didn't get it, would you be equally happy to stay?
I read something interesting recently: you shouldn't think "would I be happy in this relationship if X changed?" You should say, "would I be happy in this relationship if it NEVER changed?". Right now it doesn't sound like you would be.
posted by billiebee at 7:18 AM on February 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
Are you sure? Cos he's not satisfying you. You've told him how - not hinted - and it hasn't changed. You sound like you're totally desperate to have your needs met, and he's not doing it.
I may be projecting because I'm having similar issues (though God knows I'd love your problem in that I'm trying to get my SO to realise I need orgasms after a decade of sex, never mind anal and hitting...) but I'm starting to think that society expects us to accept sexual incompatability in a way we don't accept other areas where our partners don't "fit". If you need something you need it, and he's not giving it to you. If your need was for affection and you didn't get it, would you be equally happy to stay?
I read something interesting recently: you shouldn't think "would I be happy in this relationship if X changed?" You should say, "would I be happy in this relationship if it NEVER changed?". Right now it doesn't sound like you would be.
posted by billiebee at 7:18 AM on February 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
"I've told him, and I don't mean hinted"
Are you sure? You said he's not American and his first language isn't English. What culture is he? Are their different communication styles in that culture, based on class or gender, etc? For men in his native culture, is making sure that their female spouse is sexually satisfied a cultural norm?
You also write in generalities, which makes wonder if you're being as explicit as you think. For instance, you write "I just need him to give it to me", yet you're not explicit on what exactly 'it' is. Sure, it's easy to guess, but some people don't get those signals or get confused by them. If fact, based on what you've written, it sounds like you expect him to read your mind on what 'it' is.
Also, it's not really clear that you want to be dominated, based on what you've written. It's comes through, yes, but it's not explicit, it's wrapped under other stuff. For instance, you write that he also likes doggy style, but that it only occurs on special occasions. WHY? Have you asked him why? What does he say in response and how do you respond to that? See how there's several different issues going on here, which may be confusing him and you?
He may also be interpreting two (at least) different signals. You say you need X, but he continues to do Y and you're still having great sex (Or not? You mention the gushing, which occurred during a time when things aren't going well sexually, again there's conflicting messages), so he may be thinking "She thinks she knows what she needs, but I give it to her good every time, so whatever". In short, you may have a selfish dominant on your hands.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:05 AM on February 18, 2013 [2 favorites]
Are you sure? You said he's not American and his first language isn't English. What culture is he? Are their different communication styles in that culture, based on class or gender, etc? For men in his native culture, is making sure that their female spouse is sexually satisfied a cultural norm?
You also write in generalities, which makes wonder if you're being as explicit as you think. For instance, you write "I just need him to give it to me", yet you're not explicit on what exactly 'it' is. Sure, it's easy to guess, but some people don't get those signals or get confused by them. If fact, based on what you've written, it sounds like you expect him to read your mind on what 'it' is.
Also, it's not really clear that you want to be dominated, based on what you've written. It's comes through, yes, but it's not explicit, it's wrapped under other stuff. For instance, you write that he also likes doggy style, but that it only occurs on special occasions. WHY? Have you asked him why? What does he say in response and how do you respond to that? See how there's several different issues going on here, which may be confusing him and you?
He may also be interpreting two (at least) different signals. You say you need X, but he continues to do Y and you're still having great sex (Or not? You mention the gushing, which occurred during a time when things aren't going well sexually, again there's conflicting messages), so he may be thinking "She thinks she knows what she needs, but I give it to her good every time, so whatever". In short, you may have a selfish dominant on your hands.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:05 AM on February 18, 2013 [2 favorites]
I agree with Brandon Blatcher; a lot of this is unclear and confusing. It could be your writing, or your communication, in general.
Maybe try missionary in a less physically strenuous position; he might have a easier time being on top if he can be on top while kneeling or standing.
If you both like doggy style, do it more often. Why aren't you now?
Maybe recognize that some sex acts are not equivalent. I agree with those above that the missionary and hitting issues are not the same issues, at all.
If you won't talk to him about this, then...well, I don't think it's going to work out. But of you won't talk, then you are probably going to have to take charge and guide the sex when it happens.
I don't know. Based on how you've framed this, I don't know what suggestions we can give you.
posted by vivid postcard at 9:40 AM on February 18, 2013
Maybe try missionary in a less physically strenuous position; he might have a easier time being on top if he can be on top while kneeling or standing.
If you both like doggy style, do it more often. Why aren't you now?
Maybe recognize that some sex acts are not equivalent. I agree with those above that the missionary and hitting issues are not the same issues, at all.
If you won't talk to him about this, then...well, I don't think it's going to work out. But of you won't talk, then you are probably going to have to take charge and guide the sex when it happens.
I don't know. Based on how you've framed this, I don't know what suggestions we can give you.
posted by vivid postcard at 9:40 AM on February 18, 2013
I can't get a clear picture of what's going on here, either. Is he reluctant to be on top during intercourse, or is he reluctant to dominate you? Those are very, very different things. It's totally possible to dominate and yet be physically on the bottom during intercourse.
Nothing you've told us shows me that he is submissive. If he were, wouldn't he happily take orders?
He wants to satisfy you, or so you say. He hits you IN PRACTICE (I'm not sure as opposed to what).
I'm not sure I understand what those needs are that you feel so strongly about. Is it all about sexual positions? Since he wants to satisfy you, that shouldn't be so hard. But the only way is to tell him (again?) what you want.
I also don't understand what's so bad about sideways intercourse. Yay, easy access for clitoral stimulation!
Sorry, I guess I'm not helping. There's just so much here that I don't understand. In any case, it seems like you two have a lot of sex.
posted by Too-Ticky at 10:39 AM on February 18, 2013
Nothing you've told us shows me that he is submissive. If he were, wouldn't he happily take orders?
He wants to satisfy you, or so you say. He hits you IN PRACTICE (I'm not sure as opposed to what).
I'm not sure I understand what those needs are that you feel so strongly about. Is it all about sexual positions? Since he wants to satisfy you, that shouldn't be so hard. But the only way is to tell him (again?) what you want.
I also don't understand what's so bad about sideways intercourse. Yay, easy access for clitoral stimulation!
Sorry, I guess I'm not helping. There's just so much here that I don't understand. In any case, it seems like you two have a lot of sex.
posted by Too-Ticky at 10:39 AM on February 18, 2013
Nthing that it's VERY difficult to figure out from your question exactly what you want from your partner, what he wants, and what's incompatible between those two. Performance of kinky sex acts (like hitting)is a different issue from the wider power structure of the encounter (i.e., who's being dominant or submissive), which is also a completely different issue from simple sexual position-- but you seem to be conflating those three, or using them interchangeably, in a way that's ultra confusing. After having read your question twice, I still have no idea whether you're using "being on top" as a euphemism for top-ping, or if you just mean it in a purely geographical sense.
With that said, if all you want is some sort of compromise in the basic frequency of certain sexual events, there are lots of ways to achieve that that don't involve long heartfelt talks. Get him to write out , on index cards, descriptions of his six top scenarios for sexual encounters ("I'm motionless in bed, you ride me for 2 minutes and then we cuddle and watch reruns"), and you do the same; then draw a scenario card at random to set the guidelines next time y'all are feeling horny. Ask him to give you some sexy gift certificates for your preferred acts, and use them judiciously. Designate Friday night as Mama's kinky night, and Sunday as Daddy's vanilla night. Or whatever.
It might also be helpful if youtried to get some sense from him of what parts of your preferred scenarios he objects to, and why (beyond just being from a place where his parents didn't have electricity, not having been through therapy, etc.) There's kind of a tacit assumption running through your post that you're the enlightened one, if he weren't such a selfish troglodyte he'd be GGG about this, and so forth. But as several people have pointed out, some of the stuff you're requesting (hitting, HARD? Eesh) is fairly hardcore. He has the right to not be thrilled about that stuff right out of the box, and particularly if those preferences weren't discussed early in the relationship, it seems pretty normal for it to require a certain amount of talking-through/finessing/negotiating/structuring from you to get him fully on board.
posted by Bardolph at 11:36 AM on February 18, 2013
With that said, if all you want is some sort of compromise in the basic frequency of certain sexual events, there are lots of ways to achieve that that don't involve long heartfelt talks. Get him to write out , on index cards, descriptions of his six top scenarios for sexual encounters ("I'm motionless in bed, you ride me for 2 minutes and then we cuddle and watch reruns"), and you do the same; then draw a scenario card at random to set the guidelines next time y'all are feeling horny. Ask him to give you some sexy gift certificates for your preferred acts, and use them judiciously. Designate Friday night as Mama's kinky night, and Sunday as Daddy's vanilla night. Or whatever.
It might also be helpful if youtried to get some sense from him of what parts of your preferred scenarios he objects to, and why (beyond just being from a place where his parents didn't have electricity, not having been through therapy, etc.) There's kind of a tacit assumption running through your post that you're the enlightened one, if he weren't such a selfish troglodyte he'd be GGG about this, and so forth. But as several people have pointed out, some of the stuff you're requesting (hitting, HARD? Eesh) is fairly hardcore. He has the right to not be thrilled about that stuff right out of the box, and particularly if those preferences weren't discussed early in the relationship, it seems pretty normal for it to require a certain amount of talking-through/finessing/negotiating/structuring from you to get him fully on board.
posted by Bardolph at 11:36 AM on February 18, 2013
Mod note: This is another followup from the asker.
Guys, I'm sorry if I've been unclear. I really appreciate all your thoughts.posted by cortex (staff) at 1:54 PM on February 18, 2013
He is both unwilling to be on top geographically and also unwilling to take control. (Yes, I know the difference...I say it with a smile.)
I feel like the matter of hitting is a red herring. I mentioned it to show that he is, in fact, NOT totally unadventurous, nor is he unwilling to help me out. Hitting is not the main thing for me. If he would voluntarily do missionary once in a while, by God, I could all but forget the whacking.
It's just that the things I want don't come naturally to him.
For example. I get on top. I inform him, "darling, I love you, and so for that reason I am going to do X, Y, and Z, and take notes, babe, because I want you to do the same thing to me tomorrow night. Do you hear me, baby? I want the same thing. You can do it. It's not like we're these huge colossal perverts. Right?"
I do X, Y, and Z. He loves it. (NONE of it is on a par with hitting. We are talking the basics. Like kissing.) I love it too, because I enjoy sex.
The next night comes. Either he just won't do the same to me. Or I have to ask. For every single thing. "OK. Tonight. Please. I'm asking you. Can you please get on top like you said you would? Thank you. Can you kiss me? Thank you. Can you tell me such-and-such? Thank you."
He will do it. On a good night. But it obviously doesn't come naturally.
I think the above commenter's suggestion--say, "OK. Either we can talk about this at length like grownups. Or we can have a schedule. Your choice" is right on.
As for sideways...I have nothing wrong with it...maybe this is a red herring too...but every time we have sex, for MONTHS at a time? It rose to prominence when I told him I just couldn't get on top, geographically, one more time. I was done, not going to do it again for a long time. "Sweetheart, it's not like I have a scorecard here, nor do I want one, but really. Can't you get on top?"
"No. I'm too tired. Let's do it sideways."
And at a certain point, you see it's sideways or nothing, so you throw up your hands and do it.
He's not in bad shape or poor health.
I can dig the notecards, working through the Kama Sutra, etc., but if the basics present a challenge...
Thank you, everyone, for your help.
My partner and I tended towards missionary only for a while but it's starting to lose its flavour, so to speak, because it hurts his left wrist (only the left!) which is sort of weird, but still.
To be honest, with the latest update? He sounds just like an ex of mine who would promise the goddamn fucking world in bed and 'forget' it all immediately after orgasm. Don't talk in bed about this, talk before. Talk in a more straight-forward manner - even in the last update your 'informing' has a whole LOT of non-information type stuff and you aren't filled with confidence either (don't end in a question!).
But seriously, this situation sounds absolutely fucking weird and almost like there has to be a physical reason he does not like the action of being upright while fucking. Maybe a swing/rope/hanging type thing would help?
posted by geek anachronism at 3:54 PM on February 18, 2013
To be honest, with the latest update? He sounds just like an ex of mine who would promise the goddamn fucking world in bed and 'forget' it all immediately after orgasm. Don't talk in bed about this, talk before. Talk in a more straight-forward manner - even in the last update your 'informing' has a whole LOT of non-information type stuff and you aren't filled with confidence either (don't end in a question!).
But seriously, this situation sounds absolutely fucking weird and almost like there has to be a physical reason he does not like the action of being upright while fucking. Maybe a swing/rope/hanging type thing would help?
posted by geek anachronism at 3:54 PM on February 18, 2013
perhaps its because if you remain "on top" any mistakes he may make can't happen so his fear of failure is the issue...or it's a way of being in control...by always wanting you on top...or he's just lazy and selfish.
posted by gypseefire at 10:29 PM on July 30, 2013
posted by gypseefire at 10:29 PM on July 30, 2013
« Older When was the printer Oliveau & Fils graveur in... | Sick and elderly father is not competent, has... Newer »
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by BlahLaLa at 5:35 PM on February 17, 2013 [6 favorites]