Terrier Time Training
February 13, 2013 1:39 PM Subscribe
Is it possible to teach a dog the concept of time, or at least to read a clock?
Well my cats seem to have a sense of time.
At least when noms are involved. Our little-girl Eartha will start bitching at me at around 5:45 about getting her some dinner. (I usually get home at 6 and feed the cats right then).
When we had daylight savings time change, she was an hour early, but then again, she was right on time.
I think our animal's rhythms are tied to the sun, and they instinctively know when it's time to eat or sleep (every hour is nap time).
But it begs the question, if you have nothing scheduled and the day is yours, why do you need to know anything about the time?
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 1:50 PM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
At least when noms are involved. Our little-girl Eartha will start bitching at me at around 5:45 about getting her some dinner. (I usually get home at 6 and feed the cats right then).
When we had daylight savings time change, she was an hour early, but then again, she was right on time.
I think our animal's rhythms are tied to the sun, and they instinctively know when it's time to eat or sleep (every hour is nap time).
But it begs the question, if you have nothing scheduled and the day is yours, why do you need to know anything about the time?
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 1:50 PM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
Maybe this article -- "How do dogs perceive time?" -- might be helpful. What I got from a quick read is that dogs understand time to some degree, but not like we do, and therefore are probably rather disinterested in clocks.
I also want the record to show that I am trying very very very hard not to make a Mr. Peabody joke.
posted by .kobayashi. at 1:54 PM on February 13, 2013 [9 favorites]
I also want the record to show that I am trying very very very hard not to make a Mr. Peabody joke.
posted by .kobayashi. at 1:54 PM on February 13, 2013 [9 favorites]
My dogs definitely know when feeding time is near. If I get up at 6 AM they don't move. If I get up near 8 they rush to the kitchen. The kids feed them, somewhere between 8 and 9, whenever they get up.
In the evening they get fed around 5, which may or may not have any connection to something we are doing. However, every single day the dogs start to get antsy around 4:45 and they start to whine. It gets progressively more annoying until they get fed, and which time we are treated to two beagles baying, in stereo.
posted by COD at 2:00 PM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
In the evening they get fed around 5, which may or may not have any connection to something we are doing. However, every single day the dogs start to get antsy around 4:45 and they start to whine. It gets progressively more annoying until they get fed, and which time we are treated to two beagles baying, in stereo.
posted by COD at 2:00 PM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
My friend has a cat that, without fail, starts staring at him an hour before feeding time and does. not. stop. until he gets fed. Every day, at exactly 7 pm, he perches at eye level and just starts staring. It's cute, but also a bit creepy.
posted by k8lin at 2:08 PM on February 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by k8lin at 2:08 PM on February 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
My dogs have all been time aware in the sense of routine: time to eat, time for bed (they nag ME to go to bed), time to go out ... generally within 15 minutes or less of a set time. Dogs definitely have a sense of time but since they live in the present, they experience time differently than we do.
Can a dog learn to read a clock? If it was adapted to a canine ability, I have no doubt they could ... one with sound effects, or other clues, that could coincide with commands taught. Like, the clock meows, so I (dog) go pull the rope that opens the kitty door. It would of course take appropriate training, but I can see this being doable with the right dog.
posted by batikrose at 2:10 PM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
Can a dog learn to read a clock? If it was adapted to a canine ability, I have no doubt they could ... one with sound effects, or other clues, that could coincide with commands taught. Like, the clock meows, so I (dog) go pull the rope that opens the kitty door. It would of course take appropriate training, but I can see this being doable with the right dog.
posted by batikrose at 2:10 PM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
My dogs do seem to have a sort of sense of time. And I did once have a dog who ran to the back door whenever he heard my laptop click shut, which leads me to believe you could create a sort of time-telling with sounds or maybe light cues.
posted by Lyn Never at 2:16 PM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Lyn Never at 2:16 PM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
Just wanted to add that because I am seldom more than 5 feet away from my current canine friend, I observe him constantly. What I have observed is that his whole world and being is wrapped around me, and his sole occupation seems to be monitoring all the sounds, smells and other signs of "something happening". Because of this monitoring, he knows what is next in a series of subtle prompts.
A few minutes ago I told him we were going for a ride. He is very patiently waiting on the ottoman six inches from my knees, and as soon as I set the keyboard aside and set the mouse on the table, he will sit up and anticipate, because those are the signs we are going for that ride next.
A chihuahua I had some years back rode in the car with me on a five hour drive once a week. At the two same places every time she would sit up and know we were one mile from the rest stop. I don't know what her clues were, but they were there.
What we call telling time, for our pets, is a combination of minute clues that all add up to say "time for food", "time for my person to be home". Animals react to these, which is what I was referencing above when I said a dog could be trained to "read" a canine-oriented clock that had visual or audio prompts.
posted by batikrose at 2:35 PM on February 13, 2013 [4 favorites]
A few minutes ago I told him we were going for a ride. He is very patiently waiting on the ottoman six inches from my knees, and as soon as I set the keyboard aside and set the mouse on the table, he will sit up and anticipate, because those are the signs we are going for that ride next.
A chihuahua I had some years back rode in the car with me on a five hour drive once a week. At the two same places every time she would sit up and know we were one mile from the rest stop. I don't know what her clues were, but they were there.
What we call telling time, for our pets, is a combination of minute clues that all add up to say "time for food", "time for my person to be home". Animals react to these, which is what I was referencing above when I said a dog could be trained to "read" a canine-oriented clock that had visual or audio prompts.
posted by batikrose at 2:35 PM on February 13, 2013 [4 favorites]
My dogs don't care about feeding time. They get fed when I get up and when I (or my wife) get home, and they don't freak out if we're not out of bed at the same time as normal.
One of my dogs, however, absolutely without question has to be taken out at exactly 9:30pm every night, or he might explode (if you ask him). I'm sure he's not looking at a clock, as he's occasionally a minute or two off, but he definitely knows when it's time for his late walk. And it's got nothing to do with my actions. If we're watching a movie and my dog is sitting next to me on the couch, at about 9:25 he'll get off the couch and stand next to the TV, and if I've gotten engrossed in the movie and forgotten about his walk, at 9:30 he'll start jumping and pawing at the air in my direction.
This particular need, however, was taught to him at our old apartment, where dog owners from the building would gather every night around 9:30 in the park next to the building to socialize and let the dogs run around and play. So it's not like he just decided 9:30 was his time or anything.
posted by smoq at 2:39 PM on February 13, 2013
One of my dogs, however, absolutely without question has to be taken out at exactly 9:30pm every night, or he might explode (if you ask him). I'm sure he's not looking at a clock, as he's occasionally a minute or two off, but he definitely knows when it's time for his late walk. And it's got nothing to do with my actions. If we're watching a movie and my dog is sitting next to me on the couch, at about 9:25 he'll get off the couch and stand next to the TV, and if I've gotten engrossed in the movie and forgotten about his walk, at 9:30 he'll start jumping and pawing at the air in my direction.
This particular need, however, was taught to him at our old apartment, where dog owners from the building would gather every night around 9:30 in the park next to the building to socialize and let the dogs run around and play. So it's not like he just decided 9:30 was his time or anything.
posted by smoq at 2:39 PM on February 13, 2013
I think they have a sense of routine more than time. I think doing the same activities at the same time on a regular basis attunes them to our idea of time, if that makes sense.
So, if I were trying to teach a pet when supper was, I'd standardize the activities around supper.
But it sounds like this may be very dependent on the pet involved, based on other answers above.
posted by hilaryjade at 5:42 PM on February 13, 2013
So, if I were trying to teach a pet when supper was, I'd standardize the activities around supper.
But it sounds like this may be very dependent on the pet involved, based on other answers above.
posted by hilaryjade at 5:42 PM on February 13, 2013
Can a dog be taught to read a clock? That is an interesting question. Dog brains process both time and sight differently that what we are used to, but if you understand the underlying physiological structures, you can base training decisions on what will work effectively. Whereas human vision blends multiple consecutive inputs into a smooth uninterrupted motion, the canine brain takes an almost directly opposite approach. Dog vision breaks the sight-stream into discrete, separate "snapshots", like an old-fashioned filmstrip. So an action that takes two seconds-- the human master standing up-- will be processed like this:
1. Human is still
2. Human muscles are tensing up
3. Human puts his hands on his thighs
4. Human pushes down his hands
5. Human grunts and slowly begins to rise up out of the chair
6. Human is halfway up toward standing
7. Human has completed standing up
Where each of these actions is perceived by the dog as a separate still picture. Obviously this example is greatly simplified-- MRI research show us that dogs see dozens (or perhaps hundreds) of discrete "slides" per second. The optic nerves and brain in a domestic canine has been selected for thousands of years to optimize and analyze this information-- comparing consecutive snapshots, noting differences between images to form an idea about what is happening in the world around them. This method of sight is most of what makes (domestic) dogs such excellent readers of human emotion-- they are literally analyzing hundreds of separate data points of facial expression, body language and posture every few seconds to form a complete nonverbal picture of what is going on around them. So in that respect they are definitely using time to think.
On the other hand, dogs don't really recognize the passage of time in the same way that humans do-- they are not conscious of hours or minutes. They mostly just always exist in the present moment, comparing the constantly changing situation to a library of cues built up-- my hunger is increasing, human returned from work, it is dark outside, keys in hand are jingling in the lock = Dinner Time.
So I don't think you would be able to train a dog to read the face of a clock-- not enough information there on a clock, and not changing quickly enough given what we know about how their brains work. I do think, however, that you could get the same effect training them with a stimulus that they can more easily respond to-- an audible alarm for instance. I mean this is the classic Pavlovian experiment-- ring the bell, right?
Of course I could be wrong, maybe you can do it. It's an interesting question, thanks for asking, and good luck with your dog!
posted by seasparrow at 6:27 PM on February 13, 2013 [4 favorites]
1. Human is still
2. Human muscles are tensing up
3. Human puts his hands on his thighs
4. Human pushes down his hands
5. Human grunts and slowly begins to rise up out of the chair
6. Human is halfway up toward standing
7. Human has completed standing up
Where each of these actions is perceived by the dog as a separate still picture. Obviously this example is greatly simplified-- MRI research show us that dogs see dozens (or perhaps hundreds) of discrete "slides" per second. The optic nerves and brain in a domestic canine has been selected for thousands of years to optimize and analyze this information-- comparing consecutive snapshots, noting differences between images to form an idea about what is happening in the world around them. This method of sight is most of what makes (domestic) dogs such excellent readers of human emotion-- they are literally analyzing hundreds of separate data points of facial expression, body language and posture every few seconds to form a complete nonverbal picture of what is going on around them. So in that respect they are definitely using time to think.
On the other hand, dogs don't really recognize the passage of time in the same way that humans do-- they are not conscious of hours or minutes. They mostly just always exist in the present moment, comparing the constantly changing situation to a library of cues built up-- my hunger is increasing, human returned from work, it is dark outside, keys in hand are jingling in the lock = Dinner Time.
So I don't think you would be able to train a dog to read the face of a clock-- not enough information there on a clock, and not changing quickly enough given what we know about how their brains work. I do think, however, that you could get the same effect training them with a stimulus that they can more easily respond to-- an audible alarm for instance. I mean this is the classic Pavlovian experiment-- ring the bell, right?
Of course I could be wrong, maybe you can do it. It's an interesting question, thanks for asking, and good luck with your dog!
posted by seasparrow at 6:27 PM on February 13, 2013 [4 favorites]
Another person adding that while my cat does not know how to read a clock, but she definitely knows when feeding time is and when it is time for bed. In fact, if I am not in or near bed between 9-11pm, she gets very agitated and meows and paces until we head up to bed. Then she promptly curls up at our feet and goes to sleep.
posted by ruhroh at 9:46 PM on February 13, 2013
posted by ruhroh at 9:46 PM on February 13, 2013
Reading a digital clock - no. Reading a regular clock and telling you what time it is - no.
But I bet a dog could be trained to read a clock if you made a clock such that it was specific for a dog. I'm thinking of those huge clocks at the swimming pool that have one huge red hand to track either minutes or seconds. If you made a clock like that, which had a big bright thing on the end of one hand and if you made it so that one hand ended up in the same place every time you want the dog to notice - so if you want the dog to bark every 2 hours, make a clock where one hand makes a single circuit in two hours and train the dog to bark when the big indicator is at the top of the circle. If you want him to bark every 5 minutes, make the hands go around to the top every 5 minutes.
I bet a dog could be trained to notice that something is at the top, and maayybbeee an additional notice if the thing is at the bottom, and maybe a reeeeaaaalllly smart dog could be trained to break that circle into some smaller pieces to alert more often. But it's not really telling time. If you would go to this much trouble to make visual cues, why not just use alarm clocks and give audible cues instead.
posted by CathyG at 3:00 PM on February 14, 2013
But I bet a dog could be trained to read a clock if you made a clock such that it was specific for a dog. I'm thinking of those huge clocks at the swimming pool that have one huge red hand to track either minutes or seconds. If you made a clock like that, which had a big bright thing on the end of one hand and if you made it so that one hand ended up in the same place every time you want the dog to notice - so if you want the dog to bark every 2 hours, make a clock where one hand makes a single circuit in two hours and train the dog to bark when the big indicator is at the top of the circle. If you want him to bark every 5 minutes, make the hands go around to the top every 5 minutes.
I bet a dog could be trained to notice that something is at the top, and maayybbeee an additional notice if the thing is at the bottom, and maybe a reeeeaaaalllly smart dog could be trained to break that circle into some smaller pieces to alert more often. But it's not really telling time. If you would go to this much trouble to make visual cues, why not just use alarm clocks and give audible cues instead.
posted by CathyG at 3:00 PM on February 14, 2013
I think dogs do have a sense of time of day.
My mother used to take our dog to work with her. Most of her day was pretty quiet and consisted of her playing solitaire and getting up at random intervals to help customers. But every day, about 15 minutes before it was time to go, she had to do some last minute tasks, the first of which was to go outside and check the dropbox for anything that had been added. Every day about 20 minutes before it was time to go, the dog would get up from wherever he was sleeping and go stand by the door and wait to go outside with her.
But the reason we feel he had a sense of time of day and not just elapsed time was that in the spring and the fall when the time changed for Daylight Saving Time, he would get that timing wrong. Either he'd end up spending an hour waiting at the door, or he'd be caught off guard when she went out to do the last minute tasks before he was ready. It usually took him about a week to adapt to the new schedule. If he was just knowing when 6 hours had elapsed since they got to work, the time change wouldn't have thrown him off.
It's not that he was reading a clock or even that he could tell time, exactly. But he definitely had a strong sense of when it was time to finish up and go home and it seemed to be somewhat independent of the things going on around him.
What was even more interesting to my mind is that the room in which this took place had no windows. Even when customers came in from outside, they walked through an exterior door and into the lobby, not into the room where the dog spent his time. So there wasn't changing daylight for him to be cuing off of. I spent some time in that building when the power was out, and there was no way to tell 2pm from 2am if you didn't already know roughly what time it was.
posted by jacquilynne at 9:02 PM on February 14, 2013
My mother used to take our dog to work with her. Most of her day was pretty quiet and consisted of her playing solitaire and getting up at random intervals to help customers. But every day, about 15 minutes before it was time to go, she had to do some last minute tasks, the first of which was to go outside and check the dropbox for anything that had been added. Every day about 20 minutes before it was time to go, the dog would get up from wherever he was sleeping and go stand by the door and wait to go outside with her.
But the reason we feel he had a sense of time of day and not just elapsed time was that in the spring and the fall when the time changed for Daylight Saving Time, he would get that timing wrong. Either he'd end up spending an hour waiting at the door, or he'd be caught off guard when she went out to do the last minute tasks before he was ready. It usually took him about a week to adapt to the new schedule. If he was just knowing when 6 hours had elapsed since they got to work, the time change wouldn't have thrown him off.
It's not that he was reading a clock or even that he could tell time, exactly. But he definitely had a strong sense of when it was time to finish up and go home and it seemed to be somewhat independent of the things going on around him.
What was even more interesting to my mind is that the room in which this took place had no windows. Even when customers came in from outside, they walked through an exterior door and into the lobby, not into the room where the dog spent his time. So there wasn't changing daylight for him to be cuing off of. I spent some time in that building when the power was out, and there was no way to tell 2pm from 2am if you didn't already know roughly what time it was.
posted by jacquilynne at 9:02 PM on February 14, 2013
I guess that your tag "intangibleconcepts" is at the heart of the matter. I'm positive that I could train my dog to expect something to happen at a certain time, say 5:00 pm (indeed, this kind of thing happens all the time with no purposeful training at all), and I could also, I think, teach her to observe a particular position on a (large enough) clock and understand that when the big hand is on the 12 and the little hand is on the 5 something will happen. The first is an actual interaction with what we think of as time (an hour of the day, for us), while the second would be reacting to a cue, and not a measure of understanding time. I do not think it's possible to teach a dog our clock version of time in the sense that you could tell your dog, "we'll take a walk at 3 o'clock," (where the time you state is random – X hour out of 12 or 24) and the dog will react to the time they see on the clock and expect a walk at 3.
According to research, dogs are understood to have a similar intelligence to a two-year-old child, so that's a starting point for evaluating what sorts of learning and grasp of concept might be possible.
My dog has concepts of time in the sense that she will expect something to happen at a certain time if this is something we've done. If I take her out at 5 pm three days in a row, on the fourth day she will expect to go out at 5 – and she knows when 5 happens. She has a concept of bedtime; even if I stay up later, she will usually retire to the rug she sleeps on in the bedroom (leaving the pillow she lays on in the living room) around 11 pm. If she wants something, and I tell her "not now; soon!" she will flop down and come back to remind me in 10 or 15 minutes. But if I say "No," she won't bother. This one seems like a fairly pragmatic grasp of the concept: "Okay those noises mean this isn't going to happen now, but it will happen within a relatively short period." That seems fairly sophisticated to me, but it's not an understanding of an intangible concept. I couldn't say "not now; we'll go out at 5:15" and be understood.
posted by taz at 10:22 AM on February 15, 2013
According to research, dogs are understood to have a similar intelligence to a two-year-old child, so that's a starting point for evaluating what sorts of learning and grasp of concept might be possible.
My dog has concepts of time in the sense that she will expect something to happen at a certain time if this is something we've done. If I take her out at 5 pm three days in a row, on the fourth day she will expect to go out at 5 – and she knows when 5 happens. She has a concept of bedtime; even if I stay up later, she will usually retire to the rug she sleeps on in the bedroom (leaving the pillow she lays on in the living room) around 11 pm. If she wants something, and I tell her "not now; soon!" she will flop down and come back to remind me in 10 or 15 minutes. But if I say "No," she won't bother. This one seems like a fairly pragmatic grasp of the concept: "Okay those noises mean this isn't going to happen now, but it will happen within a relatively short period." That seems fairly sophisticated to me, but it's not an understanding of an intangible concept. I couldn't say "not now; we'll go out at 5:15" and be understood.
posted by taz at 10:22 AM on February 15, 2013
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posted by medusa at 1:46 PM on February 13, 2013