Chicken wings--- chinese takeout edition
February 12, 2013 3:31 PM Subscribe
How do you make the stuff? I've been searching for years trying to figure out how to recreate the flavor of the chicken wings that I'd get from the Chinese takeout/delivery place.
I've tried lots of recipes online, but nothing seems to come close to the flavor.. I don't know what is it, but I can't do it. I've tried using Accent and MSG powder and it doesn't work. I've got a wide a selection of spices and easy access to aquire more spices. I also have a deep fryer and a wok for preparation. Ideas?
Response by poster: It's super crispy, savory and really juicy. Slight yellow tinge to the flesh and not heavily battered. It doesn't really remind me of Korean style Fried Chicken. They usually come from the places that serves Americanized Chinese food. When I was growing up in Newark, NJ, you'd see them everywhere. They're the types that you couldn't sit down in b/c there was no seating and it was take out ONLY. There would also be a ridiculously thick piece of bullet proof glass between you and the person taking your order.. We lovingly used to call it "Ghetto Chinese".. Hopefully that'll be helpful.
posted by baconandvodka at 4:03 PM on February 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by baconandvodka at 4:03 PM on February 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
Most of the 'Chinese' chicken wings I've had have been seasoned with Five Spice powder.
posted by Bourbonesque at 4:08 PM on February 12, 2013
posted by Bourbonesque at 4:08 PM on February 12, 2013
The umami that you were trying to recreate with msg powder was probably just fish sauce and sugar. That would also make them a little yellow (as opposed to ingredients like soy, char siu, or hoisin that would be browner, and probably added after frying anyway). Anyway, that's where I would start.
posted by bcwinters at 4:13 PM on February 12, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by bcwinters at 4:13 PM on February 12, 2013 [2 favorites]
Don't underestimate the flavor contribution of old, much-used oil.
posted by OmieWise at 4:19 PM on February 12, 2013 [6 favorites]
posted by OmieWise at 4:19 PM on February 12, 2013 [6 favorites]
Dry corn starch coating with some crushed kosher salt prior to frying.
Also, take fine white pepper and slowly dry roast on a pan. Cool and add to the dry corn starch coat. Add a little onion and/or garlic powder. I'm not a fan of five spice, but a little bit goes a long way.
You can try 3:1 corn starch/white flour if the dry batter is too "hard."
You can also brine the wings overnight to increase juiciness. Wash off well and pat dry (I use a salad spinner to save on towels) prior to the dry corn starch mixture coating. If I brine, I use less kosher salt in the dry batter and don't break it up in a mortar beforehand.
You can also go big and use "grinder" wings.
The fresher the oil, the lighter and more golden the colour and flavour you can achieve.
I think that some styles also include a bit of sugar, but I haven't figured out how much/which stage.
posted by porpoise at 4:44 PM on February 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
Also, take fine white pepper and slowly dry roast on a pan. Cool and add to the dry corn starch coat. Add a little onion and/or garlic powder. I'm not a fan of five spice, but a little bit goes a long way.
You can try 3:1 corn starch/white flour if the dry batter is too "hard."
You can also brine the wings overnight to increase juiciness. Wash off well and pat dry (I use a salad spinner to save on towels) prior to the dry corn starch mixture coating. If I brine, I use less kosher salt in the dry batter and don't break it up in a mortar beforehand.
You can also go big and use "grinder" wings.
The fresher the oil, the lighter and more golden the colour and flavour you can achieve.
I think that some styles also include a bit of sugar, but I haven't figured out how much/which stage.
posted by porpoise at 4:44 PM on February 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
I have to say nothing about this recipe sounds particularly Chinese/Chinese-American, but they are described as "Chinese Takeout Chicken Wings".
posted by O9scar at 5:38 PM on February 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by O9scar at 5:38 PM on February 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
Are you talking about Chinese takeout fried chicken wings from Newark, specifically? If they're the ones I think you mean, they may be NYC-area specific. They were available in Chinese takeouts everywhere in 1980s Brooklyn, and I haven't tasted any like them in other parts of the country. And yes, the places that sold them always had bulletproof glass!
posted by Wordwoman at 6:07 PM on February 12, 2013
posted by Wordwoman at 6:07 PM on February 12, 2013
Response by poster: Yeah.. I'm talking about those.. the one you'd order "Fried hard".. I got them whenever I was in an inner city..
posted by baconandvodka at 6:14 PM on February 12, 2013
posted by baconandvodka at 6:14 PM on February 12, 2013
I know exactly what you are talking about (I'm from New Jersey), and I think the non-intuitive aspect of them is probably five-spice, specifically the star anise.
Sure, you got your MSG, that's giving you some meaty flavor. You got your salt. You got your frying, giving it some tasty Maillard reaction-based flavor compounds. All good stuff. But there's a weird other type of meatiness than comes out in American Chinese food from star anise. NOT so much that it tastes noticeably anise-y, we're not going for Good 'n' Plenty here. Toast up some stars, grind them, add that to your spice mixture. Or just buy a five-spice mix. Actually, that's probably better. You get the numby bits that way too. Cloves and Sichuan pepper are probably a good idea and fennel is basically in the same neighborhood as we are talking about here. I don't remember what the fifth spice is. I would think probably what you want to do is also get the wings real, real dry. Make your mixture of salt/msg/five-spice. Pat wings dry. Dust your wings with that and let them sit in the fridge for a while. Then fry them.
Now that I'm thinking about this I think the best way would be to par-cook the wings by steaming them, and then tossing them in the salt/msg/five-spice mix, and then letting THAT cool and dry in the fridge, and then frying the cool dry wings that have had some time to absorb the salt.
Sadly, this little-loved cuisine seems to be dying out. Me and my brother were just talking about how you can't get those sesame noodles that used to be on the menu of every single low-end American chinese menu in New York and New Jersey any more. There's something called "sesame noodles" but it's not the same thing at all. I love having access to all this amazing "real" Chinese food but I'm really starting to miss the American classics.
posted by jeb at 6:36 PM on February 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
Sure, you got your MSG, that's giving you some meaty flavor. You got your salt. You got your frying, giving it some tasty Maillard reaction-based flavor compounds. All good stuff. But there's a weird other type of meatiness than comes out in American Chinese food from star anise. NOT so much that it tastes noticeably anise-y, we're not going for Good 'n' Plenty here. Toast up some stars, grind them, add that to your spice mixture. Or just buy a five-spice mix. Actually, that's probably better. You get the numby bits that way too. Cloves and Sichuan pepper are probably a good idea and fennel is basically in the same neighborhood as we are talking about here. I don't remember what the fifth spice is. I would think probably what you want to do is also get the wings real, real dry. Make your mixture of salt/msg/five-spice. Pat wings dry. Dust your wings with that and let them sit in the fridge for a while. Then fry them.
Now that I'm thinking about this I think the best way would be to par-cook the wings by steaming them, and then tossing them in the salt/msg/five-spice mix, and then letting THAT cool and dry in the fridge, and then frying the cool dry wings that have had some time to absorb the salt.
Sadly, this little-loved cuisine seems to be dying out. Me and my brother were just talking about how you can't get those sesame noodles that used to be on the menu of every single low-end American chinese menu in New York and New Jersey any more. There's something called "sesame noodles" but it's not the same thing at all. I love having access to all this amazing "real" Chinese food but I'm really starting to miss the American classics.
posted by jeb at 6:36 PM on February 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
I think these may come close, based on Yelp reviews from an apparently exemplary restaurant that say that soy sauce is the secret ingredient. I would be really surprised if the wings that we speak of had 5 spice powder in them or if they were prepared in any kind of fussy way. Please report back if you make them!
posted by Wordwoman at 7:01 PM on February 12, 2013
posted by Wordwoman at 7:01 PM on February 12, 2013
Response by poster: omg. WORDWOMAN. YES.. I have to try this out and attempt to make them tomorrow or this weekend.. I'll report back on my findings.
I also thing that having 5spice in these are a bit much. .I think that's a bit too fancy for Ghetto Chinese...
posted by baconandvodka at 7:40 PM on February 12, 2013
I also thing that having 5spice in these are a bit much. .I think that's a bit too fancy for Ghetto Chinese...
posted by baconandvodka at 7:40 PM on February 12, 2013
I know that you have nothing but the best intentions, baconandvodka, and that you have no offensive intent. That said, though, I don't know if 'Ghetto Chinese' is the best way to refer to this kind if thing.
More usefully: what kind of oil are you using?
posted by box at 7:56 PM on February 12, 2013
More usefully: what kind of oil are you using?
posted by box at 7:56 PM on February 12, 2013
Response by poster: box: I've tossed the idea of what to actually call this w/o being offensive. I figured that since I grew up in the ghetto and this is the only place where I could acquire this style of Chinese food, it seemed like a logical labeling of it. I'm sorry if I've offended anyone in the process. Regarding the types of oil I've used-- it has been vegetable oil and corn oil.
posted by baconandvodka at 8:07 PM on February 12, 2013
posted by baconandvodka at 8:07 PM on February 12, 2013
I don't think it's five-spice powder. That wouldn't make any sense in chicken breading, especially for an American audience 15 years ago or so. I also really do not think it would be fish sauce, as that's not a common Chinese-American ingredient in take-out cooking.
I think OmieWise is onto something with the well-used oil. MSG is also certainly part of the equation. If I were reverse-engineering the coating on that, I'd guess it's got rice flour and/or corn starch, egg, maybe some all-purpose flour. And the oil is almost certainly peanut oil.
But the trick that you're missing is likely to be this: They are probably fried twice.
posted by yellowcandy at 8:23 PM on February 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
I think OmieWise is onto something with the well-used oil. MSG is also certainly part of the equation. If I were reverse-engineering the coating on that, I'd guess it's got rice flour and/or corn starch, egg, maybe some all-purpose flour. And the oil is almost certainly peanut oil.
But the trick that you're missing is likely to be this: They are probably fried twice.
posted by yellowcandy at 8:23 PM on February 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: The one thing I'm sure about is that there isn't any eggs in it. I've got a severe egg allergy and I haven't keeled over and died yet. *knocks on wood* I definately agree with the twice frying thing. When I watch them prep it, it seems as if it's already been fried before hand ant they throw it in there a second time around to make it amazing.. and to make it "Fried Hard"
posted by baconandvodka at 8:50 PM on February 12, 2013
posted by baconandvodka at 8:50 PM on February 12, 2013
Ghetto Chinese ain't no thang. It's even Capitalized! That's respect! Right.
We call the Chinese takeout holes on campus as "cheap chinese." Despite it being $6-7 for lunch. There are an unexpected number of restaurants round here who end up being unofficial and highly underacknowledged soup kitchens at the end the the day.
What do you think about $1-slice "crack" pizza places?
--
"Fried hard" may possibly translate better as "re-fried?"
posted by porpoise at 9:26 PM on February 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
We call the Chinese takeout holes on campus as "cheap chinese." Despite it being $6-7 for lunch. There are an unexpected number of restaurants round here who end up being unofficial and highly underacknowledged soup kitchens at the end the the day.
What do you think about $1-slice "crack" pizza places?
--
"Fried hard" may possibly translate better as "re-fried?"
posted by porpoise at 9:26 PM on February 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
I think I know what you're talking about, because it sounds exactly like the chicken that my Chinese mother makes. Keep in mind that the places that you advertise are endorsing economy - so there will absolutely not be any fancy ingredients at all. I actually suspect that they're literally only using salt, black pepper and wheat flour, because that's almost the only way that I've seen Chinese people go about it (and I know a ton of them by nature of attending hundreds of house parties with my parents' friends) - no marinade, no spices, etc. It's all about the process.
First you must dry the chicken completely, and then cover it generously with both the salt and pepper on both sides. The key is to let it stand at least an hour. Then you coat it with the flour. The oil should absolutely be canola oil, and you need to get it bubbling hot before you put the wings inside. Chinese chicken wings are different from that of Western chicken wings in that they won't have even the slightest trace of grease covering them, so it is absolutely essential to keep the breading as simple as possible (hence the flour), and to get the oil scorchingly hot so that it doesn't stick to the chicken. The final step is to just cook it for long enough. Ideally, you want to take it out at the very moment all of the meat turns white, but not so that it overcooks even a second - this is why it's so juicy. I don't know how they do it, but they can do it intuitively every single time!
One thing you should note - for some reason, the black pepper that Chinese households use will be massively different from anything the westernized groceries will sell. It will be ground into a fine powder, for one, and will have the consistency of gunpowder. This is absolutely crucial to making the chicken for some reason and has an extremely noticeable flavor difference from regular black pepper, and will almost taste like five-spice. Look in one of those cheap Chinese importers that sell spices in plastic bags. It's not anything fancy for sure.
I'm not 100% sure if this your chicken, but there should be one tell-tale sign in appearance if it is - the chicken will still look beautifully golden brown, but if you analyze it closely, you'll find minute black powder mixed in with the golden brown appearance from the pepper used .
posted by Conspire at 9:30 PM on February 12, 2013 [3 favorites]
First you must dry the chicken completely, and then cover it generously with both the salt and pepper on both sides. The key is to let it stand at least an hour. Then you coat it with the flour. The oil should absolutely be canola oil, and you need to get it bubbling hot before you put the wings inside. Chinese chicken wings are different from that of Western chicken wings in that they won't have even the slightest trace of grease covering them, so it is absolutely essential to keep the breading as simple as possible (hence the flour), and to get the oil scorchingly hot so that it doesn't stick to the chicken. The final step is to just cook it for long enough. Ideally, you want to take it out at the very moment all of the meat turns white, but not so that it overcooks even a second - this is why it's so juicy. I don't know how they do it, but they can do it intuitively every single time!
One thing you should note - for some reason, the black pepper that Chinese households use will be massively different from anything the westernized groceries will sell. It will be ground into a fine powder, for one, and will have the consistency of gunpowder. This is absolutely crucial to making the chicken for some reason and has an extremely noticeable flavor difference from regular black pepper, and will almost taste like five-spice. Look in one of those cheap Chinese importers that sell spices in plastic bags. It's not anything fancy for sure.
I'm not 100% sure if this your chicken, but there should be one tell-tale sign in appearance if it is - the chicken will still look beautifully golden brown, but if you analyze it closely, you'll find minute black powder mixed in with the golden brown appearance from the pepper used .
posted by Conspire at 9:30 PM on February 12, 2013 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: conspire. I think I love you.
If you've helped me make this chicken at home.. I def will love you in a non-creepy/threatening/omfg this crazy woman on the internet is in lurve with me type way.
Now I need to buy a ridiculous amount of chicken wings and experiment. Thank you sooo much everyone!!
posted by baconandvodka at 9:33 PM on February 12, 2013
If you've helped me make this chicken at home.. I def will love you in a non-creepy/threatening/omfg this crazy woman on the internet is in lurve with me type way.
Now I need to buy a ridiculous amount of chicken wings and experiment. Thank you sooo much everyone!!
posted by baconandvodka at 9:33 PM on February 12, 2013
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Without anything else to go on, I would start with a really basic marinade like mirin, fish sauce, sugar and garlic. And I would dredge in corn starch or rice flour (rather than wheat flour) and maybe egg white before frying.
posted by bcwinters at 3:51 PM on February 12, 2013