Are bicyclists athletes?
August 29, 2005 5:43 AM Subscribe
Are bicyclists athletes?
My cow-orker the Sports Guy saw Jason Whitlock on PTI saying that (paraphrasing) Lance was no where near the greatest athlete of all time, since he just pedals a bike, which we all can do. Sports Guy said he fully agreed with Jason Whitlock. Sports Guy feels that while MJ, Bo, and Michael Vick are athletes, Lance is not.
I disagreed, and provided Sports Guy with a definition of athlete: "A person possessing the natural or acquired traits, such as strength, agility, and endurance, that are necessary for physical exercise or sports, especially those performed in competitive contexts."
Needless to say Sports Guy remains unconvinced. Help me make my point.
My cow-orker the Sports Guy saw Jason Whitlock on PTI saying that (paraphrasing) Lance was no where near the greatest athlete of all time, since he just pedals a bike, which we all can do. Sports Guy said he fully agreed with Jason Whitlock. Sports Guy feels that while MJ, Bo, and Michael Vick are athletes, Lance is not.
I disagreed, and provided Sports Guy with a definition of athlete: "A person possessing the natural or acquired traits, such as strength, agility, and endurance, that are necessary for physical exercise or sports, especially those performed in competitive contexts."
Needless to say Sports Guy remains unconvinced. Help me make my point.
Sports Guy is HIGH. There's no comparison between bicycling and any professional American sport in terms of torturous physical exertion over a long period. If any human being is an athlete, bicyclists are athletes.
posted by selfnoise at 5:53 AM on August 29, 2005
posted by selfnoise at 5:53 AM on August 29, 2005
what Sports Guy said.
Climbing and Time Trialing are two completely different disciplines; Lance excels at both.
There is a difference between pedaling a bike and busting your ass for a 6-hours.
posted by neilkod at 6:02 AM on August 29, 2005
Climbing and Time Trialing are two completely different disciplines; Lance excels at both.
There is a difference between pedaling a bike and busting your ass for a 6-hours.
posted by neilkod at 6:02 AM on August 29, 2005
I'd suggest that Sports Guy go out and win seven consecutive Tour de Frances, and then ask him if he feels like an athlete. Yes we can all pedal a bike. We can also all dribble a basketball, run around a track, swing a baseball bat... I utterly fail to understand the correlation between the fact that Lance Armstrong rides a bike, and his not being an athlete.
I don't even know anything about cycling, nor do I follow the Tour or know much about Armstrong. This just sounds like a retarded statement, and there's nothing I dislike more.
I once read a long article about ways in which Armstrong is physically different, in unusual ways, from your average human being. These differences were specifically noted as known contributors to his ability to utterly decimate the field of play in cycling competition. I'm unable to find that article now, but this Wikipedia page about him notes the following:
"All top cyclists have excellent key physical attributes. Armstrong is no exception, although in one way, he may be unusually good even for an elite athlete. He is near the top but not at the top aerobically, having a VO2 Max of 83.8 mL/kg/min -- much higher than the average person (40-50) but not as high as that of some other elite cyclists, such as Miguel Indurain (88.0) or Greg LeMond (92.5). His heart is 30 percent larger than average, but an enlarged heart is common for athletes as well. Armstrong's most unusual attribute may be his low lactate levels: even with intense training, while most other racers are in the twenties, Armstrong doesn't go above a 6. Some theorize that his high pedaling cadence is designed to take advantage of this, while others -- like Jan Ullrich -- rely on their aerobic capacity more, pushing a large gear at a lower rate."
posted by autojack at 6:02 AM on August 29, 2005
I don't even know anything about cycling, nor do I follow the Tour or know much about Armstrong. This just sounds like a retarded statement, and there's nothing I dislike more.
I once read a long article about ways in which Armstrong is physically different, in unusual ways, from your average human being. These differences were specifically noted as known contributors to his ability to utterly decimate the field of play in cycling competition. I'm unable to find that article now, but this Wikipedia page about him notes the following:
"All top cyclists have excellent key physical attributes. Armstrong is no exception, although in one way, he may be unusually good even for an elite athlete. He is near the top but not at the top aerobically, having a VO2 Max of 83.8 mL/kg/min -- much higher than the average person (40-50) but not as high as that of some other elite cyclists, such as Miguel Indurain (88.0) or Greg LeMond (92.5). His heart is 30 percent larger than average, but an enlarged heart is common for athletes as well. Armstrong's most unusual attribute may be his low lactate levels: even with intense training, while most other racers are in the twenties, Armstrong doesn't go above a 6. Some theorize that his high pedaling cadence is designed to take advantage of this, while others -- like Jan Ullrich -- rely on their aerobic capacity more, pushing a large gear at a lower rate."
posted by autojack at 6:02 AM on August 29, 2005
doh! I meant what selfnoise said!
/me makes a note to never post before coffee.
posted by neilkod at 6:02 AM on August 29, 2005
/me makes a note to never post before coffee.
posted by neilkod at 6:02 AM on August 29, 2005
Of course he's an athlete! Greatest of all time - no. He's not even the greatest cyclist of all time.
posted by jikel_morten at 6:13 AM on August 29, 2005
posted by jikel_morten at 6:13 AM on August 29, 2005
Continuous max heart rate: 200+
Body fat %: Less than 5
Resting heart rate: 27 bpm
Calories burned per day when racing: 10,000
Days in a row of competition: 7 or more
Yeah, he can't be an athlete with numbers like that....
posted by whoda at 6:38 AM on August 29, 2005
Body fat %: Less than 5
Resting heart rate: 27 bpm
Calories burned per day when racing: 10,000
Days in a row of competition: 7 or more
Yeah, he can't be an athlete with numbers like that....
posted by whoda at 6:38 AM on August 29, 2005
The notion that Lance Armstrong (or any cyclist) isn't an athlete is such an asinine one that I can't even dignify it with a.... oh, wait.
Just because there isn't a ball doesn't mean he's not an athlete. God, it's just so stupid. Are marathon runners athletes? We can all run, can't we?
posted by mike9322 at 6:48 AM on August 29, 2005
Just because there isn't a ball doesn't mean he's not an athlete. God, it's just so stupid. Are marathon runners athletes? We can all run, can't we?
posted by mike9322 at 6:48 AM on August 29, 2005
Oh, pshaw. If Lance weren't an athlete, why would he bother taking those performance enhancing drugs?
posted by crunchland at 6:56 AM on August 29, 2005
posted by crunchland at 6:56 AM on August 29, 2005
Sports Guy is (obviously) wrong, but he's never going to realize it, or acknowledge it if he does, so you might as well drop the subject. We all have friends with idiot ideas that they refuse to examine (hell, we probably have such ideas ourselves, but let's not go there...).
And could you please drop the "cow-orker"? It was mildly funny once, ten years ago. Now it's annoying.
posted by languagehat at 7:06 AM on August 29, 2005
And could you please drop the "cow-orker"? It was mildly funny once, ten years ago. Now it's annoying.
posted by languagehat at 7:06 AM on August 29, 2005
Sports Guy is HIGH
What he said.
You should ask Sports Guy if football players are athletes; I mean, they wear all that protective padding, and only have to "work" for a few seconds, then get a couple of minutes rest between plays.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 7:09 AM on August 29, 2005
What he said.
You should ask Sports Guy if football players are athletes; I mean, they wear all that protective padding, and only have to "work" for a few seconds, then get a couple of minutes rest between plays.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 7:09 AM on August 29, 2005
Booknoise: How hard is the Tour de France?posted by scazza at 7:12 AM on August 29, 2005
Coyle: It's the hardest event on the planet: nothing comes close. Studies have shown that Tour riders spend more daily energy than Everest climbers. During those three weeks they spend energy at a rate that exceeds the capabilities of all but four animal species.
Because cycling is nonimpact -- which is to say, gentle on bones and joints -- it opens the door to the deepest of impacts, the pushing of the human body to its limits. This property, when mixed with the human will, creates some impressive numbers. The average pro cyclist will pedal far enough in training each year to encircle the globe.
Being a bicyclist myself, I feel that the finest athletes in the world are triathletes.
The sheer mental power required to complete such an arduous task is tremendous. While it has been estimated that 1% of the population can run a marathon, less than 1% of those few can complete a triathlon. That's saying something.
For years, my father and I used to joke that if you could smoke while doing it, it wasn't a sport, and thus golf and baseball are not sports - they're activities.
Sure it takes skill to hit a curve ball, but athletic ability? Please. You're confusing skill with athletic ability. Consider golf: Craig Stadler. Need I say more?
I'm not demeaning these things, just saying that the sheer amount of athletic ability required is different.
Ultimately, any discussion of this sort is just opinion anyway.
posted by kungfujoe at 7:15 AM on August 29, 2005
The sheer mental power required to complete such an arduous task is tremendous. While it has been estimated that 1% of the population can run a marathon, less than 1% of those few can complete a triathlon. That's saying something.
For years, my father and I used to joke that if you could smoke while doing it, it wasn't a sport, and thus golf and baseball are not sports - they're activities.
Sure it takes skill to hit a curve ball, but athletic ability? Please. You're confusing skill with athletic ability. Consider golf: Craig Stadler. Need I say more?
I'm not demeaning these things, just saying that the sheer amount of athletic ability required is different.
Ultimately, any discussion of this sort is just opinion anyway.
posted by kungfujoe at 7:15 AM on August 29, 2005
Sports Guy's thought that cyclists aren't athletes because anyone can pedal a bike means that anyone who indulges in a common physical activity (such as marathoning or swimming) isn't an athlete if a 'regular' person can also do it.
Apparently athletes just became an endangered species.
posted by Dipsomaniac at 8:26 AM on August 29, 2005
Apparently athletes just became an endangered species.
posted by Dipsomaniac at 8:26 AM on August 29, 2005
This guy is out of his mind. THough I think just tossing the numbers in his face won't get him to acknowledge that cyclists are "athletes."
He's probably one of those guys who is tired about hearing how great cycling is while having never participated himself. Lately, mainly due to Lance, there has been a lot of stuff written hyping cycling up--that for one reason or another he chooses to resent.
Simply telling him that the Tour De France is the toughest athletic competition in the world, and that Lance's heart is so huge probably isn't going to convince him at all.
I would concentrate on explaining the team aspect of cycling as well, which, does of course play a big part in the success of riders. That might help him to understand that beyond doing the "pedaling" that we all can do, there is, in fact, a team aspect involved. this might help him to acknowledge it on the same terms as football and baseball (team sports).
posted by dead_ at 8:27 AM on August 29, 2005
He's probably one of those guys who is tired about hearing how great cycling is while having never participated himself. Lately, mainly due to Lance, there has been a lot of stuff written hyping cycling up--that for one reason or another he chooses to resent.
Simply telling him that the Tour De France is the toughest athletic competition in the world, and that Lance's heart is so huge probably isn't going to convince him at all.
I would concentrate on explaining the team aspect of cycling as well, which, does of course play a big part in the success of riders. That might help him to understand that beyond doing the "pedaling" that we all can do, there is, in fact, a team aspect involved. this might help him to acknowledge it on the same terms as football and baseball (team sports).
posted by dead_ at 8:27 AM on August 29, 2005
Here's a little perspective on the differences between "what we can all do" and what someone like Lance Armstrong can do:
A friend of mine is a competent club-level cyclist; he's far stronger, has much greater endurance and is considerably more skillful on a bike than I (as an average joe who just likes riding) am. This year he took part in the L'Etape de Tour (Mourenx to Pau, stage 16 of the full race); it took him just over 8 hours, putting him in the middle of the field time wise. At the end, one of his knees had just about packed up and he was so sore he didn't want to sit down for a week afterwards.
The winner of stage 16 in the actual race managed it in 4 hours 38 minutes 40 seconds. The top 10 were all within about 2.5 minutes of that time. And that was one stage out of 21 for them....
posted by arc at 8:27 AM on August 29, 2005
A friend of mine is a competent club-level cyclist; he's far stronger, has much greater endurance and is considerably more skillful on a bike than I (as an average joe who just likes riding) am. This year he took part in the L'Etape de Tour (Mourenx to Pau, stage 16 of the full race); it took him just over 8 hours, putting him in the middle of the field time wise. At the end, one of his knees had just about packed up and he was so sore he didn't want to sit down for a week afterwards.
The winner of stage 16 in the actual race managed it in 4 hours 38 minutes 40 seconds. The top 10 were all within about 2.5 minutes of that time. And that was one stage out of 21 for them....
posted by arc at 8:27 AM on August 29, 2005
Athlete: A person possessing the natural or acquired traits, such as strength, agility, and endurance, that are necessary for physical exercise or sports, especially those performed in competitive contexts.
Sport: Physical activity that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often engaged in competitively.
Bicyclists, and, yes, golfers and bowlers are athletes. All of those things require particular strength and agility and require some modicum of physical activity and are engaged in competitvely.
posted by glenwood at 8:30 AM on August 29, 2005
Sport: Physical activity that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often engaged in competitively.
Bicyclists, and, yes, golfers and bowlers are athletes. All of those things require particular strength and agility and require some modicum of physical activity and are engaged in competitvely.
posted by glenwood at 8:30 AM on August 29, 2005
I'm a cyclist, so my gut reaction is a desire to spit in Sports Guy's face (and cyclists have world-class loogies).
Maybe Sports Guy thinks that being a cyclist is just about power output and requires no skill. Let's demolish that misconception.
Let's imagine navigating switchbacks in the Alps and Pyrenees at ~60 mph, on a contact patch of less than 2 square inches, after you've already ridden for 100 miles, not to mention up the same mountain you are now descending. Let's imagine doing that with someone else who is actually trying to beat us. The bike-handling skills (not to mention the balls, pun intended) of a pro cyclist are colossal. Screwing up here can kill you (see: Fabio Casartelli, Lance's late teammate).
Now let's consider the political aspects. Pro cycling is the only sport I know of where you have to collaborate with your competitors. So maybe you want to let that guy beat you, since he's not a threat to you in the overall standings but could really use a stage win, and you might be able to pull in a favor from him at a later date.
So let's review: you've just ridden 100 miles through the mountains. You need to be alert enough to descend the mountains very fast and make complex political decisions. Does that require more athletic talent than throwing or catching a ball? Fuck yes it does.
posted by adamrice at 8:31 AM on August 29, 2005
Maybe Sports Guy thinks that being a cyclist is just about power output and requires no skill. Let's demolish that misconception.
Let's imagine navigating switchbacks in the Alps and Pyrenees at ~60 mph, on a contact patch of less than 2 square inches, after you've already ridden for 100 miles, not to mention up the same mountain you are now descending. Let's imagine doing that with someone else who is actually trying to beat us. The bike-handling skills (not to mention the balls, pun intended) of a pro cyclist are colossal. Screwing up here can kill you (see: Fabio Casartelli, Lance's late teammate).
Now let's consider the political aspects. Pro cycling is the only sport I know of where you have to collaborate with your competitors. So maybe you want to let that guy beat you, since he's not a threat to you in the overall standings but could really use a stage win, and you might be able to pull in a favor from him at a later date.
So let's review: you've just ridden 100 miles through the mountains. You need to be alert enough to descend the mountains very fast and make complex political decisions. Does that require more athletic talent than throwing or catching a ball? Fuck yes it does.
posted by adamrice at 8:31 AM on August 29, 2005
Send SportsGuy a link to this thread.
The only contentious points as raised here are whether one includes people who perform in lesser physical competitions such as bowling and playing golf within the purview of 'athlete'. I think to apply the term 'athlete' to a person, they have to both compete at least semi-regularly AND physically exert themselves such that they raise a sweat and their heartbeat. So to me, bowling and playing golf are pastimes and those who compete are merely competitors.
posted by peacay at 8:38 AM on August 29, 2005
The only contentious points as raised here are whether one includes people who perform in lesser physical competitions such as bowling and playing golf within the purview of 'athlete'. I think to apply the term 'athlete' to a person, they have to both compete at least semi-regularly AND physically exert themselves such that they raise a sweat and their heartbeat. So to me, bowling and playing golf are pastimes and those who compete are merely competitors.
posted by peacay at 8:38 AM on August 29, 2005
Does that require more athletic talent than throwing or catching a ball? Fuck yes it does.
This kind of argument won't convince sports guy, which I think is what this question is about.
posted by dead_ at 8:40 AM on August 29, 2005
This kind of argument won't convince sports guy, which I think is what this question is about.
posted by dead_ at 8:40 AM on August 29, 2005
I'm no athlete, but I've been known to throw a football around. Does this mean NFL quarterbacks aren't athletes?
posted by HiddenInput at 8:49 AM on August 29, 2005
posted by HiddenInput at 8:49 AM on August 29, 2005
While I respect Lance Armstrong's accomplishment, I haven't seen any reason to consider him a mathlete. I assume he completed high school algebra, et cetera, and maybe he did some calculus in college, but that doesn't make you a mathlete.
posted by Hildago at 9:10 AM on August 29, 2005
posted by Hildago at 9:10 AM on August 29, 2005
For years, my father and I used to joke that if you could smoke while doing it, it wasn't a sport, and thus golf and baseball are not sports - they're activities.
Early Tour De France participants used to smoke during it.
In the Tour, you have to finish within 10% of the time of the satge winner. Even the person in last place has to be incredibly fast. You have to sustain high speeds (how long can you stay at 25 MPH on a bike?) for more than 3 weeks with fans inches away from you and a long series of mountains.
posted by drezdn at 9:11 AM on August 29, 2005
Early Tour De France participants used to smoke during it.
In the Tour, you have to finish within 10% of the time of the satge winner. Even the person in last place has to be incredibly fast. You have to sustain high speeds (how long can you stay at 25 MPH on a bike?) for more than 3 weeks with fans inches away from you and a long series of mountains.
posted by drezdn at 9:11 AM on August 29, 2005
Flip through any Tour book with alot of pictures and it's easy to find shots were the racers look like emaciated prisoners. Especially check out the pictures of Armstrong from the 2003 Tour when he was dehydrated.
posted by drezdn at 9:17 AM on August 29, 2005
posted by drezdn at 9:17 AM on August 29, 2005
AND physically exert themselves such that they raise a sweat and their heartbeat
Physical coordination is as much a part of being an athlete as stamina. Being able to do any movement in a structured manner that defies ordinary convention (spinning a bowling ball, pitching a knucle-ball, hitting a curveball, swinging a golf club, even aiming at a cue ball) merits the term athletic, though the degree for which the term applies is in direct relation to the amount of coordination, dexterity, stamina or strength required.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 9:17 AM on August 29, 2005
Physical coordination is as much a part of being an athlete as stamina. Being able to do any movement in a structured manner that defies ordinary convention (spinning a bowling ball, pitching a knucle-ball, hitting a curveball, swinging a golf club, even aiming at a cue ball) merits the term athletic, though the degree for which the term applies is in direct relation to the amount of coordination, dexterity, stamina or strength required.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 9:17 AM on August 29, 2005
Sports Guy sounds like one of those ass-clowns that thinks it's only a sport if guys get to slap each other on the butt.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 9:19 AM on August 29, 2005
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 9:19 AM on August 29, 2005
I won't argue Civil_Disobedient. It's semantics (and I admit my definition was overlimiting). What one person calls a sportsman, another will call an athlete. But I think the latter at least invokes a higher level of accomplishment or competition, no matter what the endeavour no?
posted by peacay at 9:39 AM on August 29, 2005
posted by peacay at 9:39 AM on August 29, 2005
the real question is: can somebody be a Sports Guy and NOT be a total middle-management-style idiot?
posted by yonation at 10:16 AM on August 29, 2005
posted by yonation at 10:16 AM on August 29, 2005
Is Armstrong an athlete? Of course not. He only has one testicle. Other bicyclists are athletes, however.
Point out that pinch hitters are athletes, as are pinch runners, goalies, linesmen, bowlers, kayakers... If he doesn't agree, call 'im a goddamn girl. I'd say to call 'im a fag, because that carries more weight and generally Sports Guys hate it more than anything else, but it does kinda validate their homophobia to do so.
posted by klangklangston at 10:40 AM on August 29, 2005
Point out that pinch hitters are athletes, as are pinch runners, goalies, linesmen, bowlers, kayakers... If he doesn't agree, call 'im a goddamn girl. I'd say to call 'im a fag, because that carries more weight and generally Sports Guys hate it more than anything else, but it does kinda validate their homophobia to do so.
posted by klangklangston at 10:40 AM on August 29, 2005
Does Sportsguy also think that runners are not athletes? What about the rest of track and field? This is such a ridiculous assertion that I get the feeling this guy is just fucking with you and no amount of argumentation is going to make him admit that he is wrong.
posted by sic at 10:43 AM on August 29, 2005
posted by sic at 10:43 AM on August 29, 2005
Early Tour De France participants used to smoke during it.
They'd probably kick you out for having nicotine in your blood these days. They do so for caffine.
Anyway, Honestly I see SportsGuy's point. To him, being an athelete requires Strength and skill. Lance Armstrong can probably run up and down a basketball court a hundred times without getting tired, but can he make many jump shots while doing it?
Bikeing may require some stratagy with teams and what not, but it's not exactly high level. We're not talking chess here, or even football really.
Clearly what sports guy thinks of sports requires agility and precision.
Another thing is that most of these athletes are normal humans who trained hard and built their skills, not genetic freaks.
posted by delmoi at 10:49 AM on August 29, 2005
They'd probably kick you out for having nicotine in your blood these days. They do so for caffine.
Anyway, Honestly I see SportsGuy's point. To him, being an athelete requires Strength and skill. Lance Armstrong can probably run up and down a basketball court a hundred times without getting tired, but can he make many jump shots while doing it?
Bikeing may require some stratagy with teams and what not, but it's not exactly high level. We're not talking chess here, or even football really.
Clearly what sports guy thinks of sports requires agility and precision.
Another thing is that most of these athletes are normal humans who trained hard and built their skills, not genetic freaks.
posted by delmoi at 10:49 AM on August 29, 2005
Biking may require some stratagy with teams and what not, but it's not exactly high level.
Actually, it requires extremely high levels of skill. Use to much energy to early and you have to drop out because you're too tired (as happened to Armstrong in his first attempt). Use to little and you're dropped from the race for not making it in time. If you're a sprinter and you break away too early you will use up your energy before the finish line. You have to know when to attack, or when to ust hang back with the rest of the group. You have to have extremely high level of skill in bike handling (Armstrong demonstrated this the year he dodged a big pile up by cutting across grass). You have to deal with the stress of being inches away from fans, and in the case of Armstrong fans who are standing only a few feet in front of you flipping you off.
There's a huge mental game just to keep going, you're burning more calories than your body can take in. Through out the 23 day race you're too wound up to sleep. Driving a bike at speeds in excess of 25 miles is not easy, but try doing it for that long on that little sleep.
Another thing is that most of these athletes are normal humans who trained hard and built their skills, not genetic freaks.
Most above average pro athletes are genetic freaks. Ted Williams had far above average eye sight. The top pitchers have unusually built arm muscles. Olympic sprinters have a high concentration of fast twitch muscle fiber while distance runners have an unusually high concentration of slow twitch fibers.
Finally, it's got to be even harder to be an American bike racer. There's stories of people that have blocked the Postal team with their SUV and yelled at the cclists to get off the road, near Austin. The guy didn't apologize until he realized one of the bikers was Lance Armstrong.
posted by drezdn at 11:07 AM on August 29, 2005
Actually, it requires extremely high levels of skill. Use to much energy to early and you have to drop out because you're too tired (as happened to Armstrong in his first attempt). Use to little and you're dropped from the race for not making it in time. If you're a sprinter and you break away too early you will use up your energy before the finish line. You have to know when to attack, or when to ust hang back with the rest of the group. You have to have extremely high level of skill in bike handling (Armstrong demonstrated this the year he dodged a big pile up by cutting across grass). You have to deal with the stress of being inches away from fans, and in the case of Armstrong fans who are standing only a few feet in front of you flipping you off.
There's a huge mental game just to keep going, you're burning more calories than your body can take in. Through out the 23 day race you're too wound up to sleep. Driving a bike at speeds in excess of 25 miles is not easy, but try doing it for that long on that little sleep.
Another thing is that most of these athletes are normal humans who trained hard and built their skills, not genetic freaks.
Most above average pro athletes are genetic freaks. Ted Williams had far above average eye sight. The top pitchers have unusually built arm muscles. Olympic sprinters have a high concentration of fast twitch muscle fiber while distance runners have an unusually high concentration of slow twitch fibers.
Finally, it's got to be even harder to be an American bike racer. There's stories of people that have blocked the Postal team with their SUV and yelled at the cclists to get off the road, near Austin. The guy didn't apologize until he realized one of the bikers was Lance Armstrong.
posted by drezdn at 11:07 AM on August 29, 2005
I guess Sport Guy thinks that cycling is like marathoning, but that the bike makes it easier and you get to sit down. I only recently realized how different cycling is from everything else.
My understanding is that the wind or pull is overwhelmingly important in cycling. It's much easier to follow than to lead, so if someone wants to separate from the crowd, they have to do it in the long uphills, where the speed is lowest. That sounds like the recipe for pain, and for squeezing the very last pieces of energy and will out of a person. The positioning also makes tactics more important than in other endurance sports. So to me, cycling is a very athletic sport by any criteria except maybe fair play and sportsmanship.
The cyclists in the thread, please correct me if I'm wrong.
posted by springload at 11:09 AM on August 29, 2005
My understanding is that the wind or pull is overwhelmingly important in cycling. It's much easier to follow than to lead, so if someone wants to separate from the crowd, they have to do it in the long uphills, where the speed is lowest. That sounds like the recipe for pain, and for squeezing the very last pieces of energy and will out of a person. The positioning also makes tactics more important than in other endurance sports. So to me, cycling is a very athletic sport by any criteria except maybe fair play and sportsmanship.
The cyclists in the thread, please correct me if I'm wrong.
posted by springload at 11:09 AM on August 29, 2005
Let's see - what about a professional bicyclist would make that person an athlete.
Let's start with spending four to six hours a day in the saddle for 21 out of 23 days in all types of weather. Covering anywhere from 100 to 150 miles each day. That is the reality of the Tour de France - everything from blistering heat, to downpours, to winds, even snow (although that's rare).
What does it take to do that? Well, endurance first and foremost. Plus the ability to recover quickly in order to repeat each day. Balanced body strength - most people think the bike is just about legs - but if you do not have a strong core (abs and lower back) and upper body, you can't complete even a 50-mile ride without being in terrific pain (trust me, I've been there).
And how about flexibility? If you are not flexible through the hips, you can't pedal efficiently. Your body will be cramped on the bike and unable to take full advantage of leg extension to generate power. This will lead to problems in the knees and ankles.
Flexibility elsewhere will help you get through the bumpy rides, the emergency swerves, starts, stops, sudden accelerations, and other moves necessary to complete lots of miles by bicycle.
Finally, that flexibility is part of your injury mitigation and prevention. Consider Lance's little off-road jaunt in the Tour de France 2003. He had to make a snap decision, stay loose on the bike to absorb the uneven surface, and have the strength to maintain control as he switched from road to field and back to road. Physical flexibility as well as mental plays into that.
Strength - just try riding up 1/2 mile at a 5% grade somewhere and you'll see what I mean. Consider that a professional cyclist would consider that 5% grade nothing more than a bump in the road.
What about the sprinters, you might ask...those guys who wimp out after the first week and fall to the back of the pack. Well...what about them? How about explosive strength in the legs, enough to power them in a matter of seconds from 20 to 25mph to speeds of 35 and even 40mph on flat road as they sprint to the finish. How about the strength and skill to say upright as riders around them slam into their handlebars, their shoulders, their sides.
Now...let's branch out a bit: time trial. The ability to not just go full out, but to know your body so well that you know how hard you can go to get to the end strong yet barely have the energy/strength left to stumble off your bike 10 yards further on. This takes more than physical conditioning. It takes focus, dedication, and the ability to think and judge your condition and the conditions around you as you go.
How about track bikes - no four to six hour efforts here. But it does take explosive strength, tactics, and steady nerves. Don't forget that flexibility I mentioned before - you need that just as much on the track as the road. You've got no brakes and only one gear, and no ability to coast. Your legs alone determine your speed, your acceleration and your stopping power.
Racing in a criterium - that's just an hour or so of effort. All out, in a pack of people all trying to get the best position at every corner. So, to the strength and flexibility, add reflexes.
Oh, did I mention a terrific sense of balance and ability to feel where you and the bike are in space as you move? Try carving up a great set of corners without balance and a feel for how the bike will respond under you. Now do it in a pack of riders going 20+mph and packed shoulder-to-shoulder and wheel-to-wheel.
I could go on...mountain bikes, cross country, down-hillers, cyclocross. There are many disciplines to bicycling. Every one of them requires a level of fitness and skill that leaves only one descriptive word for its participants: Athlete.
posted by Dayngerous at 11:10 AM on August 29, 2005
Let's start with spending four to six hours a day in the saddle for 21 out of 23 days in all types of weather. Covering anywhere from 100 to 150 miles each day. That is the reality of the Tour de France - everything from blistering heat, to downpours, to winds, even snow (although that's rare).
What does it take to do that? Well, endurance first and foremost. Plus the ability to recover quickly in order to repeat each day. Balanced body strength - most people think the bike is just about legs - but if you do not have a strong core (abs and lower back) and upper body, you can't complete even a 50-mile ride without being in terrific pain (trust me, I've been there).
And how about flexibility? If you are not flexible through the hips, you can't pedal efficiently. Your body will be cramped on the bike and unable to take full advantage of leg extension to generate power. This will lead to problems in the knees and ankles.
Flexibility elsewhere will help you get through the bumpy rides, the emergency swerves, starts, stops, sudden accelerations, and other moves necessary to complete lots of miles by bicycle.
Finally, that flexibility is part of your injury mitigation and prevention. Consider Lance's little off-road jaunt in the Tour de France 2003. He had to make a snap decision, stay loose on the bike to absorb the uneven surface, and have the strength to maintain control as he switched from road to field and back to road. Physical flexibility as well as mental plays into that.
Strength - just try riding up 1/2 mile at a 5% grade somewhere and you'll see what I mean. Consider that a professional cyclist would consider that 5% grade nothing more than a bump in the road.
What about the sprinters, you might ask...those guys who wimp out after the first week and fall to the back of the pack. Well...what about them? How about explosive strength in the legs, enough to power them in a matter of seconds from 20 to 25mph to speeds of 35 and even 40mph on flat road as they sprint to the finish. How about the strength and skill to say upright as riders around them slam into their handlebars, their shoulders, their sides.
Now...let's branch out a bit: time trial. The ability to not just go full out, but to know your body so well that you know how hard you can go to get to the end strong yet barely have the energy/strength left to stumble off your bike 10 yards further on. This takes more than physical conditioning. It takes focus, dedication, and the ability to think and judge your condition and the conditions around you as you go.
How about track bikes - no four to six hour efforts here. But it does take explosive strength, tactics, and steady nerves. Don't forget that flexibility I mentioned before - you need that just as much on the track as the road. You've got no brakes and only one gear, and no ability to coast. Your legs alone determine your speed, your acceleration and your stopping power.
Racing in a criterium - that's just an hour or so of effort. All out, in a pack of people all trying to get the best position at every corner. So, to the strength and flexibility, add reflexes.
Oh, did I mention a terrific sense of balance and ability to feel where you and the bike are in space as you move? Try carving up a great set of corners without balance and a feel for how the bike will respond under you. Now do it in a pack of riders going 20+mph and packed shoulder-to-shoulder and wheel-to-wheel.
I could go on...mountain bikes, cross country, down-hillers, cyclocross. There are many disciplines to bicycling. Every one of them requires a level of fitness and skill that leaves only one descriptive word for its participants: Athlete.
posted by Dayngerous at 11:10 AM on August 29, 2005
Since no one else has mentioned it, there's also strategy in bike selection. Lemond won when he chose a previously ignored Aerobar that helped put him in a more aerodynamic position. Considerations need to be made for what type of bike to use on each stage.
The different strategies involved in cycling may not be apparent on the surface, but there's an underlying game as complicated as, if not more so than football, basketball or baseball.
posted by drezdn at 11:21 AM on August 29, 2005
The different strategies involved in cycling may not be apparent on the surface, but there's an underlying game as complicated as, if not more so than football, basketball or baseball.
posted by drezdn at 11:21 AM on August 29, 2005
I'm not a cyclist, but I appreciate the sport, and I think part of what always gets me down on it a bit is the elitist attitude of cyclists constantly pointing out how difficult it is and how much harder the athletes train than any other sport, and how much more strategy there is, etc, etc...
I don't agree with sports guy whatsoever, but I can see him playing devil's advocate just for the hell of it, because maybe he has some antagonism toward that attitude.
If this thread is about winning him over, like I said, I think you're going to have to do more than approach him simply by throwing these raw, bikers-are-the-hardest-working-biggest-hearted-huge-v02'd facts in his face.
posted by dead_ at 11:34 AM on August 29, 2005
I don't agree with sports guy whatsoever, but I can see him playing devil's advocate just for the hell of it, because maybe he has some antagonism toward that attitude.
If this thread is about winning him over, like I said, I think you're going to have to do more than approach him simply by throwing these raw, bikers-are-the-hardest-working-biggest-hearted-huge-v02'd facts in his face.
posted by dead_ at 11:34 AM on August 29, 2005
Lance Armstrong couldn't hit a curveball, dunk, stay on his feet after a hard right hook, cleanly hit a 2-iron, fire a slapshot into the net from center ice, drive a sled 40 yards, etc. Bo, Deion, and MJ (even Julius Peppers, Kevin McHale, or John Elway!) could do many/most/all of these things. Armstrong is an athlete, sure, but you'd be hard-pressed to find a non-endurance-intensive sport in which he'd be in the top percentiles. Semantics, I guess, but this question sure did bring out the cycling freaks.
posted by Kwantsar at 11:41 AM on August 29, 2005
posted by Kwantsar at 11:41 AM on August 29, 2005
could do many/most/all of these things.
Have you ever watched the ESPN challenges were they have athletes perform outside of their sport? Most suck at it.
For example, Michael Jordan didn't make it past the minor leagues in baseball.
To truly excel at a single sport, you usually have to develop yourself to the point that there are significant losses in some areas.
This is why the best triatheletes aren't always the best runners or bikers, or why good bikers don't make good runners.
bikers-are-the-hardest-working-biggest-hearted-huge-v02'd facts in his face.
It's not necessarily the hardest sport per se, but baseball players never have to defend the fact that they're athletes so cyclists are somewhat bitter when they have to defend it.
posted by drezdn at 11:50 AM on August 29, 2005
Have you ever watched the ESPN challenges were they have athletes perform outside of their sport? Most suck at it.
For example, Michael Jordan didn't make it past the minor leagues in baseball.
To truly excel at a single sport, you usually have to develop yourself to the point that there are significant losses in some areas.
This is why the best triatheletes aren't always the best runners or bikers, or why good bikers don't make good runners.
bikers-are-the-hardest-working-biggest-hearted-huge-v02'd facts in his face.
It's not necessarily the hardest sport per se, but baseball players never have to defend the fact that they're athletes so cyclists are somewhat bitter when they have to defend it.
posted by drezdn at 11:50 AM on August 29, 2005
drezdn-- MJ hit .202 in the Minors. Lance couldn't hit .050.
posted by Kwantsar at 11:59 AM on August 29, 2005
posted by Kwantsar at 11:59 AM on August 29, 2005
Apparently, Andre Agassi said something similar to what kungfujoe's father said, saying that any activity you can do while drinking alcohol isn't a sport (i.e. golfing, bowling). This was in defense of tennis, but I think it applies to endurance bicycling as well.
posted by NYCnosh at 1:31 PM on August 29, 2005
posted by NYCnosh at 1:31 PM on August 29, 2005
"this question sure did bring out the cycling freaks"
And the trolls.
posted by adamrice at 1:57 PM on August 29, 2005
And the trolls.
posted by adamrice at 1:57 PM on August 29, 2005
Lance Armstrong couldn't hit a curveball, dunk, stay on his feet after a hard right hook, cleanly hit a 2-iron, fire a slapshot into the net from center ice, drive a sled 40 yards, etc. Bo, Deion, and MJ (even Julius Peppers, Kevin McHale, or John Elway!) could do many/most/all of these things. Armstrong is an athlete, sure, but you'd be hard-pressed to find a non-endurance-intensive sport in which he'd be in the top percentiles. Semantics, I guess, but this question sure did bring out the cycling freaks.
posted by Kwantsar at 11:41 AM PST on August 29 [!]
What a truly stupid argument. Can Deion (a football player) drive a sled 40 yards? No? So he's not an athlete! I know for a fact Michael Jordan doesn't know how to swim. Not an athlete! Bo Jackson? Couldn't put a slapshot in the back of the net to save his life. Not an athlete! Kevin McHale can't even skate! Not an athlete! Ever seen John Elway pole-vault? Not an athlete!
Dumb.
posted by sic at 3:39 PM on August 29, 2005
posted by Kwantsar at 11:41 AM PST on August 29 [!]
What a truly stupid argument. Can Deion (a football player) drive a sled 40 yards? No? So he's not an athlete! I know for a fact Michael Jordan doesn't know how to swim. Not an athlete! Bo Jackson? Couldn't put a slapshot in the back of the net to save his life. Not an athlete! Kevin McHale can't even skate! Not an athlete! Ever seen John Elway pole-vault? Not an athlete!
Dumb.
posted by sic at 3:39 PM on August 29, 2005
While I agree with all the "Cyclists are athletes." arguments, you asked for help making your point.
I think you didn't convince your coworker because your definition was too generic for him. With that definition I am an athlete (and a mathlete, Hildago). I'll bet he's looking to rank the sports and their participants. He probably has some personal bias for ball sport participants.
Can Lance Armstrong play ball sports? No, he has said he sucks at those. If your coworker believes only ball sport participants are "athletes" you'll never convince him Armstrong is an athlete.
Ask him for his definition of "athlete" and then see if Armstrong fits that criteria. Then you'll convince him. Unless, of course, he's a pig-headed fool.
posted by ?! at 5:00 PM on August 29, 2005
I think you didn't convince your coworker because your definition was too generic for him. With that definition I am an athlete (and a mathlete, Hildago). I'll bet he's looking to rank the sports and their participants. He probably has some personal bias for ball sport participants.
Can Lance Armstrong play ball sports? No, he has said he sucks at those. If your coworker believes only ball sport participants are "athletes" you'll never convince him Armstrong is an athlete.
Ask him for his definition of "athlete" and then see if Armstrong fits that criteria. Then you'll convince him. Unless, of course, he's a pig-headed fool.
posted by ?! at 5:00 PM on August 29, 2005
This whole discussion is very interesting, but what's the point?
SHOW ME THE MONEY. How much does Lance make? Surely he's not in the same league as real athletes like [insert names of four or five well-paid players here]. (And yes, I have no clue).
posted by sneebler at 5:33 PM on August 29, 2005
SHOW ME THE MONEY. How much does Lance make? Surely he's not in the same league as real athletes like [insert names of four or five well-paid players here]. (And yes, I have no clue).
posted by sneebler at 5:33 PM on August 29, 2005
I'm not sure anyone outside of Lance Armstrong's immediate management know exactly how much he makes, but at one time he was advertising Subaru cars all over Europe and the US, so I think it's safe to say he's done ok.
posted by normy at 6:51 PM on August 29, 2005
posted by normy at 6:51 PM on August 29, 2005
Coyle: It's the hardest event on the planet: nothing comes close
Hah! Le Tour is for wimps, see, they stop every day. Real [1] athletes ride RAMM.
Note. Nothing in the above is to imply that I don't think Tour Cyclists aren't incredible athelets. Hell, they have the same stupid cells when it comes to injury as football players, see Tyler Hamliton's record while racing with freshly broken collarbone (3rd, Giro, 4th, TdF.) Bo don't do *shit* with a busted wing. Tyler busts out a 90km solo break -- in the mountains -- to win a stage. You trying climbing without using your arms and chest.
SHOW ME THE MONEY.
Ok. How about $28 million?
[1] insert "fucking insane" here.
posted by eriko at 6:59 PM on August 29, 2005
Hah! Le Tour is for wimps, see, they stop every day. Real [1] athletes ride RAMM.
Note. Nothing in the above is to imply that I don't think Tour Cyclists aren't incredible athelets. Hell, they have the same stupid cells when it comes to injury as football players, see Tyler Hamliton's record while racing with freshly broken collarbone (3rd, Giro, 4th, TdF.) Bo don't do *shit* with a busted wing. Tyler busts out a 90km solo break -- in the mountains -- to win a stage. You trying climbing without using your arms and chest.
SHOW ME THE MONEY.
Ok. How about $28 million?
[1] insert "fucking insane" here.
posted by eriko at 6:59 PM on August 29, 2005
You don't even need to play the Lance card to prove that cyclists are athletes.
If you live in an urban area, just take a few moments to observe the bike messengers. Here, in Philly, they've become a pretty substantial subculture. Using single gear bikes, with no breaks, they dodge through traffic in all weather carrying packages the size of sails (a friend of mine just biked across town with a 3ft by 4ft painting on his back. In the wind.)
Periodically, they hold a "bike messenger challenge." It only lasts a day but the route is probably a total of over 50 miles through the greater Philadelphia region, including Manyunk which is famous for a street dubbed "the wall" which is even a challenge to drive up, let alone bike. It's totally unsanctioned so there's no closed course and much of the route is in high traffic areas. The hardest part about the messenger challenge is that they do the whole course with a cinderblock in their bag.
Yeah, so anyone can ride a bike. But can you do it through traffic in rush hour, dodging taxis, trucks, and pedestrians with a cinderblock strapped to your back? If that doesn't take focus, stamina, skill, daring, and agility I don't know what does.
posted by Jon-o at 10:20 PM on August 29, 2005
If you live in an urban area, just take a few moments to observe the bike messengers. Here, in Philly, they've become a pretty substantial subculture. Using single gear bikes, with no breaks, they dodge through traffic in all weather carrying packages the size of sails (a friend of mine just biked across town with a 3ft by 4ft painting on his back. In the wind.)
Periodically, they hold a "bike messenger challenge." It only lasts a day but the route is probably a total of over 50 miles through the greater Philadelphia region, including Manyunk which is famous for a street dubbed "the wall" which is even a challenge to drive up, let alone bike. It's totally unsanctioned so there's no closed course and much of the route is in high traffic areas. The hardest part about the messenger challenge is that they do the whole course with a cinderblock in their bag.
Yeah, so anyone can ride a bike. But can you do it through traffic in rush hour, dodging taxis, trucks, and pedestrians with a cinderblock strapped to your back? If that doesn't take focus, stamina, skill, daring, and agility I don't know what does.
posted by Jon-o at 10:20 PM on August 29, 2005
I have been a cyclist for a long time and even raced some a few years back. I have a pretty good idea of what it takes to be a successful top racer. I did make it far enough to race against Greg LeMonde a few times (he won). I suggest Sportsguy, the "obvious couch potato" should get off his butt and go join the local bike club... train hard a few months and then see if he can even pedal a century in under 4 hours. The guy is an idiot without a clue. Try cycling on even the amature level and you will quickly realize this is a demanding athletic sport... Wimps and assholes get dropped in a hurry. As for Lance being a genetic freak... Not really, although hes well suited to the sport. What he does have is amazing stamina and the will to train harder and smarter than the rest of the pack. This is what has made him the greatest cyclest in the world.
posted by Podunkfla at 4:16 PM on September 22, 2005
posted by Podunkfla at 4:16 PM on September 22, 2005
Here's how I'd convince him:
I'd invite Sports Guy to come out for an average Thursday night training ride 2 weeks from now with a local bike club.
I'll let him train any way he wants to from now til the ride. I'll give him the best bike in the world, with the best gear.
I'll invite George Hincapie to be his personal domestique to shield him from the wind.
I'll invite Lance's team director, Johan Bruyneel, to ride along beside him, screaming encouragement the whole time.
I'll have Sheryl Crow waiting at the finish.
I'll personally pump his veins so full of EPO that his blood is oxygenated to the point of flammability.
I'll give him a 5 minute head start...
...and then I'll laugh my head off as the Cat 4/5 group drops him like a bad habit 10 minutes later.
After Sports Guy recovers (or should I say IF), I'll remind him that a Cat 4/5 bike racer like the ones that blew past him, as he gasped for breath like a dying trout on the side of the road, wouldn't make it through one half hour of one stage of the Tour de France. That, in fact, a Cat 4/5 could barely hang on to the back of a Pro training ride on flat terrain. That, in fact, a Cat 4/5 racer would have a hard time following a Pro descending an Alp or Pyrenean peak in a car.
Then I'd remind him that there are 21 stages of the Tour. That they get 2 days off. And that they race in the heat (100 degrees F), the cold (well below freezing), the rain, wind, sleet, and snow. And that the Tour comes after 3 or 4 months of racing, and six months of training, and a lifetime of suffering.
If he's not convinced then, then you won't convince him. And, you know, that's fine. You'll have fun trying.
posted by fearless_yakov at 4:38 PM on September 26, 2005
I'd invite Sports Guy to come out for an average Thursday night training ride 2 weeks from now with a local bike club.
I'll let him train any way he wants to from now til the ride. I'll give him the best bike in the world, with the best gear.
I'll invite George Hincapie to be his personal domestique to shield him from the wind.
I'll invite Lance's team director, Johan Bruyneel, to ride along beside him, screaming encouragement the whole time.
I'll have Sheryl Crow waiting at the finish.
I'll personally pump his veins so full of EPO that his blood is oxygenated to the point of flammability.
I'll give him a 5 minute head start...
...and then I'll laugh my head off as the Cat 4/5 group drops him like a bad habit 10 minutes later.
After Sports Guy recovers (or should I say IF), I'll remind him that a Cat 4/5 bike racer like the ones that blew past him, as he gasped for breath like a dying trout on the side of the road, wouldn't make it through one half hour of one stage of the Tour de France. That, in fact, a Cat 4/5 could barely hang on to the back of a Pro training ride on flat terrain. That, in fact, a Cat 4/5 racer would have a hard time following a Pro descending an Alp or Pyrenean peak in a car.
Then I'd remind him that there are 21 stages of the Tour. That they get 2 days off. And that they race in the heat (100 degrees F), the cold (well below freezing), the rain, wind, sleet, and snow. And that the Tour comes after 3 or 4 months of racing, and six months of training, and a lifetime of suffering.
If he's not convinced then, then you won't convince him. And, you know, that's fine. You'll have fun trying.
posted by fearless_yakov at 4:38 PM on September 26, 2005
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posted by exogenous at 5:51 AM on August 29, 2005