How to keep this friend of a friend away from me?
November 3, 2012 4:21 PM Subscribe
Really wish my friend would stop bringing a particular person to events I invite her to. How would you handle this?
Everyone in this question is in their late twenties.
Background: In the past year I had former friends do extremely shocking and bad things to me. I came to terms with it, and realized the warning signs were always there, and I never even liked some of these people from the beginning. But had continued being friends because I didn't want to be "judgmental" and wanted to focus on the best side of them. Since then I have made a huge effort to fix my life by applying these lessons. I only keep people in my life who are consistently good people, who don't give off red flags and warning signs.
My issue: I have a friend "Rose" who is the sweetest girl in the world. She is kind, caring, always tries to help people, and never says a bad word about anyone. She doesn't like it when people talk about having problems with others, and she avoids those conversations. She says she just doesn't want to participate in negative conversations about anyone. Since I have pretty much been making all-new groups of friends in the past year, Rose has started to become one of my better friends, and I have started to invite her to things I do with different groups of people.
In the past few weeks Rose just made a new friend called "Lisa" who just moved to the area. Rose is trying to help Lisa meet people here.
I told Rose I met a new guy Matt, and I was really interested in him. Rose and I decided to get a group of friends together at an event downtown and I invited Matt. Lisa came.
Within the first 5 minutes of when Matt arrived and I introduced him to the group, Lisa latched on to him like a barracuda. I had never seen anything like it in my whole life before. She kept standing herself in between him and me. She kept pulling him over to look at different things around the event. A few minutes later he excused himself to go get a drink.
Lisa looked over to me and said, "I have to ask you. Is anything going on with you and him?" I said, "We just met a little while ago, and I am very interested in him." She said "how long?" and I told her a month. But when Matt came back nothing changed. She asked for his number right in front of me! We all went out to drinks after the event and she sat as close to his as she could, with her hand on her chin staring into his eyes, and she kept asking to drink from his glass. I sat on the other side of him and she kept trying to keep him turned towards her. Whenever he and I would start talking about something, she would loudly interrupt and insert something about herself. Whenever he and I would start talking about anything we had in common, she would bring up how she had that in common too and MORE so than I did.
Now just in case it's relevant I do not think that Matt was interested in her at all, and I think that he was being a polite guy. (I didn't tell anyone about this, but Matt has a "type" for dating that is pretty much his very strong preference, and Lisa happens not to fall into that type. Plus he just did not seem that interested in her apart from that). And either way the point is not really about Matt and who he is interested in and what happens with him.
The point is that I do not want someone who act like this in my life, period. I found it SHOCKING that I would bring a guy out who I was interested in, and Lisa was aware of that, and she would still ask for his number right in front of me, start sipping from his glass, touching his arms, staring at him, dominating conversations with him. I do not want anyone in my life who would act like that period. Who would act with total disregard for me like that. Like everything is just "fair game" in life and it's not important to care about other people and how they feel.
The problem:
Tomorrow I had organized a hike with a bunch of friends from my hiking group, including Matt. Following that the plan is to get dinner together. I invited Rose, and Rose invited Lisa. This was before I met Lisa so I had said of course she is welcome to come.
I have had an incredibly shitty and stressful week and I was really, really looking forward to this outing, which I completely organized and planned. I really do not want Lisa there at all. I do not want to spend the entire day with her, hiking and then doing dinner.
Is there anything I can do?? How can I handle this?? I was thinking of calling Rose and just expressing my concern about Lisa and the way she acted when we were out the other night. But remember Rose really hates negative conversations about anyone and is always trying to avoid them. I am really worried that she would get really upset. I know that the idea of hurting Lisa's feelings in any way or making Lisa feel unwelcome would really upset her. If you have had a friend like Rose before, have you ever found a good way to deal with an issue like this, where they see the best in someone that you really do not feel good around?
Also, I have invited Rose to events with my hiking group several times, and lately she's been talking about joining the group. Before I thought this was awesome. But now I am thinking "oh great, and now she'll bring Lisa to join the group too." Everyone in the group is super open and friendly and welcoming, and obviously I would never try to say who could and couldn't be included or try to stop it. But I just feel really sick because I LOVE that group and I feel really happy with them, and having this kind of presence there would just really suck.
How would you handle this? Remember this is not about Matt at all. I don't even know if I will end up dating him myself in the end because we just started getting to know each other. The point is that I don't want someone in my life who seems this untrustworthy and blatantly uncaring about what they do and how it affects others, and is so aggressive about it. I don't want her becoming a part of my life, working her way into my other friend groups, because I don't think this behavior would just be limited to Matt, or even situations involving guys in general.
Everyone in this question is in their late twenties.
Background: In the past year I had former friends do extremely shocking and bad things to me. I came to terms with it, and realized the warning signs were always there, and I never even liked some of these people from the beginning. But had continued being friends because I didn't want to be "judgmental" and wanted to focus on the best side of them. Since then I have made a huge effort to fix my life by applying these lessons. I only keep people in my life who are consistently good people, who don't give off red flags and warning signs.
My issue: I have a friend "Rose" who is the sweetest girl in the world. She is kind, caring, always tries to help people, and never says a bad word about anyone. She doesn't like it when people talk about having problems with others, and she avoids those conversations. She says she just doesn't want to participate in negative conversations about anyone. Since I have pretty much been making all-new groups of friends in the past year, Rose has started to become one of my better friends, and I have started to invite her to things I do with different groups of people.
In the past few weeks Rose just made a new friend called "Lisa" who just moved to the area. Rose is trying to help Lisa meet people here.
I told Rose I met a new guy Matt, and I was really interested in him. Rose and I decided to get a group of friends together at an event downtown and I invited Matt. Lisa came.
Within the first 5 minutes of when Matt arrived and I introduced him to the group, Lisa latched on to him like a barracuda. I had never seen anything like it in my whole life before. She kept standing herself in between him and me. She kept pulling him over to look at different things around the event. A few minutes later he excused himself to go get a drink.
Lisa looked over to me and said, "I have to ask you. Is anything going on with you and him?" I said, "We just met a little while ago, and I am very interested in him." She said "how long?" and I told her a month. But when Matt came back nothing changed. She asked for his number right in front of me! We all went out to drinks after the event and she sat as close to his as she could, with her hand on her chin staring into his eyes, and she kept asking to drink from his glass. I sat on the other side of him and she kept trying to keep him turned towards her. Whenever he and I would start talking about something, she would loudly interrupt and insert something about herself. Whenever he and I would start talking about anything we had in common, she would bring up how she had that in common too and MORE so than I did.
Now just in case it's relevant I do not think that Matt was interested in her at all, and I think that he was being a polite guy. (I didn't tell anyone about this, but Matt has a "type" for dating that is pretty much his very strong preference, and Lisa happens not to fall into that type. Plus he just did not seem that interested in her apart from that). And either way the point is not really about Matt and who he is interested in and what happens with him.
The point is that I do not want someone who act like this in my life, period. I found it SHOCKING that I would bring a guy out who I was interested in, and Lisa was aware of that, and she would still ask for his number right in front of me, start sipping from his glass, touching his arms, staring at him, dominating conversations with him. I do not want anyone in my life who would act like that period. Who would act with total disregard for me like that. Like everything is just "fair game" in life and it's not important to care about other people and how they feel.
The problem:
Tomorrow I had organized a hike with a bunch of friends from my hiking group, including Matt. Following that the plan is to get dinner together. I invited Rose, and Rose invited Lisa. This was before I met Lisa so I had said of course she is welcome to come.
I have had an incredibly shitty and stressful week and I was really, really looking forward to this outing, which I completely organized and planned. I really do not want Lisa there at all. I do not want to spend the entire day with her, hiking and then doing dinner.
Is there anything I can do?? How can I handle this?? I was thinking of calling Rose and just expressing my concern about Lisa and the way she acted when we were out the other night. But remember Rose really hates negative conversations about anyone and is always trying to avoid them. I am really worried that she would get really upset. I know that the idea of hurting Lisa's feelings in any way or making Lisa feel unwelcome would really upset her. If you have had a friend like Rose before, have you ever found a good way to deal with an issue like this, where they see the best in someone that you really do not feel good around?
Also, I have invited Rose to events with my hiking group several times, and lately she's been talking about joining the group. Before I thought this was awesome. But now I am thinking "oh great, and now she'll bring Lisa to join the group too." Everyone in the group is super open and friendly and welcoming, and obviously I would never try to say who could and couldn't be included or try to stop it. But I just feel really sick because I LOVE that group and I feel really happy with them, and having this kind of presence there would just really suck.
How would you handle this? Remember this is not about Matt at all. I don't even know if I will end up dating him myself in the end because we just started getting to know each other. The point is that I don't want someone in my life who seems this untrustworthy and blatantly uncaring about what they do and how it affects others, and is so aggressive about it. I don't want her becoming a part of my life, working her way into my other friend groups, because I don't think this behavior would just be limited to Matt, or even situations involving guys in general.
I'd give Lisa a few more chances. Yes, what she did wasn't cool. But you've described some key points here that make it seem possible this was situational--a lapse caused by a bewilderingly strong, sudden crush. Maybe Lisa surprised even herself.
Rather than badmouth her to Rose, I'd let her know it's going to be uncomfortable to you if Lisa spends this time trying to pick up Matt. It won't change anything, but it's concrete, future-oriented, and completely true, which puts Rose on notice about mixing you and Lisa together without Rose having to hear or make judgments about Lisa.
posted by Monsieur Caution at 4:33 PM on November 3, 2012 [1 favorite]
Rather than badmouth her to Rose, I'd let her know it's going to be uncomfortable to you if Lisa spends this time trying to pick up Matt. It won't change anything, but it's concrete, future-oriented, and completely true, which puts Rose on notice about mixing you and Lisa together without Rose having to hear or make judgments about Lisa.
posted by Monsieur Caution at 4:33 PM on November 3, 2012 [1 favorite]
If you are organizing the events, I don’t think it's unreasonable to politely tell Rose that you "are uncomfortable with Lisa and would rather not have her invited." Tell this to Rose every time you invite her somewhere until she gets the message. If Rose really isn’t the type of person to get into negative conversations, she wont question you on this. If she does, you can always go with the infamous "it just won't be possible" line.
Entertaining Lisa is a project that Rose has taken on, not you. You are not required to put up with people that are sudo invited to events that you are hosting, and it's perfectly reasonable for you to make it known that when you invite Rose out, it's an "invitation for one".
Go with your gut, if she makes you miserable for any reason, don't let her be invited to your events.
posted by Shouraku at 4:35 PM on November 3, 2012 [3 favorites]
Entertaining Lisa is a project that Rose has taken on, not you. You are not required to put up with people that are sudo invited to events that you are hosting, and it's perfectly reasonable for you to make it known that when you invite Rose out, it's an "invitation for one".
Go with your gut, if she makes you miserable for any reason, don't let her be invited to your events.
posted by Shouraku at 4:35 PM on November 3, 2012 [3 favorites]
Next time you all hang out try to act interested in Lisa. It may suck, but it seems like she likes attention. I'm not saying only stick with her on the hike but if she comes up to talk with Matt and you, talk with her about anything. She is trying to make new friends and just has a different way of making them and some people are touchy feely but it doesn't mean anything.
posted by Autumn89 at 4:36 PM on November 3, 2012
posted by Autumn89 at 4:36 PM on November 3, 2012
You seem really personally offended by Lisa's behavior and I'm not sure why. If this woman is always as blatant as you describe, other people will be on to her pretty soon, too, and the group overall will shift how they handle her. Or you'll meet her again and find out she was having one drunk, lonely night. Either way, if it really isn't about Matt*, I don't see why having someone you don't like at big group events is that big of a deal. Just say hi, go talk to other people.
*If Matt shut her down last time, she's probably not going to throw herself at him again, so she'll either behave herself or throw herself at someone you're not interested in.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 4:37 PM on November 3, 2012 [7 favorites]
*If Matt shut her down last time, she's probably not going to throw herself at him again, so she'll either behave herself or throw herself at someone you're not interested in.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 4:37 PM on November 3, 2012 [7 favorites]
You don't have to be negative to Rose - "Hey, I was uncomfortable with the way Lisa acted around Matt the other night, since she knows I'm interested in him. Since Matt is coming along on this trip, I'd really prefer that Lisa not come." You aren't condemning Lisa as a person, just pointing out some problematic behavior. You might want to just call Lisa yourself and tell her - I think that's only fair, since making Rose do it would put her in a terrible position - but this girl sounds toxic and I would drop that business fast. Seriously, who does that?
* On preview, people who are desperate for attention! But personally, I don't usually want those people around either. Look, you are organizing these events and you are entitled to leave out people who behave inappropriately.
posted by goodbyewaffles at 4:40 PM on November 3, 2012
* On preview, people who are desperate for attention! But personally, I don't usually want those people around either. Look, you are organizing these events and you are entitled to leave out people who behave inappropriately.
posted by goodbyewaffles at 4:40 PM on November 3, 2012
I think if the hike is tomorrow, and it was organised more than about 5 days ago, it is too late to disinvite Lisa without being an asshole. If you find that after the hike tomorrow you still can't stand the idea of Lisa being around, then tell Rose for the next event you organise that Lisa is not invited. You can't prevent Rose from bringing Lisa to events you don't organise, obviously.
In the more long term, if you're not willing to actively exclude people from your social groups (as indicated when you say obviously I would never try to say who could and couldn't be included or try to stop it.) then you need to work on your own ability to be around people you think are not good to have in your life, or be willing to simply drop out of groups and events as soon as someone you don't like joins. I think this last option is a terrible doormat choice and you should either stand up for yourself and exclude her or grow up and put up with her.
posted by jacalata at 4:44 PM on November 3, 2012 [17 favorites]
In the more long term, if you're not willing to actively exclude people from your social groups (as indicated when you say obviously I would never try to say who could and couldn't be included or try to stop it.) then you need to work on your own ability to be around people you think are not good to have in your life, or be willing to simply drop out of groups and events as soon as someone you don't like joins. I think this last option is a terrible doormat choice and you should either stand up for yourself and exclude her or grow up and put up with her.
posted by jacalata at 4:44 PM on November 3, 2012 [17 favorites]
Remember this is not about Matt at all.
Hmmm, I think it kinda is really. I don't know, this is a super long question for a relatively trivial social faux pas, I feel. If there's going to be a lot of people on the hike, I would suggest you don't worry about it, rather than making it a "thing".
I have a feeling you might have been stewing about this incident a lot since it's happened; Lisa has probably done no such thing and may not even be aware that you "despise" her.
It sounds like you feel a little insecure about yourself and the security of your friendships, and the possibility of Matt being interested in Lisa (or anyone else). If you're comfortable and confident, you don't have to worry about anyone else's behaviour, and I think the best thing to do in this situation is decide, for yourself, that you're going to have a lovely day hiking.
Having Lisa tag along on a hiking trip is not really "having someone in [your] life", truly it's not. And maybe reserve judgment about the blatantly uncaring, aggressive etc etc. I think your past experiences have burnt you a little. Enjoy the hike, if she bothers you, tell Rose not to bring her along to future events. If you want to create a bigger drama, and indulge in some "Lisa-like" behaviour, if you will, then disinvite her. But don't make poor Rose do it. If you hate Lisa enough to disinvite her, you should do it yourself.
posted by smoke at 4:44 PM on November 3, 2012 [21 favorites]
Hmmm, I think it kinda is really. I don't know, this is a super long question for a relatively trivial social faux pas, I feel. If there's going to be a lot of people on the hike, I would suggest you don't worry about it, rather than making it a "thing".
I have a feeling you might have been stewing about this incident a lot since it's happened; Lisa has probably done no such thing and may not even be aware that you "despise" her.
It sounds like you feel a little insecure about yourself and the security of your friendships, and the possibility of Matt being interested in Lisa (or anyone else). If you're comfortable and confident, you don't have to worry about anyone else's behaviour, and I think the best thing to do in this situation is decide, for yourself, that you're going to have a lovely day hiking.
Having Lisa tag along on a hiking trip is not really "having someone in [your] life", truly it's not. And maybe reserve judgment about the blatantly uncaring, aggressive etc etc. I think your past experiences have burnt you a little. Enjoy the hike, if she bothers you, tell Rose not to bring her along to future events. If you want to create a bigger drama, and indulge in some "Lisa-like" behaviour, if you will, then disinvite her. But don't make poor Rose do it. If you hate Lisa enough to disinvite her, you should do it yourself.
posted by smoke at 4:44 PM on November 3, 2012 [21 favorites]
I think you should give her one more shot but the bigger issue is the dichotomy between
"Everyone in the group is super open and friendly and welcoming, and obviously I would never try to say who could and couldn't be included or try to stop it." and your question.
You need to figure out which is more important to you. It's not "obvious". It's a decision you made that is causing you grief because it doesn't line up with what you want out of your life. Realizing that might help. Nothing of the rules you live your life by is as set in stone as we often believe it is.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 4:50 PM on November 3, 2012 [1 favorite]
"Everyone in the group is super open and friendly and welcoming, and obviously I would never try to say who could and couldn't be included or try to stop it." and your question.
You need to figure out which is more important to you. It's not "obvious". It's a decision you made that is causing you grief because it doesn't line up with what you want out of your life. Realizing that might help. Nothing of the rules you live your life by is as set in stone as we often believe it is.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 4:50 PM on November 3, 2012 [1 favorite]
Lisa sabotaged you and knowingly got in the way of something you really wanted. That makes her your enemy. You don't have any responsibility to "play nice" with your enemies - that's why they're called enemies. You should feel entirely comfortable in using any and all power you have to evict them from your presence, or failing that, to get the upper hand over them.
In my opinion, the best option (in terms of minimizing fallout) is to tell Rose exactly what you told us, tell her that she needs to uninvite Lisa from this hike, and that generally you don't want Lisa invited to anything that you invite Rose to. If that doesn't work, talk to people in your social circle one-on-one and gradually build up a consensus of Lisa being a horrible person (but don't take direct action against her until you are positive that she is a social outcast). This may not undo the damage she's done, but it'll make it much more difficult for her to interfere with your future plans, which is a decent compromise.
posted by wolfdreams01 at 5:09 PM on November 3, 2012 [7 favorites]
In my opinion, the best option (in terms of minimizing fallout) is to tell Rose exactly what you told us, tell her that she needs to uninvite Lisa from this hike, and that generally you don't want Lisa invited to anything that you invite Rose to. If that doesn't work, talk to people in your social circle one-on-one and gradually build up a consensus of Lisa being a horrible person (but don't take direct action against her until you are positive that she is a social outcast). This may not undo the damage she's done, but it'll make it much more difficult for her to interfere with your future plans, which is a decent compromise.
posted by wolfdreams01 at 5:09 PM on November 3, 2012 [7 favorites]
If the hike is tomorrow, it's a little late to be uninviting her. But you might want to call Rose and tell her that Lisa's attitude was not cool and you absolutely do not appreciate it.
posted by Neekee at 5:11 PM on November 3, 2012 [5 favorites]
posted by Neekee at 5:11 PM on November 3, 2012 [5 favorites]
What about a middle ground and telling Rose that Lisa made you uncomfortable and since she is bringing Lisa she needs to take responsibility for ber invitee and redirect any negative/rude/disrespectful behaviour from Lisa to avoid ruining the day for you.
posted by saucysault at 5:19 PM on November 3, 2012 [5 favorites]
posted by saucysault at 5:19 PM on November 3, 2012 [5 favorites]
Oh god. I would probably be one of the posters telling you to be more tolerant, if I hadn't actually known someone who fit this description.
A woman in my graduate program behaved the way Lisa did around other women's male romantic interests, and that proved only the first warning sign. By the end of their first year, no woman in her class would tell her their research paper topic, because it was her custom to copy them (and to check out all the pertinent volumes from the library). Even her most minor interactions seemed to feature malicious intent, showing off, and creepy after-effect. Irritatingly, her otherwise intelligent boyfriends (including a contemporary intellectual praised on MetaFilter) took way too long to discover that yes, there was a reason all their female friends treated her like a pariah, and it wasn't 'female jealousy': she was a social con artist.
It sounds as if Lisa was incited by your own interest in Matt, i.e. that she was less interested in him per se than in discomfiting you. It's also worrying that she was introduced to your circle by someone exceptionally unwilling to listen to warnings about other people's characters.
Frankly I think you SHOULD do whatever you properly can do to prevent Lisa from infiltrating your hiking group, not just because you are uncomfortable with her (although you could use that as your excuse to Rose), but because she enjoys being invasively malicious, and your hiking group is awesome, and you want to keep it that way.
posted by feral_goldfish at 5:54 PM on November 3, 2012 [18 favorites]
A woman in my graduate program behaved the way Lisa did around other women's male romantic interests, and that proved only the first warning sign. By the end of their first year, no woman in her class would tell her their research paper topic, because it was her custom to copy them (and to check out all the pertinent volumes from the library). Even her most minor interactions seemed to feature malicious intent, showing off, and creepy after-effect. Irritatingly, her otherwise intelligent boyfriends (including a contemporary intellectual praised on MetaFilter) took way too long to discover that yes, there was a reason all their female friends treated her like a pariah, and it wasn't 'female jealousy': she was a social con artist.
It sounds as if Lisa was incited by your own interest in Matt, i.e. that she was less interested in him per se than in discomfiting you. It's also worrying that she was introduced to your circle by someone exceptionally unwilling to listen to warnings about other people's characters.
Frankly I think you SHOULD do whatever you properly can do to prevent Lisa from infiltrating your hiking group, not just because you are uncomfortable with her (although you could use that as your excuse to Rose), but because she enjoys being invasively malicious, and your hiking group is awesome, and you want to keep it that way.
posted by feral_goldfish at 5:54 PM on November 3, 2012 [18 favorites]
Option 1: call Lisa, tell her the event is cancelled. Then call Rose and tell her not to invite Lisa to stuff anymore. (From what you've said, I don't think Rose has the stones or motivation to disinvite Lisa, with a white lie or otherwise.)
Option 2: call Rose now, tell her that Lisa was really unpleasant to you the other night, and that while you're going to put up with it for the hike's duration because it's too late, Rose is not to invite Lisa to any of your events anymore. This may or may not backfire, of course.
posted by fingersandtoes at 5:55 PM on November 3, 2012 [5 favorites]
Option 2: call Rose now, tell her that Lisa was really unpleasant to you the other night, and that while you're going to put up with it for the hike's duration because it's too late, Rose is not to invite Lisa to any of your events anymore. This may or may not backfire, of course.
posted by fingersandtoes at 5:55 PM on November 3, 2012 [5 favorites]
You can't do anything about the hike now, try to have fun and be open to Lisa being a better person after a second impression, if not then just have a quick open chat with Rose about it after.
As for Lisa/Matt, also do nothing, these are adults we are talking about, it will take care of itself, likely quickly, if she wants to flirt she is free to do so, if he responds to it then he likely wasn't the one for you anyway, if she really isn't his type then this will be clear to him quickly as well.
talk to people in your social circle one-on-one and gradually build up a consensus of Lisa being a horrible person
Yuck. Don't engage in anything like this, this is what you left behind, remind yourself of that if you need to.
posted by Cosine at 5:56 PM on November 3, 2012 [4 favorites]
As for Lisa/Matt, also do nothing, these are adults we are talking about, it will take care of itself, likely quickly, if she wants to flirt she is free to do so, if he responds to it then he likely wasn't the one for you anyway, if she really isn't his type then this will be clear to him quickly as well.
talk to people in your social circle one-on-one and gradually build up a consensus of Lisa being a horrible person
Yuck. Don't engage in anything like this, this is what you left behind, remind yourself of that if you need to.
posted by Cosine at 5:56 PM on November 3, 2012 [4 favorites]
TL;DR: call Rose and tell her not to bring Lisa. You can apologize for the lateness of the notice, or whatever, but present Lisa's absence as non-negotiable, e.g. "It just won't work." It's a lot easier to keep someone out of your circle than remove them later, and Lisa sounds prone to insert her hooks into your group during the space of a hike, if only to annoy you.
posted by feral_goldfish at 6:02 PM on November 3, 2012 [8 favorites]
posted by feral_goldfish at 6:02 PM on November 3, 2012 [8 favorites]
Lisa looked over to me and said, "I have to ask you. Is anything going on with you and him?" I said, "We just met a little while ago, and I am very interested in him." She said "how long?" and I told her a month.
Pretty sure she, basically a perfect stranger at that point, asked you this to ensure that he was single, not to respect your dibs. She just met you, you just met Matt, and you hadn't yet made a move on Matt. She thought, reasonably but not super generously, that he was fair game.
At this point I'd be wary of calling Lisa, not just because of the Rose factor. Don't forget that she has Matt's number and could call him to verify-- things could get messy.
posted by acidic at 6:31 PM on November 3, 2012 [5 favorites]
Pretty sure she, basically a perfect stranger at that point, asked you this to ensure that he was single, not to respect your dibs. She just met you, you just met Matt, and you hadn't yet made a move on Matt. She thought, reasonably but not super generously, that he was fair game.
At this point I'd be wary of calling Lisa, not just because of the Rose factor. Don't forget that she has Matt's number and could call him to verify-- things could get messy.
posted by acidic at 6:31 PM on November 3, 2012 [5 favorites]
How about just straight up saying to Lisa "Yo girl, this thing called the sisterhood? You know about that, right? The other night, you violated the rule known as 'don't go after the guy your friend is after'. Sisters don't appreciate that shit. Cut it out."
Bow your neck a little and front some. She needs butting up against to learn your boundaries.
posted by roboton666 at 6:35 PM on November 3, 2012 [2 favorites]
Bow your neck a little and front some. She needs butting up against to learn your boundaries.
posted by roboton666 at 6:35 PM on November 3, 2012 [2 favorites]
And what Acidic said, that's even better to the point. You need to defend your territory.
posted by roboton666 at 6:36 PM on November 3, 2012
posted by roboton666 at 6:36 PM on November 3, 2012
Response by poster: Something I skimmed over in my question (since I wasn't sure if it was relevant but now I'm wondering if it is) was that I'm significantly heavier than Lisa. Think 50 lbs or so. Nobody there that night had any idea that my body type is Matt's type and he basically only dates people who look like me. But I've been thinking that maybe she thinks she can just push me around and throw me to the side in life, because of my size. Not just in situations with men but in life overall, this is something I've come up against many times in life.
posted by galenka at 6:44 PM on November 3, 2012
posted by galenka at 6:44 PM on November 3, 2012
I've been thinking that maybe she thinks
Stop right there. You have no idea what she thinks. You hardly even know her. Do not project your own stuff onto her and use that as an excuse to be mad at her.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:46 PM on November 3, 2012 [27 favorites]
Stop right there. You have no idea what she thinks. You hardly even know her. Do not project your own stuff onto her and use that as an excuse to be mad at her.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:46 PM on November 3, 2012 [27 favorites]
Response by poster: Yes, just to clarify, I am bothered because of the things she did, not whatever might be in her mind that I don't know about. I was just wondering if people thought that detail might be relevant.
posted by galenka at 6:48 PM on November 3, 2012
posted by galenka at 6:48 PM on November 3, 2012
I don't know if your body size/being Matt's type is really relevant. If Lisa ain't Matt's type of girl, that's less skin off your back.
First of all, I agree with others that this is about Matt. Not necessarily entirely, but clearly you have some territorial concerns about him. Have you moved that forward at all? I know it can be scary, but that might help ease your mind regarding a lot of things.
Lisa sounds like a social idiot. The type of girl who pulls stuff like that because she gets away with it and nobody tells them it's obnoxious. So I think it's fair to let her know that's not cool. People like her drive me insane, but they can also be a good litmus test with others (usually guys). I really doubt any of her stuff is meant as a personal slight to you at all. It has nothing to do with you, you're just fodder. The problem is that it's pushing your insecurity buttons (which we all have).
So I would uninvite her for tomorrow. Apologize to Rose about the late notice, but make it clear you don't want Lisa there. If you are around Lisa in the future, remember it probably isn't anything about you, and try to just avoid. And if you are still worried about Matt, ask him what's up and if you want relationship, move that forward.
posted by kendrak at 6:53 PM on November 3, 2012 [1 favorite]
First of all, I agree with others that this is about Matt. Not necessarily entirely, but clearly you have some territorial concerns about him. Have you moved that forward at all? I know it can be scary, but that might help ease your mind regarding a lot of things.
Lisa sounds like a social idiot. The type of girl who pulls stuff like that because she gets away with it and nobody tells them it's obnoxious. So I think it's fair to let her know that's not cool. People like her drive me insane, but they can also be a good litmus test with others (usually guys). I really doubt any of her stuff is meant as a personal slight to you at all. It has nothing to do with you, you're just fodder. The problem is that it's pushing your insecurity buttons (which we all have).
So I would uninvite her for tomorrow. Apologize to Rose about the late notice, but make it clear you don't want Lisa there. If you are around Lisa in the future, remember it probably isn't anything about you, and try to just avoid. And if you are still worried about Matt, ask him what's up and if you want relationship, move that forward.
posted by kendrak at 6:53 PM on November 3, 2012 [1 favorite]
This sucks, but it's way too late to uninvite this Lisa woman. If she's the toxic attention needing sociopath you suspect she might be,* she will blow it out of proportion and it will be all drama for a long while. If she's actually rad and was just having a weird night and somehow misunderstood you on the Matt front, then you'll still be upping the drama because she'll think you're a bitch and probably say as much to Rose, whom will then be really uncomfortable around you both. Your best bet is to act nice and tough it out and hope that if she is indeed awful, everyone else notices. Then on your next hike you can all talk about how weird that one time was with that strange lady.
Now, with regard to future events that you organize, from the hike onward, you can and should tell Rose that you'd rather not spend any time with Lisa, that you don't need to go into it but that there's something about her that makes you think of people who've upset you in the past, etc. Then clearly tell Rose that you would appreciate it if she would refrain from inviting Lisa to tag along to the things you've invited Rose to.
*I mean this without judgement, having met women who fit this bill in my own life. I know that--for whatever reason--they exist. But I will say I've also met women who appear initially to be exactly like this and turned out to be wonderful people.
posted by emilycardigan at 6:53 PM on November 3, 2012 [1 favorite]
Now, with regard to future events that you organize, from the hike onward, you can and should tell Rose that you'd rather not spend any time with Lisa, that you don't need to go into it but that there's something about her that makes you think of people who've upset you in the past, etc. Then clearly tell Rose that you would appreciate it if she would refrain from inviting Lisa to tag along to the things you've invited Rose to.
*I mean this without judgement, having met women who fit this bill in my own life. I know that--for whatever reason--they exist. But I will say I've also met women who appear initially to be exactly like this and turned out to be wonderful people.
posted by emilycardigan at 6:53 PM on November 3, 2012 [1 favorite]
I think that you don't really have a Lisa problem. You have a Rose problem. You want Rose to be a bestie, but she's made it clear that she has a value that you are not down with: harmony over boundaries. As long as that's the case, she can't be a bestie.
Because if your friends protecting you is something central to your values right now, you might want to confront what the phrase 'it isn't for Rose' means tangibly, day to day wise. It means that you want Rose to remember not to invite Lisa to any event she goes to that you organize, perhaps even events that you don't, but attend. What do you want to happen if she does? Would you prefer she doesn't speak with her? Do you want Rose to have your back? Because you seem to be suggesting that it's okay that she doesn't - you'd like to be friends - but you will need Rose to carve out pieces of her life that you don't like.
Some people have that mindset naturally - friendship rules around what is off limits - others don't. Rose sounds like she might not.
I think it's okay for you to decide that you don't want Lisa at an event you plan. But I think you need to be okay that you may lose Rose as a close friend in the situation as well overall. If she doesn't like conflict, and you're the one putting her in a conflicted situation with her friend, she may decide she'd rather not face that over time. Uninviting your friend to something the night before isn't easy to do without explaining why - which is something that the conflict avoidant are inclined to, well, avoid.
In short, it isn't clear from your question that you are okay with this possible outcome of maintaining your boundary, since you have kind of framed this as a Lisa question, rather than simply identifying her as an entity that has revealed a fundamental weakness in your long term relationship with Rose. I think you should maintain your boundary, but also face the significance of it in terms of your relationship with Rose.
posted by anitanita at 7:17 PM on November 3, 2012 [9 favorites]
Because if your friends protecting you is something central to your values right now, you might want to confront what the phrase 'it isn't for Rose' means tangibly, day to day wise. It means that you want Rose to remember not to invite Lisa to any event she goes to that you organize, perhaps even events that you don't, but attend. What do you want to happen if she does? Would you prefer she doesn't speak with her? Do you want Rose to have your back? Because you seem to be suggesting that it's okay that she doesn't - you'd like to be friends - but you will need Rose to carve out pieces of her life that you don't like.
Some people have that mindset naturally - friendship rules around what is off limits - others don't. Rose sounds like she might not.
I think it's okay for you to decide that you don't want Lisa at an event you plan. But I think you need to be okay that you may lose Rose as a close friend in the situation as well overall. If she doesn't like conflict, and you're the one putting her in a conflicted situation with her friend, she may decide she'd rather not face that over time. Uninviting your friend to something the night before isn't easy to do without explaining why - which is something that the conflict avoidant are inclined to, well, avoid.
In short, it isn't clear from your question that you are okay with this possible outcome of maintaining your boundary, since you have kind of framed this as a Lisa question, rather than simply identifying her as an entity that has revealed a fundamental weakness in your long term relationship with Rose. I think you should maintain your boundary, but also face the significance of it in terms of your relationship with Rose.
posted by anitanita at 7:17 PM on November 3, 2012 [9 favorites]
The Matt thing and the Lisa thing are separate issues. Don't like Lisa? Tell Rose she can't invite Lisa anymore because she's an obnoxious attention whore and therefore not a good fit with your group. Rose can shop Lisa around to other friend groups if she wants. If Rose's idea of being a suuuuper nice person means subjecting her friends to assholes, then she's not really that nice.
As for Matt, he's not yours. Who cares if you're his type and Lisa's not? Maybe you're his physical type but he's not interested in you anyway. If you like him, tell him and let him decide if he wants to be with you. If he likes you back, it's a win! If he doesn't, then you won't waste anymore time worrying about female competition while waiting for him to notice you.
posted by keep it under cover at 7:20 PM on November 3, 2012 [2 favorites]
As for Matt, he's not yours. Who cares if you're his type and Lisa's not? Maybe you're his physical type but he's not interested in you anyway. If you like him, tell him and let him decide if he wants to be with you. If he likes you back, it's a win! If he doesn't, then you won't waste anymore time worrying about female competition while waiting for him to notice you.
posted by keep it under cover at 7:20 PM on November 3, 2012 [2 favorites]
You might want to at least consider that in the time lapse since this first encounter Lisa and Matt might have hooked up or at least started a phone flirtation.
posted by SweetTeaAndABiscuit at 7:58 PM on November 3, 2012 [3 favorites]
posted by SweetTeaAndABiscuit at 7:58 PM on November 3, 2012 [3 favorites]
Stop right there. You have no idea what she thinks. You hardly even know her. Do not project your own stuff onto her and use that as an excuse to be mad at her.
Yeah, you're really projecting here.
If you were secure in your own skin then her actions would appear ludicrous and not a real threat. Either her actions are as over the top as you describe and that is clear to EVERYONE or you're doing a lot of "I think she thinks" which is not good.
Just never do that.
Anyway, she asked if you were dating. You essentially said no. Did she handle it tactfully considering she's in a new group? No, but it's not the four alarm fire you're making it out to be.
Sub-note: This whole "type" thing has little to do with reality.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 11:30 PM on November 3, 2012 [2 favorites]
Yeah, you're really projecting here.
If you were secure in your own skin then her actions would appear ludicrous and not a real threat. Either her actions are as over the top as you describe and that is clear to EVERYONE or you're doing a lot of "I think she thinks" which is not good.
Just never do that.
Anyway, she asked if you were dating. You essentially said no. Did she handle it tactfully considering she's in a new group? No, but it's not the four alarm fire you're making it out to be.
Sub-note: This whole "type" thing has little to do with reality.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 11:30 PM on November 3, 2012 [2 favorites]
I agree that what Lisa did wrt to Matt was not cool to you...if you guys were friends. You just met her. No one is as pro Don't Cockblock Your Friend as I am but...you and Lisa aren't actually friends. She's not behaving like she wants to be your friend for sure, and you don't need to hang out with her, but you also can't really get too butthurt that someone you barely know decided to flirt with a dude that you like.
She for sure sounds like a pain in the ass, and if shes looking to make loads of girlfriends, this isn't a great start, but that's her problem. If I were you I would be civil but that's it on this hike. Because people like Rose, who hate conflict, actually are generally pretty attuned to when it is brewing, and she may well notice that you two aren't a friend match and stop trying to make it happen anyway. I am all for communication but more often than you think, stuff like this works itself out without you having to orchestrate a complicated plot.
If you like Matt, ask him for a drink. Stressing out that some new girl is going to "steal" him is going to lead only to angst on your part, you know?
posted by Countess Sandwich at 11:49 PM on November 3, 2012 [2 favorites]
She for sure sounds like a pain in the ass, and if shes looking to make loads of girlfriends, this isn't a great start, but that's her problem. If I were you I would be civil but that's it on this hike. Because people like Rose, who hate conflict, actually are generally pretty attuned to when it is brewing, and she may well notice that you two aren't a friend match and stop trying to make it happen anyway. I am all for communication but more often than you think, stuff like this works itself out without you having to orchestrate a complicated plot.
If you like Matt, ask him for a drink. Stressing out that some new girl is going to "steal" him is going to lead only to angst on your part, you know?
posted by Countess Sandwich at 11:49 PM on November 3, 2012 [2 favorites]
Remember this is not about Matt at all
But it so is. The sole reason you don't like her is that she blatantly flirted with a guy you like.
Try looking at things from her perspective, you get invited out to a group event and there's a total hottie there so you flirt with him and then one of the other girls is giving you evils so you check he's not taken and he's not.
You've known each other for a month and neither of you has made a move so she considers him fair game. For all she knows, he isn't interested in you at all, why should she miss out on a guy she really likes just because you've got your hypothetical dibs on him? Chicks before dicks doesn't really apply - she's not your friend, you'd never met her before.
If you're 100% certain that she isn't his type then this shouldn't bother you - it should be funny. If there is no chance he would be interested then she's just embarrassing herself. If I were Matt maybe it would be annoying, has he said anything about her?
Also, ask Matt out already ffs. You can get to know him and date at the same time.
posted by missmagenta at 1:29 AM on November 4, 2012 [11 favorites]
But it so is. The sole reason you don't like her is that she blatantly flirted with a guy you like.
Try looking at things from her perspective, you get invited out to a group event and there's a total hottie there so you flirt with him and then one of the other girls is giving you evils so you check he's not taken and he's not.
You've known each other for a month and neither of you has made a move so she considers him fair game. For all she knows, he isn't interested in you at all, why should she miss out on a guy she really likes just because you've got your hypothetical dibs on him? Chicks before dicks doesn't really apply - she's not your friend, you'd never met her before.
If you're 100% certain that she isn't his type then this shouldn't bother you - it should be funny. If there is no chance he would be interested then she's just embarrassing herself. If I were Matt maybe it would be annoying, has he said anything about her?
Also, ask Matt out already ffs. You can get to know him and date at the same time.
posted by missmagenta at 1:29 AM on November 4, 2012 [11 favorites]
You really should ask him out already. Even if just a, "hey Matt, if you ever want to go do [insert activity you both like] just let me know, because that would be fun."
If not, all your group activities could be construed as you wanting him just as a friend. Start texting him, calling him just to chat.
posted by Neekee at 7:50 AM on November 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
If not, all your group activities could be construed as you wanting him just as a friend. Start texting him, calling him just to chat.
posted by Neekee at 7:50 AM on November 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
If you invite Rose to an event, you can tell her, politely, that you don't enjoy Lisa's company, and would prefer that Rose not extend the invitation. You can't do anything about Rose and/or Lisa joining a group you're in. If she's a jerk, if she gloms on to guys, people will figure it out on their own. I recommend being especially polite to Lisa, in the way one would be polite to a child or an alien, and otherwise ignoring her. All your life, there will be incredibly annoying people who you cannot control, and must endure. Might as well learn to cope.
posted by theora55 at 10:37 AM on November 4, 2012
posted by theora55 at 10:37 AM on November 4, 2012
This is, at least partly, about Matt. If Matt likes you he will make a move and if Lisa is as obnoxious as you say, he will quickly grow to detest and avoid her, possibly even seek out your company as the only effective form of relief. Take a step back and let him come to you. He either likes you or he doesn't, Lisa notwithstanding.
Lisa's only actual crime is to go for someone after ascertaining that he was single. She showed an entire lack of tact and regard for your feelings in the process, though, which is why you have every right to detest and avoid her, but not to classify her as a social criminal.
You can't uninvite someone unless they have committed a legal or social crime against you, and if you could, now would be a very late hour to do it. You can just not invite Lisa in the future, and you can say to Rose, "Just so you know, I've decided not to invite Lisa as she's not my cup of tea." If in the face of this, Rose insists on dragging Lisa everywhere and demanding that she must be included, Rose is the social criminal and Rose is the source of all conflict whom you must exclude forthwith.
posted by tel3path at 10:45 AM on November 4, 2012
Lisa's only actual crime is to go for someone after ascertaining that he was single. She showed an entire lack of tact and regard for your feelings in the process, though, which is why you have every right to detest and avoid her, but not to classify her as a social criminal.
You can't uninvite someone unless they have committed a legal or social crime against you, and if you could, now would be a very late hour to do it. You can just not invite Lisa in the future, and you can say to Rose, "Just so you know, I've decided not to invite Lisa as she's not my cup of tea." If in the face of this, Rose insists on dragging Lisa everywhere and demanding that she must be included, Rose is the social criminal and Rose is the source of all conflict whom you must exclude forthwith.
posted by tel3path at 10:45 AM on November 4, 2012
Lisa looked over to me and said, "I have to ask you. Is anything going on with you and him?" I said, "We just met a little while ago, and I am very interested in him." She said "how long?" and I told her a month. But when Matt came back nothing changed. She asked for his number right in front of me!
So, she asked you if anything was going on between you and Matt, and you replied that there wasn't.
You don't have dibs on Matt. That's not the way the world works. Your assumption that you're his physical type and she's not, and therefore, you have the right to his attention is pretty presumptuous.
posted by ablazingsaddle at 3:15 PM on November 4, 2012 [3 favorites]
So, she asked you if anything was going on between you and Matt, and you replied that there wasn't.
You don't have dibs on Matt. That's not the way the world works. Your assumption that you're his physical type and she's not, and therefore, you have the right to his attention is pretty presumptuous.
posted by ablazingsaddle at 3:15 PM on November 4, 2012 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: Update: I decided to accept that Lisa was coming on the trip at this point, and chew over all these answers for what to do after that (thank you very very much, by the way). On the morning of the hike, when I arrived at our meeting place, Lisa and Matt were the first ones there, together. She had called him and asked for a ride. She was also wearing nothing more than a sports bra and hot pants, which was a bit shocking on a November day.
After that though, Matt ignored Lisa for the rest of the day, and she got more, and more sullen, until at the end she wasn't talking to anyone, and left early. I'm starting to think she might not be interested in this friend group now, so the problem might just resolve on its own.
posted by galenka at 8:41 AM on November 5, 2012 [10 favorites]
After that though, Matt ignored Lisa for the rest of the day, and she got more, and more sullen, until at the end she wasn't talking to anyone, and left early. I'm starting to think she might not be interested in this friend group now, so the problem might just resolve on its own.
posted by galenka at 8:41 AM on November 5, 2012 [10 favorites]
Do I get to say I told you so? ;)
Seriously though, way to go handling stuff like an adult.
posted by Cosine at 6:28 PM on November 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
Seriously though, way to go handling stuff like an adult.
posted by Cosine at 6:28 PM on November 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
Another vote for I Told You So.
Also a vote for the Matt Either Likes A. Given Girl Or He Doesn't party. I mean, if hot pants and a sports bra in November doesn't work, it's a fight against forces you can't control here. But at least you now look like the Anti-Lisa.
posted by tel3path at 3:10 PM on November 10, 2012
Also a vote for the Matt Either Likes A. Given Girl Or He Doesn't party. I mean, if hot pants and a sports bra in November doesn't work, it's a fight against forces you can't control here. But at least you now look like the Anti-Lisa.
posted by tel3path at 3:10 PM on November 10, 2012
Response by poster: Update 2: A few days later I still felt like I wanted to talk to Rose about this in some way, so I broached the topic with her very gently. Turns out, Lisa had already pissed off Rose and her roommate on two separate occasions that week that I didn't even know about. (In both cases by being extremely pushy, demanding and inconsiderate). I barely said a few words before Rose started telling me these things that Lisa had done. Rose has concluded that she and Lisa will have more of an arms-length friendship.
posted by galenka at 10:48 AM on November 24, 2012 [5 favorites]
posted by galenka at 10:48 AM on November 24, 2012 [5 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
Why on earth are you putting Rose and Lisa before yourself? Call Rose up and tell her that Lisa committed a major friendship foul, and is not welcome at any event you organize. This isn't junior high. If Rose can't see or understand that Lisa behaves badly, you don't want Rose around either.
I know this sounds really harsh, but sometimes that's the way it has to be. Be clear with Rose that this is not about her, it's about Lisa. You were willing to include her, and she blew it. End of story.
posted by ambrosia at 4:30 PM on November 3, 2012 [41 favorites]