Denial is not a river...
September 8, 2012 12:50 PM Subscribe
What do you do when the guy is In Complete Denial over his behavior with another woman?
Guy is completely and blatantly slobbering over another woman. It's totally obvious in both his body language and his conversations with her. But he won't admit it. A typical conversation is something like this:
You're drooling over her.
No, I'm not.
There's drool on your chin spilling onto the table.
No, there isn't.
He talks to her almost every day, asking her tons of questions about her life, what books she's read, whether she has any boyfriends.
You just asked her if she had any boyfriends, and when she said no, you lit up like a Christmas tree.
That's a perfectly normal question for one friend to ask another, and no, I didn't.
I even tried using taz's great advice, where I tried to say "your behavior is wrong, you may not see it but you'll just have to trust me on this." It didn't work.
You guys were talking about weightlifting at the gym the other day, comparing arm muscles, and you grabbed her arm to feel it.
That was a gesture of friendship.
You invited her on a lunchtime walk, and complimented her new toenail polish.
That was a gesture of friendship.
[from taz, verbatim] You don't have to recognize or understand or even acknowledge the dynamic of what is happening here, but you have to trust that I do, and you have to do what is needed to protect us from threat/trouble from this area.
What area? What threat?
This has been going on for more than a year, and it's driving me crazy. Whenever I try to say "if you don't want to go out with her, then stop acting like you do," he'll just say, "I'm not acting like I do. How am I doing that?" And we'll get back into wrangling over specific details like the drool on the table.
I feel like he's gaslighting me, but if I were to say that, he'd just say, "but I'm not doing anything wrong." I can't tell whether he's just in denial about his feelings, or whether it just feels normal to him to drool over what is pretty, and therefore he genuinely doesn't see anything wrong with it. But I would like to talk about it.
I know that one answer is DTMFA, but I'd like to at least have an honest conversation first. But it's hard to have an honest conversation when he's got such a wall built up around the subject. So, what can I say to him that will break through the wall?
(We're all in our late 40s, nobody involved is married.)
Guy is completely and blatantly slobbering over another woman. It's totally obvious in both his body language and his conversations with her. But he won't admit it. A typical conversation is something like this:
You're drooling over her.
No, I'm not.
There's drool on your chin spilling onto the table.
No, there isn't.
He talks to her almost every day, asking her tons of questions about her life, what books she's read, whether she has any boyfriends.
You just asked her if she had any boyfriends, and when she said no, you lit up like a Christmas tree.
That's a perfectly normal question for one friend to ask another, and no, I didn't.
I even tried using taz's great advice, where I tried to say "your behavior is wrong, you may not see it but you'll just have to trust me on this." It didn't work.
You guys were talking about weightlifting at the gym the other day, comparing arm muscles, and you grabbed her arm to feel it.
That was a gesture of friendship.
You invited her on a lunchtime walk, and complimented her new toenail polish.
That was a gesture of friendship.
[from taz, verbatim] You don't have to recognize or understand or even acknowledge the dynamic of what is happening here, but you have to trust that I do, and you have to do what is needed to protect us from threat/trouble from this area.
What area? What threat?
This has been going on for more than a year, and it's driving me crazy. Whenever I try to say "if you don't want to go out with her, then stop acting like you do," he'll just say, "I'm not acting like I do. How am I doing that?" And we'll get back into wrangling over specific details like the drool on the table.
I feel like he's gaslighting me, but if I were to say that, he'd just say, "but I'm not doing anything wrong." I can't tell whether he's just in denial about his feelings, or whether it just feels normal to him to drool over what is pretty, and therefore he genuinely doesn't see anything wrong with it. But I would like to talk about it.
I know that one answer is DTMFA, but I'd like to at least have an honest conversation first. But it's hard to have an honest conversation when he's got such a wall built up around the subject. So, what can I say to him that will break through the wall?
(We're all in our late 40s, nobody involved is married.)
Well, I went through this with a guy. All of us adults, sitting at a table, and him stroking her arm or leg, and I was like WTF dude? And eventually I worked out that he didn't want to be with me, despite being committed and living together and then getting married, he had only done it under pressure from his family.
And it was gaslighting yeah, he was trying to cover his skeevy ass. There was no open relationship agreement, and I was right: he was picking up other women and flaunting it in front of me. And then telling me I was imagining it! But yeah, the stroking other women in front of me was sucky, and inviting women into my house who cornered me to have a threesome which I had not agreed to was even more sucky.
I'd say get out now before it becomes more controlling, as I got beat up and shoved around because I found him out.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 1:00 PM on September 8, 2012 [7 favorites]
And it was gaslighting yeah, he was trying to cover his skeevy ass. There was no open relationship agreement, and I was right: he was picking up other women and flaunting it in front of me. And then telling me I was imagining it! But yeah, the stroking other women in front of me was sucky, and inviting women into my house who cornered me to have a threesome which I had not agreed to was even more sucky.
I'd say get out now before it becomes more controlling, as I got beat up and shoved around because I found him out.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 1:00 PM on September 8, 2012 [7 favorites]
Best answer: Assuming you're reading his behavior accurately, and he's in denial the way you describe, you won't get that honest conversation. He either wants to believe he's not drooling over this woman, or he doesn't want you to think he is, evidence to the contrary be damned.
posted by Rykey at 1:02 PM on September 8, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by Rykey at 1:02 PM on September 8, 2012 [1 favorite]
"Dude, you've been doing this for a year and it's pissing me off. If you continue, I will walk. Understand?"
posted by zippy at 1:03 PM on September 8, 2012 [14 favorites]
posted by zippy at 1:03 PM on September 8, 2012 [14 favorites]
Unless you post a followup that provides extra clarification that renders my present thoughts on this whole debacle moot, here's what I think.
When a partner goes out of their way to a) interact with another person in a flirty fashion, b) deny any wrongdoing, and c) continue aforementioned behavior for more than a year, that partner is no longer worthy of your time or energy, and no matter how much you want a logical, reasonable explanation for why they are doing what they are doing, you will categorically and most emphatically NEVER GET IT. Never. This is because their behavior is irrational, illogical, and downright rude, and they clearly believe that they are in the right no matter what reasonable points you send their way. There is no reasoning with somebody who can cycle through a, b, and c regularly without guilt or shame.
DTMF and don't look back.
posted by These Birds of a Feather at 1:03 PM on September 8, 2012 [13 favorites]
When a partner goes out of their way to a) interact with another person in a flirty fashion, b) deny any wrongdoing, and c) continue aforementioned behavior for more than a year, that partner is no longer worthy of your time or energy, and no matter how much you want a logical, reasonable explanation for why they are doing what they are doing, you will categorically and most emphatically NEVER GET IT. Never. This is because their behavior is irrational, illogical, and downright rude, and they clearly believe that they are in the right no matter what reasonable points you send their way. There is no reasoning with somebody who can cycle through a, b, and c regularly without guilt or shame.
DTMF and don't look back.
posted by These Birds of a Feather at 1:03 PM on September 8, 2012 [13 favorites]
I feel like he's gaslighting me
But it's hard to have an honest conversation when he's got such a wall built up around the subject. So, what can I say to him that will break through the wall?
"Life is too short to spend it with someone who clearly would rather be with someone else, and doesn't have the fortitude to admit it. Goodbye."
posted by ambrosia at 1:03 PM on September 8, 2012 [17 favorites]
But it's hard to have an honest conversation when he's got such a wall built up around the subject. So, what can I say to him that will break through the wall?
"Life is too short to spend it with someone who clearly would rather be with someone else, and doesn't have the fortitude to admit it. Goodbye."
posted by ambrosia at 1:03 PM on September 8, 2012 [17 favorites]
Best answer: Because it's been over a year any chance of his acknowledging his behavior as flirtatious seems very slim. Either he doesn't see it the way you do or he is unwilling to admit the truth to you. I don't see why that would change at thia point if it hasn't already. I get that you want an 'honest conversation' but he's having the only conversation he's willing to have. It could be the truth. Still, if this is something that upsets you personally (it isn't clear), a year is definitely long enough time to wait, especially if you think he is gaslighting you.
posted by marimeko at 1:07 PM on September 8, 2012
posted by marimeko at 1:07 PM on September 8, 2012
Is there literal drool? Your question has four mentions of "drool" and it seems unlikely that there's been actual escaping saliva, which makes me wonder if you haven't been inquiring after this, and overblowing whatever is going on, in a way that would indeed make many people (1) feel ashamed/silly, (2) knee-jerk denial to distance themselves from something you've framed as rather pathetic. But I also don't know how to answer without the context... If you are this person's supposed romantic partner, did they ever, do they ever, behave with you as they do with this person? If no, is there any agreed-upon definition of the relationship or are you just "hanging out"?
posted by kmennie at 1:08 PM on September 8, 2012 [7 favorites]
posted by kmennie at 1:08 PM on September 8, 2012 [7 favorites]
Keep your feedback focused on how his behavior appears to you and how it affects you.
When you attempt to tell him what his motives and intent are, of course he's going to tell you you're wrong, because only he knows what he's really thinking and you're basing your accusations on conjecture.
Tell him that his actions are upsetting you and that only him stopping it will change that. If he cares about your feelings more than his new 'friendship' then he'll stop. If not, you'll know where you stand.
posted by rocket88 at 1:11 PM on September 8, 2012 [3 favorites]
When you attempt to tell him what his motives and intent are, of course he's going to tell you you're wrong, because only he knows what he's really thinking and you're basing your accusations on conjecture.
Tell him that his actions are upsetting you and that only him stopping it will change that. If he cares about your feelings more than his new 'friendship' then he'll stop. If not, you'll know where you stand.
posted by rocket88 at 1:11 PM on September 8, 2012 [3 favorites]
Best answer: but I'd like to at least have an honest conversation first.
Magic and time travel are the answers you need.
Magic, because making him see (or admit) that he is actually doing the things you observe will require superhuman forces.
Time travel, because this won't happen anytime soon. Not today. Not tomorrow. Probably not even next month. I'm guessing years. Set the clock to 2025 and let us know.
In all seriousness, you have done everything you can. A big, huge part of what I learned in therapy is that no matter how well I utilize the skills I've learned, no matter how much I practice and how patient and calm and mindful I am, sometimes I will come across a conversation partner who is unwilling or unable to participate in good faith. And so I pass this on to you:
You are not doing anything wrong. You have tried very diligently to make this problem be less of a problem. It didn't work. Allow me an analogy.
posted by bilabial at 1:11 PM on September 8, 2012 [26 favorites]
Magic and time travel are the answers you need.
Magic, because making him see (or admit) that he is actually doing the things you observe will require superhuman forces.
Time travel, because this won't happen anytime soon. Not today. Not tomorrow. Probably not even next month. I'm guessing years. Set the clock to 2025 and let us know.
In all seriousness, you have done everything you can. A big, huge part of what I learned in therapy is that no matter how well I utilize the skills I've learned, no matter how much I practice and how patient and calm and mindful I am, sometimes I will come across a conversation partner who is unwilling or unable to participate in good faith. And so I pass this on to you:
You are not doing anything wrong. You have tried very diligently to make this problem be less of a problem. It didn't work. Allow me an analogy.
"My house is on fire. I threw a heavy blanket on the initial flames. I used three fire extinguishers aimed at the base of the flames. The fire department came and has turned their hoses onto the flames. I know that for my safety, I can leave. But first, I want to really try some firefighting techniques before I abandon this. What should I do?"OMFG RUN!!!
posted by bilabial at 1:11 PM on September 8, 2012 [26 favorites]
Speaking of denial... You're soaking in it.
He is blatantly flirting with another woman. Does he treat you fabulously, perhaps he's Ahh-mazing in bed, he does your ironing, is a conversational savant, always says you look great and built that addition you always wanted? Well, maybe he is so wonderful that you can overlook his desire to have another relationship, or the likelihood that he is already having another relationship, or 3. But he's disloyal and disrespectful.
Me, I'd boot him to the curb. Maybe you could try distancing yourself whenever he flirts with any other woman. I doubt it'll work; some men won't stop chasing other women. I'm sorry you have to go through this.
posted by theora55 at 1:21 PM on September 8, 2012 [6 favorites]
He is blatantly flirting with another woman. Does he treat you fabulously, perhaps he's Ahh-mazing in bed, he does your ironing, is a conversational savant, always says you look great and built that addition you always wanted? Well, maybe he is so wonderful that you can overlook his desire to have another relationship, or the likelihood that he is already having another relationship, or 3. But he's disloyal and disrespectful.
Me, I'd boot him to the curb. Maybe you could try distancing yourself whenever he flirts with any other woman. I doubt it'll work; some men won't stop chasing other women. I'm sorry you have to go through this.
posted by theora55 at 1:21 PM on September 8, 2012 [6 favorites]
Best answer: ...comparing arm muscles, and you grabbed her arm to feel it.
...and complimented her new toenail polish.
If he was 24, maybe I could see a claim that this isn't obviously flirting as just the voice of inexperience. But if he's in his 40's? I don't think he's engaging in good faith. If he won't engage in good faith, I don't think there's much else to do except to talk about the prospect of ending things. And doing that is usually a prelude to actually ending them.
posted by tyllwin at 1:27 PM on September 8, 2012
...and complimented her new toenail polish.
If he was 24, maybe I could see a claim that this isn't obviously flirting as just the voice of inexperience. But if he's in his 40's? I don't think he's engaging in good faith. If he won't engage in good faith, I don't think there's much else to do except to talk about the prospect of ending things. And doing that is usually a prelude to actually ending them.
posted by tyllwin at 1:27 PM on September 8, 2012
Yeah, the relationship here is so unclear, it's hard to answer.
If this is a friend of yours, then mind your own business.
If this is your boyfriend, then maybe listen to the above posters.
posted by mrfuga0 at 1:42 PM on September 8, 2012
If this is a friend of yours, then mind your own business.
If this is your boyfriend, then maybe listen to the above posters.
posted by mrfuga0 at 1:42 PM on September 8, 2012
Last time I dated a guy who was in Complete Denial over his feelings for another woman (for a year!), he eventually cheated on me with her.
Would have made much more sense for me to just break up with him while he was in Complete Denial rather than wait to break up with after the inevitable conclusion. So take my 20-20 hindsight and DTMFA.
posted by lydhre at 1:42 PM on September 8, 2012 [3 favorites]
Would have made much more sense for me to just break up with him while he was in Complete Denial rather than wait to break up with after the inevitable conclusion. So take my 20-20 hindsight and DTMFA.
posted by lydhre at 1:42 PM on September 8, 2012 [3 favorites]
Best answer: " But it's hard to have an honest conversation..."
So sorry, but you have had that conversation, apparently many times. The phrase 'have your cake an eat it too' applies. You can settle for crumbs from him, or find a more honest person.
Your next step depends on your pride and self worth. You do not seem to have any legal ties to this man-child, so dumping him should not be hard. You deserve better.
posted by Cranberry at 1:49 PM on September 8, 2012 [3 favorites]
So sorry, but you have had that conversation, apparently many times. The phrase 'have your cake an eat it too' applies. You can settle for crumbs from him, or find a more honest person.
Your next step depends on your pride and self worth. You do not seem to have any legal ties to this man-child, so dumping him should not be hard. You deserve better.
posted by Cranberry at 1:49 PM on September 8, 2012 [3 favorites]
This is pure speculation but its based on several similar situations I've been the other girl in. Your guy likes this woman and at some point she firmly let him know she wasn't interested in him romantically but only as a friend. So they're friends, that's why he can look you in the eye and say there is nothing going on. As far as anything developing with her, it probably won't because it takes two to tango and she ain't interested. You don't say hoe they know each other but maybe she's trying to stay on good terms for some reason, like work?
I'd be pretty annoyed too if I were you but if they've agreed to be "friends" your SO probably feels like he's got the moral high ground here and confronting him is unlikely to work.Trust your gut I guess but of your so is the kind of man likes to get his flirt on, doing it with someone who's never going to take him up on it is better than the alternative.
posted by fshgrl at 1:56 PM on September 8, 2012 [2 favorites]
I'd be pretty annoyed too if I were you but if they've agreed to be "friends" your SO probably feels like he's got the moral high ground here and confronting him is unlikely to work.Trust your gut I guess but of your so is the kind of man likes to get his flirt on, doing it with someone who's never going to take him up on it is better than the alternative.
posted by fshgrl at 1:56 PM on September 8, 2012 [2 favorites]
Have you recontextualized it in reverse for him? "How would you feel if (name of handsome friend) behaved that way towards me?" Does he still maintain that it wouldn't bother him?
That said, I am not sure it matters. Either you are incompatible in your expectations of what is appropriate in a relationship or else he knows/likes that he is disrespecting you. And either way, after a year, he doesn't even try to pretend to care that it hurts you. I don't see anything to save here; these are all dealbreaker scenarios.
posted by juliplease at 1:56 PM on September 8, 2012
That said, I am not sure it matters. Either you are incompatible in your expectations of what is appropriate in a relationship or else he knows/likes that he is disrespecting you. And either way, after a year, he doesn't even try to pretend to care that it hurts you. I don't see anything to save here; these are all dealbreaker scenarios.
posted by juliplease at 1:56 PM on September 8, 2012
Stop making this about him and his behaviour and instead tell him flat out how this affects you. He can argue about the former forever but the latter, assuming you guys are a couple, is something he should care about fixing. "You've been flirting with her for a year and it makes me feel bad, please stop doing it." Maybe with an example of why it pisses you off, maybe (preferably) with an ultimatum about what will happen if he doesn't stop. Yes that might lead to you breaking up but at least then it will then be clear that he cares more about rubbing her arm than he does about making you feel comfortable and stable in your relationship.
Some people do see this kind of behaviour as a normal expression of friendship (I don't but whatever), so don't even get into that argument, because who cares what other people think when it makes you feel like shit?
posted by shelleycat at 1:58 PM on September 8, 2012 [4 favorites]
Some people do see this kind of behaviour as a normal expression of friendship (I don't but whatever), so don't even get into that argument, because who cares what other people think when it makes you feel like shit?
posted by shelleycat at 1:58 PM on September 8, 2012 [4 favorites]
The only wall here is the one that you've built by continuing to put up with him, instead of getting the heck out. Why would he ever be honest with you about this if he's been denying it successfully for over a year? Why do you need him to confirm what you can see with your own eyes?
You don't need a strategy for getting him to be honest--he's already proven repeatedly that he wont be. At least not about this. You need a strategy for walking away and leaving him to his games.
posted by sundaydriver at 2:38 PM on September 8, 2012 [3 favorites]
You don't need a strategy for getting him to be honest--he's already proven repeatedly that he wont be. At least not about this. You need a strategy for walking away and leaving him to his games.
posted by sundaydriver at 2:38 PM on September 8, 2012 [3 favorites]
I've been in this relationship.
He wound up with her after eventually dumping me.
If it's not working, and he's refusing to listen or communicate, there's no way you can force him to. Step away.
posted by windykites at 2:56 PM on September 8, 2012 [2 favorites]
He wound up with her after eventually dumping me.
If it's not working, and he's refusing to listen or communicate, there's no way you can force him to. Step away.
posted by windykites at 2:56 PM on September 8, 2012 [2 favorites]
Best answer: I feel like he's gaslighting me, but ... I'd like to at least have an honest conversation first.
Hello, I spent 17 years with a gaslighting mother and then another few with a gaslighting boyfriend. Here is the thing about gaslighting: the POINT of it is to not ever have an honest conversation. In all those years with my mother, I was only ever to have ONE honest conversation with her about the things she gaslighted me on. (I caught her extremely off guard and later she totally denied the conversation.) With the boyfriend, I never did. I think it pretty much never happens with these people.
But it's hard to have an honest conversation when he's got such a wall built up around the subject. So, what can I say to him that will break through the wall?
Here is the way gaslighting works. The gaslighter makes you believe that both people have to agree on what the truth is. That you cannot unilaterally decide, based on your own perception and judgment, what the truth is. You have to get their agreement on what is the truth. Otherwise you don't "really" know the truth.
What is the purpose of knowing the truth. One of the purposes of knowing the truth is that we decide what to do in life, and which actions to take, based on what we know.
So that is how gaslighters control your actions. Say if Fact A is the truth, then you will do Action 1. The gaslighter does not want Action 1 to happen. So first they make you believe you are not allowed to just decide Fact A is the truth without them agreeing to is. And once they have achieved that, they will NEVER EVER EVER admit that Fact A is the truth. What would be in it for them? They never will admit it, because they do not want Action 1 to happen.
Here in your situation, I think Action 1 is you leaving, which would mean this guy would lose sex, companionship, or whatever it is that he wants that he is getting. He will never, ever, ever admit what is PLAIN AS DAYLIGHT.
So, here is how I learned to live my life with my mom, when I was a teen. I totally stopped believing that I needed to get her to agree with what the truth was. I decided that I was a perfectly intelligent and rational person who was capable of accurately ascertaining the truth with my own brain and senses, and that my memory was very highly functional and in good working order. And that I did not need to get anyone's second opinion on what the truth was or have them validate my perceptions for me, and I did not need anyone else to agree to them for them to be valid. That I was not going to argue or even "discuss" what the truth "really was" with someone who I thought was being dishonest. And more importantly, I did not need anyone's approval of what I thought was the truth, to ACT based on what I thought was the truth.
So, with my mom, we started having conversations that went like,
Mom: "What is your new address?"
Me: "I am not going to give you my new address right now because you do not respect my privacy and I do not want you showing up unannounced to talk to my housemates and neighbors like you did at the last place I lived."
Mom: "Wow, you live in a fantasy land if you think I would ever do anything like that or have the time for it. But then again you have always had a very vivid imagination. What are you even talking about?"
Me: "No, that is what you did and I am not going to argue about it. I am not giving you my new address for that reason and I am not going to argue about that either. I am done talking about this."
It took YEARS and years of me not playing into the gaslighting at all for her to stop trying to use it. Even now, I think a big part of the decrease is that we don't have the kind of relationship now where there are that many things she can DO to me to gaslight me about.
But this is the only thing I have ever found to work in this situation. Just decide for yourself what the truth is, don't be afraid to say it out loud, refuse to argue about whether or not it is true, and act based on what YOUR perception of the truth is.
posted by cairdeas at 3:51 PM on September 8, 2012 [77 favorites]
Hello, I spent 17 years with a gaslighting mother and then another few with a gaslighting boyfriend. Here is the thing about gaslighting: the POINT of it is to not ever have an honest conversation. In all those years with my mother, I was only ever to have ONE honest conversation with her about the things she gaslighted me on. (I caught her extremely off guard and later she totally denied the conversation.) With the boyfriend, I never did. I think it pretty much never happens with these people.
But it's hard to have an honest conversation when he's got such a wall built up around the subject. So, what can I say to him that will break through the wall?
Here is the way gaslighting works. The gaslighter makes you believe that both people have to agree on what the truth is. That you cannot unilaterally decide, based on your own perception and judgment, what the truth is. You have to get their agreement on what is the truth. Otherwise you don't "really" know the truth.
What is the purpose of knowing the truth. One of the purposes of knowing the truth is that we decide what to do in life, and which actions to take, based on what we know.
So that is how gaslighters control your actions. Say if Fact A is the truth, then you will do Action 1. The gaslighter does not want Action 1 to happen. So first they make you believe you are not allowed to just decide Fact A is the truth without them agreeing to is. And once they have achieved that, they will NEVER EVER EVER admit that Fact A is the truth. What would be in it for them? They never will admit it, because they do not want Action 1 to happen.
Here in your situation, I think Action 1 is you leaving, which would mean this guy would lose sex, companionship, or whatever it is that he wants that he is getting. He will never, ever, ever admit what is PLAIN AS DAYLIGHT.
So, here is how I learned to live my life with my mom, when I was a teen. I totally stopped believing that I needed to get her to agree with what the truth was. I decided that I was a perfectly intelligent and rational person who was capable of accurately ascertaining the truth with my own brain and senses, and that my memory was very highly functional and in good working order. And that I did not need to get anyone's second opinion on what the truth was or have them validate my perceptions for me, and I did not need anyone else to agree to them for them to be valid. That I was not going to argue or even "discuss" what the truth "really was" with someone who I thought was being dishonest. And more importantly, I did not need anyone's approval of what I thought was the truth, to ACT based on what I thought was the truth.
So, with my mom, we started having conversations that went like,
Mom: "What is your new address?"
Me: "I am not going to give you my new address right now because you do not respect my privacy and I do not want you showing up unannounced to talk to my housemates and neighbors like you did at the last place I lived."
Mom: "Wow, you live in a fantasy land if you think I would ever do anything like that or have the time for it. But then again you have always had a very vivid imagination. What are you even talking about?"
Me: "No, that is what you did and I am not going to argue about it. I am not giving you my new address for that reason and I am not going to argue about that either. I am done talking about this."
It took YEARS and years of me not playing into the gaslighting at all for her to stop trying to use it. Even now, I think a big part of the decrease is that we don't have the kind of relationship now where there are that many things she can DO to me to gaslight me about.
But this is the only thing I have ever found to work in this situation. Just decide for yourself what the truth is, don't be afraid to say it out loud, refuse to argue about whether or not it is true, and act based on what YOUR perception of the truth is.
posted by cairdeas at 3:51 PM on September 8, 2012 [77 favorites]
Best answer: Oh, the other thing about this guy in your specific situation is that he doesn't sound in denial to me. I mean, he's denying things to YOU but that's not the same as being "in denial," I'm sure that he's very well aware of how hot he is for this woman.
I'm willing to bet that either he very simply just doesn't care how this affects you, or he actively enjoys hurting you on some level. (Maybe he resents you in some way, or resents/hates women in general in some way, or maybe he just has a sadistic streak, or etc., the possibilities are endless).
Ask yourself this: what would be in it for him to ever stop denying this?
posted by cairdeas at 4:04 PM on September 8, 2012 [5 favorites]
I'm willing to bet that either he very simply just doesn't care how this affects you, or he actively enjoys hurting you on some level. (Maybe he resents you in some way, or resents/hates women in general in some way, or maybe he just has a sadistic streak, or etc., the possibilities are endless).
Ask yourself this: what would be in it for him to ever stop denying this?
posted by cairdeas at 4:04 PM on September 8, 2012 [5 favorites]
Last time I saw this kind of behavior, it was my (now) ex-husband and his secret girlfriend. Denied anything more than friendship up 'til the bitter end and even after when I found out he was living with her.
posted by L'Estrange Fruit at 4:24 PM on September 8, 2012 [4 favorites]
posted by L'Estrange Fruit at 4:24 PM on September 8, 2012 [4 favorites]
Best answer: Yeah, he knows what he's doing - he's just not going to actually admit to it.
And, on some level, he might be continuing to do it simply because you won't stand up to him and tell him to quit it. At the moment, you're not telling him to quit it, you're just saying he's acting like a teenager and he's saying he's not.
The thing is, he'll just keep doing it because there are only positive repercussions (fantasy crush and/or actual secret relationship) and no negative repercussions (you going apeshit on his arse).
So, you could dump him, you could go apeshit on him, or you could continue to put up with it. The last one will continue to make you feel like crap and he'll just keep doing it - the longer you leave it, the worse it will get.
posted by heyjude at 4:31 PM on September 8, 2012
And, on some level, he might be continuing to do it simply because you won't stand up to him and tell him to quit it. At the moment, you're not telling him to quit it, you're just saying he's acting like a teenager and he's saying he's not.
The thing is, he'll just keep doing it because there are only positive repercussions (fantasy crush and/or actual secret relationship) and no negative repercussions (you going apeshit on his arse).
So, you could dump him, you could go apeshit on him, or you could continue to put up with it. The last one will continue to make you feel like crap and he'll just keep doing it - the longer you leave it, the worse it will get.
posted by heyjude at 4:31 PM on September 8, 2012
I went back and re-read your question and I, frankly, don't see anything approaching the level to provoke the kind of responses being suggested to you. This has been going on for a year and you're upset because he asked if she has a boyfriend, what she reads, feels her bicep in a discussion about workouts, complimented her nail polish and once walked with her at lunch. If he (actually) physically drooled on the table that probably signifies a health problem rather than romantic issues.
You don't give any information about the basis for their interactions (co-workers, neighbors, ????) or their relative ages, etc. Apparently nothing more significantly untoward has happened between them in a year, in which he has consistently disavowed any active romantic interest in her. In my opinion, if anyone is "gaslighting" (presenting an untrue reality as truth) here, it's you.
posted by uncaken at 4:35 PM on September 8, 2012 [4 favorites]
You don't give any information about the basis for their interactions (co-workers, neighbors, ????) or their relative ages, etc. Apparently nothing more significantly untoward has happened between them in a year, in which he has consistently disavowed any active romantic interest in her. In my opinion, if anyone is "gaslighting" (presenting an untrue reality as truth) here, it's you.
posted by uncaken at 4:35 PM on September 8, 2012 [4 favorites]
This has been going on for more than a year, and it's driving me crazy. Whenever I try to say "if you don't want to go out with her, then stop acting like you do," he'll just say, "I'm not acting like I do. How am I doing that?" And we'll get back into wrangling over specific details like the drool on the table.
What are you getting out of this relationship that's making this bullshit worth it? I understand your desire for closure on the subject, but you're not going to get it and in the meantime you're torturing yourself.
posted by Anonymous at 4:51 PM on September 8, 2012
What are you getting out of this relationship that's making this bullshit worth it? I understand your desire for closure on the subject, but you're not going to get it and in the meantime you're torturing yourself.
posted by Anonymous at 4:51 PM on September 8, 2012
I guess I'm in the extreme minority here, but: I don't necessarily think you are right, poster, that he is flirting or that he wants to cheat on you. I've known people who destroyed relationships because they saw flirting and betrayal in the most innocuous acts, because of their own insecurities. Look inward to see if maybe this applies to you even a little bit.
I second the idea that you should talk to him about the way his actions make you feel, which is not debatable, instead of informing him what his feelings and motivations are, which you could be wrong about. It is not necessary for you to get him to agree with you that he is flirting with this woman. You need to decide on your own whether this behavior is tolerable, and if it is not, tell him specifically what you would need in order to want to stay in a relationship with him. Phrase it in such a way that he is less likely to get defensive, using "I feel" and "I need" statements, rather than accusatory "you" statements.
Oh and, telling someone "your behavior is wrong" is very much NOT great advice. It's almost guaranteed to get the other party to be defensive. And it's an arrogant value judgement, presuming that the accuser's perception of right and wrong is the only possible one. "Your behavior hurts me" is more accurate as well as more likely to lead to a meaningful conversation. Better yet, de-personalize further by placing your reaction in context, like "When people do X, I tend to feel Y. Especially because I value our relationship, when you do X, it really triggers Y in me".
posted by parrot_person at 5:40 PM on September 8, 2012 [7 favorites]
I second the idea that you should talk to him about the way his actions make you feel, which is not debatable, instead of informing him what his feelings and motivations are, which you could be wrong about. It is not necessary for you to get him to agree with you that he is flirting with this woman. You need to decide on your own whether this behavior is tolerable, and if it is not, tell him specifically what you would need in order to want to stay in a relationship with him. Phrase it in such a way that he is less likely to get defensive, using "I feel" and "I need" statements, rather than accusatory "you" statements.
Oh and, telling someone "your behavior is wrong" is very much NOT great advice. It's almost guaranteed to get the other party to be defensive. And it's an arrogant value judgement, presuming that the accuser's perception of right and wrong is the only possible one. "Your behavior hurts me" is more accurate as well as more likely to lead to a meaningful conversation. Better yet, de-personalize further by placing your reaction in context, like "When people do X, I tend to feel Y. Especially because I value our relationship, when you do X, it really triggers Y in me".
posted by parrot_person at 5:40 PM on September 8, 2012 [7 favorites]
Like uncaken above, I am going to go against the grain and say that the DTMFA responses are a bit extreme. Maybe I have low standards. Who knows. Most relationships involve certain aspects that annoy the crap out of you, things about the person that won't change. Most relationships also involve some amount of risk. It is by not accepting the unchangeable annoying crap that you can get into nagging and gridlock.
The questions I'd be asking myself in your position are:
- Is he going to cheat? What is my gut feeling? What is the probability, what would the fallout be, is that a risk I am willing to take? None of us here in the peanut gallery can answer that for you. People have anecdata, but the specifics really do matter.
- Is dating a flirt something that I can accept for life? Can you say, I will accept to be annoyed the shit out of, on this issue, like a stone in my shoe, because I like the life we have together? Can I let this one go? How can I deal with it? Ignoring it or leaving the room when it bothers you might be more productive than "honest conversations" if this is just one of his flaws.
I think this comes down to evaluating the relationship as a whole...
posted by kellybird at 5:44 PM on September 8, 2012 [3 favorites]
The questions I'd be asking myself in your position are:
- Is he going to cheat? What is my gut feeling? What is the probability, what would the fallout be, is that a risk I am willing to take? None of us here in the peanut gallery can answer that for you. People have anecdata, but the specifics really do matter.
- Is dating a flirt something that I can accept for life? Can you say, I will accept to be annoyed the shit out of, on this issue, like a stone in my shoe, because I like the life we have together? Can I let this one go? How can I deal with it? Ignoring it or leaving the room when it bothers you might be more productive than "honest conversations" if this is just one of his flaws.
I think this comes down to evaluating the relationship as a whole...
posted by kellybird at 5:44 PM on September 8, 2012 [3 favorites]
Sounds annoying. I'd break up, walk away, and put a moratorium on interaction or proximity. I'd be honest about why I'd decided it wasn't a good fit, but not pick a fight about it.
posted by batmonkey at 6:49 PM on September 8, 2012
posted by batmonkey at 6:49 PM on September 8, 2012
I think there are three possible things going on:
A) He knows he's flirting with her and is denying it to you. This is bad.
B) He's flirting with her, but he's deep in denial and thinks he's just friendly. This is bad because people that out of touch with their inner life tend to emotion-explode in very dramatic and drama-causing ways and it probably won't come out well.
C) He's being totally innocent and platonic. This is bad because you dislike his method of being platonic friends with other women.
It sort-of doesn't matter whether it's innocent or not, whether he knows what he's doing or not. Even if this is totally innocent, it's not a style of behavior you're comfortable with, and if you're not comfortable with how your partner is friends with other people, it's probably not going to work out because it be a source of constant, constant conflict in your relationship. Both of you may have totally acceptable friendship styles, but have a hard time coping with the other person's style. That's okay. And it's an okay reason to decide to break up.
And if it isn't innocent, well, this situation seems unlikely to improve in that case either.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:30 PM on September 8, 2012 [7 favorites]
A) He knows he's flirting with her and is denying it to you. This is bad.
B) He's flirting with her, but he's deep in denial and thinks he's just friendly. This is bad because people that out of touch with their inner life tend to emotion-explode in very dramatic and drama-causing ways and it probably won't come out well.
C) He's being totally innocent and platonic. This is bad because you dislike his method of being platonic friends with other women.
It sort-of doesn't matter whether it's innocent or not, whether he knows what he's doing or not. Even if this is totally innocent, it's not a style of behavior you're comfortable with, and if you're not comfortable with how your partner is friends with other people, it's probably not going to work out because it be a source of constant, constant conflict in your relationship. Both of you may have totally acceptable friendship styles, but have a hard time coping with the other person's style. That's okay. And it's an okay reason to decide to break up.
And if it isn't innocent, well, this situation seems unlikely to improve in that case either.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:30 PM on September 8, 2012 [7 favorites]
If this is your boyfriend then dump him. He's being consistently disrespectful and inappropriate in terms of his relationship with you at a minimum - even if the flirting is innocent, he's continuing to do stuff that he knows hurts your feelings and agitates you. More likely, it's not innocent, he's more into this chick than he is into you, but he doesn't think she'll have him as her actual boyfriend so he hasn't dumped you for her yet.
If it's not your boyfriend, then it's not your problem how he flirts.
Good luck, this stuff hurts so much. You'll feel better once you've trusted your instincts enough to act on them. (I've seen a situation like this drag on for a decade by the way. Very awkward for all the onlookers and no picnic for the (now ex-) wife.)
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:27 PM on September 8, 2012 [2 favorites]
If it's not your boyfriend, then it's not your problem how he flirts.
Good luck, this stuff hurts so much. You'll feel better once you've trusted your instincts enough to act on them. (I've seen a situation like this drag on for a decade by the way. Very awkward for all the onlookers and no picnic for the (now ex-) wife.)
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:27 PM on September 8, 2012 [2 favorites]
Last time I saw this kind of behavior, it was my (now) ex-husband and his secret girlfriend. Denied anything more than friendship up 'til the bitter end and even after when I found out he was living with her.
Wow. Yes. Exactly this for me too.
posted by gemmy at 9:09 PM on September 8, 2012 [1 favorite]
Wow. Yes. Exactly this for me too.
posted by gemmy at 9:09 PM on September 8, 2012 [1 favorite]
He refuses to be honest with you. Tell him he cuts it out (actually stops the behavior, which he'd have to listen to you to understand) or you walk. And then, when he doesn't, leave. If I were you I would do it as cold turkey as possible, because I would feel humiliated to play out some kind of drama with him while he's lying to and refusing to be honorable with me. Just leave.
posted by stoneandstar at 9:40 PM on September 8, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by stoneandstar at 9:40 PM on September 8, 2012 [1 favorite]
Yup: what gemmy and L'Estrange Fruit said. There was nothing I could have done to get him to have an honest conversation with me.
In retrospect, I wish I had left sooner than to keep making myself insane trying. That relationship left me with serious trust issues: not only trusting other partners, but trusting myself. This kind of behavior really messes with you in a way that's hard to see fully until you have some distance from it, and takes some work to get over.
Anyway, one more thing: some other commenters have suggested that maybe his intentions are innocent. Even if that's true, you've identified this as one of your boundaries and he keeps ignoring it. That kind of disrespect from a partner is grounds for dumping on its own.
Singlehood seems scary, but after the initial breakup sting wears off it is way better than your head being constantly fucked with. I speak from experience.
posted by AV at 5:45 AM on September 9, 2012 [5 favorites]
In retrospect, I wish I had left sooner than to keep making myself insane trying. That relationship left me with serious trust issues: not only trusting other partners, but trusting myself. This kind of behavior really messes with you in a way that's hard to see fully until you have some distance from it, and takes some work to get over.
Anyway, one more thing: some other commenters have suggested that maybe his intentions are innocent. Even if that's true, you've identified this as one of your boundaries and he keeps ignoring it. That kind of disrespect from a partner is grounds for dumping on its own.
Singlehood seems scary, but after the initial breakup sting wears off it is way better than your head being constantly fucked with. I speak from experience.
posted by AV at 5:45 AM on September 9, 2012 [5 favorites]
If this is your boyfriend, it really doesn't matter whether he admits this to you. It's bothering you. If he won't stop, decide if this is a deal breaker for you. If it is, you'll have to be prepared to walk. If it's not, well, what do you want to have happen? Imagine that he admitted his behavior and refused to change it -- what would you do then? Do that.
If this is just a friend of yours, and the girl he's crushing on hasn't complained to you or asked you for help in putting a stop to his unwanted attention, stop interfering as it's none of your concern.
posted by J. Wilson at 9:20 AM on September 9, 2012 [1 favorite]
If this is just a friend of yours, and the girl he's crushing on hasn't complained to you or asked you for help in putting a stop to his unwanted attention, stop interfering as it's none of your concern.
posted by J. Wilson at 9:20 AM on September 9, 2012 [1 favorite]
Your boyfriend is making you feel bad and denying it is a problem. It is a problem for you, and that is legitimate. Read cairdeas' post many, many times. It is the answer for most of us that have these problems in our relationships. I need to memorize it and say it back to myself daily.
posted by thrasher at 2:45 PM on September 11, 2012
posted by thrasher at 2:45 PM on September 11, 2012
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This thread is closed to new comments.
- What is your relationship to this guy and this girl? Is this your boyfriend/girlfriend? Are they platonic friends of yours?
- Has the girl ever expressed discomfort with this attention, or is the problematic part coming from some other angle?
It makes a really big difference whether you're trying to defend her from actions she's uncomfortable with vs. actions you are uncomfortable with vs. trying to get your monogamous partner to knock it off with the attention to another woman.
posted by restless_nomad at 12:54 PM on September 8, 2012 [3 favorites]