I Can't Get Started
June 1, 2012 8:56 PM Subscribe
The starter on my '92 Dodge Spirit keeps dying, even after I replace it. Why?
Two weeks ago, the starter on my '92 Dodge Spirit broke - it made a high whirring noise, but wouldn't turn over. So I replaced it, and it worked fine again. A week later, the same thing happened - high whirring noise, won't turn over.
Why would this happen? I'm worried that maybe it's a short, but it seemed to work quite well for a week, so I don't think so. I also wonder if it's the teeth the starter contacts with, but I'm not sure if that's a problem that happens, and the starter motor on a '92 Spirit is tough to reach (it's behind the engine) so it's hard for me to find out.
Does anybody have any ideas?
Two weeks ago, the starter on my '92 Dodge Spirit broke - it made a high whirring noise, but wouldn't turn over. So I replaced it, and it worked fine again. A week later, the same thing happened - high whirring noise, won't turn over.
Why would this happen? I'm worried that maybe it's a short, but it seemed to work quite well for a week, so I don't think so. I also wonder if it's the teeth the starter contacts with, but I'm not sure if that's a problem that happens, and the starter motor on a '92 Spirit is tough to reach (it's behind the engine) so it's hard for me to find out.
Does anybody have any ideas?
I had the same problem with a car I owned many years ago. Some of the teeth on the ring gear of the flywheel were ground down or missing, so the starter sometimes didn't have anything to engage with. If that's the case with your car, it'll be more expensive than replacing the starter was because the transmission has to be removed to get to the flywheel/ring gear. The teeth of the ring gear can be inspected by removing the starter, so it's not a hard diagnosis. The pictures on this link are for a tractor, but it's the same on a car. Good luck.
posted by Daddy-O at 10:31 PM on June 1, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by Daddy-O at 10:31 PM on June 1, 2012 [1 favorite]
Sometimes the crappy rebuilt starters you buy for a crappy old car are just, well, crappy. One time I went through three before I got a good one that could last more than a week. So before you start diagnosing all kinds of other potential problems, make sure you have a decent starter.
posted by Forktine at 11:05 PM on June 1, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by Forktine at 11:05 PM on June 1, 2012 [2 favorites]
Seconding Forktine. The next time your starter doesn't work pull it out and see if there are any problem teeth on the flywheel. And if not take the starter to a local re builder and have them rebuild your starter. It's going to cost more than a starter rebuilt at some chinese sweat shop but I'll be a better job and they'll actually test it before giving it back to you.
posted by Mitheral at 11:18 PM on June 1, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by Mitheral at 11:18 PM on June 1, 2012 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Thanks for all the helpful responses.
6550: "Sounds like a solenoid (or similar) that kicks the starter into the the flywheel is failing. I believe this integrated into starters on some engines, but separate on others."
I though this was the problem when I replaced it the first time - I know solenoids are a common problem with starters, and I've had that problem before. But twice, with two different starter motors? The common denominator is the rest of the machine, so I'm led to wonder about it.
Daddy-O: "The teeth of the ring gear can be inspected by removing the starter, so it's not a hard diagnosis."
Unfortunately it's not so easy. On every other car I've ever worked on, that would be true, but on the Dodge Spirit they actually put the starter on the back of the engine underneath the intake manifold. It was quite difficult to get the thing off the first time, even though it's just the three bolts as usual. The point where the gears would meet is not visible from any vantage point, even with the starter off. However, I've just remembered that I have one of those mirrors-on-a-stick somewhere; I'm going to try to use that.
Forktine: "Sometimes the crappy rebuilt starters you buy for a crappy old car are just, well, crappy. One time I went through three before I got a good one that could last more than a week. So before you start diagnosing all kinds of other potential problems, make sure you have a decent starter."
Sadly, the replacement starter was a brand-new part - didn't have time to search around for rebuilt, and anyway I've had bad luck with those, so I just spent the fifty bucks for a new one. But who knows; this is from Autozone, so I'm going down tomorrow to see if it's still under warranty. We shall see.
posted by koeselitz at 11:44 PM on June 1, 2012
6550: "Sounds like a solenoid (or similar) that kicks the starter into the the flywheel is failing. I believe this integrated into starters on some engines, but separate on others."
I though this was the problem when I replaced it the first time - I know solenoids are a common problem with starters, and I've had that problem before. But twice, with two different starter motors? The common denominator is the rest of the machine, so I'm led to wonder about it.
Daddy-O: "The teeth of the ring gear can be inspected by removing the starter, so it's not a hard diagnosis."
Unfortunately it's not so easy. On every other car I've ever worked on, that would be true, but on the Dodge Spirit they actually put the starter on the back of the engine underneath the intake manifold. It was quite difficult to get the thing off the first time, even though it's just the three bolts as usual. The point where the gears would meet is not visible from any vantage point, even with the starter off. However, I've just remembered that I have one of those mirrors-on-a-stick somewhere; I'm going to try to use that.
Forktine: "Sometimes the crappy rebuilt starters you buy for a crappy old car are just, well, crappy. One time I went through three before I got a good one that could last more than a week. So before you start diagnosing all kinds of other potential problems, make sure you have a decent starter."
Sadly, the replacement starter was a brand-new part - didn't have time to search around for rebuilt, and anyway I've had bad luck with those, so I just spent the fifty bucks for a new one. But who knows; this is from Autozone, so I'm going down tomorrow to see if it's still under warranty. We shall see.
posted by koeselitz at 11:44 PM on June 1, 2012
Did you replace a part similar to this (hope the link works)?
posted by 6550 at 12:00 AM on June 2, 2012
posted by 6550 at 12:00 AM on June 2, 2012
Missing flywheel teeth was my guess, too. I'm not familiar with the Spirit, but if it's possible to turn the engine a bit using some other method (like with a wrench) then the flywheel will turn with it, and you can see whether that makes the starter suddenly work.
posted by jon1270 at 4:28 AM on June 2, 2012
posted by jon1270 at 4:28 AM on June 2, 2012
Have the battery tested. How old is it? If you don't know, generally there will be a round sticker on the side that has a date code with the month and year of manufacture.
posted by narcoleptic at 5:18 AM on June 2, 2012
posted by narcoleptic at 5:18 AM on June 2, 2012
Couple of things:
I agree, it does sound like the solenoid is not engaging.
Having owned 3 Dodge Spirits over the years, I can tell you that the solenoid is integral to the starter. So no worries about that.
If there were missing flywheel teeth, just replacing the starter should not make it suddenly work, because the engine will not have been turned by that job. So the missing teeth would be in the same place with the new starter.
I have had pretty good luck with Autozone's hard parts like this. That's not to say it is impossible, even a new $50 starter is still a $50 starter.
What I would do is first is look at the starter. There ought to be a gear that is retracted inside the starter, and that should pop out when the starter is engaged. So, bench test the starter. Hook it to a battery and watch it spin for a couple of seconds. The little gear should shoot out and spin. (These are obviously pretty torquey little motors, so you might want to secure it somehow.)
If that passes the test, then start looking for electrical problems. Bad grounding straps, corroded positive cables and the like. I think one of the tests for problems is to look at the voltage drop when trying to start the car, and also the voltage drop between the battery and the starter. I think there is a scenario where the starter can get enough voltage to half-engage the solenoid and gently spin the starter, but not enough to engage the solenoid all the way.
Lastly, is something leaking onto the starter that is gumming it up?
posted by gjc at 6:02 AM on June 2, 2012
I agree, it does sound like the solenoid is not engaging.
Having owned 3 Dodge Spirits over the years, I can tell you that the solenoid is integral to the starter. So no worries about that.
If there were missing flywheel teeth, just replacing the starter should not make it suddenly work, because the engine will not have been turned by that job. So the missing teeth would be in the same place with the new starter.
I have had pretty good luck with Autozone's hard parts like this. That's not to say it is impossible, even a new $50 starter is still a $50 starter.
What I would do is first is look at the starter. There ought to be a gear that is retracted inside the starter, and that should pop out when the starter is engaged. So, bench test the starter. Hook it to a battery and watch it spin for a couple of seconds. The little gear should shoot out and spin. (These are obviously pretty torquey little motors, so you might want to secure it somehow.)
If that passes the test, then start looking for electrical problems. Bad grounding straps, corroded positive cables and the like. I think one of the tests for problems is to look at the voltage drop when trying to start the car, and also the voltage drop between the battery and the starter. I think there is a scenario where the starter can get enough voltage to half-engage the solenoid and gently spin the starter, but not enough to engage the solenoid all the way.
Lastly, is something leaking onto the starter that is gumming it up?
posted by gjc at 6:02 AM on June 2, 2012
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See here for more info, on a case that sounds similar to yours. You may have to replace that solenoid, which probably involves removing the starter again.
posted by 6550 at 9:11 PM on June 1, 2012 [1 favorite]