She's dating a guy who had an affair and is now divorced - can it work?
May 17, 2012 9:12 AM Subscribe
She's dating a guy who had an affair and is now divorced. Can it work? How?
(Asking for a friend) My female friend is a few months into a relationship with a divorced dad. She's in her mid/late thirties, he's in his early forties. He had an affair pre-divorce, which was only a few years ago. His re-married wife and young kids are across the country and there are periodic visits. He is tight-lipped about his marriage and the divorce, however, and she has lots of questions.
Of course these things are always complicated and the affair may be as much a symptom as a cause of his marriage breaking up. My friend thinks things are going well in this still-new relationship. But her insecurities about various little things all seem to lead back to wondering if the fact he had an affair means he's unlikely to want to settle down, have kids and be faithful. What does she ask him? What should he be expected to share? Have you dated a guy who had an affair and did it work out? Why/why not?
(Asking for a friend) My female friend is a few months into a relationship with a divorced dad. She's in her mid/late thirties, he's in his early forties. He had an affair pre-divorce, which was only a few years ago. His re-married wife and young kids are across the country and there are periodic visits. He is tight-lipped about his marriage and the divorce, however, and she has lots of questions.
Of course these things are always complicated and the affair may be as much a symptom as a cause of his marriage breaking up. My friend thinks things are going well in this still-new relationship. But her insecurities about various little things all seem to lead back to wondering if the fact he had an affair means he's unlikely to want to settle down, have kids and be faithful. What does she ask him? What should he be expected to share? Have you dated a guy who had an affair and did it work out? Why/why not?
Rule #1: Guys who have affairs once will be able to justify them again at some future point in time;
Rule #2: Patterns tend to repeat themselves with other people, so even if your friend is wicked nice, he will be the same and she will react to his negativity and you get a crap sandwich for lunch and told to enjoy it;
Rule #3: Look at how he treats his ex, kids and talks about his mother. If his mother is domineering, watch out. If he has mommy issues in any shape or form, run away now. Not your job to analyze or fix a partner;
Rule #4: Real men love being open and loving and will go out of their way to please their partner, because they realize the more you give the more you get back;
Rule #5: What Danf said. Wash, rinse, repeat.
DTMFA. Tell your friend to TRUST HER INTUITION. Let him be somebody's else's problems, not her long-term fix-it projects. At least with a house or a car, you get some use out of it and they don't treat you like shit. I say buh-bye now, tightlipped man. That's never a good sign, IMHO.
Good luck, Friend! Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt. My new shirt says, "Mess with the moose, you get the antlers!" Get that attitude on, girlfriend, and you will never go wrong.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 9:22 AM on May 17, 2012 [6 favorites]
Rule #2: Patterns tend to repeat themselves with other people, so even if your friend is wicked nice, he will be the same and she will react to his negativity and you get a crap sandwich for lunch and told to enjoy it;
Rule #3: Look at how he treats his ex, kids and talks about his mother. If his mother is domineering, watch out. If he has mommy issues in any shape or form, run away now. Not your job to analyze or fix a partner;
Rule #4: Real men love being open and loving and will go out of their way to please their partner, because they realize the more you give the more you get back;
Rule #5: What Danf said. Wash, rinse, repeat.
DTMFA. Tell your friend to TRUST HER INTUITION. Let him be somebody's else's problems, not her long-term fix-it projects. At least with a house or a car, you get some use out of it and they don't treat you like shit. I say buh-bye now, tightlipped man. That's never a good sign, IMHO.
Good luck, Friend! Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt. My new shirt says, "Mess with the moose, you get the antlers!" Get that attitude on, girlfriend, and you will never go wrong.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 9:22 AM on May 17, 2012 [6 favorites]
My friend thinks things are going well in this still-new relationship.
He is tight-lipped about his marriage and the divorce, however, and she has lots of questions.
Things are not going well if he's unwilling to be open and honest about something that she has legitimate concerns about.
That, more than whatever may or may not have happened in his past, is the red flag for me here.
posted by ryanshepard at 9:23 AM on May 17, 2012 [5 favorites]
He is tight-lipped about his marriage and the divorce, however, and she has lots of questions.
Things are not going well if he's unwilling to be open and honest about something that she has legitimate concerns about.
That, more than whatever may or may not have happened in his past, is the red flag for me here.
posted by ryanshepard at 9:23 AM on May 17, 2012 [5 favorites]
Being seriously involved with a man before and through a divorce without even a basic idea of how that divorce went down indicates the missing of a lot of really massive may day parade style red flags. That she is not even sure if these profoundly basic, healthy, and necessary questions are acceptable indicates that this dude is a skilled manipulative creep.
Besides, the best and only real predictor of future behavior is past behavior. Also, given that your friend has gotten as far with this man as she has and still does not have answers to these REALLY BASIC QUESTIONS, the probability of success is somewhere between profoundly unlikely and no.
The disconnect here between planning a future with this guy and not really knowing a damn thing about him is pretty massive.
posted by Blasdelb at 9:25 AM on May 17, 2012 [3 favorites]
Besides, the best and only real predictor of future behavior is past behavior. Also, given that your friend has gotten as far with this man as she has and still does not have answers to these REALLY BASIC QUESTIONS, the probability of success is somewhere between profoundly unlikely and no.
The disconnect here between planning a future with this guy and not really knowing a damn thing about him is pretty massive.
posted by Blasdelb at 9:25 AM on May 17, 2012 [3 favorites]
Of course these things are always complicated and the affair may be as much a symptom as a cause of his marriage breaking up.
That doesn't augur well, either. If his response to problems in the marriage was to have an affair, that's not a good sign, is it?
Combined with the whole "tight-lipped" thing, I wouldn't be sanguine about there being a happy ending here for my friend.
posted by Sidhedevil at 9:25 AM on May 17, 2012 [2 favorites]
That doesn't augur well, either. If his response to problems in the marriage was to have an affair, that's not a good sign, is it?
Combined with the whole "tight-lipped" thing, I wouldn't be sanguine about there being a happy ending here for my friend.
posted by Sidhedevil at 9:25 AM on May 17, 2012 [2 favorites]
I am about to share with you the root of all relationship wisdom, which I hope you will share with your friend.
If something about someone else's behavior feels weird to you, it probably should, and investigating why will lead you to the wisdom behind why it felt like something weird and not something known. This dude's behavior seemed weird to her, and you will get a lot of excellent advice for her in this question from folks who have followed similar threads of weird feelings before. Really I hope you can convince your friend to not only carefully and calculatedly DTMFA, but also to trust her instincts and then think through them.
Women in particular are generally socialized to not trust their instincts, to devalue them, and to consider them irrational. This only serves one purpose, to make women more vulnerable and manipulate-able.
posted by Blasdelb at 9:28 AM on May 17, 2012 [18 favorites]
If something about someone else's behavior feels weird to you, it probably should, and investigating why will lead you to the wisdom behind why it felt like something weird and not something known. This dude's behavior seemed weird to her, and you will get a lot of excellent advice for her in this question from folks who have followed similar threads of weird feelings before. Really I hope you can convince your friend to not only carefully and calculatedly DTMFA, but also to trust her instincts and then think through them.
Women in particular are generally socialized to not trust their instincts, to devalue them, and to consider them irrational. This only serves one purpose, to make women more vulnerable and manipulate-able.
posted by Blasdelb at 9:28 AM on May 17, 2012 [18 favorites]
What should he be expected to share?
Basically, anything. If he's interested in continuing to date her, he should share anything she is interesting in hearing about. He doesn't have to if he doesn't want to. But, if he insists on withholding information about this that she'd like to know, well, she would be perfectly in her rights to see this as good reason to break things off.
posted by John Cohen at 9:28 AM on May 17, 2012 [2 favorites]
Basically, anything. If he's interested in continuing to date her, he should share anything she is interesting in hearing about. He doesn't have to if he doesn't want to. But, if he insists on withholding information about this that she'd like to know, well, she would be perfectly in her rights to see this as good reason to break things off.
posted by John Cohen at 9:28 AM on May 17, 2012 [2 favorites]
Everyone here is assuming the worst, mostly because he won't speak up for himself and say anything about his perspectives in the breakup. Everyone has a story in which their own actions make sense, but if he's not going to share his story, his actions indicate that he's not trustworthy or interested in a long-haul commitment.
Maybe we're all correct about him, and his story will make sense only in the "unreliable narrator" type of literature, and he will be revealed as self-centered, unwilling to compromise, or otherwise unsuitable. Or maybe he'll come off as totally reasonable. Your friend needs to point out to him that his lack of cooperation in creating a trustworthy impression of himself is essentially a deal-breaker.
posted by aimedwander at 9:31 AM on May 17, 2012 [2 favorites]
Maybe we're all correct about him, and his story will make sense only in the "unreliable narrator" type of literature, and he will be revealed as self-centered, unwilling to compromise, or otherwise unsuitable. Or maybe he'll come off as totally reasonable. Your friend needs to point out to him that his lack of cooperation in creating a trustworthy impression of himself is essentially a deal-breaker.
posted by aimedwander at 9:31 AM on May 17, 2012 [2 favorites]
You know the old joke about the scorpion and the frog? There's a reason it's an old joke. It's because shit like this happens all the time. It has happened all the time. It will happen again.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 9:31 AM on May 17, 2012 [4 favorites]
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 9:31 AM on May 17, 2012 [4 favorites]
Rule #1: Guys who have affairs once will be able to justify them again at some future point in time;
That is crap. That is like saying someone who has been to prison will commit a crime. Yes, the chances are higher, but it's by no means a truth. Some people reoffend, some people don't. Because context matters.
Until you know why an affair occurred in specific detail, and the motivations and experiences of each party, generalised statements like that are not only false, they hurt people. And since you will probably know the whole story from all perspectives, chances are you will probably not at any point be able to make an assessment. If a man has had four wives and cheated on all of them, sure, interpret a point. But one wife? How can you say?
If a man goes to prison four times, each time for murder, then yes, he is probably not going to change. But heaps of people go to prison for murder, come out, and don't murder again. People learn, change, and adapt, and your statement takes that out of the equation leading to stereotyping -- hurtful stereotyping.
Perhaps the guy's marriage and divorce were so painful that he does not ever want to think about them again. Perhaps the dynamic between he and his wife was such that it drove him to the affair. Who knows? Maybe they know. But you do not know and that overarching rule helps exactly no one.
posted by nickrussell at 9:32 AM on May 17, 2012 [20 favorites]
That is crap. That is like saying someone who has been to prison will commit a crime. Yes, the chances are higher, but it's by no means a truth. Some people reoffend, some people don't. Because context matters.
Until you know why an affair occurred in specific detail, and the motivations and experiences of each party, generalised statements like that are not only false, they hurt people. And since you will probably know the whole story from all perspectives, chances are you will probably not at any point be able to make an assessment. If a man has had four wives and cheated on all of them, sure, interpret a point. But one wife? How can you say?
If a man goes to prison four times, each time for murder, then yes, he is probably not going to change. But heaps of people go to prison for murder, come out, and don't murder again. People learn, change, and adapt, and your statement takes that out of the equation leading to stereotyping -- hurtful stereotyping.
Perhaps the guy's marriage and divorce were so painful that he does not ever want to think about them again. Perhaps the dynamic between he and his wife was such that it drove him to the affair. Who knows? Maybe they know. But you do not know and that overarching rule helps exactly no one.
posted by nickrussell at 9:32 AM on May 17, 2012 [20 favorites]
Having the affair is not the problem. Refusing to talk about it is the problem.
posted by moammargaret at 9:36 AM on May 17, 2012 [3 favorites]
posted by moammargaret at 9:36 AM on May 17, 2012 [3 favorites]
Before she asks him anything, she needs to ask herself some things, and be completely honest with the answer: Would assurances actually assuage her fears at all?
Because if you ask a person you're dating, "Are you likely to be shitty to me, in this relationship?" or whatever essentially amounts to the same, then the only way this can possibly have a decent result is if you accept ahead of time that what you really want is to hear them say no, and just hearing it will settle your mind.
Otherwise, it's a question whose asking can cause trouble and whose answer will provide no useful information. Either he'll say yes, which he won't, or he'll say no and be telling the truth or he'll say no and be lying, but either way he'll say no and she'll have no way of knowing which of the two she's hearing. So if she's not prepared to be satisfied with empty assurance, there's no useful conversation to have.
If nothing else, it'd be good for her to know what her hopes or expectations for this relationship are (or where her ideal relationship would be headed, under ideal circumstances) and to know his answer to the same question.
Beyond that, it sounds like she needs to decide, with the information she has, either to trust him or not. If I were in this situation, I don't think I would, but it's her decision.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 9:36 AM on May 17, 2012 [3 favorites]
Because if you ask a person you're dating, "Are you likely to be shitty to me, in this relationship?" or whatever essentially amounts to the same, then the only way this can possibly have a decent result is if you accept ahead of time that what you really want is to hear them say no, and just hearing it will settle your mind.
Otherwise, it's a question whose asking can cause trouble and whose answer will provide no useful information. Either he'll say yes, which he won't, or he'll say no and be telling the truth or he'll say no and be lying, but either way he'll say no and she'll have no way of knowing which of the two she's hearing. So if she's not prepared to be satisfied with empty assurance, there's no useful conversation to have.
If nothing else, it'd be good for her to know what her hopes or expectations for this relationship are (or where her ideal relationship would be headed, under ideal circumstances) and to know his answer to the same question.
Beyond that, it sounds like she needs to decide, with the information she has, either to trust him or not. If I were in this situation, I don't think I would, but it's her decision.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 9:36 AM on May 17, 2012 [3 favorites]
What aimedwanderer said. He's unwilling to explain himself - even self-servingly, even for the purpose of deception - to someone who should reasonably expect an explanation.
That in itself isn't good. Could be that if you looked under that rock, you wouldn't find anything sinister. But the fact that you're not allowed to look under that rock, is itself another rock that needs to be looked under.
Every time this guy does anything she's going to be wondering what's behind it. If it's harmless or if he's concealing a whole double life. Withholding this information is a form of domination and will hurt her, no matter what the withheld information turns out to be.
posted by tel3path at 9:38 AM on May 17, 2012 [2 favorites]
That in itself isn't good. Could be that if you looked under that rock, you wouldn't find anything sinister. But the fact that you're not allowed to look under that rock, is itself another rock that needs to be looked under.
Every time this guy does anything she's going to be wondering what's behind it. If it's harmless or if he's concealing a whole double life. Withholding this information is a form of domination and will hurt her, no matter what the withheld information turns out to be.
posted by tel3path at 9:38 AM on May 17, 2012 [2 favorites]
paindemie: " But her insecurities about various little things all seem to lead back to wondering if the fact he had an affair means he's unlikely to want to settle down, have kids and be faithful."
Just to reiterate, these are objectively not insecurities. These are rational and healthy concerns that for which the burden absolutely must be on him to alleviate, if only because it is his established behavior that is provoking these rational and totally not crazy at all concerns. This is really what concerns me about the post, much more than the many many other indications of his deuchiness and incompatibility with someone who wants to settle down. That your friend frames her valid and totally trustworthy concerns as insecurities is a pretty big disconnect from healthy decision making, and one that is awfully convenient for him.
posted by Blasdelb at 9:44 AM on May 17, 2012 [4 favorites]
Just to reiterate, these are objectively not insecurities. These are rational and healthy concerns that for which the burden absolutely must be on him to alleviate, if only because it is his established behavior that is provoking these rational and totally not crazy at all concerns. This is really what concerns me about the post, much more than the many many other indications of his deuchiness and incompatibility with someone who wants to settle down. That your friend frames her valid and totally trustworthy concerns as insecurities is a pretty big disconnect from healthy decision making, and one that is awfully convenient for him.
posted by Blasdelb at 9:44 AM on May 17, 2012 [4 favorites]
Of course these things are always complicated and the affair may be as much a symptom as a cause of his marriage breaking up.
Cars are complicated. Sometimes cars blow up, and people are hurt and die. Let's say you make cars, and one of them blew up and people were hurt. That wouldn't necessarily be the end of your business. You could overcome it. You could get people to buy your cars again.
But you'd have to be open and honest about what happened. I wouldn't buy a car from you unless you could point to the things that you had done to investigate the causes of the explosion, and to prevent other cars from exploding. If it turned out that parts had failed, you found ways to improve on those parts. If it turned out that it was just a freak accident, you could show, definitively, that it really was a freak accident, and also, you were taking the following steps to make your cars safer in the event of freak accidents like this one. And you outlined the steps. And you showed by your actions that you were deeply sorry -- horrified, really -- that this had happened and you were going to make damn sure it never happened again.
You could also just make really safe cars and not tell anybody about it and hopefully, if you stayed in business for long enough, maybe people would notice your track record and that, since that one incident, your cars have had a perfect record. This can work, as long as you're confident you can stay in business that long. It doesn't work if your cars keep blowing up, though. You've got to have a really good record for a long time. It's a lot of pressure.
Your friend's boyfriend might have been in a freak relationship accident. It might not be his fault at all. But he should consider that he's got to earn your friend's trust, and that opening up about what he's done to ensure that his next car doesn't blow up -- so to speak -- might help him to earn that trust in a way that would maybe be easier for him than some of the alternatives.
posted by gauche at 9:48 AM on May 17, 2012 [3 favorites]
Cars are complicated. Sometimes cars blow up, and people are hurt and die. Let's say you make cars, and one of them blew up and people were hurt. That wouldn't necessarily be the end of your business. You could overcome it. You could get people to buy your cars again.
But you'd have to be open and honest about what happened. I wouldn't buy a car from you unless you could point to the things that you had done to investigate the causes of the explosion, and to prevent other cars from exploding. If it turned out that parts had failed, you found ways to improve on those parts. If it turned out that it was just a freak accident, you could show, definitively, that it really was a freak accident, and also, you were taking the following steps to make your cars safer in the event of freak accidents like this one. And you outlined the steps. And you showed by your actions that you were deeply sorry -- horrified, really -- that this had happened and you were going to make damn sure it never happened again.
You could also just make really safe cars and not tell anybody about it and hopefully, if you stayed in business for long enough, maybe people would notice your track record and that, since that one incident, your cars have had a perfect record. This can work, as long as you're confident you can stay in business that long. It doesn't work if your cars keep blowing up, though. You've got to have a really good record for a long time. It's a lot of pressure.
Your friend's boyfriend might have been in a freak relationship accident. It might not be his fault at all. But he should consider that he's got to earn your friend's trust, and that opening up about what he's done to ensure that his next car doesn't blow up -- so to speak -- might help him to earn that trust in a way that would maybe be easier for him than some of the alternatives.
posted by gauche at 9:48 AM on May 17, 2012 [3 favorites]
"If a man goes to prison four times, each time for murder, then yes, he is probably not going to change. But heaps of people go to prison for murder, come out, and don't murder again. People learn, change, and adapt, and your statement takes that out of the equation leading to stereotyping -- hurtful stereotyping.When asked to have their car borrowed by someone, the cluefull remember the state of the potential borrowers car and the number of dings and scratches to factor that into the decision. The potential borrower doesn't have some kind of right to the cluefull person's car, or some kind of right to have their past car care not count towards the decision. Its the cluefull person's car.
Perhaps the guy's marriage and divorce were so painful that he does not ever want to think about them again. Perhaps the dynamic between he and his wife was such that it drove him to the affair. Who knows? Maybe they know. But you do not know and that overarching rule helps exactly no one."
Similarly the OP's friend's boyfriend does not have some kind of right to the OP's friend's heart, much less her fertility, or some kind or right to have his past care for his ex-wife's heart not count. If the guy's marriage and divorce were really so painful that he is honestly incapable of being honest about who he is and where he comes from then he is also by default incapable of participating in any kind of serious and healthy relationship. Even if we were to warp this entire narrative around the profoundly unlikely possibility of him not being a deuchebag, this would still not be a good idea. Folks with a healthy perspective on relationships see this kind of inability to share BASIC BIOGRAPHICAL DETAILS, much less ones occurring simultaneously with the relationship, as an absolute deal breaker for relationships where fidelity might be important or settling down and KIDS might be involved.
posted by Blasdelb at 10:05 AM on May 17, 2012 [4 favorites]
Ordinarily, asking about marriage and kids a few months in might seem high-pressure, but I think someone in his situation needs to have the answers to these questions, and needs to be willing to share them. By "his situation" I don't just mean the affair, in fact I mostly mean the kids--someone with responsibilities as a parent needs to be able to articulate how he understands, prioritizes, and meets those responsibilities. That includes articulating how he views his dating relationships in the context of his existing family.
Personally, I'd want to know a lot about his thoughts and values regarding parenting and marriage. I'd want to know what happened in his first marriage, what he thinks about his behavior in it, what led to him living across the country from his kids, what he thinks his responsibilities as a parent are, and what his future hopes are in terms of wanting or not wanting to settle down, get married again, and have more kids.
If he's unwilling to have that conversation, that's not your friend being insecure: that's her gut telling her that this isn't the right relationship for her.
posted by Meg_Murry at 11:25 AM on May 17, 2012
Personally, I'd want to know a lot about his thoughts and values regarding parenting and marriage. I'd want to know what happened in his first marriage, what he thinks about his behavior in it, what led to him living across the country from his kids, what he thinks his responsibilities as a parent are, and what his future hopes are in terms of wanting or not wanting to settle down, get married again, and have more kids.
If he's unwilling to have that conversation, that's not your friend being insecure: that's her gut telling her that this isn't the right relationship for her.
posted by Meg_Murry at 11:25 AM on May 17, 2012
There is a mountain of negativity here. Look, this dude may just be a scumbag, cheating, no good liar.
But he also might be a completely reasonable person who cheated for a lot of reasons you, your friend & the internet have no inkling of. Maybe it was an abusive marriage. Maybe she was cleaning out his bank account. Who knows?
Do I think this guy should be more communicative? Yeah, if for no other reason than to dispel the kind of thing we're seeing in this thread. But his silence and past actions do not guarantee anything about his future. Tell your friend to proceed with optimistic caution.
posted by GilloD at 11:33 AM on May 17, 2012 [1 favorite]
But he also might be a completely reasonable person who cheated for a lot of reasons you, your friend & the internet have no inkling of. Maybe it was an abusive marriage. Maybe she was cleaning out his bank account. Who knows?
Do I think this guy should be more communicative? Yeah, if for no other reason than to dispel the kind of thing we're seeing in this thread. But his silence and past actions do not guarantee anything about his future. Tell your friend to proceed with optimistic caution.
posted by GilloD at 11:33 AM on May 17, 2012 [1 favorite]
This is so typical in ask.meta on relationships that advice is so one-sided fear mongering.
It sounds like you friend is just insecure and prying. There are a lot of reasons why people cheat in a relationship and often is because something is wrong anyway.
It sounds like your friend is looking for an excuse to get out of the relationship herself. Any answers that he has about this stuff will not help.
posted by mary8nne at 11:39 AM on May 17, 2012
It sounds like you friend is just insecure and prying. There are a lot of reasons why people cheat in a relationship and often is because something is wrong anyway.
It sounds like your friend is looking for an excuse to get out of the relationship herself. Any answers that he has about this stuff will not help.
posted by mary8nne at 11:39 AM on May 17, 2012
There are a lot of reasons why people cheat in a relationship and often is because something is wrong anyway.
I wouldn't want to be in a relationship with someone who thought that cheating was an appropriate response to problems in a relationship.
posted by Sidhedevil at 11:47 AM on May 17, 2012 [11 favorites]
I wouldn't want to be in a relationship with someone who thought that cheating was an appropriate response to problems in a relationship.
posted by Sidhedevil at 11:47 AM on May 17, 2012 [11 favorites]
Personally, I feel there's cheating and there's cheating. Someone may be "a cheater." On the other hand, someone may be in an emotionally and/or physically dead relationship. I don't think the latter is an indicator of future faithfulness.
However, yeah, he's got to talk about it. Not just so you can tell which is which, but because you want to know why his marriage broke down. What did he need that he didn't get? Your friend needs to know that, or this relationship may well fail for the very same reason.
posted by musofire at 12:04 PM on May 17, 2012 [1 favorite]
However, yeah, he's got to talk about it. Not just so you can tell which is which, but because you want to know why his marriage broke down. What did he need that he didn't get? Your friend needs to know that, or this relationship may well fail for the very same reason.
posted by musofire at 12:04 PM on May 17, 2012 [1 favorite]
I wouldn't want to be in a relationship with someone who thought that cheating was an appropriate response to problems in a relationship.
I don't think that's what mary8nne said at all. It's pretty easy to say "cheaters never change, run away!" but whatever. We're not talking about statistics, we're talking about an individual guy who may or may not repeat his errors. We do not have anything like enough data to make a guess about this specific human here.
To be honest, the "tight-lipped" thing would worry me more than the infidelity. If this relationship is 3 - 6 months old, I'd want full disclosure. That aside, I don't think his background makes any difference in terms of their compatibility; if she's looking to get married and have kids, she needs to only date people who are open to that, and she can't screen for those perspective partners if she doesn't ask. This is what grownups do.
posted by DarlingBri at 12:13 PM on May 17, 2012 [2 favorites]
I don't think that's what mary8nne said at all. It's pretty easy to say "cheaters never change, run away!" but whatever. We're not talking about statistics, we're talking about an individual guy who may or may not repeat his errors. We do not have anything like enough data to make a guess about this specific human here.
To be honest, the "tight-lipped" thing would worry me more than the infidelity. If this relationship is 3 - 6 months old, I'd want full disclosure. That aside, I don't think his background makes any difference in terms of their compatibility; if she's looking to get married and have kids, she needs to only date people who are open to that, and she can't screen for those perspective partners if she doesn't ask. This is what grownups do.
posted by DarlingBri at 12:13 PM on May 17, 2012 [2 favorites]
After a few months in, your friend has a right to ask some questions.
That said, we don't know what happened with the marriage or the affair. He's within his rights to talk about that, or not.
If he doesn't want to talk about it -- that's perfectly OK, and probably understandable given how fresh it still is. His not wanting to talk just means he's probably not ready for the relationship your friend is. There may be no red flags at all, just two people with bad timing.
posted by Capt. Renault at 2:08 PM on May 17, 2012
That said, we don't know what happened with the marriage or the affair. He's within his rights to talk about that, or not.
If he doesn't want to talk about it -- that's perfectly OK, and probably understandable given how fresh it still is. His not wanting to talk just means he's probably not ready for the relationship your friend is. There may be no red flags at all, just two people with bad timing.
posted by Capt. Renault at 2:08 PM on May 17, 2012
After a few months in, your friend has a right to ask some questions.
One has the right to a fair trial. One has the right to private property. There is no 'right' to ask questions. It's a negotiation. 'Hey, I would like to know about the time you stepped out.' 'Yeah, don't really want to talk about that. Just want to put it behind me.' 'Well, I would really like to know.' 'I get that but I really don't want to talk about it.' 'If you loved me, you would tell me.' 'If you loved me, you wouldn't ask'. And so on.
It's not a right to know. That's perverting choice. If his non-discussion is a deal breaker, than she needs to own that. 'I am breaking it off with you because you refuse to discuss your previous infidelity.' And he will either respond 'Okay, let's discuss it. I didn't realise it was that important.' or he will say, 'OK. I understand. You have your needs, I have mine, and they're not the same.'
She needs to own that. She needs to gauge which is more important in the context. If he will not speak about it right now, is that a deal breaker? Either it is or it's not. In six months time, if she still wants to know, and he still does not want to talk about it, is it a deal breaker or not?
This is so typical in ask.meta on relationships that advice is so one-sided fear mongering.
Thank you for saying that, because there's a lot of demonisation and black or white categorisation going on here. The man's wife could have psychologically tortured him. She may have cheated on him. He may have thought she was cheating on him, cheated on her to get back at her, and then watched his world crumbled when it turns out she did not. Only two people know the answer to that question. And one of them doesn't want to talk about it.
If he is withholding this, then there are two further possibilities. He may be a withholder, and a person of bad character, or he may simply not want to go there. In either case, there will be other behaviours. If he is generally wonderful and open, and is a great fit except for this, then that's one kind of a person. If he is a liar and cheater, chances are that he will lie and cheat in other places as well. Unless he is a psychopath, and then good god, she will assuredly wind up in a cult, living in a basement, sewing her own clothes, whilst hiding from the sunlight.
Pardon me for saying this, but if the OP is going to take this deluge offline, please take the knowledge that a lot of these comments say more about the people making them, than the situation itself. It's a big pile of anecdotal evidence, and quite frankly, a lot of it sounds like venting or spite.
posted by nickrussell at 3:23 PM on May 17, 2012 [4 favorites]
One has the right to a fair trial. One has the right to private property. There is no 'right' to ask questions. It's a negotiation. 'Hey, I would like to know about the time you stepped out.' 'Yeah, don't really want to talk about that. Just want to put it behind me.' 'Well, I would really like to know.' 'I get that but I really don't want to talk about it.' 'If you loved me, you would tell me.' 'If you loved me, you wouldn't ask'. And so on.
It's not a right to know. That's perverting choice. If his non-discussion is a deal breaker, than she needs to own that. 'I am breaking it off with you because you refuse to discuss your previous infidelity.' And he will either respond 'Okay, let's discuss it. I didn't realise it was that important.' or he will say, 'OK. I understand. You have your needs, I have mine, and they're not the same.'
She needs to own that. She needs to gauge which is more important in the context. If he will not speak about it right now, is that a deal breaker? Either it is or it's not. In six months time, if she still wants to know, and he still does not want to talk about it, is it a deal breaker or not?
This is so typical in ask.meta on relationships that advice is so one-sided fear mongering.
Thank you for saying that, because there's a lot of demonisation and black or white categorisation going on here. The man's wife could have psychologically tortured him. She may have cheated on him. He may have thought she was cheating on him, cheated on her to get back at her, and then watched his world crumbled when it turns out she did not. Only two people know the answer to that question. And one of them doesn't want to talk about it.
If he is withholding this, then there are two further possibilities. He may be a withholder, and a person of bad character, or he may simply not want to go there. In either case, there will be other behaviours. If he is generally wonderful and open, and is a great fit except for this, then that's one kind of a person. If he is a liar and cheater, chances are that he will lie and cheat in other places as well. Unless he is a psychopath, and then good god, she will assuredly wind up in a cult, living in a basement, sewing her own clothes, whilst hiding from the sunlight.
Pardon me for saying this, but if the OP is going to take this deluge offline, please take the knowledge that a lot of these comments say more about the people making them, than the situation itself. It's a big pile of anecdotal evidence, and quite frankly, a lot of it sounds like venting or spite.
posted by nickrussell at 3:23 PM on May 17, 2012 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: OP here. Of course folks are going to generalize (and assume the worst, I guess) if I don't give more specifics about this guy. I'm sorry I don't have more info - I haven't met him, and the bits and pieces she has shared won't help much here. That's why I asked some concrete questions. My friend probably could have asked more questions up til now, and he's not going out of his way to dive in. This is a new situation for my friend and I'm trying to help her figure out where to begin.
I'd especially be interested in hearing more from folks who dated people who have had affairs, or people who have had affairs and are back in the dating world for some perspective from the other side. Let me reiterate what I asked:
1) What does she ask him?
2) What should he be expected to share?
3) Have you dated a guy who had an affair and did it work out? Why/why not?
Thanks.
posted by paindemie at 3:57 PM on May 17, 2012
I'd especially be interested in hearing more from folks who dated people who have had affairs, or people who have had affairs and are back in the dating world for some perspective from the other side. Let me reiterate what I asked:
1) What does she ask him?
2) What should he be expected to share?
3) Have you dated a guy who had an affair and did it work out? Why/why not?
Thanks.
posted by paindemie at 3:57 PM on May 17, 2012
I suppose I do actually count in your requirement, though not in as many ways as your friend does.
1 & 2:
That actual questions and answers don't matter so much as the result of the communication. Just off the top of my head, the result needs to be detailed enough enough that your friend has a reasonably solid idea of why the affair happened, how the situation with the ex-wife went down, what the situation with the ex-wife is currently, how he feels about having an affair, how her relationship with him is plausibly different from his relationship with his ex-wife, and roughly how the logistics of his life will work from here on out. He needs to share enough to be at least roughly predictable.
3:
It did not work out.
posted by Blasdelb at 4:23 PM on May 17, 2012
1 & 2:
That actual questions and answers don't matter so much as the result of the communication. Just off the top of my head, the result needs to be detailed enough enough that your friend has a reasonably solid idea of why the affair happened, how the situation with the ex-wife went down, what the situation with the ex-wife is currently, how he feels about having an affair, how her relationship with him is plausibly different from his relationship with his ex-wife, and roughly how the logistics of his life will work from here on out. He needs to share enough to be at least roughly predictable.
3:
It did not work out.
posted by Blasdelb at 4:23 PM on May 17, 2012
She and Nancy are wearing the same boots. What are they made for?
posted by phoebus at 5:07 PM on May 17, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by phoebus at 5:07 PM on May 17, 2012 [1 favorite]
To answer #3 - yeah, it did not work out.
The tight-lipped stuff you've mentioned reminds me of that guy, FWIW.
If she wants to know about something, she should be direct. If she feels she can not be direct.... Everyone else has said it up thread.
Tell her to trust her instincts more.
Peace.
posted by jbenben at 5:47 PM on May 17, 2012
The tight-lipped stuff you've mentioned reminds me of that guy, FWIW.
If she wants to know about something, she should be direct. If she feels she can not be direct.... Everyone else has said it up thread.
Tell her to trust her instincts more.
Peace.
posted by jbenben at 5:47 PM on May 17, 2012
I'm the friend. I broke things off with the guy but hope to stay friends. He was less tight-lipped than my friend described, and I was more up-front about my life hopes than she described as well. But there were plenty of other red flags: partying til 3 am, drinking before noon, and generally showing himself to be more of an "outside cat," at least for now. He loves his kids immensely and I respect him tremendously for the pain he's endured to maintain a good relationship with them. I just know I need something different. And he probably needs more therapy.
posted by hummingbirdjoy at 10:26 PM on May 30, 2012
posted by hummingbirdjoy at 10:26 PM on May 30, 2012
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posted by Danf at 9:14 AM on May 17, 2012 [3 favorites]