Can an elderly person who has lost their will to live actually induce a physiological problem solely with the power of their mind?
May 16, 2012 11:27 AM Subscribe
Can an elderly person who has lost their will to live actually induce a physiological problem solely with the power of their mind?
My 88-year-old grandfather has not been doing well since my grandmother died earlier in the month, and the last I heard was that he told my uncle he is going to finish the religious mourning period (30 days), send in his taxes, and then that is it and he is 'done.'
I deeply empathize with his situation---he has lost the love of his life and if he truly believes (which I think he does) that she is somehow waiting for him in some better place, I understand why he might choose that over maybe five more years, here, in declining health.
From a practical standpoint, I am curious though about what actually happens, physiologically, to someone like this. I have heard many stories about older people who die within a short time of a spouse. Does stress/grieving physically weaken the body somehow, in a way that older and frailer people might be more susceptible to? Or can he actually bring about 'the end' just by wanting it bad enough?
He has a home care worker and much family nearby. We are doing our best to make him comfortable. My question is not about what to do, per se. It's more that I am curious, given all the stories I have heard about people in his situation, what the possible outcomes here might be. He is 88 years old. He is 'done.' Can he really just decide that and so it goes? What, from a medical standpoint, typically causes people in his shoes to actually die just because they have decided to?
My 88-year-old grandfather has not been doing well since my grandmother died earlier in the month, and the last I heard was that he told my uncle he is going to finish the religious mourning period (30 days), send in his taxes, and then that is it and he is 'done.'
I deeply empathize with his situation---he has lost the love of his life and if he truly believes (which I think he does) that she is somehow waiting for him in some better place, I understand why he might choose that over maybe five more years, here, in declining health.
From a practical standpoint, I am curious though about what actually happens, physiologically, to someone like this. I have heard many stories about older people who die within a short time of a spouse. Does stress/grieving physically weaken the body somehow, in a way that older and frailer people might be more susceptible to? Or can he actually bring about 'the end' just by wanting it bad enough?
He has a home care worker and much family nearby. We are doing our best to make him comfortable. My question is not about what to do, per se. It's more that I am curious, given all the stories I have heard about people in his situation, what the possible outcomes here might be. He is 88 years old. He is 'done.' Can he really just decide that and so it goes? What, from a medical standpoint, typically causes people in his shoes to actually die just because they have decided to?
I recently met with a psychiatric nurse - as a result of my sister being diagnosed with cancer and being gravely ill in a matter of days. Anyway, the nurse mentioned a man (a doctor) she knew - relatively young who was diagnosed with lung cancer. He was newly diagnosed and although probably had a rough road ahead of him it wasn't "the end." At least physically. The man hosted a wonderful dinner with his close friends and family - a big Italian dinner, some nice wine. He then went to bed that night and never woke up. He died naturally. He chose to go. I don't know the science behind it. The man wasn't "depressed." He wasn't morose. His body wasn't terribly wracked with the cancer. He just chose to go. I don't know how one goes about doing this - and so quickly. It's one thing to become depressed and have the life leave you slowly. But with this man, it was clearly a decision and it happened.
posted by Sassyfras at 11:37 AM on May 16, 2012
posted by Sassyfras at 11:37 AM on May 16, 2012
I can only offer anecdotal evidence. My grandfather died when I was about 16, in 1986. Within about 6 months my grandmother had a re-emergence of a cancer that had been in remission for about 40 years and she passed away within another three to four months. It was clear almost immediately after my grandfather's death that she was lost, had no more will to carry on, etc.
posted by spicynuts at 11:38 AM on May 16, 2012
posted by spicynuts at 11:38 AM on May 16, 2012
When my grandpa died at 98 my grandma was devastated and assumed she would go soon after (they'd been together for 75 years- love of their life stuff) She was 94 and came to live with us. Sometimes I'd hear her in bed praying "I'm ready lord, take me now" and then breathe out REALLY hard, then get upset she wasn't dying. Anyway, she lived till 101.
posted by misspony at 11:42 AM on May 16, 2012 [9 favorites]
posted by misspony at 11:42 AM on May 16, 2012 [9 favorites]
Both sets of my grandparents seemed to basically do this -- my paternal grandparents died within six months of each other, and my maternal grandparents died within a few weeks. Particularly in the latter case, my maternal grandfather made it pretty clear that he had given up and was going to bed to die.
posted by scody at 11:43 AM on May 16, 2012
posted by scody at 11:43 AM on May 16, 2012
Eating and drinking can definitely be part of it; also, your immune system is very strongly influenced by your stress level, emotions, etc. (I'm having trouble quickly finding an reference for this that's not full of woo, but there's good research too.)
Regardless of the mechanism, the effect of being able to "hold on" and then "give up" is pretty well documented - here's a classic paper (PDF) about death rates among eldery Chinese people both before and after the Chinese Harvest Moon festival: Postponement of death until symbolically meaningful occasions.
posted by mskyle at 11:45 AM on May 16, 2012 [2 favorites]
Regardless of the mechanism, the effect of being able to "hold on" and then "give up" is pretty well documented - here's a classic paper (PDF) about death rates among eldery Chinese people both before and after the Chinese Harvest Moon festival: Postponement of death until symbolically meaningful occasions.
posted by mskyle at 11:45 AM on May 16, 2012 [2 favorites]
My grandfather was pretty much nonfunctional without my grandma when she was alive--he was very much the classic 1950s man that didn't know how to cook anything or pick out his own clothes, you know?--and when she died, he basically shut down. My uncle had to pick out his clothes and dress him and he just stared blankly at the funeral. He didn't eat or drink or anything by choice, though his nurse had him on some IV drips and such to keep him from starving, and died a few weeks later. He just gave up.
The brain's pretty interesting. Placebos can work even if you know they're placebos.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 11:55 AM on May 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
The brain's pretty interesting. Placebos can work even if you know they're placebos.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 11:55 AM on May 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
I think it also may be that they are dying but hold on for awhile (his will to live was driven by his love), then let go, not the other way around.
My great grandfather was on his deathbed. He said he wouldn't die until his son came home from the war. My grandfather returned from the war and the next day my great grandfather died. I don't think he created his death, as much held on as much as he could, then relaxed and let go.
posted by Vaike at 11:57 AM on May 16, 2012
My great grandfather was on his deathbed. He said he wouldn't die until his son came home from the war. My grandfather returned from the war and the next day my great grandfather died. I don't think he created his death, as much held on as much as he could, then relaxed and let go.
posted by Vaike at 11:57 AM on May 16, 2012
In our family, there was a man who spent the last decade of his life expressing his wish to die and join his late wife. This was literally all he wanted to talk about, and it became very trying to spend time with him. Just because you think you're done, that doesn't mean you can will yourself into the cornfield.
Your grandfather may emerge on the other side of this period of sharp morning feeling that there is some joy still to be had in life. My grandmother, who lost her husband of 73 years in 2010, said that one reason she is glad to still be hanging around is that as long as she lives, there is someone on earth who remembers everything about her sweetheart. Why don't you or another relative talk with your grandfather about his wife, and see if remembering her together soothes his heart?
Also, an observation: people who are feeling sad and hopeless due to grief may benefit from a short usage of anti-depressants, and someone may wish to discuss this with your grandfather's physician.
posted by Scram at 11:58 AM on May 16, 2012 [4 favorites]
Your grandfather may emerge on the other side of this period of sharp morning feeling that there is some joy still to be had in life. My grandmother, who lost her husband of 73 years in 2010, said that one reason she is glad to still be hanging around is that as long as she lives, there is someone on earth who remembers everything about her sweetheart. Why don't you or another relative talk with your grandfather about his wife, and see if remembering her together soothes his heart?
Also, an observation: people who are feeling sad and hopeless due to grief may benefit from a short usage of anti-depressants, and someone may wish to discuss this with your grandfather's physician.
posted by Scram at 11:58 AM on May 16, 2012 [4 favorites]
Here's a 2004 lit review on death postponement:
Death takes a raincheck
How safe are trick-or-treaters? An analysis of child sex crime rates on halloween.
posted by zamboni at 12:10 PM on May 16, 2012 [8 favorites]
Death takes a raincheck
RESULTS:Some related citations:
Since the early 1970s, at least 18 studies have investigated whether death rates increase or decrease before, during, or after symbolically important occasions such as holidays and birthdays. Some studies but not others have found modest evidence of temporal effects. Methodological issues have raised questions about most of the positive findings. None of the studies provides any direct evidence that a psychophysiological mechanism enables people to postpone or hasten their own death.
CONCLUSION:
Research over the past 3 decades has failed to provide convincing evidence that psychological phenomena such as "giving up" or "holding on" can influence the timing of death.
- Social relationships and their role in the consideration to hasten death
- Understanding the will to live in patients nearing death.
- Risk of acute myocardial infarction after the death of a significant person in one's life: the Determinants of Myocardial Infarction Onset Study.
How safe are trick-or-treaters? An analysis of child sex crime rates on halloween.
posted by zamboni at 12:10 PM on May 16, 2012 [8 favorites]
(Anec)Data Point: My great aunt on my father's side was in her mid-70s, and living in a home. Though frail, she was reasonably healthy, though lonely and unstimulated. On January 1st 198 she was woken by a cheery nurse: "Happy New Year, Marjorie!" she exlaimed, to which (allegedly) my aunt said "Another year? Oh, I don't think I can cope with another year", whence she promptly passed away...
posted by benzo8 at 1:10 PM on May 16, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by benzo8 at 1:10 PM on May 16, 2012 [2 favorites]
The even darker side of this is that some people hasten their deaths in non-obvious ways. For example breathing in a lot of pool chemicals or overdosing on over-the-counter medicines.
posted by meepmeow at 1:10 PM on May 16, 2012
posted by meepmeow at 1:10 PM on May 16, 2012
Both my grandfathers died after declaring they were 'done'. Both did it the same way: they stopped taking their meds.
My maternal granddad was devastated by life's events and died a year later. My paternal grandfather, who often said he'd turn 100 for sure, said last year he didn't think he would make it to 100 (so he must have felt worse/different). Then this year he stopped taking meds (without consulting anyone) because he did not like the side effects, got hospitalized within 10 days or so, and died at 97, only a few days before his 98 birthday. I don't know if he really wanted to go though or if this was just a result of his 'silly' decision.
But yeah, if someone does not see a point in being alive they can find one way or another to wither away. Psychological issues/trauma can have effects on one's body, I think that has been studied and verified.
posted by travelwithcats at 1:55 PM on May 16, 2012
My maternal granddad was devastated by life's events and died a year later. My paternal grandfather, who often said he'd turn 100 for sure, said last year he didn't think he would make it to 100 (so he must have felt worse/different). Then this year he stopped taking meds (without consulting anyone) because he did not like the side effects, got hospitalized within 10 days or so, and died at 97, only a few days before his 98 birthday. I don't know if he really wanted to go though or if this was just a result of his 'silly' decision.
But yeah, if someone does not see a point in being alive they can find one way or another to wither away. Psychological issues/trauma can have effects on one's body, I think that has been studied and verified.
posted by travelwithcats at 1:55 PM on May 16, 2012
Old people have a sense of 'aloneness' not the same as loneliness. All their friends have died, there is no one to talk to who shared the old times, the future is being a half-sick burden to family. Despair is reality.
I know a number of widows, very few widowers. Perhaps women are wired better for survival, or are supported by other widows and friends to an extent that male pride won't allow.
posted by Cranberry at 3:16 PM on May 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
I know a number of widows, very few widowers. Perhaps women are wired better for survival, or are supported by other widows and friends to an extent that male pride won't allow.
posted by Cranberry at 3:16 PM on May 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
I'm sorry to have to agree with all the above folks, but yes: loss of desire to live is well-known and well-documented. The thing that usually keeps people who have lost a longterm spouse going in this kind of situation is having something they're looking forward to, like a graduation, wedding, birthday or other specific event.
When my mother died, my father was totally adrift --- not only had he lost what had become his de facto occupation (taking care of her over several years of her declining health), but he also lost his the love of his life and his partner of 53 years. He said he felt empty and useless; it really wasn't much of a surprise when he died a little over a year later, one week to the day after his grandson's wedding.
posted by easily confused at 4:01 PM on May 16, 2012
When my mother died, my father was totally adrift --- not only had he lost what had become his de facto occupation (taking care of her over several years of her declining health), but he also lost his the love of his life and his partner of 53 years. He said he felt empty and useless; it really wasn't much of a surprise when he died a little over a year later, one week to the day after his grandson's wedding.
posted by easily confused at 4:01 PM on May 16, 2012
Yes, it happened with my grandfather in a similar situation. Although he was reasonably healthy but frailing, and getting along well enough at his age, he just stopped caring about anything. He was incredibly tired and depressed, stopped eating and drinking enough, and died 9 days after my grandmother.
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I don't think it fit "induce a physiological problem" and it wasn't "wanting it bad enough", it was sortof the opposite - he just stopped caring about living.
OTOH my non-blood uncle, in the same situation, lived several more years. Even though he was just as emotionally upset, it didn't occur to him to give up living. I don't think he thought about it that way, he just kept going as well as he could.
posted by caclwmr4 at 4:21 PM on May 16, 2012
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I don't think it fit "induce a physiological problem" and it wasn't "wanting it bad enough", it was sortof the opposite - he just stopped caring about living.
OTOH my non-blood uncle, in the same situation, lived several more years. Even though he was just as emotionally upset, it didn't occur to him to give up living. I don't think he thought about it that way, he just kept going as well as he could.
posted by caclwmr4 at 4:21 PM on May 16, 2012
After my grandmother broke her hip, the decline was fast, but she hung in for a time until she saw all the grandchildren from interstate, then she passed away a few hours later. She had also stopped drinking and eating. That, coupled with the ever-increasing doses of morphine, was enough to do it.
posted by smoke at 5:08 PM on May 16, 2012
posted by smoke at 5:08 PM on May 16, 2012
Lots of good anecdotal and research evidence above, so let me comment on the physiological side of things. I don't think there's any evidence that "wanting it bad enough" can make somebody die, but a lack of motivation to live can definitely lead to death. Stress hormones related to grieving can depress the immune system and raise blood sugar levels, making infection more likely. By increasing heart rate, the same hormones can tax a heart that may already be weakened with age. Not eating or drinking is the most likely problem that would lead to death, as dehydration can set in within 24 hours in an elderly person who doesn't have much body mass. Dehydration and/or malnutrition can lead to heart arrhythmias, changes in consciousness, organ failure, and death. A person who has no motivation to live also probably doesn't move around very much, making pneumonia (lung infection) much more likely because they're not taking deep breaths and clearing mucus that builds up.
When this kind of general malaise and wasting goes on in elderly people, the medical term is "failure to thrive"... which to me seems kind of an understatement, but that's what they call it. In some cases families will push their elderly loved ones to have a feeding tube placed, or other invasive interventions, but honestly I feel like we should respect the wishes of someone who feels that they're ready to go.
posted by vytae at 5:15 PM on May 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
When this kind of general malaise and wasting goes on in elderly people, the medical term is "failure to thrive"... which to me seems kind of an understatement, but that's what they call it. In some cases families will push their elderly loved ones to have a feeding tube placed, or other invasive interventions, but honestly I feel like we should respect the wishes of someone who feels that they're ready to go.
posted by vytae at 5:15 PM on May 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
Anecdotal evidence to the contrary:
My grandmother passed away 10 years ago. Upon her passing, my 80something grandfather (reluctantly) bought her the cheapest urn he could find and wrapped up his affairs. Sensing what he was planning, my mom and her brothers took away his pistol.
A few weeks later, he was pulled out of his car, alive but with severe brain swelling, after driving it into ditch. Doctors cut two big holes in his head to relieve the pressure. He survived.
Took away his car and moved him off the ranch.
A few weeks ago (!), my mom dragged him to the doctor after he had not been feeling well for a few days. Turns out he had full blown pneumonia. Walked into the doctors on his own two feet, walked out on his own two feet. With pneumonia. At 92 years old.
The man has survived prostate cancer, diabetes, heat stroke, head trauma, slips, spills, falls and surgeries for a DECADE dispite a complete non-interest in living.
He's pretty awesome.
posted by stephennelson at 5:43 PM on May 16, 2012
My grandmother passed away 10 years ago. Upon her passing, my 80something grandfather (reluctantly) bought her the cheapest urn he could find and wrapped up his affairs. Sensing what he was planning, my mom and her brothers took away his pistol.
A few weeks later, he was pulled out of his car, alive but with severe brain swelling, after driving it into ditch. Doctors cut two big holes in his head to relieve the pressure. He survived.
Took away his car and moved him off the ranch.
A few weeks ago (!), my mom dragged him to the doctor after he had not been feeling well for a few days. Turns out he had full blown pneumonia. Walked into the doctors on his own two feet, walked out on his own two feet. With pneumonia. At 92 years old.
The man has survived prostate cancer, diabetes, heat stroke, head trauma, slips, spills, falls and surgeries for a DECADE dispite a complete non-interest in living.
He's pretty awesome.
posted by stephennelson at 5:43 PM on May 16, 2012
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If you do not enjoy being alive anymore, it would sap your prana, life force, mojo, whatever you want to call it.
That would lead to a more downward spiral in general health and well-being, and it would eventually manifest itself in something biologically measurable.
posted by Danf at 11:29 AM on May 16, 2012 [1 favorite]