I feel bad saying I'm a virgin, and I feel bad saying I'm not.
March 21, 2012 5:59 PM   Subscribe

I feel bad saying I'm a virgin, and I feel bad saying I'm not.

This is all a little complicated and turbulent, but I felt the need to write it all out to explain how I feel-- sorry for the length!

I'm currently a college student with a boyfriend of 1.5 years. We're really in love, and things are great. It took a long time for our sexual relationship to begin, but he was totally new at it and I've had some bad experiences (which I'll explain) so I didn't mind. So far, we've kept it to oral sex and mutual masturbation.

I've been having oral sex with boyfriends since I was 15, and I don't feel ashamed about it. However, when I was 17, I started dating a guy, and we got engaged (I was kind of a wild child). I went on birth control so that we could have PIV sex. While I was beginning the pill but before it became effective, my boyfriend started getting really interested in anal sex. I expressed an interest, but told him I really didn't want to have anal sex until I'd had PIV sex.

Nonetheless, one night we were spooning and getting off, and he started to penetrate me anally. I know, it was wrong, possibly rape, &c. I was shocked and he didn't penetrate me that far, so I just kind of stayed in place for a couple seconds (thinking it was an accident) and then pulled away, without making waves. I was hurt and sad inside, but we were engaged and I was pretty young. Anyway, we didn't get married and I ended up breaking up with him in the next couple weeks before we ever had PIV sex.

Two years later I started dating a much older guy (almost about twice my age). We mostly stuck to oral and manual(?) sex, but started talking about PIV. I really didn't want to have sex with him, but I was in waaaaay over my head. As it happens, one day we were getting into things and he, without protection, penetrated me. He pulled out pretty fast because he didn't want to get me pregnant, but once again, I wasn't really expecting it, but didn't stop it from happening, either. (I mean, I was aroused, but my principles were shaken-- not to mention the unprotected aspect. I've been tested and everything since then.) He also did sexual things to me while I was sleeping, which I woke up to in a haze and couldn't quite remember. It was very unsavory. I hated our sex life.

So several years later (now), I'm in a relationship with a great guy. I genuinely like him, which has never been true of any guy I've dated before. He's never tried to do anything I didn't want, he's respectful, we have a ton in common, we were friends before we started dating. I'm really happy.

The thing is, I joked once with him while we were friends about something having to do with losing my virginity, which I believe is true, based on the fact that I've had plenty of oral sex and am used to operating on that definition. However, after recent discussions, I'm pretty sure he thinks that means I've had PIV sex, which oddly, surprised me. I didn't say anything at the time because I was suddenly embarrassed and ashamed.

I guess I have, but it actually makes me feel sick to my stomach to think that I don't get to choose when my first time is. I'm a feminist and I don't believe in the mystical purity of virginity or anything, but I do believe in the specialness of experiencing something for the first time with someone.

The thing is, I really don't want to tell him about my past bad experiences! They make me feel sick and I'd rather forget they ever happened. I know in terms of assault they're not violent, but they make me feel terrible that people I trusted (if not loved) did things to me I explicitly said I didn't want, or wasn't conscious during.

Is it okay to tell my boyfriend that I've never done PIV sex before? Do I have to be "honest" and tell him everything that's happened? Would it be lying? Does unwanted sex "count"? There's so much loaded language and I feel ridiculous that I'm getting caught up in this, but I think my feelings about past experiences are clouding my judgment. Obviously if there were no such thing as the concept of virginity, I wouldn't have to say anything. But what's really snagging me is that I feel like if it ever came up ("have you done this before?"), I honestly wouldn't know what to say-- yes or no? If I don't want to get into all my baggage, is it wrong to say no?

My mom was raped when she was a very young girl. She told me about it once and it was very clear from the conversation that she didn't think of it as sex at all. She decided for herself what was important to her and how to think about her sexuality. This seems really strong and brave to me, but since my experiences were so much less... traumatic? I feel guilty. I don't want to have the integrity of a "born-again" virgin.

Anyhow, this is a mess, but I've honestly never heard anyone talk about this before-- whether they tell their boyfriend everything, if it's okay to leave it out, how they felt about "virginity" afterward. I would really appreciate your thoughts. Thank you.
posted by anonymous to Human Relations (29 answers total) 4 users marked this as a favorite

 
You have nothing to be embarrassed or ashamed about.
A serious and successful relationship requires openness and honesty.

Revealing your inner psychological mess to another is when a relationship is at its most raw and fragile.
But it can also form a key part of the deepest, most lasting bonds.

You only have to tell him whatever you are ready to talk about.
But you have to be honest with him, and you have to talk to him sometimes at least.
posted by Flood at 6:10 PM on March 21, 2012 [5 favorites]


You tell him whatever you feel comfortable telling him and define your experience status however you want to define it. Anybody who won't respect that decision, and for that matter anyone who isn't honored to be the other party in you experiencing your "first time" on your terms, is not worth the time. If you want to explain at length, fine. If you'd rather not mention it, or want to describe things in a general way as part of setting out your expectations and desires, that's fine too.

Nobody worth spending time with will look at you differently regardless of how you approach this.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 6:13 PM on March 21, 2012


Is it okay to tell my boyfriend that I've never done PIV sex before?

Yes. You never HAVE had it before. You were penetrated without permission.

Do I have to be "honest" and tell him everything that's happened?

No. It's your business, to tell or not as you please.

Would it be lying?

No.

Does unwanted sex "count"?

No. Sex, pretty much by definition, is consented to by both parties. Anything else isn't sex.
posted by jayder at 6:13 PM on March 21, 2012 [21 favorites]


So, in case I wasn't clear, you ARE A VIRGIN. End of story.
posted by jayder at 6:14 PM on March 21, 2012 [10 favorites]


I really feel like there are two issues here, your past and your present. Re: your past, please think about talking to a therapist or counselor about your experiences. Violent or not, youre having trouble coping with them and that deserves care and attention.

In the meantime-- you don't have to tell your boyfriend anything, but if you're in a relationship with him then I'll assume you care about him, and I'll assume he cares about you! If he cares about you, and he's a good guy, he won't judge you. That said-- maybe you still don't want to spill your guts to him, which is also fine. If he asks just say you're not comfortable talking about it. Dont lie, but don't feel obligated to share more than you want to share right away.
posted by blue_bicycle at 6:15 PM on March 21, 2012 [1 favorite]


I'm sorry that you've had these experiences. I think there's a difference here of whether you consider yourself a virgin based on your choices versus the technical fact. I think if I were in your shoes I would say that I was a virgin because you haven't chosen to give yourself to someone that way.

I also think it would be really good for you if you talk to your boyfriend about this. He sounds like a great guy, and I think he will be understanding. That openness will do a lot for your relationship. You also might want to look into talking to a school counselor to come to terms with your negative emotions surrounding these experiences.
posted by DoubleLune at 6:15 PM on March 21, 2012


I also think it's totally legitimate to say "I don't find the concept of virginity useful. I've had various sexual experiences - some satisfying and great, some not so much, some by choice and consent, some not. I am looking forward to having satisfying and great consensual experiences with you." And then if you want to get into it more when there's more trust, you can explain that the PIV experiences you've had previously were in the not-so-great category, and you are looking forward to having great PIV sex, among other things as you choose, with him.
posted by judith at 6:21 PM on March 21, 2012 [7 favorites]


There isn't any objective definition of "virginity". If you feel that "virginity" is something you identify with, go for it. Many people use the term to refer to people who have not engaged in consensual penetrative sex, a category that includes you.

You do get to choose when your "first time" is, if by that you mean your "first time" for consensual intercourse. And you don't have any obligation to tell him about any other sexual experiences you've ever had, especially since you know you're not putting him at risk of sexually transmitted disease from your non-consensual encounters (which would be something he had a right to know about).

Also, please don't get into the "what I experienced wasn't the worst thing anyone could experience, therefore I have no right to be unhappy and angry about it" trap, because that's a hell of a way to live. What you experienced was shitty and you have every right to be angry and unhappy and disappointed and any other emotions you might have. As my dear father used to say, "Your shit sandwich doesn't make my cup of piss taste any better."
posted by Sidhedevil at 6:25 PM on March 21, 2012 [25 favorites]


In general, of course it's okay to keep back and reveal what you want.

At some point, if you get there, you probably should have the 'piv' discussion because there can be some in-act physical ramifications. You sound well-informed, so I'm sure you know that they're no big deal in 99% of cases, but can be a bit of a surprise to a partner.

I think what you've been through is pretty sucky, but doesn't necessarily rise to the level of 'this is some damage I'm going to have to confess up front for this relationship to work'. Though obviously, that's something only you can tell.

Really, the whole 'I'm a virgin in this way, but not in this' is a conversation I've been on the other side a couple times and can be played as 'this is a big deal to me and i'm giving you the chance to experience it with me' or as 'this really isn't a big deal, it's just how it shook out and i'm ready now'.

It's more or less your call how you want to frame it.
posted by lumpenprole at 6:32 PM on March 21, 2012


It's okay to tell your boyfriend as much or as little as you want about your past sexual experiences.

If you don't tell him everything, it's okay to let him know that you're giving him an incomplete story - you can tell him that some "stuff" happened, but you'd rather not discuss it, and ask him to respect your boundaries. If you choose to do it this way, it will make it easier if you decide to later tell him about your past.
posted by insectosaurus at 6:37 PM on March 21, 2012


I think a pretty low-key way to frame this would be, "As far as PIV sex is concerned, I'm pretty inexperienced. Where pretty inexperienced means practically virginal." And then if you both feel the time is right for further conversation you can do that. Otherwise, he'll know that you haven't really done this before and to treat you accordingly. If you don't make a big deal out of it (if it isn't a big deal to you) then he won't make a big deal out of it either.
posted by Night_owl at 6:40 PM on March 21, 2012 [3 favorites]


As far as PIV sex goes, you've never given yourself to anyone before. That's your wording. If your boyfriend questions you on the wording, you can say that at some point soon you'll tell him the story of why you've worded it that way, but in the meantime he is your first chosen PIV partner.
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 6:44 PM on March 21, 2012 [2 favorites]


I think this kind of situation is more common than you think- not the nonconsensual aspects, but having your answer to "Are you a virgin?" be "Not... exactly, but..." I had a friend who considered herself a virgin even though she'd experimented with PIV sex with a boyfriend (they had fit issues, poor guy). If you've been with this guy for a year and a half and things are going well, I'd just tell him everything you're comfortable telling him. Don't be surprised if he's more upset about it than you are- give it some time after this conversation before you move things along in the sex department.
posted by MadamM at 6:47 PM on March 21, 2012


My mom was raped when she was a very young girl. She told me about it once and it was very clear from the conversation that she didn't think of it as sex at all. She decided for herself what was important to her and how to think about her sexuality. This seems really strong and brave to me

Your mom sounds like a very smart person. You would do well to follow in her footsteps. You get to decide your sexuality for yourself, and this goes for all aspects of your sexuality.
posted by no regrets, coyote at 6:48 PM on March 21, 2012 [8 favorites]


Sex, pretty much by definition, is consented to by both parties. Anything else isn't sex.

That isn't true. Otherwise, there'd be no way to distinguish between consensual sex and nonconsensual sex. They both exist, and it's important to draw the distinction. But the question isn't about the word "sex," it's about a different word, "virgin." "Virginity" is a very arbitrary concept that can be defined in different ways. To some people the concept might be totally meaningless (for instance, is a woman with only lesbian experiences necessarily a "virgin"? does it really matter?). If you feel you're a virgin, then that's your truth, so just say you're a virgin. End of story.
posted by John Cohen at 7:06 PM on March 21, 2012 [2 favorites]


But what's really snagging me is that I feel like if it ever came up ("have you done this before?"), I honestly wouldn't know what to say-- yes or no?

In the instances you've mentioned, it sounds like YOU didn't do anything. So I think it's quite clear that you would say "no" here.

There's also an old saw that if someone threw some eggs at you and hit you with a frying pan you wouldn't say it was your first time making an omelette. Same idea here.
posted by cairdeas at 7:18 PM on March 21, 2012 [1 favorite]


That isn't true. Otherwise, there'd be no way to distinguish between consensual sex and nonconsensual sex. They both exist

Okay, fair enough, but if boyfriend asks her "have you had sex before," the common sense interpretation of that is "have you had consensual sex before." Getting raped, on that common sense view, doesn't count as "having had sex." That's what I mean and I think that's pretty uncontroversial.
posted by jayder at 7:28 PM on March 21, 2012 [1 favorite]


Anyhow, this is a mess, but I've honestly never heard anyone talk about this before-- whether they tell their boyfriend everything, if it's okay to leave it out, how they felt about "virginity" afterward. I would really appreciate your thoughts.

I am so, so sorry. My first sexual experiences were non-consensual, and I'm afraid my own way of dealing with the issue was to have my first consensual sex as quickly as possible with the first guy who was willing enough -- to get it "out of the way" and stop it from being an issue. I think he felt like my "virginity" didn't seem special enough to me; I think that I felt that I didn't have the kind of "virginity" that other girls had, I just had technical issues.

You sound like you feel hopelessly confused by all this, but I really admire the fact that you're acknowledging these issues in the first place, and trying to deal with them head on.

Here are some of the things I think:

Purity comes from within us; it's not something that someone else can take away. I've been having lousy-to-transcendental consensual sex for nearly 20 years now, and I think of myself as pure as the driven snow. Honestly expressed lust with good, honest people is a pure thing.

You can tell your boyfriend as much or as little as you like. You get to assert your virginity -- you've had a grotesque mockery of sex perpetrated on you, but that doesn't mean you've had sex.

You can tell him nothing. That's okay. You're a virgin. You're telling the truth.

You can tell him that your ex-partners did sexual stuff to you without your consent, and so talking about virginity makes you uncomfortable because it's all mixed up for you. That's okay too.

You might even write him a letter, using the post you just wrote as a guideline. It is, after all, composed of the things you think someone needs to know to understand your sexual assault history, and how that affects your sexuality and your experience of your virginity and having sex for the first time. You do not *have* to. Choosing not to do this is NOT DISHONEST. I don't know when I first gave my husband the "sketch" outline of my sexual assault history, but it wasn't before our first time -- we'd probably been together several months. I didn't give him the detailed history -- the kind of details you go into above -- until we'd been together more than a decade.

Personally, I cannot begin to express how freeing it was for me to finally start telling the whole truth to the people I love. I didn't start with my husband -- I started with one close friend, and then another, and THEN my husband. It was like I was practicing the experience of telling. So that's what I'm really pulled to advocate for you, because it was such an important and powerful experience for me, and I want you to have that kind of experience. But it did take me a very long time to get there. Don't rush yourself.

I have chosen to withhold details about my sexual assault history from a partner until after we'd engaged in the corresponding sexual act, because I didn't want the assault to be something they were thinking of during the sex. I'm pretty satisfied with that choice.

I'm also really satisfied with the choice that I don't allow someone access to my body unless I think they can handle the truth.
posted by Iphigenia at 9:32 PM on March 21, 2012 [2 favorites]


Oh, and: on the Pervocracy blog, there is an excellent post called "Why I didn't just call the cops", about the author's sexual assault. There's one sentence that really stuck with me: "The idea that something quiet and weird and awkward could be literally rape didn't occur to me. " The post itself may be too graphic and explicit and triggery for you right now, but I found that sentence very helpful for myself, and I thought it might be helpful for you, too.
posted by Iphigenia at 9:36 PM on March 21, 2012 [1 favorite]


Response by poster: It's OK to not tell him if you don't want to. There is also no rule that says you need to count rape and non-consensual stuff as sex. Counting that shit as "losing your virginity" goes along with a pretty patriarchial definition of virginity that attaches a woman's sexual experience to whether her hymen's intact and not whether she was actually consenting and actively participating in the sex act--you know, building actual sexual experiences.

In a meaningful sense of the word, where a virgin is someone who has not yet chosen to willingly participate in a particular sexual act, you're a virgin. Have you gotten to experience PIV sex or anal sex in a manner that you feel enhances your understanding of your body, of what you do and don't like about the act, about the positions you prefer, about your desire to do it again? No? Then effectively you're a virgin. If a child (God forbid) is sexually assaulted and penetrated, is that kid not a virgin? I certainly wouldn't say so, that kid had barely any idea about what's going on and certainly no agency in the process.

If you are uncomfortable about using the word virgin, just tell your boyfriend "I'm actually pretty inexperienced in the PIV thing, so can we take it slow?"

The only reason you may want to talk to him about the assaults is you may find they affect your sex life now in ways you're not yet able to predict, and knowing the reasons behind it will help his understanding if they arise.
posted by Anonymous at 10:30 PM on March 21, 2012


I'm going to link to a previous comment of mine in another AskMe, because it reminds me of your conundrum. Here.

Was I a virgin? No. Did I feel like I'd experienced sex? Well...no.

Look, if you say that you're really, REALLY inexperienced because your previous sexual encounters have been unfinished or halting or traumatic, only a total fucking asshole would start interrogating you about whether your hymen has been broken and how we technically define "has had sex."
posted by desuetude at 10:38 PM on March 21, 2012 [2 favorites]


I don't think you need to tell him out of some sense of what your virginity means. I do think, however, that you might consider telling him for another reason. You haven't had PIV sex since you've been assaulted. There's a chance that having PIV sex now is going to stir up some shit, and it might be a good idea to let him know so that he's prepared for that possibility, and so that he can be careful to avoid anything that might trigger you. So, I don't think you have any kind of moral obligation to tell him, but I think there are practical reasons to tell him, at least before you have sex.
posted by Ragged Richard at 8:50 AM on March 22, 2012


I was sexually assaulted as a teenager and I've never been asked the "are you a virgin/have you done this before" question (I'm in my late twenties now); I think people just assume that you have (or haven't, depending) but as far as I'm concerned, I lost my virginity at 19 - not when I was assaulted - but when I consented. Is that biologically true? I guess not, but no one has ever questioned the disparity. By which I mean no one has ever said to me, "actually Sm1tten, you lost your virginity at 14, because..." but it's not like I'm having that conversation with tons of people, and none of them have been that interested in hashing it out anyway. How did I feel about my "virginity"? To be honest, I didn't have much of a feeling about it at all. It wasn't like the assault never happened but I had never placed any importance on that aspect of my sexuality and thankfully, that didn't change. And no one put me in a position where I had to really think about it, I guess.

I'm rambling. I haven't had enough coffee, but I want to add that I also dont think that just becasue your experiences weren't violent, that they were any less a violation of your body. If you think the past experiences might impact your future sex life, I think you should talk about it (not necessarily with details) with your boyfriend. In my case I had laid it to rest and it had no bearing on my sexuality; therefore I didn't share it with every partner.
posted by sm1tten at 8:56 AM on March 22, 2012


Is it okay to tell my boyfriend that I've never done PIV sex before? Do I have to be "honest" and tell him everything that's happened?

Perhaps something like: "I want to have sex with you tonight (or sometime soon). I'm a bit nervous, because I've never had real, you know, ... PIV, sex. [Hand motion]. I have had a bad experience with a guy who came on real strong and wasn't a good listener. At all. But that's not very sexy, so I don't want to talk about that. At all.

... but if you want, can we do it tonight?"

_________________________________________________

I think this would communicate to your boyfriend what you want him to know, and what will help make it a good time for you.

Also, and this is important. ... it's a bit sexy, so it gives you a chance to take ownership of your own sexuality and so on.

So it may make it a more fun and useful approach than going with "Just so you know, I was sexually assaulted/I'm a virgin, so I'm a tiny bit nervous about this."
posted by sebastienbailard at 10:38 AM on March 22, 2012


only a total fucking asshole would start interrogating you about whether your hymen has been broken and how we technically define "has had sex."

The OP's concern is not anyone interrogating her. It seems to me that her concern is just her own personal sense of what's true and what it's okay to tell someone.
posted by jayder at 11:57 AM on March 22, 2012 [1 favorite]


It's not my place to touch the whole consent/PIV stuff, but I will say this: from a public health perspective, you have had previous sexual contact. So if you decide to phrase it as "being a virgin" you should still make it clear to this boyfriend and any future partners that you nonetheless have had sometimes-unprotected anal, oral, and vaginal contact with someone else's mucous membranes. I agree it's a shame the world works this way, but venereal disease is pretty politically incorrect in its epidemiology.
posted by d. z. wang at 8:56 PM on March 22, 2012 [2 favorites]


What if, like she says, she's been tested? I'm just wondering if you're worried about something going unnoticed, or if there are risks that can't be covered by testing.
posted by stoneandstar at 3:17 AM on March 23, 2012


If you've had oral sex, you're not a virgin.

You don't specifically need to tell your boyfriend you've never had PIV sex if you don't want to. If you do want to saying something, just say you've never had vaginal intercourse with a guy, and leave it at that. You don't have to describe your sexual history as long as you're not misleading in a way that could be STD-problematic.
posted by thelastcamel at 4:40 PM on March 23, 2012


The OP's concern is not anyone interrogating her. It seems to me that her concern is just her own personal sense of what's true and what it's okay to tell someone.

Oh, but that's what I meant -- that it's not dishonest to represent her inexperience in a way that feels true to her -- that she hasn't really done "this" before -- and that it wouldn't be typical (or reasonable) for her boyfriend to expect a lot of explicit qualification of this.
posted by desuetude at 9:15 PM on March 25, 2012


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