What's the right thing to do when you see a perfect stranger engaging in what seems to be child abuse?
March 4, 2012 3:53 PM Subscribe
Saw a woman indiscriminately hitting her crying child in the parking lot. What should I have done?
The woman saw me looking at her and screamed "What the fuck are you looking at" and even if she hadn't been aggressive towards me it doesn't seem like direct confrontation would have been safe or effective.
Calling the local Child Protective Services seems like something you do when it's not an in-the-moment situation and you have names and addresses to give to personell to follow up with.
Calling 911 seems like it would get me blown off by the cops, since it's easy to pass this off as "parent disciplining child" rather than "crime" or "life-threatening situation."
I'd like to think I could have done something, and would like to do something the next time this happens. What should I have done, and what should I do?
The woman saw me looking at her and screamed "What the fuck are you looking at" and even if she hadn't been aggressive towards me it doesn't seem like direct confrontation would have been safe or effective.
Calling the local Child Protective Services seems like something you do when it's not an in-the-moment situation and you have names and addresses to give to personell to follow up with.
Calling 911 seems like it would get me blown off by the cops, since it's easy to pass this off as "parent disciplining child" rather than "crime" or "life-threatening situation."
I'd like to think I could have done something, and would like to do something the next time this happens. What should I have done, and what should I do?
911, absolutely, that's what it's for.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 4:02 PM on March 4, 2012
posted by rabbitrabbit at 4:02 PM on March 4, 2012
Since someone will ask -- what do you mean by hitting? Slapping? Spanking? Punching?
posted by k8t at 4:10 PM on March 4, 2012
posted by k8t at 4:10 PM on March 4, 2012
I would have taken a photo or video with my phone, including her license plate, immediately called 911, and then followed up with Child Protective Services the next day. The apparently correct advice is not to engage with the abuser, as that can enrage an abuser more, and abusers are more likely to turn their increased ire on the children in their care than on adults who are capable of defending themselves.
However, I'll admit that I've been in that exact circumstance in the past, and have been more antagonistic. I've taken the photos, called 911, and moved to stand (but not closely) behind the person's car (blocking egress) and stated that the police were on the way and that her license plate had been reported, as she was committing a crime. If it were a man, however, I'd probably never have had the guts (and stupidity) to do anything that confrontational.
posted by The Wrong Kind of Cheese at 4:11 PM on March 4, 2012 [3 favorites]
However, I'll admit that I've been in that exact circumstance in the past, and have been more antagonistic. I've taken the photos, called 911, and moved to stand (but not closely) behind the person's car (blocking egress) and stated that the police were on the way and that her license plate had been reported, as she was committing a crime. If it were a man, however, I'd probably never have had the guts (and stupidity) to do anything that confrontational.
posted by The Wrong Kind of Cheese at 4:11 PM on March 4, 2012 [3 favorites]
I've called 911 for good reasons (don't remember what) but said "I'm not sure if this is an emergency, but..." and that's fine with them. This seems like it IS an emergency, even if it's not something they'll get there in time to help with.
In hindsight, (with time to think about it) I might say "do you need some help?" or "I'M LOOKING AT A WOMAN HITTING A CRYING CHILD!" (for some reason I can only imagine yelling it at her.)
Or I'd go back into the store and tell security.
Or something nonsensical like "IS THERE SOMEONE I CAN CALL FOR YOU?"
Scary -- and also -- it takes being in the situation to be prepared enough (the next time) to know what to do.
posted by vitabellosi at 4:13 PM on March 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
In hindsight, (with time to think about it) I might say "do you need some help?" or "I'M LOOKING AT A WOMAN HITTING A CRYING CHILD!" (for some reason I can only imagine yelling it at her.)
Or I'd go back into the store and tell security.
Or something nonsensical like "IS THERE SOMEONE I CAN CALL FOR YOU?"
Scary -- and also -- it takes being in the situation to be prepared enough (the next time) to know what to do.
posted by vitabellosi at 4:13 PM on March 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
When I caught sight of my neighbour across the street beating the crap out of her kid, I called the cops. They got there really quick. In your situation, yea, I would take pics, call cops, if possible. Also -was this in a strip mall, with an "anchor store" (i.e., one large store surrounded by smaller ones), or in a single store parking lot? Go talk to the store, as well. If it was a mall, perhaps mall security would be another good avenue.
posted by kellyblah at 4:14 PM on March 4, 2012
posted by kellyblah at 4:14 PM on March 4, 2012
Yeah, 911 is for situations like this. I once called the local police when I saw someone sneaking into a construction area after dark -- they told me to call 911 as that's the only way to dispatch units.
posted by DoubleLune at 4:17 PM on March 4, 2012
posted by DoubleLune at 4:17 PM on March 4, 2012
The consensus is clearly to call 911, but I understand your hesitation to call and tie up resources when you're not sure if it's an emergency. If you're in this exact situation again, you know to call 911.
However, if you're in a different kind of situation and you don't want to call 911 but you want to report something, you could try the police non-emergency number. They may be able to either help you directly, or tell you to hang up and call 911.
I learned recently that 911 is for much a broader definition of emergencies that what I had previously realized - I saw a ladder lying in the middle of the freeway, and called the highway patrol (non-emergency number) to report it. They told me to hang up and immediately call 911, which I did. I had no idea that kind of thing was 911-worthy.
posted by insectosaurus at 4:35 PM on March 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
However, if you're in a different kind of situation and you don't want to call 911 but you want to report something, you could try the police non-emergency number. They may be able to either help you directly, or tell you to hang up and call 911.
I learned recently that 911 is for much a broader definition of emergencies that what I had previously realized - I saw a ladder lying in the middle of the freeway, and called the highway patrol (non-emergency number) to report it. They told me to hang up and immediately call 911, which I did. I had no idea that kind of thing was 911-worthy.
posted by insectosaurus at 4:35 PM on March 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
k8t: Who cares? Someone is hitting a child. It's true that for various* reasons that's not necessarily a crime in the US, but I think the right call is for the witness to make the report, and leave the determination of whether a crime is being committed to the people whose job that is.
*(unjustifiable IMO, but this thread isn't really the place for that)
posted by AkzidenzGrotesk at 4:35 PM on March 4, 2012 [5 favorites]
*(unjustifiable IMO, but this thread isn't really the place for that)
posted by AkzidenzGrotesk at 4:35 PM on March 4, 2012 [5 favorites]
If you know the non-emergency number for the local police, they can help: I had to do this recently, and cop cars were there within minutes.
Otherwise, I agree with calling 911 (or whatever the emergency number is in your area) and saying "I don't know if this is an emergency but..." I've called 911 a few times for things that weren't 100% clearly emergencies and they've always told me I did the right thing.
posted by The corpse in the library at 4:36 PM on March 4, 2012
Otherwise, I agree with calling 911 (or whatever the emergency number is in your area) and saying "I don't know if this is an emergency but..." I've called 911 a few times for things that weren't 100% clearly emergencies and they've always told me I did the right thing.
posted by The corpse in the library at 4:36 PM on March 4, 2012
Call the non-emergency number if you have it, or 911 if you don't. In my city, the non-emergency number is the dispatch room; I think that's standard procedure.
NYPD has a list of things to do if you see a crime in progress, and their definition of when to call 911 is easy to understand and remember.
CPS can do nothing right now. Call them only after the incident is over and the police have been contacted. And honestly, the police will probably talk to CPS anyway.
(Above all else, get the license number - it's the only information you can get safely, that will tell anyone who this person might be. If you have your cell camera, take a photo of the car and plates first.)
posted by SMPA at 4:41 PM on March 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
NYPD has a list of things to do if you see a crime in progress, and their definition of when to call 911 is easy to understand and remember.
CPS can do nothing right now. Call them only after the incident is over and the police have been contacted. And honestly, the police will probably talk to CPS anyway.
(Above all else, get the license number - it's the only information you can get safely, that will tell anyone who this person might be. If you have your cell camera, take a photo of the car and plates first.)
posted by SMPA at 4:41 PM on March 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
i would like to point out the fact that you're just assuming that was her child.
hindsight's 20/20, but definitely call 911 immediately if you see anyone of any age being assaulted.
posted by facetious at 4:43 PM on March 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
hindsight's 20/20, but definitely call 911 immediately if you see anyone of any age being assaulted.
posted by facetious at 4:43 PM on March 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
This is exactly what 9-11 is for. Anything involving a child's wellbeing is responded to FAST in my experience.
Police can only help when problems are reported so if you are safe and feel able please take the time and err on the side of over reporting, The dispatcher will be trained to evaluate whether a call requires a response or not. I fill this role and I can tell you that I would ALWAYS rather get a "I don't know if this is something I should report..." call, even if it's a small thing.
Even if all they would have been able to do this time is to file a report that says "the registered owner of vehicle plate such and such was observed loudly yelling at child in store parking lot" that means that if they receive another report of problems regarding that person later they can show that it's a repeated problem vs. an isolated incident. That could make a big difference in getting the child the help he or she needs.
posted by Sweetchrysanthemum at 4:51 PM on March 4, 2012
Police can only help when problems are reported so if you are safe and feel able please take the time and err on the side of over reporting, The dispatcher will be trained to evaluate whether a call requires a response or not. I fill this role and I can tell you that I would ALWAYS rather get a "I don't know if this is something I should report..." call, even if it's a small thing.
Even if all they would have been able to do this time is to file a report that says "the registered owner of vehicle plate such and such was observed loudly yelling at child in store parking lot" that means that if they receive another report of problems regarding that person later they can show that it's a repeated problem vs. an isolated incident. That could make a big difference in getting the child the help he or she needs.
posted by Sweetchrysanthemum at 4:51 PM on March 4, 2012
@AkzidenzGrotesk, I agree, however, I imagine that the advice here would differ if it was a smack on a 4-year-old's bottom at WalMart versus closed fist punching. For example, physically stopping the person doing the hitting might make sense under some circumstances but not others.
But yes, 9-1-1 and "someone is hurting a child" makes the most sense to let authorities sort it out.
posted by k8t at 5:03 PM on March 4, 2012
But yes, 9-1-1 and "someone is hurting a child" makes the most sense to let authorities sort it out.
posted by k8t at 5:03 PM on March 4, 2012
Everybody's right, but don't be too down on yourself. For good people like you (and me!) it's often hard to think what to do in a spur of the moment situation like this when you're confronted with something so far outside of "normal" behavior. You'll be better prepared for the future now, but don't feel guilt about what you could have done today.
posted by BlahLaLa at 5:04 PM on March 4, 2012
posted by BlahLaLa at 5:04 PM on March 4, 2012
I have to second what BlahLaLa said - I actually had this experience about 3 years ago when I was out and about with my son.
He was 5 at the time and we saw a woman hitting (not spanking, full on smacking around the head and shoulders) her child, and I was literally too stunned to move.
However, my son wasn't, and he actually yelled at her - he yelled "What is she doing?! Why is she hitting him?! We don't hit our friends! Stop! Stop!"
She stopped immediately and hustled into her car. At the time I didn't think to capture her license plate or anything. I like to think that if I encountered this again, I would do more.
posted by dotgirl at 5:16 PM on March 4, 2012 [25 favorites]
He was 5 at the time and we saw a woman hitting (not spanking, full on smacking around the head and shoulders) her child, and I was literally too stunned to move.
However, my son wasn't, and he actually yelled at her - he yelled "What is she doing?! Why is she hitting him?! We don't hit our friends! Stop! Stop!"
She stopped immediately and hustled into her car. At the time I didn't think to capture her license plate or anything. I like to think that if I encountered this again, I would do more.
posted by dotgirl at 5:16 PM on March 4, 2012 [25 favorites]
Best answer: I work on the other end of these incidents (as part of a team for my residency that investigates child abuse and includes CPS, SVU, social work/mental health, and healthcare--I do forensic medical exams). Officially, everyone is absolutely right, 911. From there, even if an arrest is not made, the police can initiate a safety plan for the family and get the investigative ball rolling. The important thing to remember is that you don't have to speculate on was it abuse or a crime or hitting or disciplining or whatever; professionals are trained to sort out the report and objectively advocate for the child. Yes, always, 911.
I see that you are in MI. In MI, as in the majority of states, abuse, versus corporal punishment, is any kind of hitting on any part of the body with the intent to cause pain or with enough force to leave any kind of mark (including redness). Corporal punishment draws its admittedly thin and confusing line at hitting a child with the intent to correct behavior without leaving a physical mark or using an object to hit with (some states state where the child can and cannot be hit on the body for CP). These sort of patently ridiculous and impossible to legislate distinctions are why many other countries and most schools are making corporal punishment illegal and also why witnesses to abuse hesitate to report.
You've already done the right thing by considering and thinking carefully about what you saw, by asking questions, and opening up a dialogue. It's confusing. We see these things and have to clarify what we're seeing because our society has made so much of it unclear to us and because we live in a society that sees children as belonging to other people instead of people who have rights. The American Academy of Pediatrics does not advocate corporal punishment in any setting for any reason for any child because this is the only policy that can provide any kind of universal protection of children against abuse.
posted by rumposinc at 5:38 PM on March 4, 2012 [38 favorites]
I see that you are in MI. In MI, as in the majority of states, abuse, versus corporal punishment, is any kind of hitting on any part of the body with the intent to cause pain or with enough force to leave any kind of mark (including redness). Corporal punishment draws its admittedly thin and confusing line at hitting a child with the intent to correct behavior without leaving a physical mark or using an object to hit with (some states state where the child can and cannot be hit on the body for CP). These sort of patently ridiculous and impossible to legislate distinctions are why many other countries and most schools are making corporal punishment illegal and also why witnesses to abuse hesitate to report.
You've already done the right thing by considering and thinking carefully about what you saw, by asking questions, and opening up a dialogue. It's confusing. We see these things and have to clarify what we're seeing because our society has made so much of it unclear to us and because we live in a society that sees children as belonging to other people instead of people who have rights. The American Academy of Pediatrics does not advocate corporal punishment in any setting for any reason for any child because this is the only policy that can provide any kind of universal protection of children against abuse.
posted by rumposinc at 5:38 PM on March 4, 2012 [38 favorites]
What sort of hitting? Heaps of people hit/smack kids. Some think it's a normal part of parenting.
Was it smacking or assault?
posted by mattoxic at 6:03 PM on March 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
Was it smacking or assault?
posted by mattoxic at 6:03 PM on March 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
The only time this happened in my presence, I ended up giving the mother and child a ride to a nail salon.
I was at the DMV, and an obviously tired toddler was being whiny, and the mother was frustrated, and hitting him. I was sad, but didn't do anything. Later, as I was leaving, I saw them walking (no stroller) in the 90F+ heat, down the long block to the bus-stop, the mom still swating at the kid and dragging him by the arm. I asked if I could give them a ride. (I decided no carseat didn't matter to me.) They accepted, and I drove them about 10 miles to the nail salon they were headed to.
The kid slept the whole way in the AC, and the mother got to relax too. I feel pretty good about that.
posted by pH Indicating Socks at 6:17 PM on March 4, 2012 [11 favorites]
I was at the DMV, and an obviously tired toddler was being whiny, and the mother was frustrated, and hitting him. I was sad, but didn't do anything. Later, as I was leaving, I saw them walking (no stroller) in the 90F+ heat, down the long block to the bus-stop, the mom still swating at the kid and dragging him by the arm. I asked if I could give them a ride. (I decided no carseat didn't matter to me.) They accepted, and I drove them about 10 miles to the nail salon they were headed to.
The kid slept the whole way in the AC, and the mother got to relax too. I feel pretty good about that.
posted by pH Indicating Socks at 6:17 PM on March 4, 2012 [11 favorites]
Response by poster: People may be done responding, but it was definitely not restrained, single-spanking discipline. It was temper-driven and intended to cause pain. The kid was crying. The mom screamed "Are you still crying?" and grabbed the kid's ear and twisted. The kid screamed in pain.
This was in a mini-mall parking lot. Couldn't tell if they had a car or were coming from a bus.
posted by foxy_hedgehog at 6:59 PM on March 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
This was in a mini-mall parking lot. Couldn't tell if they had a car or were coming from a bus.
posted by foxy_hedgehog at 6:59 PM on March 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
Best answer: As I cop I second what rumposinc said above. Call 9-1-1.
Yes, huge portion of 9-1-1 calls are pocket dials, a waste of time or should have gone to the non-emergency line. Those can be written off easily enough.
A surprisingly high number of non-emergency calls *should have been 9-1-1 calls*. These are the ones we all think about later (cops and civilians both).
We'd much rather you call 9-1-1 and it turn out to be a waste of time they have you not call meaning we only find out much later that something truly bad happened and we all missed it.
Sort of irrelevant example: I know of a women who had anemia and bleed to death, sitting in a chair right beside a phone. She called her son and left a voice mail message asking for help, but for some reason never called 9-1-1 (or anyone else). No reason to suspect suicide, best guess was that due to language issues she didn't think 9-1-1 could/would help.
posted by BlueSock at 8:01 PM on March 4, 2012 [4 favorites]
Yes, huge portion of 9-1-1 calls are pocket dials, a waste of time or should have gone to the non-emergency line. Those can be written off easily enough.
A surprisingly high number of non-emergency calls *should have been 9-1-1 calls*. These are the ones we all think about later (cops and civilians both).
We'd much rather you call 9-1-1 and it turn out to be a waste of time they have you not call meaning we only find out much later that something truly bad happened and we all missed it.
Sort of irrelevant example: I know of a women who had anemia and bleed to death, sitting in a chair right beside a phone. She called her son and left a voice mail message asking for help, but for some reason never called 9-1-1 (or anyone else). No reason to suspect suicide, best guess was that due to language issues she didn't think 9-1-1 could/would help.
posted by BlueSock at 8:01 PM on March 4, 2012 [4 favorites]
* Also, from the point of view of the child, someone needs to acknowledge that this is wrong. Believe me, I've been there. When it happened in public and nobody said anything, I believed I deserved the pain and the humiliation. Nobody EVER said anything in my case and I always wondered if they thought I needed the beatings.
If you call 911, that's awesome. But if you can, even from afar, specially if there are "witnesses" you can say "that's child abuse, lady!" or whatever, I bet you the child will start to see things differently!
posted by Tarumba at 10:45 PM on March 4, 2012 [6 favorites]
If you call 911, that's awesome. But if you can, even from afar, specially if there are "witnesses" you can say "that's child abuse, lady!" or whatever, I bet you the child will start to see things differently!
posted by Tarumba at 10:45 PM on March 4, 2012 [6 favorites]
IANA police officer, but it might not be a bad idea to call the police now, even after the fact, with a physical description of the woman and the child. If they don't have a file on her already, they could perhaps start one and/or log the case.
posted by delight at 11:00 PM on March 4, 2012
posted by delight at 11:00 PM on March 4, 2012
What sort of hitting?
IT DOES NOT MATTER. Bystanders are not qualified to make judgment calls. Law enforcement is.
posted by Saucy Intruder at 6:19 AM on March 5, 2012 [4 favorites]
IT DOES NOT MATTER. Bystanders are not qualified to make judgment calls. Law enforcement is.
posted by Saucy Intruder at 6:19 AM on March 5, 2012 [4 favorites]
Well, 'smacking' isn't illegal in the same way assault is, at least where I live. (I experienced physical abuse growing up from one parent, the other was someone who thought smacking was OK in specific circumstances, and there is definitely a difference. The abusive behaviour never ever happened in public.) Whether one thinks it's morally wrong is a different issue. However, what the OP describes needed someone to step in.
posted by mippy at 7:22 AM on March 5, 2012
posted by mippy at 7:22 AM on March 5, 2012
My mom used to work for the 9-1-1 center here so she was really clear on when and when not to call. This case would be cut and dry in favor of calling.
Examples of 9-1-1 calls I've made - car accident where the other person was belligerent (but not violent); possible person or animal rustling around in the basement (turned out to be a squirrel); homeless guy lying on the sidewalk, visible from my apartment; light pole fell down and blocked a lane of the freeway; my car died in the right lane of the freeway and could not be pulled over.
FYI, never refer to 9-1-1 as nine-eleven. Some people seriously look for the 11 key on the phone.
This reminded me to put the non-emergency number in my cell contacts.
posted by desjardins at 11:23 AM on March 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
Examples of 9-1-1 calls I've made - car accident where the other person was belligerent (but not violent); possible person or animal rustling around in the basement (turned out to be a squirrel); homeless guy lying on the sidewalk, visible from my apartment; light pole fell down and blocked a lane of the freeway; my car died in the right lane of the freeway and could not be pulled over.
FYI, never refer to 9-1-1 as nine-eleven. Some people seriously look for the 11 key on the phone.
This reminded me to put the non-emergency number in my cell contacts.
posted by desjardins at 11:23 AM on March 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
I called the non-emergency police number to report an unrestrained toddler being driven in a car. (I was behind them at a red light, and when the light turned and the driver accelerated suddenly, the child was thrown from the front of the car where he was standing into the back seat, head-first.) They told me to call 9-1-1. When I did, the dispatcher asked for the make/model, the street, and the direction the car was going, and said they'd send a unit. It turns out that 9-1-1 is meant to be used for a much broader set of incidents than I'd realized.
posted by palliser at 12:12 PM on March 5, 2012
posted by palliser at 12:12 PM on March 5, 2012
Another option is to go over and say "It looks like you're having a really bad day. Can I help?" You can still call 911, but shining light on the behavior helps the person stop, and lets the child know that people pay attention.
My child had tantrums, really impressive ones. People glared as I left a full grocery cart in the store, and took my screaming child to the car. The rare occasions of kindness were a big help, to me and my child.
posted by theora55 at 12:16 PM on March 5, 2012 [2 favorites]
My child had tantrums, really impressive ones. People glared as I left a full grocery cart in the store, and took my screaming child to the car. The rare occasions of kindness were a big help, to me and my child.
posted by theora55 at 12:16 PM on March 5, 2012 [2 favorites]
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