Am I liable if someone slips on my snow clearing job?
February 29, 2012 8:04 PM Subscribe
If I clear snow badly, can I be liable for someone else's injury?
I live in a ground-floor flat in Montreal. The front doors to flats in this area are individual, and my door opens on a front porch, from which there are 4 steps to a short front walk. Another door also opens on this porch from my next door neighbour's flat.
I rent and so does she. The landlady lives elsewhere. Snow clearance is not included in our leases; with my previous neighbour I used to share snow shovelling duties, but this young woman has refused to clear snow for two winters now, and has told me flat out she doesn't own a shovel, nor does she have any salt for when the steps become icy, which they occasionally do.
If we don't clear the steps the Canada Post letter carrier can refuse to deliver – they have a standard form they'll stick on your mailbox, to warn you – and neglected snow can freeze up and become a mess. So I'm stuck with clearing the snow if I want my mail, and want to be able to have food delivered or for myself or anyone else to use the steps safely.
But it occurred to me that if this continues, with my neighbour fully expecting me to cope with the steps, and I don't do it, or do it badly, and she falls and hurts herself, does she have a legal case against me? She is not disabled, by the way – she just can't be bothered.
One reason I ask is that I have a standard tenants' insurance package for fire and theft but that also includes some arcane stuff about liability for other people's injuries. I never understood how as a tenant I could be liable for such things, but if someone has come to expect that I will do the steps and, expecting this, gets injured, am I at risk?
Canadian and Quebec law may have its particularities, but I'd be interested to hear any views coming from general common law on this. And I know YANML.
I live in a ground-floor flat in Montreal. The front doors to flats in this area are individual, and my door opens on a front porch, from which there are 4 steps to a short front walk. Another door also opens on this porch from my next door neighbour's flat.
I rent and so does she. The landlady lives elsewhere. Snow clearance is not included in our leases; with my previous neighbour I used to share snow shovelling duties, but this young woman has refused to clear snow for two winters now, and has told me flat out she doesn't own a shovel, nor does she have any salt for when the steps become icy, which they occasionally do.
If we don't clear the steps the Canada Post letter carrier can refuse to deliver – they have a standard form they'll stick on your mailbox, to warn you – and neglected snow can freeze up and become a mess. So I'm stuck with clearing the snow if I want my mail, and want to be able to have food delivered or for myself or anyone else to use the steps safely.
But it occurred to me that if this continues, with my neighbour fully expecting me to cope with the steps, and I don't do it, or do it badly, and she falls and hurts herself, does she have a legal case against me? She is not disabled, by the way – she just can't be bothered.
One reason I ask is that I have a standard tenants' insurance package for fire and theft but that also includes some arcane stuff about liability for other people's injuries. I never understood how as a tenant I could be liable for such things, but if someone has come to expect that I will do the steps and, expecting this, gets injured, am I at risk?
Canadian and Quebec law may have its particularities, but I'd be interested to hear any views coming from general common law on this. And I know YANML.
I have a friend who is a postal worker in Montreal - it's harsh. Clean your steps, please. It seems to me that your dispute with your neighbour is a separate issue, the postal worker has nothing to do with it. Also, you might be the first one to get hurt. Maybe you could sue your neighbour it that happens (but I sort of doubt it even tho IANAL), but it seems more practical just to clean the four steps and negotiate separately with the neighbour than waiting to see an accident happening.
BTW, Quebec is not common law.
posted by TheGoodBlood at 9:19 PM on February 29, 2012
BTW, Quebec is not common law.
posted by TheGoodBlood at 9:19 PM on February 29, 2012
Are you asking because you are curious about a funny hypothetical that came out of a real-life situation, or is this a particularly roundabout way to ask "How do I get my neighbor to stop taking advantage of me?"
If the former: I suspect your landlady would bear the brunt of liability. IANAL.
If the latter: Hire a local teenager to shovel your walk and split the cost with your neighbor.
posted by kagredon at 9:35 PM on February 29, 2012
If the former: I suspect your landlady would bear the brunt of liability. IANAL.
If the latter: Hire a local teenager to shovel your walk and split the cost with your neighbor.
posted by kagredon at 9:35 PM on February 29, 2012
Response by poster: I don't mean to thread-sit, but kagredon has asked me a question, so:
No, this is not a roundabout way to ask how to get my neighbour to stop taking advantage. I can't make her stop because I want the steps to be safe – that's my choice, so she gets a free ride and I don't expect that to change. But I was busy this week and did a cursory job on the steps, then almost slipped and fell earlier today, which brought to mind that it might not be me, next time.
Also, I know it's civil law here, but general legal principles like liability are not that different.
posted by zadcat at 9:42 PM on February 29, 2012
No, this is not a roundabout way to ask how to get my neighbour to stop taking advantage. I can't make her stop because I want the steps to be safe – that's my choice, so she gets a free ride and I don't expect that to change. But I was busy this week and did a cursory job on the steps, then almost slipped and fell earlier today, which brought to mind that it might not be me, next time.
Also, I know it's civil law here, but general legal principles like liability are not that different.
posted by zadcat at 9:42 PM on February 29, 2012
Where I live (not Canada) snow removal is totally the responsibility of the landlord.
posted by Obscure Reference at 5:21 AM on March 1, 2012
posted by Obscure Reference at 5:21 AM on March 1, 2012
From my basic understanding, the liability would be shared in some percentage between you, your neighbour, and your landlord. But yes, you're liable if someone slips and falls on your stairs, even when it's an accident.
posted by jeather at 6:11 AM on March 1, 2012
posted by jeather at 6:11 AM on March 1, 2012
Best answer: Approaching this from a purely theoretical and discursive standpoint first, as most of this won't apply at all in your jurisdiction, but might help you get an idea of the issues if you're interested in such things. The current starting position at English common law is that an ineffective intervention only renders the defendant liable if it places the claimant in a worse position than they would have been, had D taken no action. The key case is the 1940 East Suffolk Rivers Catchment Board v Kent. The 1995 decision in Barrett v Ministry of Defence sits a little uneasily with that, as it does appear to indicate that a duty to care for a person's well-being can be assumed and lead to liability, even if they are left no worse off. However, the case is complicated by the fact that it dealt with the more specific duty of a commanding officer to the men in his charge.
It is therefore certainly possible for common law to infer a duty from such types of conduct, but as to whether that would have any bearing on what will happen in your jurisdiction, I can't say. You'd have to look at the Civil Code, I think.
Practically speaking, on the other hand, it seems the most sensible thing to do would be to just have a chat with your neighbour and explain what happened today, that you understand she isn't going to clear the snow, but that she should always be extremely careful after you've done it, because you can't guarantee you'll do a perfect job in every case. After all, you are only doing it for your convenience, not because you have some special skill at doing it. You might also raise the idea of jointly paying someone to do the job.
However, I'd also like to point out that occupier's liability is governed by statute in lots of jurisdictions (including Quebec, by the look of it). Assuming that you each only have a licence to pass over the common access, and it's not actually under your lease, it is definitely worth looking into whether it is actually the responsibility of your ladylady to have it cleared.
posted by howfar at 6:23 AM on March 1, 2012 [1 favorite]
It is therefore certainly possible for common law to infer a duty from such types of conduct, but as to whether that would have any bearing on what will happen in your jurisdiction, I can't say. You'd have to look at the Civil Code, I think.
Practically speaking, on the other hand, it seems the most sensible thing to do would be to just have a chat with your neighbour and explain what happened today, that you understand she isn't going to clear the snow, but that she should always be extremely careful after you've done it, because you can't guarantee you'll do a perfect job in every case. After all, you are only doing it for your convenience, not because you have some special skill at doing it. You might also raise the idea of jointly paying someone to do the job.
However, I'd also like to point out that occupier's liability is governed by statute in lots of jurisdictions (including Quebec, by the look of it). Assuming that you each only have a licence to pass over the common access, and it's not actually under your lease, it is definitely worth looking into whether it is actually the responsibility of your ladylady to have it cleared.
posted by howfar at 6:23 AM on March 1, 2012 [1 favorite]
Since it seems that you, your landlord, and your neighbor might share the liability if someone falls and injures themselves, I wonder if your landlord would be open to charging your neighbor for the snow clearing services that you're providing. Maybe you could even get a small discount on your rent.
posted by VTX at 6:32 AM on March 1, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by VTX at 6:32 AM on March 1, 2012 [1 favorite]
Your landlord may be responsible for snow removal in common areas no matter what it says in the lease. You could check with a tenant's rights organization in your area or whatever gov agency regulates landlord tenant stuff in your area.
posted by Melsky at 7:46 AM on March 1, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by Melsky at 7:46 AM on March 1, 2012 [1 favorite]
Yes, what Melsky is saying is what I intended my final paragraph to convey, but I'm not sure if I did so very clearly!
posted by howfar at 10:07 AM on March 1, 2012
posted by howfar at 10:07 AM on March 1, 2012
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posted by IndigoRain at 9:12 PM on February 29, 2012