violent video games developer -> bible software developer?

February 22, 2012 6:40 AM

My partner and I are currently living on separate sides of the Vancouver/Washington state border - I would very much like to move to be with her, but the job prospects for my specialties are low. One option is to work for a local company which produces bible software. From a technical standpoint, their products are excellent, the jobs pay well , have excellent medical and retirement benefits and they regularly hire from outside the faith. The catch? I am a staunch atheist, and bordering on actively anti-religious.

Currently, it's not like I am being extremely principled in my employment - I work for a video games company, and our products sometimes nudge up against my personal standards, being more (deliberately) violent, (accidentally ) misogynist, and (accidentally, slightly) racist than I would ideally like.

However, there is a good chance I would learn some interesting technologies at the bible software company (iOS, Android), and the excellent benefits would be great for me and my nascent family, as my partner is self employed, and is starting up her own business. Complicating this is our wish to buy a house in the area, and have children within 3 years.

Assuming that I couldn't get any other employment in the area other than retail work, or starting my own contract programming business, it really makes the most sense if I am honest.

However - for a long time I have been dissatisfied with working on products which don't align with my own values, and this, while arguably better for the world than graphically violent entertainment, still seems like a solid step away from the direction I'd like to be going in.

What direction would I like to be going in? Working on Family friendly, exploratory toy-games for toddlers->tweens would be fantastic, allowing me to keep using my programming skills for good, rather than various shades of things I am, at best, ambivalent about the moral consequences of.

I haven't really investigated what stripe of Christianity the company founders subscribe to, but that is something I'll do. Finding out that the company founders/company donated to anti-gay or pro-choice causes, or was anti-gay in its hiring policies, would be a deal breaker.

posted by anonymous to Work & Money (32 answers total)

Are they asking for you to convert - or just respect their beliefs?
If you can not respect their beliefs, then you have no business applying for the job.
posted by Flood at 6:55 AM on February 22, 2012 [3 favorites]

For religious reasons I've turned down jobs which I considered would involve actively promoting violence. I wouldn't necessarily turn down jobs that promoted atheism, though I can see the potential for getting fed up with them pretty quickly. I wouldn't work for a company that promoted Satanism or sold a lot of occult products.

Let's boil it down to the essentials: be with your partner and make a living selling bibles, or stay apart and make a living selling, among other things, violent video games. Are you sure this choice is really about principles? If it is, stay where you are.
posted by tel3path at 6:55 AM on February 22, 2012 [1 favorite]

I took a look at their website (it's not too hard to figure out what the company is) and there are no red flags. Rather than coming from an Evangelical tradition (although Evangelicalism would almost certainly motivate whoever runs the company), the company has more of an Ecumenical flavour - it's more about interfaith cooperation... while fulfilling a market need.

So it looks like a nice place to work.

I once worked for a company founded, run and staffed by American Mormons at a time when I considered myself to be an atheist. There weren't any issues, although obviously the people that shared a faith had closer relationships.

The only 2 red flags I can think of would be 1) if you are so anti-religion that you need to express your opinions to others, or if you are unable to gently navigate away from faith-based conversations in the workplace 2) you don't have a backup plan in case things don't work out at this company 6 months or 3 years down the road.

Flag 2 is the easiest to counter: stay in touch with your contacts in Vancouver (this means keeping in contact at least 4 times a year) and making new contacts in Seattle, which is a much bigger and active tech sector than is Vancouver.

Sounds like a great opportunity, and I've always wanted to live in the community you are thinking of relocating to.
posted by KokuRyu at 6:59 AM on February 22, 2012 [1 favorite]

Finding out that the company founders/company donated to anti-gay or pro-choice causes, or was anti-gay in its hiring policies, would be a deal breaker.

I'm with you there--that's a line I wouldn't (knowingly) cross.

But a couple of points to consider: First, a lot of us out there are doing things we don't believe in. As a lawyer, I do a lot of work for financiers/bankers/PE guys. I don't believe in it, and I don't like the work they do. I sleep OK at night, but I'd rather be doing something else for more "deserving" people. But those people don't happen to need the specialized skills I have. I'll change what I do when I can, but, hey, it's a living.

Second, what if you were working at your dream job working on family friendly games, and happened to discover that the CEO was anti-gay? Would you quit? Not saying you wouldn't (or that I wouldn't) but sometimes these things get even messier.

I'm on the athiest/anti-religious spectrum, too, but I think I would consider taking a job, provided that I wasn't being proselytized every day.
posted by Admiral Haddock at 6:59 AM on February 22, 2012 [2 favorites]

anonymous - Give yourself a break, OK. Sometimes you take a job because the money and circumstances make sense - and one is not being presented with other choices. Take the job, do what they pay you to do - write code - and don't worry about it.

As Woody Allen famously said "These are my principles. And if you don't like these, I have others."
posted by three blind mice at 7:01 AM on February 22, 2012 [5 favorites]

I'm not entirely sure what the question is?

The implied question seems to be which job should you pursue (per the title)? And I think you have laid out most of the arguments and the path to follow. Do a little research on the bible company, there are actually quite a few liberal Christian outfits, as you would with any company. A company need not be religious in order to be complete assholes, and I'd wager, just like any other company they will want to attract as wide a market share as possible which means avoiding controversial issues.

I understand your inclinations but I would caution against being 'actively anti-religious', that way leads down the same path as (I suspect) many of those you object to have gone. It's certainly fine to have, hold and live your principles but do not let them unnecessarily blind (or bind) you against working with and enjoying the company of many of those you'd actually agree with 90% of the time.

You know what to do it sounds like. Do the research, be open eyed. But be honest too
posted by edgeways at 7:01 AM on February 22, 2012

Very few of us get to put our skills to use exactly as our hearts would like. Plenty of artists work as waitresses. I would love to build websites for progressive political parties and causes; I mostly build websites for plumbing companies.

In no way would I assume a religious software company was a de facto force for evil. I mean, I am going to guess we would not be having this conversation were they a Quaker software company, or a Buddhist one, right? There are plenty of gay and pro-choice congregations, and while they may be in the minority, I would be wary of assuming the stance of this organisation merely on the basis they are Christian denominated. "Progressive" and "Christian" are not mutually exclusive. My lefty activist husband largely credits the social justice roots of his Catholic education for his atheist activism.

(Also, needs must. Previously my household strove actively to not donate to religious charities. This year we gave the proceeds of a tax bonus to SVP because they are literally feeding our neighbours.)

I would apply, hope you get an interview, and go check it out. Try to judge things based on merit and not fear.
posted by DarlingBri at 7:03 AM on February 22, 2012 [5 favorites]

Finding out that the company founders/company donated to anti-gay or pro-choice causes, or was anti-gay in its hiring policies, would be a deal breaker.

If they don't trip these alarms (which they might, I don't know) and if they don't proselytize then I really don't see where the problem is. I guess it would also depend on what the Bible software is, but it's not like study of the book is necessarily a religious pursuit, and I don't think it would bother me if it were for a company I worked for as long as I didn't have to engage with them religiously.

But this may be a question of my own principles - I don't care what other people believe, what I care about is how they treat each other. If this company treats others well, I just don't see the problem, especially if I'd be going there from a company which makes violent, racist, misogynist software.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 7:04 AM on February 22, 2012 [2 favorites]

If this afternoon you were asked to work on a game that was maybe slightly unintentionally anti-gay, in the same way you have to work on stuff that's misogynist and racist, would you comply or would you move to be with your partner?
posted by tel3path at 7:05 AM on February 22, 2012

Seems to me that bible-study software is potentially pretty morally neutral so far as these things go - it has equal utility for a scholar of literature, some jolly nice Episcopalian congregation with a lesbian minister and a social justice orientation, or even an atheist looking for contradictions and inconsistencies as it does for whatever conservative Baptist you're imagining using this to find a Biblical excuse to do something horrible.

I think in addition to what you're saying about understanding the founder's beliefs and what kind of causes the company contributes to, there's a couple of other things to make sure you understand too. First, you refer to your partner - I don't know if that's just you being coy about your identity, but obviously if you're not legally married (or if you're both ladies in a state that doesn't recognize that) you should make sure that their benefits package extends to domestic partners, which a religious company might be less likely to do. Also if the interpretation of the bible this software is pushing is some kind of "the Bible is the inerrant, infallible and literally true word of God, but only the King James Version" type of situation, then that's way more problematic morally.
posted by strangely stunted trees at 7:05 AM on February 22, 2012 [4 favorites]

If we take Churchill's excellent definition of a fanatic, someone whose mind cant be changed and who cannot change the subject, working with fanatics is a pain in the ass. If that is either you or them it might not be a good idea to take the job.

That said, I think it is sad how self-segregating our society has become and hope you do take the job. There are a lot of people who would find significant benefit from more accessible bibles, if you like you can think of producing a product that might actually get Christians to be more biblically literate and thus hopefully less hypocritical.
posted by Blasdelb at 7:07 AM on February 22, 2012 [6 favorites]

Nothing's really a red flag except when you say you're "actively anti-religious." If you were in the camp, as some atheists say they are, that they don't believe but they understand why others do, I'd say you could probably agree to disagree. Most Christians are really not all that actively evangelical. I'd say the odds would be higher than average that SOMEBODY would tend to try to engage you in some kind of study or discussion, but if you wanted to you could likely avoid that person (well, probably).

But if you really dislike religion and think religious people are misguided, you're just going to hate this. You're going to be working on some problem related to why there have to be so many frickin' Psalms that they break the layout that works for all the other books with chapters, and you're just gonna snap. If you ever have to talk to customers, most of whom will be ministers or people who study the Bible, your opinion that they're misguided about the most important philosophical questions there are will inevitably trickle into your opinion about whether they can possibly have any computer skills. It may not be logical, but it's the way we're wired.

I'm a Christian, and I could probably work for some outfit that was mostly made up of atheists, provided the product or problem at hand wasn't directly in the province of selling atheism. But work for a company that sold educational materials promoting atheism? I couldn't sleep at night. I can't see how you'll be in any different situation.
posted by randomkeystrike at 7:10 AM on February 22, 2012

On preview, I feel compelled to mention as a general thing that I agree with Blasdelb - it's a bad thing that religious people of different persuasions, as well as agnostics and atheists, segregate. It certainly doesn't lead to peace and understanding. Religious people who segregate tend to be cultists; non-believers tend to be cranks (actually, you could swap labels and that would work too). My advice for you stands because how you make your living is different than who you hang out with.
posted by randomkeystrike at 7:13 AM on February 22, 2012 [2 favorites]

If you pursued this job, they would Google you. Is there a chance they would find atheist opinions you've expressed and could this be a problem?
posted by zadcat at 7:22 AM on February 22, 2012 [2 favorites]

Your question smacks of a kind of unreflective bigotry, as if you've never actually spent time with religious people and found that they have full lives outside of their faith. Like you, I don't have a religion, and actually have a fairly low opinion of religion in general. However, I worked for six years at a company where some staunch fundamentalists worked, and didn't even know they were so until it came up naturally in conversation. There were nice people with whom I got along, and jerks with whom I didn't, and there was little correlation between their faith and whether or not I enjoyed their company and working with them.

Also, I'm not saying you should work at a company whose product you dislike philosophically. But if you take the job I think you'll find that the product is the product, and the challenges of the job have little to do with the philosophical side of the product--so whether or not it's a good and fulfilling job has little to do with your atheism. And good, fulfilling jobs aren't easy to come by these days, especially ones that fit in nicely with the rest of your life.

Shorter: take the job, open your mind, and quit being so precious with your self that you turn down a great opportunity to see how others live and work. You'll be better for it.
posted by fatbird at 7:30 AM on February 22, 2012 [3 favorites]

If they're nice and thoughtful religious people - and what is the content of the software? - then go for it, assuming they'll hire you. Now, I've met some creepers who produced Christian religious materials - spent about four hours in a first interview for a reception job there. But I've also met some missionaries (!!!) who were really decent people and who preached by example rather than by words. I would have worked for them in an administrative capacity, no question, had they been able to hire me.
posted by Frowner at 7:34 AM on February 22, 2012

I'm going to be the odd one out here - I would recommend that you don't take the job, for purely practical reasons, and keep looking in the sector.

While the company's software may be useful for various groups (and if I've found the right company, that's debatable - but my google-fu is nothing compared to others here), the people who work there will mostly be motivated by their faith. It may be very hard for you to make personal connections there as an outsider, difficult to leave with good references, and hard to get taken seriously in your next job hunt without them.

On top of which, working for a company whose faith you don't share doesn't mean that you won't be tarred with your employer's actions should they take any public actions you disagree with in the future. This is a big year in WA for gay rights as a political issue, and many previously nonpolitical religious people and organizations are going to feel the pressure to "take a stand." If you start a job for an evangelical firm (even a tolerant one) with which you are already uncomfortable, how uncomfortable will you be if, come the Autumn, the majority of your co-workers are campaigning for the anti-gay-marriage initiatives on the November ballot? On a practical level, how will joining a bible-software firm of an evangelical bent in WA in 2012 look on your CV later on, when you show it to tech employers with diverse teams in Seattle or Vancouver? It seems like there are several potential issues here that go beyond what-am-I-doing-with-my-life angst.
posted by Wylla at 7:43 AM on February 22, 2012 [1 favorite]

Just as an anecdote, I am an atheist/radical feminist/queer activist (culturally Catholic) and I worked many years in Catholic Schools. Most people, out of ignorance, when they hear Catholic automatically think misogynists and homophobes with prayer on your knees five times a day. It was actually one of the most enlightened places I have ever worked and the small mindedness came from outsiders with their prejudices.

You seem to be operating under assumptions and would probably getter a fuller picture by having an interview and talking to the people there. If you are looking to network with other like-minded individuals who are interested in family-friendly educational software I think you are more likely to find it at the new company rather than your current position; if they are thinking of expanding beyond bibles it looks like you could both be good for each other. If this is the company I am thinking of (winner of several awards and used in Libraries) then I think it actually does align with your values.
posted by saucysault at 7:46 AM on February 22, 2012 [7 favorites]

I'd be more concerned about something you haven't identified as an issue. As a software developer I wouldn't want to be developing a product for a user base I felt disdain or contempt towards. It's not good for them and it's not good for me.

If you're borderline hostile to religion are you going to have a hard time putting yourself in their headspace? Will that be an issue for you? I personally sometimes struggle with features or development directions based on what I think are asinine choices for a user. Is it going to be an issue for you if someone's motivation for using your product AT ALL puts you off?
posted by phearlez at 7:55 AM on February 22, 2012 [1 favorite]

I think I know what company you're talking about. As far as I know, these guys are more about reference than interpretation. As an atheist myself, I'd probably take the job.
posted by oceanjesse at 7:55 AM on February 22, 2012

You sound like you don't want to take the job, and you'd be unhappy there, and it sounds like you're not the sort of person who can emotionally detach yourself from your work (I think that's a good thing, btw!). There's no shame in being who you are, in this case.
posted by deanc at 8:27 AM on February 22, 2012

If you are "actively anti-religious" in the sense that you can't hold yourself back from espousing atheism or disagreeing with someone who expresses religious views, don't do this.

Otherwise, go interview. See what kind of vibe you get. You said they regularly hire from outside the faith, so that's a good indication that they don't demand conformity.
posted by chickenmagazine at 8:42 AM on February 22, 2012

I know several people (both Christian and non-Christian) who work for this company. My understanding is that there is nothing overtly "religious" about the programming related jobs there, its like any other company. I'd recommend at least interviewing there and seeing for yourself if it could be a place you could work.
posted by bajema at 9:11 AM on February 22, 2012 [1 favorite]

You have to go along to get along. I'm a Socialist working in big finance. I'm happy.
posted by the foreground at 10:43 AM on February 22, 2012

Take the job for a year and re-evaluate. Most of the software jobs in Vancouver relate to violent games, military systems or financial systems (with clients such as Halliburton). So you may have to compromise your values no matter what and religious software might be the least of all evils.
posted by Chaussette and the Pussy Cats at 10:52 AM on February 22, 2012

Mod note: This is a followup from the asker.

Thanks everyone for the great answers, they've given me some food for thought. I am definitely going to try and go for an interview. The general impression I get is that they are definitely at the end of the christian spectrum that overlaps pretty well with my values, and the advice to be open minded and to not assume things about people / companies is appreciated.

posted by cortex (staff) at 11:05 AM on February 22, 2012 [1 favorite]

It is not "bigotry" to decide that you'd rather not support religion, any more than it is "bigotry" for tel3path to choose not to support occultism above. If this "seems like a solid step away from the direction you'd like to be going in" -- and I'd tend to agree that Bible software is probably a poor fit if you are strongly anti-religious and pro-gay -- then you need to pass on the job, re-evaluate your direction, or hold your nose.

In my experience the latter rarely makes for a good work environment, for you or your co-workers. Sure, you could have a great experience... but you could also open your mouth (or be Googled) at the wrong time and find yourself ostracised or fired without cause. Violent video games may not be what you want to work on, but you are extremely unlikely to encounter problems at your current job because you don't like violence -- if I were you I'd think carefully about the difference between that situation and being known as an anti-religious and pro-gay person at a Bible software company. Please keep in mind that you may not be able to keep that quiet even if you try to get along. It might not be a problem if the truth comes out, but you can't be sure of that, not even if you have a great relationship with your co-workers (what happens if they hire someone whose vocal evangelism changes the situation -- might the company be more likely to side with you, or them? These are the kinds of questions I'd be asking myself.)

Thanks everyone for the great answers, they've given me some food for thought. I am definitely going to try and go for an interview.

If I were you I would ask about these issues at the interview, in a polite and professional way: "What is the company's policy regarding homosexuality? How about atheism?" It seems likely that the interviewer has already heard similar questions, and his or her reaction will probably tell you what you need to know.

If you'd be too worried about bringing up these issues at an interview, IMHO that also tells you what you need to know. How comfortable will you be at this place if you can't even ask about things that matter to you?
posted by vorfeed at 11:40 AM on February 22, 2012 [1 favorite]

"What is the company's policy regarding homosexuality? How about atheism?"
The company can't even comment on that. Both are protected under the Canadian Charter and various other laws.
posted by Chaussette and the Pussy Cats at 9:55 PM on February 22, 2012

The company can't even comment on that. Both are protected under the Canadian Charter and various other laws.

Then they can tell the OP "sorry, we can't answer that because both are protected under the Canadian Charter". Seems like that is an answer in and of itself...
posted by vorfeed at 12:13 AM on February 23, 2012

I don't think they're even allowed to respond without landing in legal hot water.
posted by Chaussette and the Pussy Cats at 12:25 PM on February 24, 2012

Both are protected under the Canadian Charter and various other laws.

For any other job, the OP wouldn't consider asking this question because it's covered by law in Canada. Asking this company this question is basically a "gotcha" question and in addition to being a dick move, likely to cost him the job offer.
posted by DarlingBri at 6:52 PM on February 24, 2012

For any other job, the OP wouldn't consider asking this question because it's covered by law in Canada. Asking this company this question is basically a "gotcha" question and in addition to being a dick move, likely to cost him the job offer.

Yes, I agree. "Do you have a problem with who I am" is generally not a question one feels one has to ask at interviews, which was part of my point.

Like I said earlier: How comfortable will you be at this place if you can't even ask about things that matter to you?
posted by vorfeed at 9:16 PM on February 24, 2012