How to cope with divorcing
October 26, 2011 8:13 AM Subscribe
A friend is getting divorced. He has been married about 8 years and has 3 kids under 6, one who is just months old. He and his wife are amicably dealing with this so far, though this was just determined yesterday. What advice do you have for him?
Especially helpful would be:
1. good books about divorce and its aftereffects
2. a good book for a first grader about divorce
3. what he can expect to happen emotionally to him, his wife, and his kids
4. anything you think is relevant
Especially helpful would be:
1. good books about divorce and its aftereffects
2. a good book for a first grader about divorce
3. what he can expect to happen emotionally to him, his wife, and his kids
4. anything you think is relevant
Came in to say what OmieWise said, with a corollary:
This will hurt. You can go through the pain now, or you can go through the pain later, but in 99.9 percent of divorces with kids involved, there will be massive, unbelievable, "How could I have ever loved that person" kind of grief. Better to make that agony an up-front argument about expectations and practices now, rather than years from now when both sides can dredge up all the failures to live up to those expectations and practices in the years since the divorce.
posted by Etrigan at 8:25 AM on October 26, 2011
This will hurt. You can go through the pain now, or you can go through the pain later, but in 99.9 percent of divorces with kids involved, there will be massive, unbelievable, "How could I have ever loved that person" kind of grief. Better to make that agony an up-front argument about expectations and practices now, rather than years from now when both sides can dredge up all the failures to live up to those expectations and practices in the years since the divorce.
posted by Etrigan at 8:25 AM on October 26, 2011
When the flames go up is a good blog written by a previously married couple about the pains and strains of trying to co-parent well. I think it would be helpful.
posted by dpx.mfx at 8:28 AM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by dpx.mfx at 8:28 AM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]
Lawyers. For everyone. It's possible for the same lawyer to serve both sides in many states, which actually works better than it sounds like it would a lot of the time, but absolutely make sure that both sides are represented somehow.
There are two things which make divorces acrimonious: kids, and money. In the absence of either of those things, there's really not all that much to fight about if the parties have decided that they definitely want to divorce. Since we've definitely got one of those here, and the fact that they've been married eight years suggests that both are probably in play, having a lawyer involved to make sure that one party doesn't get shafted--even inadvertently!--is going to be important. A lot of times couples who get divorced without an attorney will come up with a settlement which is pretty unfair if not downright impractical, sometimes without even knowing it, but if both parties are on board, it's unlikely that a judge will refuse to sign off on it.
Think about it this way: divorce is something most people only do once, maybe twice, if they do it at all. But divorce attorneys handle a few dozen of these things a month* and have the added advantage of not really having anything at stake. So if there's only one thing he does here, make sure that one thing is retaining counsel.
*Which is depressing as all hell and a big reason that a lot of lawyers just won't do family law.
posted by valkyryn at 8:47 AM on October 26, 2011
There are two things which make divorces acrimonious: kids, and money. In the absence of either of those things, there's really not all that much to fight about if the parties have decided that they definitely want to divorce. Since we've definitely got one of those here, and the fact that they've been married eight years suggests that both are probably in play, having a lawyer involved to make sure that one party doesn't get shafted--even inadvertently!--is going to be important. A lot of times couples who get divorced without an attorney will come up with a settlement which is pretty unfair if not downright impractical, sometimes without even knowing it, but if both parties are on board, it's unlikely that a judge will refuse to sign off on it.
Think about it this way: divorce is something most people only do once, maybe twice, if they do it at all. But divorce attorneys handle a few dozen of these things a month* and have the added advantage of not really having anything at stake. So if there's only one thing he does here, make sure that one thing is retaining counsel.
*Which is depressing as all hell and a big reason that a lot of lawyers just won't do family law.
posted by valkyryn at 8:47 AM on October 26, 2011
Get a lawyer and a therapist.
I couldn't bring myself to read any books about divorce because if I opened them it would mean it was really happening. I suggest instead that he pinpoint any specific issues with a therapist and get books generalized to whatever emotional stuff he's dealing with.
My mom gave us Daddy Doesn't Live Here Anymore. Honestly, I don't think he should give the kids any books. To my recollection, the book just upset me and increased my anxiety because my parents' divorce and my experience did not match up with how the book described it. The kids are already going through a lot of upheaval and telling them that there is a "script" will only make it worse when things don't happen like the book says.
So it's the same for the kids -- specific books on specific issues highlighted with their therapist. And to be open about the reality of the divorce while being careful to never, never say anything negative about mom to the kids.
posted by motsque at 8:49 AM on October 26, 2011 [2 favorites]
I couldn't bring myself to read any books about divorce because if I opened them it would mean it was really happening. I suggest instead that he pinpoint any specific issues with a therapist and get books generalized to whatever emotional stuff he's dealing with.
My mom gave us Daddy Doesn't Live Here Anymore. Honestly, I don't think he should give the kids any books. To my recollection, the book just upset me and increased my anxiety because my parents' divorce and my experience did not match up with how the book described it. The kids are already going through a lot of upheaval and telling them that there is a "script" will only make it worse when things don't happen like the book says.
So it's the same for the kids -- specific books on specific issues highlighted with their therapist. And to be open about the reality of the divorce while being careful to never, never say anything negative about mom to the kids.
posted by motsque at 8:49 AM on October 26, 2011 [2 favorites]
I wanted to say what motsque did, especially that the kids (okay probably not the infant), should be seeing a professional. It's not because they are bound to be messed up by the divorce, but that they are bound to have questions and feelings, and they will need someone outside the situation to help guide them through those. It's like valkyryn said about divorce attorneys doing this all the time.
Considering how most parenting is made up on the fly, and how busy both parents will be with just the logistics of the divorce, to say nothing of the emotional load they'll both be under, having someone like a therapist they can count on to talk to is going to be essential. Even the routine of having a weekly or monthly appointment or whatever. If you're a parent, just think about how much your parenting stats drop if you're merely tired, or sick, or trying to make dinner or clean the house. Maybe you worry like I do that in these situations you over-rely on plonking them in front of the TV. Now consider how you'll be in the midst of a draining legal process.
posted by Straw Cab at 9:21 AM on October 26, 2011
Considering how most parenting is made up on the fly, and how busy both parents will be with just the logistics of the divorce, to say nothing of the emotional load they'll both be under, having someone like a therapist they can count on to talk to is going to be essential. Even the routine of having a weekly or monthly appointment or whatever. If you're a parent, just think about how much your parenting stats drop if you're merely tired, or sick, or trying to make dinner or clean the house. Maybe you worry like I do that in these situations you over-rely on plonking them in front of the TV. Now consider how you'll be in the midst of a draining legal process.
posted by Straw Cab at 9:21 AM on October 26, 2011
Consider nesting instead of traditional custody/visitation: the kids stay in the family home and the parents are the ones who rotate in and out from comfortable family home to rented, sparsely furnished 1br apartment where they don't know anyone.
posted by headnsouth at 9:29 AM on October 26, 2011 [7 favorites]
posted by headnsouth at 9:29 AM on October 26, 2011 [7 favorites]
The parents should make sure to never, ever say anything disparaging about each other anywhere where it'll get back to the kids --- and more: if mom's family starts saying bad things about dad or vice versa, the parents should tell their families to stop it immediately. Do not drag the parental dirty laundry out in front of the kids; long-term, it'll make the post-divorce easier for both parties, and the kids'll thank them for it later!
posted by easily confused at 9:31 AM on October 26, 2011 [9 favorites]
posted by easily confused at 9:31 AM on October 26, 2011 [9 favorites]
1.) Don't bad mouth the other parent.
2.) Your lawyer is NOT your friend or your therapist.
3.) You should see a therapist if only because it will help you from pissing off your friends with a barrage of divorce talk. Because amicable or not, a divorce with kids consumes your life. Your life will become appreciably different and not necessarily better with a divorce.
4.) Don't parade your new love interest around the kids right away.
posted by PsuDab93 at 11:02 AM on October 26, 2011
2.) Your lawyer is NOT your friend or your therapist.
3.) You should see a therapist if only because it will help you from pissing off your friends with a barrage of divorce talk. Because amicable or not, a divorce with kids consumes your life. Your life will become appreciably different and not necessarily better with a divorce.
4.) Don't parade your new love interest around the kids right away.
posted by PsuDab93 at 11:02 AM on October 26, 2011
I went through this about 7 years ago:
- Lawyer and therapist: he might not be in a place to judge what he deserves right now, in custody, money, etc. I've seen folks create animosity by thinking they deserve more. Me? I screwed myself out of a sense of guilt and a not-great "mutual moderator" who didn't bring up important things like holiday sharing, when to reassess child support due to promotions/job losses, not getting my name off the mortgage, etc. A therapist helps you see it neutrally -- because friends and family won't see it neutrally and a lawyer isn't about his feelings.
- Don't give the kids a book. There's no book that will help. The kids will be confused and thrown into weirdness. But if there's a new normal and a new routine, he needs to establish a new normal and a new routine right away. And that's hard when you're an emotional wreck. It is an exercise in pulling your shit together without being fake and building a new life (or half life or just weekends life or every-other-weekend life) for the kids. However, do avoid THE PARENT TRAP for a while. It's way confusing.
- The awesome thing is that the kids are under 6. That doesn't sound awesome, but my daughter was 5 and only has a few vague memories of life before the divorce. This split life is her normal. In fact, I've caught her advising other kids who are going through a divorce now about the good things. He should be ready if they need help/therapy/more support, but not act as if they are broken.
- If he's the one moving out, he should invest the time and energy to make a space for the kids in the new place that is theirs and feels like home. If he's keeping the family home, divide up their familiar stuff as much as possible to make sure they feel like both places are theirs.
- Agree with the ex the policy about introducing new people (i.e., dating) and make sure it's mutual. Then stick to it. Yes, he'll eventually want to date someone who likes kids, even if it feels like he will never will right now. But the kids need stability and new people, tenuous dating, etc. is just awful.
- Don't spoil them out of guilt. Because once he comes to, he'll be stuck with spoiled children who've learned to manipulate guilt.
posted by Gucky at 11:42 AM on October 26, 2011
- Lawyer and therapist: he might not be in a place to judge what he deserves right now, in custody, money, etc. I've seen folks create animosity by thinking they deserve more. Me? I screwed myself out of a sense of guilt and a not-great "mutual moderator" who didn't bring up important things like holiday sharing, when to reassess child support due to promotions/job losses, not getting my name off the mortgage, etc. A therapist helps you see it neutrally -- because friends and family won't see it neutrally and a lawyer isn't about his feelings.
- Don't give the kids a book. There's no book that will help. The kids will be confused and thrown into weirdness. But if there's a new normal and a new routine, he needs to establish a new normal and a new routine right away. And that's hard when you're an emotional wreck. It is an exercise in pulling your shit together without being fake and building a new life (or half life or just weekends life or every-other-weekend life) for the kids. However, do avoid THE PARENT TRAP for a while. It's way confusing.
- The awesome thing is that the kids are under 6. That doesn't sound awesome, but my daughter was 5 and only has a few vague memories of life before the divorce. This split life is her normal. In fact, I've caught her advising other kids who are going through a divorce now about the good things. He should be ready if they need help/therapy/more support, but not act as if they are broken.
- If he's the one moving out, he should invest the time and energy to make a space for the kids in the new place that is theirs and feels like home. If he's keeping the family home, divide up their familiar stuff as much as possible to make sure they feel like both places are theirs.
- Agree with the ex the policy about introducing new people (i.e., dating) and make sure it's mutual. Then stick to it. Yes, he'll eventually want to date someone who likes kids, even if it feels like he will never will right now. But the kids need stability and new people, tenuous dating, etc. is just awful.
- Don't spoil them out of guilt. Because once he comes to, he'll be stuck with spoiled children who've learned to manipulate guilt.
posted by Gucky at 11:42 AM on October 26, 2011
Nesting is probably not a reasonable expectation if one of the kids is under 1 year and especially if the mom is a SAHM
posted by zia at 11:49 AM on October 26, 2011
posted by zia at 11:49 AM on October 26, 2011
Chiming back in to support the idea of a therapist.
Your lawyer is not your therapist.
If you call him to talk about your issues, two things will happen. The first is that other than the sheer value of getting stuff off your chest, you will receive remarkably little benefit from the conversation, because your lawyer is neither equipped/trained to talk about your emotional health nor particularly interested in doing so. The second is that your lawyer will likely charge you his full rate for such a conversation, and I guarantee you that this will be way more expensive than just hiring a therapist. Therapy may be expensive, but it's unlikely to be $150/hour expensive, and though you may possibly be able to get coverage for therapy under your health plan, there's no way there's coverage for your legal fees.
posted by valkyryn at 12:06 PM on October 26, 2011
Your lawyer is not your therapist.
If you call him to talk about your issues, two things will happen. The first is that other than the sheer value of getting stuff off your chest, you will receive remarkably little benefit from the conversation, because your lawyer is neither equipped/trained to talk about your emotional health nor particularly interested in doing so. The second is that your lawyer will likely charge you his full rate for such a conversation, and I guarantee you that this will be way more expensive than just hiring a therapist. Therapy may be expensive, but it's unlikely to be $150/hour expensive, and though you may possibly be able to get coverage for therapy under your health plan, there's no way there's coverage for your legal fees.
posted by valkyryn at 12:06 PM on October 26, 2011
I am divorced without kids married now remarried to a man divorced with kids. I want to buck the prevailing opinions here and suggest that while it's super-important to meet with lawyers and find one they feel comfortable with hiring, if things are currently amicable then joint mediation with a licensed divorce mediator is far, far better than going to court and fighting things out. Not only because more of your assets are kept within the family, but also because learning how to compromise with each other now, and try to find solutions both can live with, will be an immense help down the road when the divorce is final and they have both moved on, but new issues arise (they always do) as the children grow older.
Bringing in lawyers often creates conflict as differences become structured in terms of "rights" rather than negotiable problems, which makes every compromise feel like a capitulation or loss of those rights. Which then sets a grudge the next time there is a conflict, and not wanting to get 'taken advantage of' again.
A therapist is a great idea - there are actually family therapists out there who can coach divorcing couples in how to tell the news to their children together, how to answer likely questions, and how to follow up afterwards. These people can be incredibly helpful at separating personal drama between the couple from the actual needs of the children stuck in the middle.
posted by Mchelly at 12:11 PM on October 26, 2011
Bringing in lawyers often creates conflict as differences become structured in terms of "rights" rather than negotiable problems, which makes every compromise feel like a capitulation or loss of those rights. Which then sets a grudge the next time there is a conflict, and not wanting to get 'taken advantage of' again.
A therapist is a great idea - there are actually family therapists out there who can coach divorcing couples in how to tell the news to their children together, how to answer likely questions, and how to follow up afterwards. These people can be incredibly helpful at separating personal drama between the couple from the actual needs of the children stuck in the middle.
posted by Mchelly at 12:11 PM on October 26, 2011
Nesting is probably not a reasonable expectation if one of the kids is under 1 year
Of course it is.
and especially if the mom is a SAHM
The OP didn't indicate that she is, or whether the husband is a SAHD. Regardless, if the at-work parent is "on" then they come home to the family home after work and the SAHParent leaves for the night and returns in the morning in time for the at-work parent to leave for the day. It's more steps for the parents but better for the kids.
posted by headnsouth at 12:15 PM on October 26, 2011
Of course it is.
and especially if the mom is a SAHM
The OP didn't indicate that she is, or whether the husband is a SAHD. Regardless, if the at-work parent is "on" then they come home to the family home after work and the SAHParent leaves for the night and returns in the morning in time for the at-work parent to leave for the day. It's more steps for the parents but better for the kids.
posted by headnsouth at 12:15 PM on October 26, 2011
Mod note: From the OP:
Both parents are working full-time jobs. The 6 year old is particularly emotional and sensitive. Today is the day after divorce was decided upon and his wife is now angry, so the amicable part may be tenuous.posted by jessamyn (staff) at 12:30 PM on October 26, 2011
Put the kids and their needs first. Don't use them as a football, and definitely don't badmouth each other in front of the kids, have screaming fights in front of the kids, etc.
A therapist for the kids is a great idea.
The less the kids have to give up the better. Moving, changing schools, giving up cherished pets and old friends, will add another layer of loss on top of the divorce loss. Try to keep the kids' living situation, school or daycare, pets, etc. the same as they were pre-divorce.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 1:08 PM on October 26, 2011
A therapist for the kids is a great idea.
The less the kids have to give up the better. Moving, changing schools, giving up cherished pets and old friends, will add another layer of loss on top of the divorce loss. Try to keep the kids' living situation, school or daycare, pets, etc. the same as they were pre-divorce.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 1:08 PM on October 26, 2011
Nobody's mentioned this so I would advise my friend, no matter how strong the urge, to hold off on dating for at least 6 months. Maybe even a year.
posted by kinetic at 1:22 PM on October 26, 2011
posted by kinetic at 1:22 PM on October 26, 2011
My parents split up when I was seven, so my advice comes from the child's perspective.
It is essential that both parents do their very, very best to behave honorably and respectfully to each other, because the kids are paying attention. It doesn't really matter what it's about (short of the other parent being abusive) — whatever irritations, frustrations, conflicts, or misunderstandings the parents have between them, those problems are not the kids' fault, not the kids' responsibility, and not anything the kids should have to try to resolve.
posted by Lexica at 2:03 PM on October 26, 2011 [2 favorites]
It is essential that both parents do their very, very best to behave honorably and respectfully to each other, because the kids are paying attention. It doesn't really matter what it's about (short of the other parent being abusive) — whatever irritations, frustrations, conflicts, or misunderstandings the parents have between them, those problems are not the kids' fault, not the kids' responsibility, and not anything the kids should have to try to resolve.
posted by Lexica at 2:03 PM on October 26, 2011 [2 favorites]
If they are in Wisconsin, I'd recommmend collaborative divorce, if this is an amiable end to their marriage. Lawyers are still involved, however.
posted by kuppajava at 5:47 PM on October 26, 2011
posted by kuppajava at 5:47 PM on October 26, 2011
Um... YMMV, but I'm just finishing up a temporary nesting arrangement, and it sucked bigtime. Was it good for my daughter? Maybe. It did delay some of the major changes in her life. It also meant that the house was never clean, real dinners were rarely being cooked, and both parents were stressed out of our gourds. And I say this as someone with an extremely amicable relationship with my ex: even when the parents are getting along, this arrangement is very, very hard.
posted by missrachael at 1:29 PM on October 27, 2011
posted by missrachael at 1:29 PM on October 27, 2011
I'll second missrachael's anecdata....
I did a "nesting" arrangement during the separation and it was horrible.
Nesting is like driving with your feet. I guess you could do it if you had to (the current economy is decent reason to do so). But if you don't have to, why would you?
Oh, and some more divorce anecdata: A majority of divorces do not go to court. Most are settled before hand. Lawyers help you to see things you may not see for yourself, which is why I preferred having my own lawyer vice having a mediator and risk negotiating without all of the angles covered.
posted by PsuDab93 at 7:44 AM on October 28, 2011
I did a "nesting" arrangement during the separation and it was horrible.
Nesting is like driving with your feet. I guess you could do it if you had to (the current economy is decent reason to do so). But if you don't have to, why would you?
Oh, and some more divorce anecdata: A majority of divorces do not go to court. Most are settled before hand. Lawyers help you to see things you may not see for yourself, which is why I preferred having my own lawyer vice having a mediator and risk negotiating without all of the angles covered.
posted by PsuDab93 at 7:44 AM on October 28, 2011
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by OmieWise at 8:16 AM on October 26, 2011 [9 favorites]