The Friendship Dating Pool
October 24, 2011 1:56 AM Subscribe
Am I some form of abnormal for thinking about my friend this way?
I am on vacation, visiting a few friends. I'm staying with one of them (F) and therefore spending rather a lot of time with F.
We are both single.
F's hobbies and interests are very acceptable to me (we originally met through one of these, an MMO we both still play). We've done a few things together and had some fantastic conversation.
During the time I've spent with F, I've realized I might be quite content getting into a relationship with this person. Is this weird? Am I abnormal? Do single people sometimes think of their also-single friends this way?
...Do I want to risk damaging what has thus far been an AWESOME long-distance friendship and what is becoming a quite welcome in-person friendship for the chance of a long-distance Relationship that could become a quite welcome in-person Relationship? (Obviously, this part is mostly rhetorical as the only one who could answer that is me or F.)
I'm also hesitant to make the first move from friend to Friend. I've made a few 'safe' flirting gestures but nothing really overt that says 'Hi, I would like to consider formally dating you'. F hasn't responded with similar gestures, although we have had playful arguments over who will pay for what (ninjaing the check, etc). (It's a pain in the ass trying to say 'Hi, I would like to consider formally dating you' while trying not to say it, and yes I realize how stupid that sounds.)
I do not have many similarly-gendered folks I can ask about this (and none convenient to speak to at a moment's notice), so I turn to the Hivemind for help.
tl;dr: I know I like my friend, but I think I want to Like my friend. Halp?
I am not terribly concerned about F figuring out who I am; F knows me by plenty of names, none of which even remotely resemble this one.
I am on vacation, visiting a few friends. I'm staying with one of them (F) and therefore spending rather a lot of time with F.
We are both single.
F's hobbies and interests are very acceptable to me (we originally met through one of these, an MMO we both still play). We've done a few things together and had some fantastic conversation.
During the time I've spent with F, I've realized I might be quite content getting into a relationship with this person. Is this weird? Am I abnormal? Do single people sometimes think of their also-single friends this way?
...Do I want to risk damaging what has thus far been an AWESOME long-distance friendship and what is becoming a quite welcome in-person friendship for the chance of a long-distance Relationship that could become a quite welcome in-person Relationship? (Obviously, this part is mostly rhetorical as the only one who could answer that is me or F.)
I'm also hesitant to make the first move from friend to Friend. I've made a few 'safe' flirting gestures but nothing really overt that says 'Hi, I would like to consider formally dating you'. F hasn't responded with similar gestures, although we have had playful arguments over who will pay for what (ninjaing the check, etc). (It's a pain in the ass trying to say 'Hi, I would like to consider formally dating you' while trying not to say it, and yes I realize how stupid that sounds.)
I do not have many similarly-gendered folks I can ask about this (and none convenient to speak to at a moment's notice), so I turn to the Hivemind for help.
tl;dr: I know I like my friend, but I think I want to Like my friend. Halp?
I am not terribly concerned about F figuring out who I am; F knows me by plenty of names, none of which even remotely resemble this one.
Response by poster: Sorry. That IS a good data-point; we are of opposite genders and straight.
I'll stop threadsitting now and go to bed. |:
posted by Heretical at 2:12 AM on October 24, 2011
I'll stop threadsitting now and go to bed. |:
posted by Heretical at 2:12 AM on October 24, 2011
I'm a bit confused by
>F's hobbies and interests are very acceptable to me
which suggests to me that you are judging your friend. Do you mean to say that you tolerate your friend's hobbies and interests or you also share their hobbies and interests?
Everyone I've ever dated as been a friend first. It's a quite common method of dating and can be a great way to find a lasting relationship. It is true that you might damage your friendship, but you might not. I'm still friends with people I've rejected or been rejected by as dating partners. The important thing is to respect their boundaries. Make the move and, if it is shot down, be graceful and return to being friends.
In this situation, I've always been straight forward. I'd approach F and say something like, "I like you a lot and would love to date you, but I also don't want to lose you as a friend. Would you care to go on a date with me to XYZ?" If s/he refuses, back off and treat them the same as you did before.
posted by avagoyle at 2:14 AM on October 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
>F's hobbies and interests are very acceptable to me
which suggests to me that you are judging your friend. Do you mean to say that you tolerate your friend's hobbies and interests or you also share their hobbies and interests?
Everyone I've ever dated as been a friend first. It's a quite common method of dating and can be a great way to find a lasting relationship. It is true that you might damage your friendship, but you might not. I'm still friends with people I've rejected or been rejected by as dating partners. The important thing is to respect their boundaries. Make the move and, if it is shot down, be graceful and return to being friends.
In this situation, I've always been straight forward. I'd approach F and say something like, "I like you a lot and would love to date you, but I also don't want to lose you as a friend. Would you care to go on a date with me to XYZ?" If s/he refuses, back off and treat them the same as you did before.
posted by avagoyle at 2:14 AM on October 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
"Is this weird? Am I abnormal? Do single people sometimes think of their also-single friends this way?"
Well, how else would people start dating and therefore get into relationships? one person who is single likes another person who is single and they start dating. It's about the most common experience throughout the history of the world, reinforced by literature, history books, art, and media. I mean, are you honestly wondering if this is weird? Or is there some part of your situation which you did not include which would somehow make it weird?
posted by bearette at 2:15 AM on October 24, 2011 [5 favorites]
Well, how else would people start dating and therefore get into relationships? one person who is single likes another person who is single and they start dating. It's about the most common experience throughout the history of the world, reinforced by literature, history books, art, and media. I mean, are you honestly wondering if this is weird? Or is there some part of your situation which you did not include which would somehow make it weird?
posted by bearette at 2:15 AM on October 24, 2011 [5 favorites]
Best answer: I think it is more abnormal for straight, single, opposite-gendered friends to NOT consider each other as potential dates. Especially if they are close enough that one will stay with the other when on vacation. Make a move already.
posted by lollusc at 2:28 AM on October 24, 2011 [4 favorites]
posted by lollusc at 2:28 AM on October 24, 2011 [4 favorites]
Best answer: do be very careful about making a move, especially since you're staying with her. If she isn't interested, you have to back off and respect her boundaries, even if she is too polite to openly stand up for them.
That being said, the best relationshops are also good friendships, so it's totally natural to think of her that way. Just make sure that if she doesn't respond to your flirting, you give it up - it would be a shame to end up making her uncomfortable in her own home.
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 2:41 AM on October 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
That being said, the best relationshops are also good friendships, so it's totally natural to think of her that way. Just make sure that if she doesn't respond to your flirting, you give it up - it would be a shame to end up making her uncomfortable in her own home.
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 2:41 AM on October 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
Is F also a Robot?
Um, there's a lot to be said for playing it cool, and sitting back. If F also feels you are a compatible unit F will drop (not always obvious) hints. Sounds like you are hitting it off. If F wants to make it happen F will let you know.
posted by the noob at 2:41 AM on October 24, 2011 [6 favorites]
Um, there's a lot to be said for playing it cool, and sitting back. If F also feels you are a compatible unit F will drop (not always obvious) hints. Sounds like you are hitting it off. If F wants to make it happen F will let you know.
posted by the noob at 2:41 AM on October 24, 2011 [6 favorites]
Best answer: do be very careful about making a move, especially since you're staying with her.
QFE. If you do make a move, I'd wait until the last day or when you're back home. You're affections might make him/her very uncomfortable (more-so if its a she) if they're unrequited. "dont shit where you sleep", its a lot easier to reject someone you're not interested in amicably from a distance vs when they're staying in your home.
posted by missmagenta at 2:48 AM on October 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
QFE. If you do make a move, I'd wait until the last day or when you're back home. You're affections might make him/her very uncomfortable (more-so if its a she) if they're unrequited. "dont shit where you sleep", its a lot easier to reject someone you're not interested in amicably from a distance vs when they're staying in your home.
posted by missmagenta at 2:48 AM on October 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
I'd approach F and say something like, "I like you a lot and would love to do you, but I also don't want to lose you as a friend. Would you care to go on a date with me to XYZ?"
There is little difference between love to "date" you and love to "do" you. As a straight male with many female friends this is a line you cross with great care and consideration.
It's not abnormal to become attracted to a friends and others say it is a common way that relationships begin given that there is some mutual romantic interest.
If F wants to make it happen F will let you know.
This is exactly right. Don't flirt with her as a means to probe her interest and to show yours. If she's not interested you will only make her uncomfortable. If she is and you are (romantically interested that is) simply spending time together will resolve the matter.
posted by three blind mice at 2:50 AM on October 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
There is little difference between love to "date" you and love to "do" you. As a straight male with many female friends this is a line you cross with great care and consideration.
It's not abnormal to become attracted to a friends and others say it is a common way that relationships begin given that there is some mutual romantic interest.
If F wants to make it happen F will let you know.
This is exactly right. Don't flirt with her as a means to probe her interest and to show yours. If she's not interested you will only make her uncomfortable. If she is and you are (romantically interested that is) simply spending time together will resolve the matter.
posted by three blind mice at 2:50 AM on October 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
Best answer: This is exactly right. Don't flirt with her as a means to probe her interest and to show yours. If she's not interested you will only make her uncomfortable. If she is and you are (romantically interested that is) simply spending time together will resolve the matter.
Or it will lock you into a Mexican standoff for eight years.
I look forward to the changing of the seasons, the falling of the leaves, Christmas, the Spring thaw, summer followed by the golden tones of autumn, and with them all, the posting of the "does he/she like me just as a friend, or...?" from each of you, anonymously.
In a year's time, F will probably mention someone else she's interested in, and you will be crestfallen and take it as a clear signal of her disinterest in you. She will be crestfallen because she said it to test you and see if you would say, "No, wait!..." and the seasons will change again. Occasionally you will drop a really subtle hint, like a single keyword embedded in a Tweet that seems like it's not directed at her or anything, and be crestfallen when she doesn't throw herself at you despite having had every chance to read it. The years will roll by. But at least you won't have risked looking weird or anything!!!
I do take the point that you shouldn't spook her while you're staying with her as a guest. Wait until after you leave, or just before you leave, to say something.
posted by tel3path at 3:15 AM on October 24, 2011 [48 favorites]
Or it will lock you into a Mexican standoff for eight years.
I look forward to the changing of the seasons, the falling of the leaves, Christmas, the Spring thaw, summer followed by the golden tones of autumn, and with them all, the posting of the "does he/she like me just as a friend, or...?" from each of you, anonymously.
In a year's time, F will probably mention someone else she's interested in, and you will be crestfallen and take it as a clear signal of her disinterest in you. She will be crestfallen because she said it to test you and see if you would say, "No, wait!..." and the seasons will change again. Occasionally you will drop a really subtle hint, like a single keyword embedded in a Tweet that seems like it's not directed at her or anything, and be crestfallen when she doesn't throw herself at you despite having had every chance to read it. The years will roll by. But at least you won't have risked looking weird or anything!!!
I do take the point that you shouldn't spook her while you're staying with her as a guest. Wait until after you leave, or just before you leave, to say something.
posted by tel3path at 3:15 AM on October 24, 2011 [48 favorites]
"I might be quite content getting into a relationship with this person.
I'm also hesitant to make the first move from friend to Friend.
tl;dr: I know I like my friend, but I think I want to Like my friend."
You don't exactly sound very fired up about this. you "might" be "quite content"???
I might be out of the loop, but I don't understand how capitalising the words friend and like somehow changes their definition...?
what's weird about this is your wording, which I find kinda unsettling, and the fact that you don't realise that two single friends getting it together is extremely common.
posted by alan2001 at 3:21 AM on October 24, 2011 [3 favorites]
I'm also hesitant to make the first move from friend to Friend.
tl;dr: I know I like my friend, but I think I want to Like my friend."
You don't exactly sound very fired up about this. you "might" be "quite content"???
I might be out of the loop, but I don't understand how capitalising the words friend and like somehow changes their definition...?
what's weird about this is your wording, which I find kinda unsettling, and the fact that you don't realise that two single friends getting it together is extremely common.
posted by alan2001 at 3:21 AM on October 24, 2011 [3 favorites]
People have different emotional temperatures when it comes to relationships.
Some people can just throw caution to the wind, declare their intentions, and see what happens.
Others are slower and more cautious.
The OP comes across to me as a sensitive, thoughtful, cautious person in the question, if a little preoccupied with what is 'normal.'
Of course it's 'normal' to develop an attraction to a friend. Of course it's 'normal' to want to take things further, just as it's 'normal' to be scared of jeopardizing a friendship by trying to move the relationship out of friend territory.
It sounds like you already like your friend. Be brave and see where it goes. And good luck!
posted by nerdfish at 3:39 AM on October 24, 2011 [3 favorites]
Some people can just throw caution to the wind, declare their intentions, and see what happens.
Others are slower and more cautious.
The OP comes across to me as a sensitive, thoughtful, cautious person in the question, if a little preoccupied with what is 'normal.'
Of course it's 'normal' to develop an attraction to a friend. Of course it's 'normal' to want to take things further, just as it's 'normal' to be scared of jeopardizing a friendship by trying to move the relationship out of friend territory.
It sounds like you already like your friend. Be brave and see where it goes. And good luck!
posted by nerdfish at 3:39 AM on October 24, 2011 [3 favorites]
Your question has a vibe of "this person would be acceptable" in it, rather than "this person is amazing and awesome and knocks my socks off." This could be totally off-base, but just in case: is there any chance you feel interested in your friend because s/he feels like your only plausible chance for a relationship? If so, back off -- OKCupid can turn up many more other humans who are looking for a relationship and just might be far more than just content to find one with you.
If I'm off-base and this person totally knocks your socks off and is very possibly Your Person, disregard this and carry on.
posted by pie ninja at 4:01 AM on October 24, 2011 [8 favorites]
If I'm off-base and this person totally knocks your socks off and is very possibly Your Person, disregard this and carry on.
posted by pie ninja at 4:01 AM on October 24, 2011 [8 favorites]
Best answer: Others have picked up on your "I consider this female reasonably pleasant, and perhaps she would make a suitable mate" description. My guess is that your feelings about it are not cold, and you're affecting some Comic Book Guy-style haughtiness/understatement in order to give yourself some distance, to protect yourself in case things don't work out.
Time to drop that shield. Asking someone out, especially if it's someone you already really value, is risking rejection and heartbreak no matter what. There's no way to eliminate that risk completely. You need to let yourself be vulnerable for this. If you're too guarded, she's not going to know you're into her. Ask her, and be obvious and sincere and enthusiastic. It might fail: she might say no, she might say yes and then it all falls apart a few weeks later. Retreat and protect yourself if that happens, not before.
This sort of thing, friends becoming partners, happens a lot. It also doesn't-happen a lot. If we could accurately predict our relationships' outcomes before beginning them, there'd be a lot more single and cynical people in the world. You won't know until you put yourself out there.
Ask her after you leave, though. Unless, on your last night, you do that movie thing where you look into each other's eyes and suddenly start making out. That's okay too.
posted by Metroid Baby at 4:48 AM on October 24, 2011 [15 favorites]
Time to drop that shield. Asking someone out, especially if it's someone you already really value, is risking rejection and heartbreak no matter what. There's no way to eliminate that risk completely. You need to let yourself be vulnerable for this. If you're too guarded, she's not going to know you're into her. Ask her, and be obvious and sincere and enthusiastic. It might fail: she might say no, she might say yes and then it all falls apart a few weeks later. Retreat and protect yourself if that happens, not before.
This sort of thing, friends becoming partners, happens a lot. It also doesn't-happen a lot. If we could accurately predict our relationships' outcomes before beginning them, there'd be a lot more single and cynical people in the world. You won't know until you put yourself out there.
Ask her after you leave, though. Unless, on your last night, you do that movie thing where you look into each other's eyes and suddenly start making out. That's okay too.
posted by Metroid Baby at 4:48 AM on October 24, 2011 [15 favorites]
The OP comes across to me as a sensitive, thoughtful, cautious person in the question, if a little preoccupied with what is 'normal.'
That was my reading of the situation, too.
Time to drop that shield. Asking someone out, especially if it's someone you already really value, is risking rejection and heartbreak no matter what. There's no way to eliminate that risk completely. You need to let yourself be vulnerable for this. If you're too guarded, she's not going to know you're into her. Ask her, and be obvious and sincere and enthusiastic. It might fail: she might say no, she might say yes and then it all falls apart a few weeks later. Retreat and protect yourself if that happens, not before.
Perfect advice. Don't do this in a way that makes her uncomfortable or feel trapped. But I think it's far, far better to man up and risk rejection than it is to drop hints and put all the responsibility of making a move on her.
In this situation, I've always been straight forward. I'd approach F and say something like, "I like you a lot and would love to date you, but I also don't want to lose you as a friend. Would you care to go on a date with me to XYZ?" If s/he refuses, back off and treat them the same as you did before.
I've also had great luck with that kind of straight forward language. As long as you aren't all creepster in your approach, people mostly seem to be flattered that someone likes them, even if that liking isn't reciprocated.
(However, if you are someone who has trouble reading body language, or struggles with social cues that other people seem to take for granted, then I'd suggest double checking your approach and reading of the situation, and triple checking that your approach is going to be comfortable for her. And remember, the iron-clad rule is that if she says "no," you suck it up and don't mope, don't whine, don't keep hinting, and don't make her feel uncomfortable, no matter how you feel inside.)
posted by Forktine at 5:07 AM on October 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
That was my reading of the situation, too.
Time to drop that shield. Asking someone out, especially if it's someone you already really value, is risking rejection and heartbreak no matter what. There's no way to eliminate that risk completely. You need to let yourself be vulnerable for this. If you're too guarded, she's not going to know you're into her. Ask her, and be obvious and sincere and enthusiastic. It might fail: she might say no, she might say yes and then it all falls apart a few weeks later. Retreat and protect yourself if that happens, not before.
Perfect advice. Don't do this in a way that makes her uncomfortable or feel trapped. But I think it's far, far better to man up and risk rejection than it is to drop hints and put all the responsibility of making a move on her.
In this situation, I've always been straight forward. I'd approach F and say something like, "I like you a lot and would love to date you, but I also don't want to lose you as a friend. Would you care to go on a date with me to XYZ?" If s/he refuses, back off and treat them the same as you did before.
I've also had great luck with that kind of straight forward language. As long as you aren't all creepster in your approach, people mostly seem to be flattered that someone likes them, even if that liking isn't reciprocated.
(However, if you are someone who has trouble reading body language, or struggles with social cues that other people seem to take for granted, then I'd suggest double checking your approach and reading of the situation, and triple checking that your approach is going to be comfortable for her. And remember, the iron-clad rule is that if she says "no," you suck it up and don't mope, don't whine, don't keep hinting, and don't make her feel uncomfortable, no matter how you feel inside.)
posted by Forktine at 5:07 AM on October 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
Nthing the "weird tone" observation to your post.
Usually, though, I've found it to be the case that people take that tone if they're prone to seriously overthinking everything, as a sort of weird defense mechanism. It's like you have to justify to yourself whether you're allowed to feel something rather than just going ahead and feeling it. I can be that way myself, and I've always found that if I stop trying to intellectualize, rationalize, or "figure out if this is normal" and just go with "whether it's right or wrong doesn't matter, what do I feel about this", then the answer becomes blindingly obvious.
So in your case: try just setting aside the "is it normal for friends to start getting attracted to each other" question for the present, and instead ask yourself "do I dig my friend and do I want to ask her out?" If the answer is yes, then - do. Tread carefully, because the friends-to-dating thing can be funky. But if the answer is "not really," then...there you have it.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:29 AM on October 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
Usually, though, I've found it to be the case that people take that tone if they're prone to seriously overthinking everything, as a sort of weird defense mechanism. It's like you have to justify to yourself whether you're allowed to feel something rather than just going ahead and feeling it. I can be that way myself, and I've always found that if I stop trying to intellectualize, rationalize, or "figure out if this is normal" and just go with "whether it's right or wrong doesn't matter, what do I feel about this", then the answer becomes blindingly obvious.
So in your case: try just setting aside the "is it normal for friends to start getting attracted to each other" question for the present, and instead ask yourself "do I dig my friend and do I want to ask her out?" If the answer is yes, then - do. Tread carefully, because the friends-to-dating thing can be funky. But if the answer is "not really," then...there you have it.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:29 AM on October 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
No, you're not abnormal for having a crush on a friend. Like others have said, if you want this to end well, you need to (1) figure out if you actually like her, and (2) step up and make a move beyond dropping subtle, ambiguous hints. You're not likely to fall into a relationship by trying to protect yourself by trying to avoid looking like you want one.
One other thing to consider: long distance relationships are tough. Starting dating on a long distance basis is even harder. Especially because you sound unsure of your feelings and inexperienced in dating, it might be worth considering your crush to be a pleasant feeling but otherwise moving on and instead joining OkCupid or something when you get home.
posted by J. Wilson at 5:57 AM on October 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
One other thing to consider: long distance relationships are tough. Starting dating on a long distance basis is even harder. Especially because you sound unsure of your feelings and inexperienced in dating, it might be worth considering your crush to be a pleasant feeling but otherwise moving on and instead joining OkCupid or something when you get home.
posted by J. Wilson at 5:57 AM on October 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
I don't see anything gender specific in the question? Where's everyone getting that F is female? It looks like the OP went to some lengths to make the question gender neutral.
posted by sweetkid at 6:43 AM on October 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by sweetkid at 6:43 AM on October 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
Where's everyone getting that F is female? It looks like the OP went to some lengths to make the question gender neutral.
You are right. I think I interpreted F as "Female," just because of the common dating site acronyms. If there was an edit function, I'd make my answer gender neutral as well -- the advice stands, regardless of gender, but I wish I had caught that.
posted by Forktine at 6:48 AM on October 24, 2011
You are right. I think I interpreted F as "Female," just because of the common dating site acronyms. If there was an edit function, I'd make my answer gender neutral as well -- the advice stands, regardless of gender, but I wish I had caught that.
posted by Forktine at 6:48 AM on October 24, 2011
Best answer: Well. There's a lot of assumption going on that the OP is male and the friend is the female. As a lifelong (female) gamer who has been the shy one before in approaching friends I was crashing on, this could've been my story.
I met my boyfriend via an MMO. It can work. We had some distance and starter issues. And I know it's tough, but you never get anywhere in life without taking a few risks.
posted by cmgonzalez at 7:44 AM on October 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
I met my boyfriend via an MMO. It can work. We had some distance and starter issues. And I know it's tough, but you never get anywhere in life without taking a few risks.
posted by cmgonzalez at 7:44 AM on October 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
It's irrelevant who is female here. The OP is the one who knows for certain that they're attracted, and there is an established relationship of affection (friendship) between them in which they both have equal status.
In some circumstances, I might suggest escalating with seductive behaviour in order to add some Mystery and Excitement to the proceedings, rather than just going for the blunt yes/no question. I believe these are not the right circumstances because:
1. They're long-distance friends, making it far too easy to slip through the cracks.
2. F hasn't responded to flirting with flirting (for whatever reason), so for the sake of the friendship, and out of respect for F's emotional boundaries, it's more important to disambiguate than escalate, especially given the time constraints.
posted by tel3path at 8:21 AM on October 24, 2011
In some circumstances, I might suggest escalating with seductive behaviour in order to add some Mystery and Excitement to the proceedings, rather than just going for the blunt yes/no question. I believe these are not the right circumstances because:
1. They're long-distance friends, making it far too easy to slip through the cracks.
2. F hasn't responded to flirting with flirting (for whatever reason), so for the sake of the friendship, and out of respect for F's emotional boundaries, it's more important to disambiguate than escalate, especially given the time constraints.
posted by tel3path at 8:21 AM on October 24, 2011
Yeah, I think it's time for the grownup equivalent of the "do you like me Y/N circle one" note here.
"Hey, I was just wondering if you'd like to try going on a date sometime as a couple? No big deal if not -- you're an awesome friend. I just think we get along well together and it might be worth giving it a try."
Then if they're into it, try going out to dinner or something and see how it works.
Nerds are at our best with cards-on-the-table sincerity, minus the overtalking and abstract phrasing. Just tell them it's an option you're open to, keep the stakes low, and if you really are happy with the friendship you have, be ready for that to be enough.
posted by Honorable John at 8:48 AM on October 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
"Hey, I was just wondering if you'd like to try going on a date sometime as a couple? No big deal if not -- you're an awesome friend. I just think we get along well together and it might be worth giving it a try."
Then if they're into it, try going out to dinner or something and see how it works.
Nerds are at our best with cards-on-the-table sincerity, minus the overtalking and abstract phrasing. Just tell them it's an option you're open to, keep the stakes low, and if you really are happy with the friendship you have, be ready for that to be enough.
posted by Honorable John at 8:48 AM on October 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: After a good night's sleep I realize yes, some of these things are a bit confusing. 'F' stands for 'Friend', not (necessarily) Female. I do appreciate the advice from both angles!
The 'Comic Book Guy style understatement' pretty much defines everything I ever say. TO clarify, I find F's hobbies AWESOME. Those that I don't actively engage in are ones I have considered actively engaging in, but find vastly more interesting when I have someone to share them with. I wouldn't say I'm preoccupied with 'normal', but more interested in what would be considered abnormal in most social circles, explained below.
...and the fact that you don't realise that two single friends getting it together is extremely common.
I had a SEVERELY damaging divorce a couple years ago, and it shattered my self-image and ability to recognize and define a relationship. I'm worlds better now and back to being 'me' again, but I'm still a bit awkward on my feet. I do feel more comfortable around F having known them since before the horrible divorce. It's not that I'm inexperienced and awkward with the idea of dating; I'm just re-discovering that yes, I CAN still be a human being and hey wow, I can live again without an abusive Other! (It's very exciting, really.)
'Yeah, I think it's time for the grownup equivalent of the "do you like me Y/N circle one" note here.' This right here made me just crack UP. Reminds me of the scene from The American President with the line 'I can pass her a note before recess...' *cough* Right, anyway.
I've gone on a few 'just the two of us' things. Eating at various local places, watching a movie, traveling to a concert and seeing some local attractions along the way. I've enjoyed the hell out of it so far, and I have a whole week left of similar activity.
I'm keeping the 'wait until near the end of the trip to say something'. I like this advice very much.
posted by Heretical at 10:20 AM on October 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
The 'Comic Book Guy style understatement' pretty much defines everything I ever say. TO clarify, I find F's hobbies AWESOME. Those that I don't actively engage in are ones I have considered actively engaging in, but find vastly more interesting when I have someone to share them with. I wouldn't say I'm preoccupied with 'normal', but more interested in what would be considered abnormal in most social circles, explained below.
...and the fact that you don't realise that two single friends getting it together is extremely common.
I had a SEVERELY damaging divorce a couple years ago, and it shattered my self-image and ability to recognize and define a relationship. I'm worlds better now and back to being 'me' again, but I'm still a bit awkward on my feet. I do feel more comfortable around F having known them since before the horrible divorce. It's not that I'm inexperienced and awkward with the idea of dating; I'm just re-discovering that yes, I CAN still be a human being and hey wow, I can live again without an abusive Other! (It's very exciting, really.)
'Yeah, I think it's time for the grownup equivalent of the "do you like me Y/N circle one" note here.' This right here made me just crack UP. Reminds me of the scene from The American President with the line 'I can pass her a note before recess...' *cough* Right, anyway.
I've gone on a few 'just the two of us' things. Eating at various local places, watching a movie, traveling to a concert and seeing some local attractions along the way. I've enjoyed the hell out of it so far, and I have a whole week left of similar activity.
I'm keeping the 'wait until near the end of the trip to say something'. I like this advice very much.
posted by Heretical at 10:20 AM on October 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
Best answer: If you're holding out for the end of the week, a slightly OTT housewarming/parting gift after you've departed wouldn't be a bad idea, either. Not a ring, but an overtly romantical flower delivery might prompt a subtle response. The thank you note could be a little suggestive, too. Good luck.
posted by halfbuckaroo at 10:34 AM on October 24, 2011
posted by halfbuckaroo at 10:34 AM on October 24, 2011
I like the moxie of halfbuckaroo's approach, but I actually think an OTT parting gift would be, uh, a little weird. And ambiguous. Unless the flower came with a card that said, 'this means I want to date you', or, if you wanted to go with a Jay-Z line, 'yo put your number on this paper cause I would love to date ya'.
Where I come from, even if you've been flirting pretty heavy, a gift out of nowhere is a weirdly formal, obsequious gesture. And where I come from is Canada, a pretty formal and obsequious country.
Also, if she isn't picking up what you're putting down, as they say, how's she going to respond to flowers? "Haha, I got your flowers, that's so weird, I never get flowers, thanks"? Does she just ignore them altogether? Does she outright reject your move long-distance, over e-mail? That's an awkward fucking situation to be put in. A key element of any good move is leaving someone a graceful out.
The implicit question, then, is, 'if not flowers, then what?'
I've been in this situation, and I say just kiss her.
Well, just try to kiss her. You know, put your face close to her face and see what happens. If it works, then you're kissing, and you feel shiny as car wax, and everything works itself out. If it doesn't work, there's a moment of awkwardness, and then at least everything is out in the open, and totally unambiguous. Maybe there are some half-mumbled apologies, but then life proceeds. It's happened both ways for me. One is wonderful, and the other is totally bearable and at least 60% painless.
Find a nice moment to do this, shortly before you leave, but don't let 'a nice moment' be an excuse not to do it. Like, ideally you shouldn't be in a grocery checkout line. But there doesn't have to be impressionistic piano music or anything. You're alone, you're having fun, you make your face get close to her face. It's that simple.
I don't want to sound like the Dean of Moves, or anything -- this is just advice I wish I'd given myself. I spent years repelling attractive people by sending equivocating and incoherent e-mails, or dodging the subject in Comic Book Guy style, or making flamboyant gestures, or whatever. Learning, or re-learning, to Just Kiss Someone is a vital skill. You might as well get some practice now.
posted by liminalrampaste at 12:50 PM on October 24, 2011 [4 favorites]
Where I come from, even if you've been flirting pretty heavy, a gift out of nowhere is a weirdly formal, obsequious gesture. And where I come from is Canada, a pretty formal and obsequious country.
Also, if she isn't picking up what you're putting down, as they say, how's she going to respond to flowers? "Haha, I got your flowers, that's so weird, I never get flowers, thanks"? Does she just ignore them altogether? Does she outright reject your move long-distance, over e-mail? That's an awkward fucking situation to be put in. A key element of any good move is leaving someone a graceful out.
The implicit question, then, is, 'if not flowers, then what?'
I've been in this situation, and I say just kiss her.
Well, just try to kiss her. You know, put your face close to her face and see what happens. If it works, then you're kissing, and you feel shiny as car wax, and everything works itself out. If it doesn't work, there's a moment of awkwardness, and then at least everything is out in the open, and totally unambiguous. Maybe there are some half-mumbled apologies, but then life proceeds. It's happened both ways for me. One is wonderful, and the other is totally bearable and at least 60% painless.
Find a nice moment to do this, shortly before you leave, but don't let 'a nice moment' be an excuse not to do it. Like, ideally you shouldn't be in a grocery checkout line. But there doesn't have to be impressionistic piano music or anything. You're alone, you're having fun, you make your face get close to her face. It's that simple.
I don't want to sound like the Dean of Moves, or anything -- this is just advice I wish I'd given myself. I spent years repelling attractive people by sending equivocating and incoherent e-mails, or dodging the subject in Comic Book Guy style, or making flamboyant gestures, or whatever. Learning, or re-learning, to Just Kiss Someone is a vital skill. You might as well get some practice now.
posted by liminalrampaste at 12:50 PM on October 24, 2011 [4 favorites]
Um, there's a lot to be said for playing it cool, and sitting back.
Nope. Just ask them. I was one of those whiny 'oh god the Friend Zone' people for ages. Just tell her you're interested. If she's into you, you'll date. If she's not into you, then you'll be fine. Trust me.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 3:27 PM on October 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
Nope. Just ask them. I was one of those whiny 'oh god the Friend Zone' people for ages. Just tell her you're interested. If she's into you, you'll date. If she's not into you, then you'll be fine. Trust me.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 3:27 PM on October 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
Best answer: My previous comment was already too long, but I just want to say one more thing:
A lot of people in this thread suggest gauging the situation very carefully before making a move, to spare your friend any awkwardness. I roundly disagree. I think this is a recipe for despair.
If you wait until you're sure that awkwardness is impossible before making a move, you will never make a move. Don't, like, make a move on someone when you're necessarily going to have to hang out with them for four hours in a canoe afterwards. But don't be afraid of awkwardness. Ultimately, awkwardness is a brief thing, and the regret that follows fear is a long thing.
Also, it's not like this is a stranger that you want to approach on the street -- it's not like you'll be a disgusting lech for demonstrating interest. You're two single people who have been hanging out alone together after corresponding. Awkwardness in that situation is kind of part of the social contract. However you go for it, just go for it.
posted by liminalrampaste at 4:33 PM on October 24, 2011 [4 favorites]
A lot of people in this thread suggest gauging the situation very carefully before making a move, to spare your friend any awkwardness. I roundly disagree. I think this is a recipe for despair.
If you wait until you're sure that awkwardness is impossible before making a move, you will never make a move. Don't, like, make a move on someone when you're necessarily going to have to hang out with them for four hours in a canoe afterwards. But don't be afraid of awkwardness. Ultimately, awkwardness is a brief thing, and the regret that follows fear is a long thing.
Also, it's not like this is a stranger that you want to approach on the street -- it's not like you'll be a disgusting lech for demonstrating interest. You're two single people who have been hanging out alone together after corresponding. Awkwardness in that situation is kind of part of the social contract. However you go for it, just go for it.
posted by liminalrampaste at 4:33 PM on October 24, 2011 [4 favorites]
Making a move actually diffuses the awkwardness. I've told a few friends that I'm attracted to them lately, and they actually hang out with me more now since there's not that weird tension hanging around there.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 4:38 PM on October 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 4:38 PM on October 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
Best answer: The OP has not mentioned whether F is a male or female, and likewise, whether the OP themselves is male or female. People here have been assuming that the OP is male and hence tailoring advice to suit assumed situation.
However, OP, if you are female, any advice to make a move should be somewhat tempered. Please do not kiss him unless you are okay with the fact that he might kiss you back but only because he is a) bored b) not really interested in you but has been a while since he got some female attention c) kinda likes you but not really sure and is certainly in no place to be in a relationship. Not saying that the guy is a jerk, but sometimes men can be generally more clueless about their feelings and would be more willing to do short flings at the expense of friendships. (Women are clueless too, but that's a whole different set of attitudes that we won't get into).
With that, do all of the following:
a) flirt with him
b) ask him whether he would be interested in the possibility of your friendship going further
c) do not kiss him unless answer to (b) is enthusiastically positive.
posted by moiraine at 4:52 PM on October 24, 2011
However, OP, if you are female, any advice to make a move should be somewhat tempered. Please do not kiss him unless you are okay with the fact that he might kiss you back but only because he is a) bored b) not really interested in you but has been a while since he got some female attention c) kinda likes you but not really sure and is certainly in no place to be in a relationship. Not saying that the guy is a jerk, but sometimes men can be generally more clueless about their feelings and would be more willing to do short flings at the expense of friendships. (Women are clueless too, but that's a whole different set of attitudes that we won't get into).
With that, do all of the following:
a) flirt with him
b) ask him whether he would be interested in the possibility of your friendship going further
c) do not kiss him unless answer to (b) is enthusiastically positive.
posted by moiraine at 4:52 PM on October 24, 2011
Best answer: If you're holding out for the end of the week, a slightly OTT housewarming/parting gift after you've departed wouldn't be a bad idea, either. Not a ring, but an overtly romantical flower delivery might prompt a subtle response. The thank you note could be a little suggestive, too.
I'm a female and think this would not work well with me. If someone hung out with me like this and I didn't have feelings for them, I would probably already be wondering if there were some mixed signals floating around. Maybe I would feel relieved when he left, on one level, without anything happening. Getting flowers at this point would make me feel like something had been going on that I wasn't aware of (which makes me uncomfortable), like there was a misunderstanding (uncomfortable) or like I didn't understand my friend / the situation / our relationship (uncomfortable because we've just spent weeks together).
If I were interested, I would still probably not feel completely at ease unless things had pretty clearly led up to the gesture. If they hadn't, I would think, "It seemed like we got each other, but I guess we disconnected here." I don't think that's your goal...
I might be easily discomfitted, but there it stands.
I need to give some actual advice in this answer, so I guess I would say to analyze what you can gain and what you're willing to lose. If you don't want to lose the friendship, don't move. If you think you may as well make the move because you're living far away anyway, then try it. etc. Maybe you can do long-distance correspondence. It depends on your timeframe and what you're willing to lose.
posted by ramenopres at 5:15 PM on October 24, 2011
I'm a female and think this would not work well with me. If someone hung out with me like this and I didn't have feelings for them, I would probably already be wondering if there were some mixed signals floating around. Maybe I would feel relieved when he left, on one level, without anything happening. Getting flowers at this point would make me feel like something had been going on that I wasn't aware of (which makes me uncomfortable), like there was a misunderstanding (uncomfortable) or like I didn't understand my friend / the situation / our relationship (uncomfortable because we've just spent weeks together).
If I were interested, I would still probably not feel completely at ease unless things had pretty clearly led up to the gesture. If they hadn't, I would think, "It seemed like we got each other, but I guess we disconnected here." I don't think that's your goal...
I might be easily discomfitted, but there it stands.
I need to give some actual advice in this answer, so I guess I would say to analyze what you can gain and what you're willing to lose. If you don't want to lose the friendship, don't move. If you think you may as well make the move because you're living far away anyway, then try it. etc. Maybe you can do long-distance correspondence. It depends on your timeframe and what you're willing to lose.
posted by ramenopres at 5:15 PM on October 24, 2011
*I actually think my last paragraph is crap, so feel free to disregard it. Next time I'll put some more thought into it! It just seemed important to respond to the "large gesture" idea.
posted by ramenopres at 5:17 PM on October 24, 2011
posted by ramenopres at 5:17 PM on October 24, 2011
There is a quote of Quentin Crisp that seems to apply to your situation: "The continued propinquity of another human being cramps the style after a time unless that person is somebody you think you love. Then the burden becomes intolerable at once." I imagine it was said tongue in cheek, but like most humorous comments, there is some truth in it, so best to sort things out sooner rather than later. Nevertheless, as many say, best to wait either until the last day or when you've actually left, and then just tell F how you feel. Honesty works well, and has the advantage of being simple. It's not weird to feel this way about a friend, but after a long friendship it's often difficult to change over to a loving one. However, it happened to me once, so I know it's possible. Good Luck.
posted by nickji at 12:13 AM on October 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by nickji at 12:13 AM on October 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Update: A night in was had with movie-watching and some serious cuddling on the couch. Just got home, and there may have been a kiss before I left. Nothing earth-shattering, but F didn't run in terror and lock the door (and F's still talking to me!) so I think things went well.
The advice on waiting to the end of the trip was very good, I think. I prefer to take things slower anyway, however mad that might make my hindbrain in the process...
posted by Heretical at 1:28 PM on October 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
The advice on waiting to the end of the trip was very good, I think. I prefer to take things slower anyway, however mad that might make my hindbrain in the process...
posted by Heretical at 1:28 PM on October 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
Yay! You must follow up on this post and let us know how things are going!
posted by softlord at 8:26 PM on October 30, 2011
posted by softlord at 8:26 PM on October 30, 2011
Response by poster: Someone mentioned I should update.
Another trip was taken over the holidays for family time and fun.
... And it's been a long while since I was so comfortable sleeping next to someone else. F's kinda shy about relationships so we haven't Had A Talk about the logistics of an LDR, but we do chat off and on and I badgered F to come visit me in springtime for a hiking trip. Didn't take much badgering.
All in all, things are looking promising.
(good kisser too. *cough*)
posted by Heretical at 7:49 PM on January 26, 2012 [3 favorites]
Another trip was taken over the holidays for family time and fun.
... And it's been a long while since I was so comfortable sleeping next to someone else. F's kinda shy about relationships so we haven't Had A Talk about the logistics of an LDR, but we do chat off and on and I badgered F to come visit me in springtime for a hiking trip. Didn't take much badgering.
All in all, things are looking promising.
(good kisser too. *cough*)
posted by Heretical at 7:49 PM on January 26, 2012 [3 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
....all the time. Is there something missing from the question? Like, you're both straight and the same gender or something? Plenty of relationships started out as just friends first.
If you're flirting and F isn't flirting back, F probably doesn't think about you in that way, or your flirting is way too subtle.
posted by missmagenta at 2:08 AM on October 24, 2011 [3 favorites]