Is that how they say it down under?
October 17, 2011 7:40 PM Subscribe
An acquaintance of mine said, "He's fixated on that faggot. . .I bet he's afraid that after a few drinks. . ." I was shocked at the use of that word, then confused by the ending implication.* Is my Australian friend homophobic or is this a cultural difference in word connotation?
*I presume that he was mocking his friend for being afraid of a gay person and implying that his friend in fact has homosexual tendencies, which seems to me to say that he is not homophobic. I suppose there could be some other interpretation of it though.
*I presume that he was mocking his friend for being afraid of a gay person and implying that his friend in fact has homosexual tendencies, which seems to me to say that he is not homophobic. I suppose there could be some other interpretation of it though.
An Australian here: use of the word faggot in Australia is extremely offensive and homophobic (to the extent that it might be a precursor to physical violence against the gay man in question.)
The only exception would be one openly gay man using it to another, reclaiming the word.
posted by Year of meteors at 7:46 PM on October 17, 2011 [6 favorites]
The only exception would be one openly gay man using it to another, reclaiming the word.
posted by Year of meteors at 7:46 PM on October 17, 2011 [6 favorites]
making fun of a gay person and then using someone being gay as an insult...
there doesn't seem like a lot of gray area there.
even if you take out the word choice, to use "might be gay" as an insult, you think being gay is insulting.
posted by nadawi at 7:46 PM on October 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
there doesn't seem like a lot of gray area there.
even if you take out the word choice, to use "might be gay" as an insult, you think being gay is insulting.
posted by nadawi at 7:46 PM on October 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
He only gets a pass if he was referring to a bassoon.
posted by coriolisdave at 7:47 PM on October 17, 2011 [9 favorites]
posted by coriolisdave at 7:47 PM on October 17, 2011 [9 favorites]
That is a tremendously offensive thing to say. Both the choice of words and the implication are homophobic. I'm Australian and this is the kind of comment I would gladly end a friendship over.
posted by embrangled at 7:50 PM on October 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by embrangled at 7:50 PM on October 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
Yeah I'm Australian. It's not okay and is generally more of a hate filled term, whereas the word "gay" used as a noun to describe something uncool or otherwise not good,, is used often without thought, is often not intended to be offensive (again I'm not condoning it, but it is used very commonly in this way in Aus).
posted by nothing too obvious at 7:53 PM on October 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by nothing too obvious at 7:53 PM on October 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
Australian here: unless it was used ironically by a gay dude, I would consider the use of the word 'faggot' extremely offensive and homophobic, much like following the implication that gay men will prey on any available male, and that being gay is intrinsically bad.
tl;dr - not a specific special snowflake Australian use. Your friend's comment was homophobic and derogatory.
He only gets a pass if he was referring to a bassoon.
Or a bundle of sticks, used for kindling.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:53 PM on October 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
tl;dr - not a specific special snowflake Australian use. Your friend's comment was homophobic and derogatory.
He only gets a pass if he was referring to a bassoon.
Or a bundle of sticks, used for kindling.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:53 PM on October 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
Another Aussie datapoint; I've lived in three states and faggot is unacceptable in all them, albeit depressingly common in many circles. Not cool. Homophobic. Often heard in areas with high concentrations of Southern Cross tattoos.
posted by smoke at 7:59 PM on October 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by smoke at 7:59 PM on October 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
Is my Australian friend homophobic or is this a cultural difference in word connotation?
Australians pride themselves on being offensive (sexist, racist, etc). If you get offended by it, you lose.
THAT SAID, Australians also seem pretty gay friendly and while I've seen lots of casual racism I haven't seen as much casual homophobia.
Before it comes up, if someone calls you the c-word yes, it it is a compliment.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 8:00 PM on October 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
Australians pride themselves on being offensive (sexist, racist, etc). If you get offended by it, you lose.
THAT SAID, Australians also seem pretty gay friendly and while I've seen lots of casual racism I haven't seen as much casual homophobia.
Before it comes up, if someone calls you the c-word yes, it it is a compliment.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 8:00 PM on October 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
Just because someone says something that sounds homophobic, does not mean they are actually a homophobe.
He sounds damn insensitive though.
posted by windbox at 8:02 PM on October 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
He sounds damn insensitive though.
posted by windbox at 8:02 PM on October 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks for the prompt responses.
This person is not really a friend, but someone I have to interact with at my job on a weekly basis.
What's the best approach for dealing with this kind of talk? Do you just focus on the pejorative word use or talk about the significance of it?
posted by abirdinthehand at 8:22 PM on October 17, 2011
This person is not really a friend, but someone I have to interact with at my job on a weekly basis.
What's the best approach for dealing with this kind of talk? Do you just focus on the pejorative word use or talk about the significance of it?
posted by abirdinthehand at 8:22 PM on October 17, 2011
'Faggot' is an epithet. No context, no excuses.
To clarify LiB's comment: 'cunt' in Australia is usually as abusive and offensive as it is in the US and UK (and Ensler's play has the same meaning here) but in certain circumstances, as vernacular, is interchangeable for 'person' or more often, 'man', without necessarily having a positive or negative connotation, or even a reference to genitals. For instance, your barrister might be a smart cunt, the judge a dopey cunt, the character witness in your favour a top bloke and a good cunt, the police a bunch of sly cunts and those twelve quiet cunts over there would be the jury. But that's not what's going on here.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 8:24 PM on October 17, 2011 [11 favorites]
To clarify LiB's comment: 'cunt' in Australia is usually as abusive and offensive as it is in the US and UK (and Ensler's play has the same meaning here) but in certain circumstances, as vernacular, is interchangeable for 'person' or more often, 'man', without necessarily having a positive or negative connotation, or even a reference to genitals. For instance, your barrister might be a smart cunt, the judge a dopey cunt, the character witness in your favour a top bloke and a good cunt, the police a bunch of sly cunts and those twelve quiet cunts over there would be the jury. But that's not what's going on here.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 8:24 PM on October 17, 2011 [11 favorites]
Your acquaintance is a homophobic asshole and you are welcome to tell him I said so.
posted by elizardbits at 8:36 PM on October 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by elizardbits at 8:36 PM on October 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
He's a homophobic ass., My mother hates any and all swearing and offensive language and usually uses a suprised (as in I can't believe my ears) "Excuse me?" with deadly effect to make people reword things around her. It could also be the raised eyebrow and motherly death stare that makes that work.
On a side note the word Bugger has no homosexual overtones and is used pretty much like you'd use the word damn.
Also bastard is often used the way Fiasco da Gama mentions the use of cunt. You can however usually use bastard in mixed company, unlike cunt which can be a bit of a minefield.
posted by wwax at 8:44 PM on October 17, 2011
On a side note the word Bugger has no homosexual overtones and is used pretty much like you'd use the word damn.
Also bastard is often used the way Fiasco da Gama mentions the use of cunt. You can however usually use bastard in mixed company, unlike cunt which can be a bit of a minefield.
posted by wwax at 8:44 PM on October 17, 2011
What's the best approach for dealing with this kind of talk? Do you just focus on the pejorative word use or talk about the significance of it?
I have found this Jay Smooth video - How to tell people they sound racist - to give some very good analogous advice. Focus on the action and conduct, not the person. Say "that thing you said was pretty homophobic", not "YOU ARE A HOMOPHOBE".
It's quite possible that his use of the epithet was unthinking. The thing about casual prejudice is that it is subtle and insidious. Perhaps, when he actually thinks about it, he actually has nothing against gay people - he may be unlikely to refuse to serve a gay man, or insult one to their face. But he's drawn the link in his mind that gay=gross=bad, and now unthinkably accepts it as a truth, without examination. This doesn't necessarily mean that he's a bigot - he might just be ignorant and lacking some self awareness.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:46 PM on October 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
I have found this Jay Smooth video - How to tell people they sound racist - to give some very good analogous advice. Focus on the action and conduct, not the person. Say "that thing you said was pretty homophobic", not "YOU ARE A HOMOPHOBE".
It's quite possible that his use of the epithet was unthinking. The thing about casual prejudice is that it is subtle and insidious. Perhaps, when he actually thinks about it, he actually has nothing against gay people - he may be unlikely to refuse to serve a gay man, or insult one to their face. But he's drawn the link in his mind that gay=gross=bad, and now unthinkably accepts it as a truth, without examination. This doesn't necessarily mean that he's a bigot - he might just be ignorant and lacking some self awareness.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:46 PM on October 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
I think an approach that works well is the 'benefit of the doubt'. What I mean is, assume he's not intending to be homophobic, and would be horrified to be seen.as such. This way you're just giving him a heads up as to how he's coming across. Something like "hey dude, I know you're not homophobic or anything, but using terms like that can really offend people and make you sound like you are. I understand you're just using it as a figure of speech but I just wanted to make sure you were aware of it".
posted by nothing too obvious at 8:54 PM on October 17, 2011
posted by nothing too obvious at 8:54 PM on October 17, 2011
"What's the best approach for dealing with this kind of talk? Do you just focus on the pejorative word use or talk about the significance of it?"
I usually snap, "Don't use that kind of language around me. It's offensive." or "I'm not interested in hearing that word. Don't do it again." or "I BEG your pardon!" (in the innocent offended dignity voice)
It's not the most intelligent, helpful, or educational response, I guess, but what works best is what you can get out of your mouth, and when I'm that offended, that's what pops out. Nobody's ever repeated a slur around me a second time, though -- you'll be surprised how far simple social disapproval goes; most people are too shy or shocked or polite to condemn someone else's behavior on the spot unless that person is their child. Just being shamed by being called on it, even in a one-to-one conversation, makes most people stop.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:01 PM on October 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
I usually snap, "Don't use that kind of language around me. It's offensive." or "I'm not interested in hearing that word. Don't do it again." or "I BEG your pardon!" (in the innocent offended dignity voice)
It's not the most intelligent, helpful, or educational response, I guess, but what works best is what you can get out of your mouth, and when I'm that offended, that's what pops out. Nobody's ever repeated a slur around me a second time, though -- you'll be surprised how far simple social disapproval goes; most people are too shy or shocked or polite to condemn someone else's behavior on the spot unless that person is their child. Just being shamed by being called on it, even in a one-to-one conversation, makes most people stop.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:01 PM on October 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
Bear in mind that the Australians answering here on Metafilter would skew towards the educated, firmly middle class, inner city end of the spectrum, and for the most part never venture far from Williamsburg-like enclaves like Newtown, Fitzroy, Northbridge, Battery Point or Ipswich.
There is a possibility - and I'm only calling it a possibility - that your friend is from a lower sociodemographic part of town where 'faggot' is used in general conversation without much thought about its offensiveness; a bit like how teenagers today use 'gay' for what used to be 'lame'.
Your best response is to ask if he's using the term because he's homophobic, or is he just a bogan?
posted by UbuRoivas at 9:04 PM on October 17, 2011 [9 favorites]
There is a possibility - and I'm only calling it a possibility - that your friend is from a lower sociodemographic part of town where 'faggot' is used in general conversation without much thought about its offensiveness; a bit like how teenagers today use 'gay' for what used to be 'lame'.
Your best response is to ask if he's using the term because he's homophobic, or is he just a bogan?
posted by UbuRoivas at 9:04 PM on October 17, 2011 [9 favorites]
There really isn't enough information from your partial anecdote to make a determination about the speaker one way or the other.
posted by moxiedoll at 9:11 PM on October 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by moxiedoll at 9:11 PM on October 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
So your confusion, as I understand it, is that he seems to be contradicting himself:
1. he is using an offensive term for gay people (and I agree with the other Australia-dwellers above that it is very offensive)
2. he is mocking his friend for being scared of (being raped? hit on? by) gay people
These don't have to be contradictory. For plenty of homophobes, being hit on by someone of your own sex is seen as immensely degrading, and they think that if you are a 'real man' and masculine enough, it would never happen. So the fact that his friend is worried about it happening makes his friend a bit of a wuss, and it maybe even calls his sexuality into question. That's what's being mocked, not irrational homophobic fears.
posted by lollusc at 9:55 PM on October 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
1. he is using an offensive term for gay people (and I agree with the other Australia-dwellers above that it is very offensive)
2. he is mocking his friend for being scared of (being raped? hit on? by) gay people
These don't have to be contradictory. For plenty of homophobes, being hit on by someone of your own sex is seen as immensely degrading, and they think that if you are a 'real man' and masculine enough, it would never happen. So the fact that his friend is worried about it happening makes his friend a bit of a wuss, and it maybe even calls his sexuality into question. That's what's being mocked, not irrational homophobic fears.
posted by lollusc at 9:55 PM on October 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
(In case it's not clear, I am saying that your Australian acquaintance is an offensive homophobe himself and has ignorant and unexamined beliefs about masculinity in general.)
posted by lollusc at 9:57 PM on October 17, 2011
posted by lollusc at 9:57 PM on October 17, 2011
Ugh. Homophobic, ignorant and tone deaf all at the same time! What a lovely combination.
Anyway, that's a teachable moment, right there. If you have to work with the guy, you can veil your contempt for his attitude a little, maybe: "Wow. I don't get shocked often, but I am now. I guess you didn't know, but FYI that's an incredibly offensive word. It's this antiquated term from back when people were pretty ignorant about sexuality and were prejudiced against gay people. Good thing I was here with you; someone who didn't know better might have assumed you were homophobic!"
posted by misha at 11:41 PM on October 17, 2011
Anyway, that's a teachable moment, right there. If you have to work with the guy, you can veil your contempt for his attitude a little, maybe: "Wow. I don't get shocked often, but I am now. I guess you didn't know, but FYI that's an incredibly offensive word. It's this antiquated term from back when people were pretty ignorant about sexuality and were prejudiced against gay people. Good thing I was here with you; someone who didn't know better might have assumed you were homophobic!"
posted by misha at 11:41 PM on October 17, 2011
Your best response is to ask if he's using the term because he's homophobic, or is he just a bogan?
I'm a kiwi bogan rather than an Aussie one, but if someone used that term in that context in the small, backwards, low socioeconomic bogan town I'm from it would be because they're being homophobic. Yeah, people generally are more homophobic there than amongst the well educated city people I spend time with as a grown up, but that doesn't make it any less offensive or on purpose. Maybe Australia is totally different, but my experience so far is that it's not really.
posted by shelleycat at 12:21 AM on October 18, 2011 [2 favorites]
I'm a kiwi bogan rather than an Aussie one, but if someone used that term in that context in the small, backwards, low socioeconomic bogan town I'm from it would be because they're being homophobic. Yeah, people generally are more homophobic there than amongst the well educated city people I spend time with as a grown up, but that doesn't make it any less offensive or on purpose. Maybe Australia is totally different, but my experience so far is that it's not really.
posted by shelleycat at 12:21 AM on October 18, 2011 [2 favorites]
I'm utterly with Ubu here. That can just be bogan talk and not deliberate homophobia. It is, of course, utterly unacceptable language here. BUT there are, naturally, places in Australian society where having lovely and loved "faggot" friends is not unheard of. I've come across it within my more "diverse" acquaintance circles... not particularly well educated...rough diamondy types. But even still they're people who know it's not a word they should use, but it's a lazy slang and conceivably affectionate.
Lovecraft has a dim view if Australia, he frequently misses the nuances, but he also has a point sometimes. Some people might claim you were being precious if you objected to the word. I'd tell the cnut to go fnck
himself though.
And I must absolutely reiterate...it is a totally unacceptable word. What words gay folk want to reclaim is up to them, as with African Americans and women. But if you're not in those clubs, you don't get to use their stuff.
posted by taff at 1:31 AM on October 18, 2011 [2 favorites]
Lovecraft has a dim view if Australia, he frequently misses the nuances, but he also has a point sometimes. Some people might claim you were being precious if you objected to the word. I'd tell the cnut to go fnck
himself though.
And I must absolutely reiterate...it is a totally unacceptable word. What words gay folk want to reclaim is up to them, as with African Americans and women. But if you're not in those clubs, you don't get to use their stuff.
posted by taff at 1:31 AM on October 18, 2011 [2 favorites]
I should add...in case it looks like I missed the greater point. Of course the net result of that language is perpetuation of homophobia. But that's the subtlety that I think is lost on some bogans....sort of the, "But WAH, some of my best friends are x". They really don't get it.
posted by taff at 1:38 AM on October 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by taff at 1:38 AM on October 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
My educated, middle-class (but socially conservative) Aussie boyfriend fondly refers to a gay friend of his as "that fudgepacker" and was surprised when little ol' New England liberal me was horrified. Even though he sort of uses it "ironically" there's definitely an undercurrent of homophobia. He considers it okay (and has even used the word around his friend) though he knows in an absolute sense it's a very offensive word. I'm going to go with taff here, he thinks it's affectionate but seems a little blind to how awful it is. I'm guessing it's the same with your buddy.
posted by olinerd at 2:59 AM on October 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by olinerd at 2:59 AM on October 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
The Aussies I know who bandy the word "faggot" around are not homophobic. I'm thinking in particular of one guy (whose brother is gay, if that's relevant) who would think it absurd that anyone would think him homophobic, but who has an 'edgy' sense of humour. He uses a lot of words that could in other contexts be regarded as racist, sexist or homophobic when he feels confident that the people he is with know him well enough to know he's just trying to be funny.
posted by nowonmai at 6:24 AM on October 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by nowonmai at 6:24 AM on October 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
Nowonmai, the difference there is that your friend is using the terms ironically, and feels comfortable doing it because he knows the people he is with so well. He's confident they know who he really is and will obviously get that he is not being sincere, but actually making fun of the mindset that would actually use those terms.
The OP's case is completely different. He hardly knows this work guy. They aren't on the kind of terms where the guy making the comment should feel comfortable enough to joke around like that.
posted by misha at 7:59 AM on October 18, 2011
The OP's case is completely different. He hardly knows this work guy. They aren't on the kind of terms where the guy making the comment should feel comfortable enough to joke around like that.
posted by misha at 7:59 AM on October 18, 2011
I've seen people bandying the term faggot around in a way that's supposed to be edgy or affectionate. But when it's coupled with "I bet he's afraid that after a few drinks." .. yeah, no. The whole context and content of this comment, including that it was in conversation with a business colleague rather than a close friend, is just lazy homophobia. Frankly, even if it wasn't meant that way by the guy it's unacceptable to talk like that in a business context, and I'd definitely do a double take and make a straight-faced comment about it being offensive even on my most bogan days.
posted by shelleycat at 9:54 AM on October 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by shelleycat at 9:54 AM on October 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Thanks everyone. I guess I've just lived in one liberal bubble after another, so I'm learning how to deal with these things. This was an extreme case but I find myself continually running into these types of comments on a less outright offensive level this past week.
Another person at my work saw a pink car and he said that better be a woman in there, if it's a guy. . .chuckle chuckle. Which is ridiculous on multiple levels. Or just a subtle disapproval-- from people I genuinely like! I said "well, they're just people who happen to be attracted to and fall in love with others of the same gender, who cares unless you're trying to get with someone, what their orientation is" - and the room just went silent.
I'm straight, but it is so alienating and disheartening to witness these things, even without pejorative words it's still bigotry.
posted by abirdinthehand at 1:56 PM on October 21, 2011 [2 favorites]
Another person at my work saw a pink car and he said that better be a woman in there, if it's a guy. . .chuckle chuckle. Which is ridiculous on multiple levels. Or just a subtle disapproval-- from people I genuinely like! I said "well, they're just people who happen to be attracted to and fall in love with others of the same gender, who cares unless you're trying to get with someone, what their orientation is" - and the room just went silent.
I'm straight, but it is so alienating and disheartening to witness these things, even without pejorative words it's still bigotry.
posted by abirdinthehand at 1:56 PM on October 21, 2011 [2 favorites]
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You don't get a pass on using 'faggot' because you're Australian.
posted by pompomtom at 7:45 PM on October 17, 2011 [12 favorites]