Asbestos, popcorn ceilings, and family politics!
October 13, 2011 7:56 PM Subscribe
The apartment we're moving into in a few weeks has confirmed asbestos popcorn ceilings throughout. The landlord (who also happens to be my mother-in-law ... yay family complexities!) wants to remove the ceilings before we move in, but isn't interested in hiring an asbestos abatement specialist -- she's just looking for the cheapest price from a handyman. If the removal isn't performed properly, are we at any risk living there? Should we insist on a registered asbestos contractor?
We're in Los Angeles and we have a two year-old. We're doing other work on the place after the ceilings are removed -- pergo in the bedrooms, paint throughout, if that matters at all. My mother-in-law is understandably price sensitive, although she can afford the more expensive option. Before looking into this, she had never heard of asbestos.
We're in Los Angeles and we have a two year-old. We're doing other work on the place after the ceilings are removed -- pergo in the bedrooms, paint throughout, if that matters at all. My mother-in-law is understandably price sensitive, although she can afford the more expensive option. Before looking into this, she had never heard of asbestos.
Never heard of asbestos? No offense but your mother in law has been living under a rock for the past thirty years.
Here's the deal: asbestos fibers float in the air. When you and your kid breathe those in they lodge in your lungs. Which causes problems.
That's why you need a very expensive remediation process.
Your mother in law should be prepared to shell out a lot of cash to have this properly taken care of.
And, frankly, you three ought to find somewhere else to live. A person who claims never to have heard of asbestos is no person who should be a landlord.
posted by dfriedman at 8:01 PM on October 13, 2011 [28 favorites]
Here's the deal: asbestos fibers float in the air. When you and your kid breathe those in they lodge in your lungs. Which causes problems.
That's why you need a very expensive remediation process.
Your mother in law should be prepared to shell out a lot of cash to have this properly taken care of.
And, frankly, you three ought to find somewhere else to live. A person who claims never to have heard of asbestos is no person who should be a landlord.
posted by dfriedman at 8:01 PM on October 13, 2011 [28 favorites]
Also, with this information I think you have some sort of duty to let whomever works on it to know what they are exposing themselves to.
posted by raccoon409 at 8:04 PM on October 13, 2011 [13 favorites]
posted by raccoon409 at 8:04 PM on October 13, 2011 [13 favorites]
You are at substantially more risk if it's removed improperly than if it's left alone.
Asbestos is relatively harmless when it's contained in building materials (insulation, siding, linoleum, etc). When it's cut or displaced it raises dust, and that's where the danger is. Scraping or tearing down a popcorn ceiling is about the worst thing I can think of as far as raising dust, so I would insist on a remediation contractor.
posted by true at 8:05 PM on October 13, 2011 [18 favorites]
Asbestos is relatively harmless when it's contained in building materials (insulation, siding, linoleum, etc). When it's cut or displaced it raises dust, and that's where the danger is. Scraping or tearing down a popcorn ceiling is about the worst thing I can think of as far as raising dust, so I would insist on a remediation contractor.
posted by true at 8:05 PM on October 13, 2011 [18 favorites]
I would venture to say that, in just about all locations, it is simply illegal to try to remove asbestos materials in the way that she proposes to do it. Check with the city health department and see what they have to say about the issue.
posted by megatherium at 8:07 PM on October 13, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by megatherium at 8:07 PM on October 13, 2011 [3 favorites]
I'm in Los Angeles and used to deal with apartments. Your mother-in-law is Kinda insane.
- Handymen in LA are usually not at all qualified to do anything. Really. It's so so hard to find anyone with real experience and knowledge.
- The ceiling is safer untouched. The handyman will not do the job right and leave particulate matter behind putting you and your family at risk.
- you could, like, report her and the city would come out and test the air quality after a poor job was done, and oh man! Talk about family drama.
Previouslyon MetaFilter regarding popcorn asbestos ceilings. I don't remember the whole thread, but I do remember some folks with far more experience than me popped in there with great info, so be sure to read the whole thing carefully!
posted by jbenben at 8:08 PM on October 13, 2011 [2 favorites]
- Handymen in LA are usually not at all qualified to do anything. Really. It's so so hard to find anyone with real experience and knowledge.
- The ceiling is safer untouched. The handyman will not do the job right and leave particulate matter behind putting you and your family at risk.
- you could, like, report her and the city would come out and test the air quality after a poor job was done, and oh man! Talk about family drama.
Previouslyon MetaFilter regarding popcorn asbestos ceilings. I don't remember the whole thread, but I do remember some folks with far more experience than me popped in there with great info, so be sure to read the whole thing carefully!
posted by jbenben at 8:08 PM on October 13, 2011 [2 favorites]
raccoon409 makes another very very good point I wanted to mention but forgot.
posted by jbenben at 8:12 PM on October 13, 2011
posted by jbenben at 8:12 PM on October 13, 2011
I would certainly not let my two year old live there.
posted by dpx.mfx at 8:25 PM on October 13, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by dpx.mfx at 8:25 PM on October 13, 2011 [3 favorites]
Are you going to be paying market rate rents? If so, this is no "deal". Let her rent it to someone else. If it were me, I would leave the ceiling as is and paint over it. If you are getting a deal, that is paying less than market rate for the apartment, offer to pay a little more in exchange for her doing it right.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 8:29 PM on October 13, 2011
posted by JohnnyGunn at 8:29 PM on October 13, 2011
Do not move in unless you have absolute proof it was done correctly. Do not accept your MIL's say-so on this; insist on receipts and talk to the contractor who does the work. It is literally insane to move into such a place without being absolutely 100% sure that the work was done competently and to standard. Mesothelioma is a miserable, painful and horrifying way to die, and you do not want that for yourself or your child.
Others have mentioned that it would be safer to leave the ceiling intact, paint over it, et cetera, but I wouldn't move in under any circumstance that didn't involve a certified professional fixing the problem.
posted by Sternmeyer at 8:36 PM on October 13, 2011
Others have mentioned that it would be safer to leave the ceiling intact, paint over it, et cetera, but I wouldn't move in under any circumstance that didn't involve a certified professional fixing the problem.
posted by Sternmeyer at 8:36 PM on October 13, 2011
> Mesothelioma is a miserable, painful and horrifying way to die, and you do not want that for yourself or your child.
This a thousand times over. Are you 100% positive that the handy-man will properly remove all the materials and perform 100% dust mitigation? Are you willing to bet the rest of you and your child's life on that?
This seems like a total no-brainer.
posted by introp at 8:38 PM on October 13, 2011 [2 favorites]
This a thousand times over. Are you 100% positive that the handy-man will properly remove all the materials and perform 100% dust mitigation? Are you willing to bet the rest of you and your child's life on that?
This seems like a total no-brainer.
posted by introp at 8:38 PM on October 13, 2011 [2 favorites]
http://www.safe-asbestos-removal.com/asbestos-exposure-fifth-wave.php
and
http://www.asbestosdiseases.org.au/asbestosinfo/asbestos_community.htm
Yes, some people do live under rocks. But they should be dragged out and educated.
posted by titanium_geek at 8:41 PM on October 13, 2011 [1 favorite]
and
http://www.asbestosdiseases.org.au/asbestosinfo/asbestos_community.htm
Yes, some people do live under rocks. But they should be dragged out and educated.
posted by titanium_geek at 8:41 PM on October 13, 2011 [1 favorite]
OK, going against the flow here.
It may be, and probably is illegal, removing the way she's talking about doing it.
I worked for several years as a paralegal on numerous asbestos related cases. Firestone was the biggest of them. I read literally tens of thousands of pages, largely scientific studies about asbestos. My takeaway was that asbestos is not any more dangerous than fiberglass.
Think about that. Most of the very same evidence exists against fiberglass and yet most people would never think twice about moving into a space that has it.
For me and my kids, I wouldn't bat an eye. Asbestos hazards are ridiculously overblown for legal purposes. You obviously get to choose for yourself. Most houses have asbestos or fiberglass, it is part of living in the U.S., and obsessing about it doesn't change that fact.
Another point. Removing the ceiling tile is definitely worse than just leaving it. Those fibers stick around in the air for a long time, whether it was done by a "licensed contractor" or not. Most abatement contractors use the cheapest possible contractors who don't have a clue about proper negative air containment solutions in any case. Really, if you'd read as many descriptions of the crazy details of major-league abatements as me, you'd be just as cynical about the make-money-scheme as I am.
Long story short, nah. Don't worry about it. The chances are really incredibly low that you or your kids will ever suffer any problems from asbestos. Most problems are suffered by the low paid immigrants who do actual abatement.
I do predict that within 10 years we'll see a huge public outcry against fiberglass, with similarly laughable results. No one will be better after billions spent, but many will feel that they dodged a bullet.
posted by Invoke at 8:46 PM on October 13, 2011 [2 favorites]
It may be, and probably is illegal, removing the way she's talking about doing it.
I worked for several years as a paralegal on numerous asbestos related cases. Firestone was the biggest of them. I read literally tens of thousands of pages, largely scientific studies about asbestos. My takeaway was that asbestos is not any more dangerous than fiberglass.
Think about that. Most of the very same evidence exists against fiberglass and yet most people would never think twice about moving into a space that has it.
For me and my kids, I wouldn't bat an eye. Asbestos hazards are ridiculously overblown for legal purposes. You obviously get to choose for yourself. Most houses have asbestos or fiberglass, it is part of living in the U.S., and obsessing about it doesn't change that fact.
Another point. Removing the ceiling tile is definitely worse than just leaving it. Those fibers stick around in the air for a long time, whether it was done by a "licensed contractor" or not. Most abatement contractors use the cheapest possible contractors who don't have a clue about proper negative air containment solutions in any case. Really, if you'd read as many descriptions of the crazy details of major-league abatements as me, you'd be just as cynical about the make-money-scheme as I am.
Long story short, nah. Don't worry about it. The chances are really incredibly low that you or your kids will ever suffer any problems from asbestos. Most problems are suffered by the low paid immigrants who do actual abatement.
I do predict that within 10 years we'll see a huge public outcry against fiberglass, with similarly laughable results. No one will be better after billions spent, but many will feel that they dodged a bullet.
posted by Invoke at 8:46 PM on October 13, 2011 [2 favorites]
California Code of Regulations, Title 8, Subchapter 4, Article 4, section 1529.
posted by Ironmouth at 9:15 PM on October 13, 2011
posted by Ironmouth at 9:15 PM on October 13, 2011
"Most problems are suffered by the low paid immigrants who do actual abatement."
OP, this is not something you want any part of. It's unethical. Also, as someone in LA who deals with low paid immigrants regularly, man does this black market workforce we have here piss me off.
From that previous question about asbestos popcorn ceilings I linked to above, it seems clear you can get independent testing of the air quality. Which you should do whether you remove the ceiling or not.
You state that the asbestos is confirmed. How do you know?
In that previous question, pie ninja wrote some great advice, but I thought this most helpful, especially as you evaluate abatement specialists...
"The fact that the abatement company inspector didn't take actual, physical samples and send them to the lab is very hinky, although not necessarily a scam. I can think of two non-scam explanations for that: One, maybe he's worked in this building before (have any of your prospective neighbors dealt with this issue?), and he thinks he can visually ID the popcorn. Two, maybe he has some, ah, less than good beliefs about his ability to recognize asbestos visually. (I've worked with long-time ACM guys -- from other places, not from my company -- who very sincerely believe that 9x9 tile is ALWAYS asbestos and 12x12 NEVER is. Thing is, they're wrong -- I've sampled 12x12 and had it come up asbestos myself. And they do abatement on that assumption, rather than sampling. Those are the guys to avoid. If you ask an abatement contractor what he'd do with 12x12 floor tile and he tells you it's never asbestos, I'd avoid him.)"
Nthing it might be safest if you seal it and don't touch it, providing the air quality checks out prior to making that decision.
We had asbestos wrapped around pipes in our basement and were told by a professional that it was safer not to touch it. It never bothered me knowing it was down there. Then again, that was below us and we didn't spend a whole lotta time down there. Not sure how I would feel if it were over my head, tho.
-------
Mostly I'm back to urge you to (a) read that question and thread in its entirety, (b) urge your MIL not to use a handyman for a multitude of reasons, and (c) make sure you know you can get independent testing.
My best as you navigate this issue. I hope it all turns out well.
posted by jbenben at 9:22 PM on October 13, 2011 [2 favorites]
OP, this is not something you want any part of. It's unethical. Also, as someone in LA who deals with low paid immigrants regularly, man does this black market workforce we have here piss me off.
From that previous question about asbestos popcorn ceilings I linked to above, it seems clear you can get independent testing of the air quality. Which you should do whether you remove the ceiling or not.
You state that the asbestos is confirmed. How do you know?
In that previous question, pie ninja wrote some great advice, but I thought this most helpful, especially as you evaluate abatement specialists...
"The fact that the abatement company inspector didn't take actual, physical samples and send them to the lab is very hinky, although not necessarily a scam. I can think of two non-scam explanations for that: One, maybe he's worked in this building before (have any of your prospective neighbors dealt with this issue?), and he thinks he can visually ID the popcorn. Two, maybe he has some, ah, less than good beliefs about his ability to recognize asbestos visually. (I've worked with long-time ACM guys -- from other places, not from my company -- who very sincerely believe that 9x9 tile is ALWAYS asbestos and 12x12 NEVER is. Thing is, they're wrong -- I've sampled 12x12 and had it come up asbestos myself. And they do abatement on that assumption, rather than sampling. Those are the guys to avoid. If you ask an abatement contractor what he'd do with 12x12 floor tile and he tells you it's never asbestos, I'd avoid him.)"
Nthing it might be safest if you seal it and don't touch it, providing the air quality checks out prior to making that decision.
We had asbestos wrapped around pipes in our basement and were told by a professional that it was safer not to touch it. It never bothered me knowing it was down there. Then again, that was below us and we didn't spend a whole lotta time down there. Not sure how I would feel if it were over my head, tho.
-------
Mostly I'm back to urge you to (a) read that question and thread in its entirety, (b) urge your MIL not to use a handyman for a multitude of reasons, and (c) make sure you know you can get independent testing.
My best as you navigate this issue. I hope it all turns out well.
posted by jbenben at 9:22 PM on October 13, 2011 [2 favorites]
I think your MIL must have gone to landlord school with our lead-paint-risk-scoffing landlord!
I have no expert knowledge, but this seems about the best way to put asbestos into the air of a residential unit possible, and I wouldn't risk it. One other option I do know a little bit about though is skimming the ceiling - instead of removing it or living with the nasty texture, you have a good plasterer apply a thin coat of new plaster, creating a smooth surface without getting into the asbestos.
Good luck, I know how weird family relationships can make things, but please stand up to this for you and your kid.
posted by crabintheocean at 9:26 PM on October 13, 2011
I have no expert knowledge, but this seems about the best way to put asbestos into the air of a residential unit possible, and I wouldn't risk it. One other option I do know a little bit about though is skimming the ceiling - instead of removing it or living with the nasty texture, you have a good plasterer apply a thin coat of new plaster, creating a smooth surface without getting into the asbestos.
Good luck, I know how weird family relationships can make things, but please stand up to this for you and your kid.
posted by crabintheocean at 9:26 PM on October 13, 2011
I believe I read once about a contractor applying sheetrock directly over a popcorned ceiling containing asbestos. Perhaps a MeFite contractor could tell you for sure, but it seems like that would enclose the asbestos without exposing it while giving you the smooth ceilings you want. If it would work, it would certainly be cheaper than asbestos abatement.
posted by summerstorm at 9:31 PM on October 13, 2011 [5 favorites]
posted by summerstorm at 9:31 PM on October 13, 2011 [5 favorites]
If your MIL is really price conscious, probably the cheapest thing to do is either to paint these popcorn ceilings or just tile over them with polystyrene or Styrofoam ceiling tiles, which come in lots of colours and textures and can also be painted. I have popcorn ceilings in my house. I don't know if they contain abestos and don't much care because there are easy and inexpensive alternatives to taking them down, and so I sidestep the whole issue. If you can pay to have them painted, do that, because priming a popcorn ceiling is a miserable job. You get covered in paint ( I had some on my teeth when I did it), and the primer you use on a popcorn ceiling is like glue.
posted by orange swan at 9:33 PM on October 13, 2011
posted by orange swan at 9:33 PM on October 13, 2011
Please consider options other than living here. There are several major red flags in this situation. The cheapest method is severely dangerous; the landlord doesn't care even after direct objections and is trying to push ahead with it. What does that say about 1) future maintenance issues and 2) other potential safety issues that already exist in the apartment?
If you MUST live here for some reason, don't limit the inspections you get to air quality. Think about what other elements of the house were likely maintained with an eye to the cheapest possible solution. At a bare minimum, please make sure electrical systems and gas connections are safe.
posted by kalapierson at 11:29 PM on October 13, 2011 [2 favorites]
If you MUST live here for some reason, don't limit the inspections you get to air quality. Think about what other elements of the house were likely maintained with an eye to the cheapest possible solution. At a bare minimum, please make sure electrical systems and gas connections are safe.
posted by kalapierson at 11:29 PM on October 13, 2011 [2 favorites]
summerstorm: "I believe I read once about a contractor applying sheetrock directly over a popcorned ceiling containing asbestos."
Yep, this is The Way To Do It. It's easy to find a couple of guys who can hang sheetrock and another who can tape and float it, lots easier and less expensive than doing the removal thing. It still won't be free -- I suspect your MIL will jump up and down at the cost. Still, it'd be less than the alternative.
Or, should you decide to paint it, as mentioned upthread, it's much easier to spray it than roll it.
Last. Should you decide to scrape it down, get it wet first, water it down, soak that texture, let it set for a few minutes, then scrape it off -- it'll come off in big areas, it's way easier, and of course less dust.
posted by dancestoblue at 11:32 PM on October 13, 2011
Yep, this is The Way To Do It. It's easy to find a couple of guys who can hang sheetrock and another who can tape and float it, lots easier and less expensive than doing the removal thing. It still won't be free -- I suspect your MIL will jump up and down at the cost. Still, it'd be less than the alternative.
Or, should you decide to paint it, as mentioned upthread, it's much easier to spray it than roll it.
Last. Should you decide to scrape it down, get it wet first, water it down, soak that texture, let it set for a few minutes, then scrape it off -- it'll come off in big areas, it's way easier, and of course less dust.
posted by dancestoblue at 11:32 PM on October 13, 2011
I was just coming in to also suggest 'Containment' as it's called. Sheetrock over the ceilings and that's that. I know in NYC where there's more asbestos than you can shake a stick at (the old WTC, for example, or any of the steam pipes that explode and shoot it all over the place), the common solution was to 'contain' it, either by wrapping pipes with plaster and gauze or boxing the pipes in. Calling in 'Asbestos Abatement Professionals' often ended with four Polish (or Ecuadoran or Croatian or _fill in any group of illegal immigrants here_ ) guys with paper masks who would rips the stuff down as fast as possible, resulting in a good amount of it just floating around in the air.
Read Invoke's comment again.
Consider 'Containment'
and lastly, if you remove it altogether vette your contractor thoroughly.
Good luck!
posted by From Bklyn at 12:32 AM on October 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
Read Invoke's comment again.
Consider 'Containment'
and lastly, if you remove it altogether vette your contractor thoroughly.
Good luck!
posted by From Bklyn at 12:32 AM on October 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
Pretty much everyone above has given you good advice about the asbestos.
Here's something else to think about: if this apartment is old enough to have popcorn ceiling that's known asbestos, it's almost certainly old enough to have lead-based paint. (If it was built between 1978 and 1981, it could have asbestos popcorn but be after the ban on lead-based paint.)
If your MIL is willing to compromise on her asbestos abatement, she probably isn't worried about your potential lead paint risk. I would think very carefully about moving a two year old into this environment. That's the worst possible age to expose a kid to potential lead-paint hazards.
Normally I'd say Yeah, just keep the popcorn intact, or if it's in bad shape, encapsulate it (by using a licensed asbestos professional). As long as the texture remains absolutely undisturbed, it won't release fibers. (And in fact, responsible corporate landlords with asbestos popcorn ceilings in their complexes do regular walk-throughs to inspect all the ceilings and make sure this isn't happening.)
But in your case, you have a two year old, and there are additional risks. Moving into an apartment owned by a family member who doesn't appear to know enough or care enough to safely abate known environmental risks is a HUGE concern.
If I were in your situation, I would (if the building is pre-78) want a report from a qualified lead inspector who did a lead inspection with an XRF unit, NOT lead-check swabs. If the building is pre-1978, DO NOT scrape paint to prepare surfaces for painting without testing for lead-based paint first.
If abatement involving the removal of the ceiling material does get done, it needs to be done right, and they need to do air clearance sampling before you inhabit the space. Additionally, proper asbestos abatement takes time. I'd be surprised if they could complete the job before your projected move-in date.
For future reference, the LA County Department of Public Health's Environmental Department is the right regulatory agency to start with for both lead-based paint and asbestos in your area. (And if you did decide you want to report your MIL, that'd also be the place to go. If you don't decide to live there and she does use an unlicensed handyman, she'll be putting him at risk, as well as putting herself at risk for some really whopping fines. The regulatory agencies really do not like it when landlords use unlicensed asbestos guys and throw asbestos away as solid waste.)
posted by pie ninja at 4:23 AM on October 14, 2011 [4 favorites]
Here's something else to think about: if this apartment is old enough to have popcorn ceiling that's known asbestos, it's almost certainly old enough to have lead-based paint. (If it was built between 1978 and 1981, it could have asbestos popcorn but be after the ban on lead-based paint.)
If your MIL is willing to compromise on her asbestos abatement, she probably isn't worried about your potential lead paint risk. I would think very carefully about moving a two year old into this environment. That's the worst possible age to expose a kid to potential lead-paint hazards.
Normally I'd say Yeah, just keep the popcorn intact, or if it's in bad shape, encapsulate it (by using a licensed asbestos professional). As long as the texture remains absolutely undisturbed, it won't release fibers. (And in fact, responsible corporate landlords with asbestos popcorn ceilings in their complexes do regular walk-throughs to inspect all the ceilings and make sure this isn't happening.)
But in your case, you have a two year old, and there are additional risks. Moving into an apartment owned by a family member who doesn't appear to know enough or care enough to safely abate known environmental risks is a HUGE concern.
If I were in your situation, I would (if the building is pre-78) want a report from a qualified lead inspector who did a lead inspection with an XRF unit, NOT lead-check swabs. If the building is pre-1978, DO NOT scrape paint to prepare surfaces for painting without testing for lead-based paint first.
If abatement involving the removal of the ceiling material does get done, it needs to be done right, and they need to do air clearance sampling before you inhabit the space. Additionally, proper asbestos abatement takes time. I'd be surprised if they could complete the job before your projected move-in date.
For future reference, the LA County Department of Public Health's Environmental Department is the right regulatory agency to start with for both lead-based paint and asbestos in your area. (And if you did decide you want to report your MIL, that'd also be the place to go. If you don't decide to live there and she does use an unlicensed handyman, she'll be putting him at risk, as well as putting herself at risk for some really whopping fines. The regulatory agencies really do not like it when landlords use unlicensed asbestos guys and throw asbestos away as solid waste.)
posted by pie ninja at 4:23 AM on October 14, 2011 [4 favorites]
Man, in what self-righteous crazyland are you all living in? "Report your mother-in-law!" Yes, what a FANTASTIC idea for the health of your marriage! Or howsabout you figure out how to avoid your mother-in-law breaking the law in the first place! In other words: containment or air-testing and don't touch the asbestos if it isn't currently dangerous (which it probably isn't). There are plenty of dedicated testers around -- they don't do abatement, they'll take samples and send it to labs, and they'll be able to advise you on the health risks to you and your family depending on what you choose.
And really, if you're trying to raise your child in a lead-paint-free environment, you picked the wrong city to do it in. Best to move someplace that's entirely new construction like ... I don't know ... Celebration, Florida? Or you could always just ensure every painted surface has a couple of fresh coats on it, and at any sign of degredation or flaking, repaint. I bet that tester who comes to take a look at the asbestos will also have some advice on the lead paint.
posted by incessant at 8:09 AM on October 14, 2011
And really, if you're trying to raise your child in a lead-paint-free environment, you picked the wrong city to do it in. Best to move someplace that's entirely new construction like ... I don't know ... Celebration, Florida? Or you could always just ensure every painted surface has a couple of fresh coats on it, and at any sign of degredation or flaking, repaint. I bet that tester who comes to take a look at the asbestos will also have some advice on the lead paint.
posted by incessant at 8:09 AM on October 14, 2011
A thought for Mil/Landlord-to-be to consider: if you won't live there and she rents it to someone else, they might not be as nice about turning her in. She probably can't sell the property without disclosing knowledge of the asbestos, so she'll need to do it sooner or later.
The choices are containment or removal. The former is easier and immediately improves the space (hey, a new ceiling!); the latter is slow, messy, expensive, and eventually offers a chance to improve the space (oh, gosh, now that's finished, we need to put in a new ceiling!).
I have young kids, and I wouldn't rent -- much less buy -- a place with lead, radon, or asbestos, regardless of the price.
posted by wenestvedt at 8:10 AM on October 14, 2011
The choices are containment or removal. The former is easier and immediately improves the space (hey, a new ceiling!); the latter is slow, messy, expensive, and eventually offers a chance to improve the space (oh, gosh, now that's finished, we need to put in a new ceiling!).
I have young kids, and I wouldn't rent -- much less buy -- a place with lead, radon, or asbestos, regardless of the price.
posted by wenestvedt at 8:10 AM on October 14, 2011
Another point is that if she's going to be this way about something that could seriously affect her grandchild's health (both the asbestos and possible lead paint) then how is she going to be when the stove stops working or the toilet is leaking? Will she try to do the cheapest thing possible there as well?
I think your best bet, really, is to move somewhere else and possibly assist her on managing this apartment if you feel an obligation to do so.
posted by dawkins_7 at 8:14 AM on October 14, 2011
I think your best bet, really, is to move somewhere else and possibly assist her on managing this apartment if you feel an obligation to do so.
posted by dawkins_7 at 8:14 AM on October 14, 2011
"Most of the very same evidence exists against fiberglass"
Um, cite? Since when in fibreglass considered carcinogenic.
posted by roofus at 11:23 AM on October 14, 2011
Um, cite? Since when in fibreglass considered carcinogenic.
posted by roofus at 11:23 AM on October 14, 2011
I don't have any cites for you from my actual legal work, for obvious reasons. Quickly Google searching, I find:
http://www.sustainableenterprises.com/fin/News/uneasy.htm
"The Albert Einstein College of Medicine at Yeshiva University and the Abramson Cancer Center at the University of Pennsylvania both write on the debate about fiberglass' cancer-causing effects. The colleges cite studies on laboratory animals exposed to fiberglass particles. Each suggest further research on the topic. The Fiberglass Information Network cites studies by the National Institute of Occupational Safety and Health showing that glass fibers could damage cellular mechanisms and DNA. These changes could promote the growth of cancer cells in the body.
Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/124778-fiberglass-breathing-danger-effects/#ixzz1amZhFZ00"
"It also has some worried that the fibers from fiberglass are just as dangerous as asbestos -- it's sometimes referred to negatively as "man-made asbestos" or the asbestos of the 20th century. Research on fiberglass inhalation has come to various conclusions. A study in 1970 on rats stated that "fibrous glass of small diameter is a potent carcinogen" [source: Consumer Law]."
http://home.howstuffworks.com/home-improvement/household-safety/tips/dangerous-insulation1.htm
Also from that article: "Once it's installed, fiberglass rests safely between panels, sheetrock and plaster -- only when it's removed will fibers become airborne." Yes, same as asbestos, my comment.
"I have a fiberglass tub/shower. Is it dangerous?
In most cases, no. Fiberglass which is fully encapsulated in plastic or other solid materials is unlikely to be harmful. " Same as as asbestos, my comment. http://www.sustainableenterprises.com/fin/Basics/FAQ.htm
http://www.mesolawsuit.com/articles/cancer-caused-by-fiberglass/
http://www.projectcensored.org/top-stories/articles/16-fiberglass-the-carcinogen-thats-deadly-and-everywhere/
"The International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC), of the World Health Organization, listed fiber glass as a “probable [human] carcinogen” in 1987. In 1990, the members of the U.S. National Toxicology Program (NTP)-representatives of 10 federal health agencies-concluded unanimously that fiber glass “may reasonably be anticipated to be a carcinogen” in humans. NTP members were preparing to list fiber glass that way in the Seventh Annual (1992) Report on Carcinogens, the NTP’s annual listing of cancer-causing substances, which is mandated by public law 95-622. But industry intervened politically."
http://www.sprayfoamnation.com/fiberglass-asbestos-21st-century
Frankly, the data on the links I gave really aren't as strong as for cancer from asbestos, but the reports I read on the job were much more convincing. Sorry I don't have scans, it would be unethical, sadly.
posted by Invoke at 11:43 AM on October 14, 2011
http://www.sustainableenterprises.com/fin/News/uneasy.htm
"The Albert Einstein College of Medicine at Yeshiva University and the Abramson Cancer Center at the University of Pennsylvania both write on the debate about fiberglass' cancer-causing effects. The colleges cite studies on laboratory animals exposed to fiberglass particles. Each suggest further research on the topic. The Fiberglass Information Network cites studies by the National Institute of Occupational Safety and Health showing that glass fibers could damage cellular mechanisms and DNA. These changes could promote the growth of cancer cells in the body.
Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/124778-fiberglass-breathing-danger-effects/#ixzz1amZhFZ00"
"It also has some worried that the fibers from fiberglass are just as dangerous as asbestos -- it's sometimes referred to negatively as "man-made asbestos" or the asbestos of the 20th century. Research on fiberglass inhalation has come to various conclusions. A study in 1970 on rats stated that "fibrous glass of small diameter is a potent carcinogen" [source: Consumer Law]."
http://home.howstuffworks.com/home-improvement/household-safety/tips/dangerous-insulation1.htm
Also from that article: "Once it's installed, fiberglass rests safely between panels, sheetrock and plaster -- only when it's removed will fibers become airborne." Yes, same as asbestos, my comment.
"I have a fiberglass tub/shower. Is it dangerous?
In most cases, no. Fiberglass which is fully encapsulated in plastic or other solid materials is unlikely to be harmful. " Same as as asbestos, my comment. http://www.sustainableenterprises.com/fin/Basics/FAQ.htm
http://www.mesolawsuit.com/articles/cancer-caused-by-fiberglass/
http://www.projectcensored.org/top-stories/articles/16-fiberglass-the-carcinogen-thats-deadly-and-everywhere/
"The International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC), of the World Health Organization, listed fiber glass as a “probable [human] carcinogen” in 1987. In 1990, the members of the U.S. National Toxicology Program (NTP)-representatives of 10 federal health agencies-concluded unanimously that fiber glass “may reasonably be anticipated to be a carcinogen” in humans. NTP members were preparing to list fiber glass that way in the Seventh Annual (1992) Report on Carcinogens, the NTP’s annual listing of cancer-causing substances, which is mandated by public law 95-622. But industry intervened politically."
http://www.sprayfoamnation.com/fiberglass-asbestos-21st-century
Frankly, the data on the links I gave really aren't as strong as for cancer from asbestos, but the reports I read on the job were much more convincing. Sorry I don't have scans, it would be unethical, sadly.
posted by Invoke at 11:43 AM on October 14, 2011
Enh, I can see the fibreglass thing because it's all about the length of the fibers getting in to the air. I wouldn't be worried about the asbestos if she contains it or just otherwise doesn't touch it. Asbestos is really only a problem when the fibers are loose and get into the air (ie, when people remediate improperly, as she is proposing).
I would pay more attention to the lead paint cautions above. Lead is really, really, really not good for small children, at least as long as we want their brains to develop well. Again, the risk can be managed through proper maintenance - you just want to be sure she's not going to blow off any maintenance concerns. Because blood lead levels correlate Directly to lessened IQ, and no one should hand-wave away lead concerns regarding children.
posted by ldthomps at 11:46 AM on October 14, 2011
I would pay more attention to the lead paint cautions above. Lead is really, really, really not good for small children, at least as long as we want their brains to develop well. Again, the risk can be managed through proper maintenance - you just want to be sure she's not going to blow off any maintenance concerns. Because blood lead levels correlate Directly to lessened IQ, and no one should hand-wave away lead concerns regarding children.
posted by ldthomps at 11:46 AM on October 14, 2011
Painting over them makes them much harder to remove in the future. Intact ceilings do not pose a health risk.
Installing furring strips to attach drywall will disturb the material, so if this is done the room must be curtained with plastic, and the installer should have a vacuum in hand while drilling holes, though I've seen the recommendation for shaving cream to be applied to the back of the furring strips in order to catch any particulate. It is not a job for the cheapest handyman around- someone needs to care about the quality of the job they are doing.
Frankly, if your MIL is as cavalier towards asbestos as it seems, it is best to just leave the ceiling alone.
posted by oneirodynia at 12:10 PM on October 14, 2011
Installing furring strips to attach drywall will disturb the material, so if this is done the room must be curtained with plastic, and the installer should have a vacuum in hand while drilling holes, though I've seen the recommendation for shaving cream to be applied to the back of the furring strips in order to catch any particulate. It is not a job for the cheapest handyman around- someone needs to care about the quality of the job they are doing.
Frankly, if your MIL is as cavalier towards asbestos as it seems, it is best to just leave the ceiling alone.
posted by oneirodynia at 12:10 PM on October 14, 2011
Okay, here's a .pdf on asbestos popcorn ceilings. It outlines what contractors must do, and in particular the cleanup procedures, which are actually more arduous than the removal. This is the part where random dude with a truck is unlikely to show the due diligence that a trained professional would. You might want to send the link to your mother-in-law. The article is fairly short while still being comprehensive.
posted by oneirodynia at 12:22 PM on October 14, 2011
posted by oneirodynia at 12:22 PM on October 14, 2011
There have been several waves of people in Australia suffering from mesothelioma - first, those who worked for companies who manufactured and installed asbestos decades ago, to (at least in Queensland) teachers and ex-students who were exposed to Asbestos in classrooms in the 1970s. The third wave of cancer cases have come from people doing their own home renovations. That includes cases of people whose only known exposure to asbestos was - as a child - playing in the room while their parents renovated.
Don't muck around with asbestos - you and your family's health is more important than treading on someone else's toes. Do everything you can to ensure you are not around during renovations.
posted by chronic sublime at 2:27 AM on October 26, 2011
Don't muck around with asbestos - you and your family's health is more important than treading on someone else's toes. Do everything you can to ensure you are not around during renovations.
posted by chronic sublime at 2:27 AM on October 26, 2011
You should know that ALL asbestos abatement in Los Angeles is regulated by the SCAQMD (South Coast Air Quality Management District). She really need to go through them to have this done right. Asbestos is no joke. The AQMD will be able to provide resources about qualified contractors.
posted by annie o at 7:41 PM on October 26, 2011
posted by annie o at 7:41 PM on October 26, 2011
This thread is closed to new comments.
Yes
posted by TheBones at 7:57 PM on October 13, 2011 [9 favorites]