Can you be right *and* wrong?
October 3, 2011 1:42 PM Subscribe
My boyfriend has no boyfriend experience.
I'm dating this wonderful, attractive, sweet guy that I've been friends with for a long time. I love him. But he doesn't have much dating experience, and I think it's affecting our interactions.
He and I dated for 6 weeks, more than a decade ago, broke up, and now we're dating again. In the time in between, I had two long-term relationships and one marriage. He went on a lot of first dates. Before we dated the first time, same thing. He always said he couldn't find the right girl. So he has no experience as a boyfriend, except for 6 weeks in his early 20s, with me.
We're closer this time around than the last, and it's awesome - except that he refuses to compromise if we disagree. We have an argument, I have hurt feelings, and he says that he can't apologize, because he isn't wrong and it would be empty. When I express that I am upset, he tells me that I'm upsetting him by telling him that I'm upset.
I've had many arguments with SOs (divorce, I'm looking at you) and I've apologized, after arguing, when I realized I was wrong. But arguments with current boyfriend are different. He doesn't seem concerned that I might be angry about something. If he knows I'm angry, he does a great job of acting like nothing is wrong. And he will never, ever say he is wrong.
How can I explain to him that it is possible to be right and still hurt someone else's feelings, or that he could just be wrong and he needs to acknowledge it? How can I explain to him that sometimes you just suck it up and apologize, even when you're right? [I've done this before, so I'm not expecting him to bow down to my will or anything.] Or have I just found The Most Stubborn Man on the Planet?
FWIW, we've been dating 11 months, we're mid-30s and I have tried for the last 7 months, to just go along with it. It doesn't work.
I'm dating this wonderful, attractive, sweet guy that I've been friends with for a long time. I love him. But he doesn't have much dating experience, and I think it's affecting our interactions.
He and I dated for 6 weeks, more than a decade ago, broke up, and now we're dating again. In the time in between, I had two long-term relationships and one marriage. He went on a lot of first dates. Before we dated the first time, same thing. He always said he couldn't find the right girl. So he has no experience as a boyfriend, except for 6 weeks in his early 20s, with me.
We're closer this time around than the last, and it's awesome - except that he refuses to compromise if we disagree. We have an argument, I have hurt feelings, and he says that he can't apologize, because he isn't wrong and it would be empty. When I express that I am upset, he tells me that I'm upsetting him by telling him that I'm upset.
I've had many arguments with SOs (divorce, I'm looking at you) and I've apologized, after arguing, when I realized I was wrong. But arguments with current boyfriend are different. He doesn't seem concerned that I might be angry about something. If he knows I'm angry, he does a great job of acting like nothing is wrong. And he will never, ever say he is wrong.
How can I explain to him that it is possible to be right and still hurt someone else's feelings, or that he could just be wrong and he needs to acknowledge it? How can I explain to him that sometimes you just suck it up and apologize, even when you're right? [I've done this before, so I'm not expecting him to bow down to my will or anything.] Or have I just found The Most Stubborn Man on the Planet?
FWIW, we've been dating 11 months, we're mid-30s and I have tried for the last 7 months, to just go along with it. It doesn't work.
There is a reason he has no "boyfriend experience". People who are that rigidly unwilling to compromise rarely make good partners. If he has reached his mid-30's and hasn't realized that sometimes you say "sorry" even when you know you're right, he is unlikely to reach that realization at any point in the future. Your gut instinct is telling you "it doesn't work". Go with your gut.
posted by cosmicbandito at 1:49 PM on October 3, 2011 [46 favorites]
posted by cosmicbandito at 1:49 PM on October 3, 2011 [46 favorites]
Yes, I think he's just too stubborn.
It's not even just about him thinking he's right all the time, which is bad enough. But he seem not to care about you being upset.
Maybe the fact that he has no boyfriend experience is not the root of the problem but the symptom -- nobody wants to keep him.
posted by maurreen at 1:50 PM on October 3, 2011 [13 favorites]
It's not even just about him thinking he's right all the time, which is bad enough. But he seem not to care about you being upset.
Maybe the fact that he has no boyfriend experience is not the root of the problem but the symptom -- nobody wants to keep him.
posted by maurreen at 1:50 PM on October 3, 2011 [13 favorites]
Tell him to read a whole lot of relationship AskMes. Seriously.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 1:57 PM on October 3, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by EndsOfInvention at 1:57 PM on October 3, 2011 [2 favorites]
Yeah, I think you might have cause and affect wrong -- nobody will date him because he's stubborn and thinks hurting your feelings is not wrong and not something he should feel bad about.
If this is something pretty serious where you're in it for the long haul, then you need couples counseling, stat. If not, it's time for you to move on.
posted by brainmouse at 1:58 PM on October 3, 2011 [2 favorites]
If this is something pretty serious where you're in it for the long haul, then you need couples counseling, stat. If not, it's time for you to move on.
posted by brainmouse at 1:58 PM on October 3, 2011 [2 favorites]
(effect, eeeeffect, not affect)
posted by brainmouse at 1:58 PM on October 3, 2011
posted by brainmouse at 1:58 PM on October 3, 2011
There's a difference between "sorry, I was wrong" and "sorry, I upset you" and understanding that does not necessarily correlate with being someone's boyfriend. You don't need to say you're wrong if you're actually right, but you do need to apologize for the way you've argued your point or ignored your partner's frustrations, if your partner is upset at the way the conversation went.
I don't think he behaves the way he does because he has little relationship experience, I think he has little relationship experience because he behaves that way.
posted by lydhre at 1:58 PM on October 3, 2011 [3 favorites]
I don't think he behaves the way he does because he has little relationship experience, I think he has little relationship experience because he behaves that way.
posted by lydhre at 1:58 PM on October 3, 2011 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: EndsOfInvention, the problem with that is that he doesn't think there is a problem. He thinks I have a problem.
posted by doyouknowwhoIam? at 1:59 PM on October 3, 2011
posted by doyouknowwhoIam? at 1:59 PM on October 3, 2011
bah, don't listen to the people suggesting you dump him. not yet, anyway.
i didn't realise until i was 40 (and in my current relationship, i.e. married) that BEING RIGHT ISN'T ALWAYS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN LIFE.
i used to be that person. until i belatedly dropped the ego and grew up a bit.
so give him a chance. explain to him that life isn't a pub quiz, and that nobody's keeping score.
posted by alan2001 at 2:00 PM on October 3, 2011 [2 favorites]
i didn't realise until i was 40 (and in my current relationship, i.e. married) that BEING RIGHT ISN'T ALWAYS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN LIFE.
i used to be that person. until i belatedly dropped the ego and grew up a bit.
so give him a chance. explain to him that life isn't a pub quiz, and that nobody's keeping score.
posted by alan2001 at 2:00 PM on October 3, 2011 [2 favorites]
That he is too stubborn to admit he is wrong (or to suck it up and "lose" the fight even when he knows he is right) isn't what really sends up warning signals for me. It's that he doesn't seem to care (or even acknowledge!) when you are upset. If he's not even willing to throw a "I'm sorry that this is upsetting you" while still stubbornly refusing to accept that he is wrong, then I have a hard time seeing how this will work out. You say that he is sweet, but it sounds like he doesn't care about your feelings, which isn't very sweet.
As others have said, his lack of boyfriend experience may be a symptom of the problem, rather than the problem itself.
posted by asnider at 2:00 PM on October 3, 2011 [3 favorites]
As others have said, his lack of boyfriend experience may be a symptom of the problem, rather than the problem itself.
posted by asnider at 2:00 PM on October 3, 2011 [3 favorites]
Best answer: Sounds like he'd rather be right than be happy. That sucks. It's a hard habit to break. I used to be one of those people. I finally realized that one should pick one's battles -- there's sometimes stuff that's just not worth the effort of fighting about.
Steel isn't strong because it's hard. Steel is strong because it FLEXES.
I don't know how I came to change my attitude. Maturity, I'd like to think. But probably it was just that I got sick of being an asshole. You can't change someone who doesn't want to change.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 2:00 PM on October 3, 2011 [6 favorites]
Steel isn't strong because it's hard. Steel is strong because it FLEXES.
I don't know how I came to change my attitude. Maturity, I'd like to think. But probably it was just that I got sick of being an asshole. You can't change someone who doesn't want to change.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 2:00 PM on October 3, 2011 [6 favorites]
Best answer: There's a sign floating around tumblr that says "You apologize because you value the relationship more than you value being right." My partner thinks he's right about everything. So do I. He's an atheist. I'm decidedly not. Sometimes you have to realize that a relationship doesn't need to have winners and losers.
posted by medea42 at 2:01 PM on October 3, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by medea42 at 2:01 PM on October 3, 2011 [2 favorites]
How can I explain to him that it is possible to be right and still hurt someone else's feelings
I think if he doesn't figure out how to show you some respect while being "right" about something, then that's a dealbreaker that will eventually teach him this lesson the hard way. But while you're trying to work with him on it, I think How to Win Friends and Influence People has one of the most misleading titles ever. It ought to be called How to Stop Criticizing and Give Someone Positive Incentives to Build a More Agreeable Relationship with You So Both Your Lives Get Better. Since you're explicitly asking for advice on how to talk to him about this, it's very much on point as something you could try, because he's unlikely to respond to criticism however much he deserves it. And coincidentally, it sounds like your goal would be for him to internalize the same basic idea, though he's not going to do it just because you know he should.
posted by Monsieur Caution at 2:06 PM on October 3, 2011 [1 favorite]
I think if he doesn't figure out how to show you some respect while being "right" about something, then that's a dealbreaker that will eventually teach him this lesson the hard way. But while you're trying to work with him on it, I think How to Win Friends and Influence People has one of the most misleading titles ever. It ought to be called How to Stop Criticizing and Give Someone Positive Incentives to Build a More Agreeable Relationship with You So Both Your Lives Get Better. Since you're explicitly asking for advice on how to talk to him about this, it's very much on point as something you could try, because he's unlikely to respond to criticism however much he deserves it. And coincidentally, it sounds like your goal would be for him to internalize the same basic idea, though he's not going to do it just because you know he should.
posted by Monsieur Caution at 2:06 PM on October 3, 2011 [1 favorite]
It's hard for me not to filter this through my own experience in a bad relationship, so take this with a grain of salt. To me, this behavior is a major dealbreaker and leads to a toxic dynamic that I refuse to ever tolerate again. Either he cares about your feelings and your happiness, or he is a poison that will eat away at your self-esteem and ability to enjoy life. A romantic partner should be on your team, which means that if you have a problem, it's a shared problem that you address together. Instead it sounds like he expects to never have to compromise or adjust his behavior for you. Instead, you have to do 100% of the compromising and adjusting, with the result that he gets everything he wants and you get to feel exhausted, silenced, unbalanced, sad, and angry. If your feelings are being devalued, then your needs will not be met in this relationship.
posted by prefpara at 2:10 PM on October 3, 2011 [40 favorites]
posted by prefpara at 2:10 PM on October 3, 2011 [40 favorites]
Yeah, that sounds like the perfect setup for long-term chronic emotional abuse. As long as this is his conflict management strategy, he's basically undateable in my book.
posted by restless_nomad at 2:11 PM on October 3, 2011 [5 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad at 2:11 PM on October 3, 2011 [5 favorites]
Your emotions are as real as gravity and rocks. If he hurts your feelings, then you are hurt. If he is unwilling to deal with that, then that could be a dealbreaker. Thinking that you have a problem reminds me of the recent column about emotional 'gaslighting' and "You're being crazy" as an argument tactic when someone is upset.
posted by rmd1023 at 2:17 PM on October 3, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by rmd1023 at 2:17 PM on October 3, 2011 [3 favorites]
Wow, he's right again! You do have a problem: him.
posted by thebazilist at 2:19 PM on October 3, 2011 [22 favorites]
posted by thebazilist at 2:19 PM on October 3, 2011 [22 favorites]
1. It is impossible to enjoy an mutually satisfying relationship with a person who cannot admit that he or she is wrong.
2. It is possible for someone to realize and admit that they are sometimes wrong.
If 2 doesn't happen, then 1 is all that's left.
posted by cnc at 2:28 PM on October 3, 2011 [1 favorite]
2. It is possible for someone to realize and admit that they are sometimes wrong.
If 2 doesn't happen, then 1 is all that's left.
posted by cnc at 2:28 PM on October 3, 2011 [1 favorite]
If you want to be the one to teach him how a willow tree can stand up to a hurricane, you're going to also be the one who gets hit with a shit load of falling branches as he learns to completely rethink his approach to human interaction. And because he's pretty old it's going to be really, really hard unless he really, really wants to change. And it's clear that he doesn't. I'm sorry.
Make an appointment to have a coffee with him in another ten years.
posted by seanmpuckett at 2:32 PM on October 3, 2011 [1 favorite]
Make an appointment to have a coffee with him in another ten years.
posted by seanmpuckett at 2:32 PM on October 3, 2011 [1 favorite]
Serious bells and red flags about this manipulative gem:
When I express that I am upset, he tells me that I'm upsetting him by telling him that I'm upset.
That's in the emotionally abusive person handbook, between the "silent treatment" and "social isolation."
posted by Pax at 2:36 PM on October 3, 2011 [25 favorites]
When I express that I am upset, he tells me that I'm upsetting him by telling him that I'm upset.
That's in the emotionally abusive person handbook, between the "silent treatment" and "social isolation."
posted by Pax at 2:36 PM on October 3, 2011 [25 favorites]
Best answer: EndsOfInvention, the problem with that is that he doesn't think there is a problem. He thinks I have a problem.
The proper response to that is no, since this impacts your relationship it means that we have a problem.
One of the most useful things anyone ever told me was over a trivial language thing. I was using what was, to me, an affectionate term. An term that she used as a term of affection in some circumstances. She asked me not to use it in this context, I pushed back on it a bit and let it go. The next time I did it she reiterates her opinion and asks why I won't respect that. I say that I just don't understand why it bothers her.
She replied with the most on-point phrase I think anyone has ever said to me. "I don't understand why it isn't enough that you know it bothers me."
Your boyfriend needs to get to that point and understand that this situation is A Problem. Being right or wrong isn't all there is, and finding a way for both of you to be happy is part of the core mission of a relationship. You should not be shy about telling him that if working these things out amiably isn't something he's committed to then he's not committed to making the two of you work.
Until you can get past that stone wall I don't think any particular techniques are going to do you any good.
Maybe he's not emotionally manipulative, maybe he's just a dope and thinks that there's no reason for BOTH of you to be upset. But that's not how grown-up relationships work. If he doesn't think you're in this together then he's not in this.
posted by phearlez at 2:38 PM on October 3, 2011 [23 favorites]
The proper response to that is no, since this impacts your relationship it means that we have a problem.
One of the most useful things anyone ever told me was over a trivial language thing. I was using what was, to me, an affectionate term. An term that she used as a term of affection in some circumstances. She asked me not to use it in this context, I pushed back on it a bit and let it go. The next time I did it she reiterates her opinion and asks why I won't respect that. I say that I just don't understand why it bothers her.
She replied with the most on-point phrase I think anyone has ever said to me. "I don't understand why it isn't enough that you know it bothers me."
Your boyfriend needs to get to that point and understand that this situation is A Problem. Being right or wrong isn't all there is, and finding a way for both of you to be happy is part of the core mission of a relationship. You should not be shy about telling him that if working these things out amiably isn't something he's committed to then he's not committed to making the two of you work.
Until you can get past that stone wall I don't think any particular techniques are going to do you any good.
Maybe he's not emotionally manipulative, maybe he's just a dope and thinks that there's no reason for BOTH of you to be upset. But that's not how grown-up relationships work. If he doesn't think you're in this together then he's not in this.
posted by phearlez at 2:38 PM on October 3, 2011 [23 favorites]
Nthing DTMFA. Don't expect to be able to change him, especially not on something like this. Right or wrong, if the person you're in a relationship with would have to change in order for you to be happy, it's time to end it. You don't want to be in a relationship with this guy, you want to be in a relationship with his emotionally healthy doppelganger from an alternate universe. Sadly, that guy is not available, and nothing you can do will make this guy turn into him, just like nothing your boyfriend can do will make you turn into your alternate universe doppelganger who doesn't care about apologies. Also, everything prefpara said. Run away! Run away!
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 2:41 PM on October 3, 2011
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 2:41 PM on October 3, 2011
Everyone is wrong sometime. If he can't see that he is literally irrational.
That you are upset, is a good enough reason *by itself* for him to be concerned. If he loves you (or even just likes you) he should feel the need to help you (or at least comfort your) when you're upset. If he doesn't get that, then why is he with you?
posted by oddman at 2:52 PM on October 3, 2011
That you are upset, is a good enough reason *by itself* for him to be concerned. If he loves you (or even just likes you) he should feel the need to help you (or at least comfort your) when you're upset. If he doesn't get that, then why is he with you?
posted by oddman at 2:52 PM on October 3, 2011
Wow, refusing to compromise isn't a lack of boyfriend experience, its a lack of people experience in general.
I used to have a boyfriend who would refuse to apologise when he felt he was right, even if what he had said hurt my feelings. It didn't work out, unsuprisingly in retrospect. You see, people who care about other peoples feelings care if they hurt that persons feelings. They apologise because even if they *are* technically right, they obviously behaved or expressed it in a way that hurt you, which in itself is WRONG.
If your boyfriend doesn't see this then... well, good luck to you. Him being right is more important than your feelings. I wouldn't try stick it out again, it would be an instant dealbreaker for me.
posted by stillnocturnal at 2:59 PM on October 3, 2011 [2 favorites]
I used to have a boyfriend who would refuse to apologise when he felt he was right, even if what he had said hurt my feelings. It didn't work out, unsuprisingly in retrospect. You see, people who care about other peoples feelings care if they hurt that persons feelings. They apologise because even if they *are* technically right, they obviously behaved or expressed it in a way that hurt you, which in itself is WRONG.
If your boyfriend doesn't see this then... well, good luck to you. Him being right is more important than your feelings. I wouldn't try stick it out again, it would be an instant dealbreaker for me.
posted by stillnocturnal at 2:59 PM on October 3, 2011 [2 favorites]
What was/is his relationship with his parents and siblings? Maybe he was raised (perhaps implicitly) with the notion that apologizing = weakness? Is his relationship with you different from those with others? Does he apologize easily to strangers, like if he bumps into them? This could be based on his perception of you specifically, like if he sees you as his best shot at a long-term partner. One would think he'd be afraid to lose you and would be overly accommodating, yet externally it seems to be the opposite.
posted by TheSecretDecoderRing at 3:00 PM on October 3, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by TheSecretDecoderRing at 3:00 PM on October 3, 2011 [1 favorite]
When I express that I am upset, he tells me that I'm upsetting him by telling him that I'm upset.
He has expressed to you that you being upset is not, in his mind, sufficient reason for him to change his behavior. Ask him why him being upset should be sufficient reason for you to change yours. Why should you care whether you're hurting his feelings if he doesn't care that he's hurting yours?
This guy is behaving like an abusive asshole. We don't know him, so we can't know whether he's behaving like an abusive asshole because he actually is an abusive asshole, or whether he just has a few abusive assholish behaviors that are masking his underlying awesomeness. You need to figure out which one it is. I'd ask him to go to couples therapy with you to work on your communication. But you need to be cognizant of the fact that he's behaving abusively towards you and that you shouldn't put up with it, even if you think he's a nice guy deep down.
posted by decathecting at 3:04 PM on October 3, 2011 [3 favorites]
He has expressed to you that you being upset is not, in his mind, sufficient reason for him to change his behavior. Ask him why him being upset should be sufficient reason for you to change yours. Why should you care whether you're hurting his feelings if he doesn't care that he's hurting yours?
This guy is behaving like an abusive asshole. We don't know him, so we can't know whether he's behaving like an abusive asshole because he actually is an abusive asshole, or whether he just has a few abusive assholish behaviors that are masking his underlying awesomeness. You need to figure out which one it is. I'd ask him to go to couples therapy with you to work on your communication. But you need to be cognizant of the fact that he's behaving abusively towards you and that you shouldn't put up with it, even if you think he's a nice guy deep down.
posted by decathecting at 3:04 PM on October 3, 2011 [3 favorites]
What is it that you want to do with the experience you've gained from the three significant relationships you've had in the last ten years?
Some may use that kind of experience to healthily work through a relationship with the challenges you've described with your current SO, and from what you've described you would probably need your experience and a talented third party (therapist). There is nothing wrong with that, necessarily. If reading through the previous answers does not have you convinced that you're suffering under some occult unhappiness, and that being his partner through his necessary growth and change appeals to you, and that being generous with your experience would give back to you, then apply the strengths you've earned to the here and now with him. But from what you've described, there isn't any way this application won't be work and require professional support and perspective--but for some, being a part of someone's growth contributes to their own, positively.
If what you want or need from your experience is a great deal of natural interpersonal compatibility, then you won't be happy with the work. That's a totally okay thing to have learned about yourself, too. What's more, your desire to enjoy that kind of compatibility after the last decade of your relationship experience may be time sensitive in that you're unwilling to work or wait for it to develop or take the very real risk that it may never be a part of your current relationship. There is a great deal to be said for inherent interpersonal compatibility--it doesn't remove challenges, but it does often mean you and your partner will tend to approach them similarly.
It may be hard to know, right now, where you're at with this basic question. Ask him--I think it would be interesting for you to see how he would answer it. If you have friends that you trust with their general assessment of you, ask them how they think you'd like to work with a SO. Ask a therapist and yourself. Put him on notice that you are actively trying to get to the bottom of all this and you would appreciate his help.
My very best strong thoughts to you--I have had to answer the basic compatibility versus hard work question before and it is not remotely comfortable. Of course, if what others have offered in terms of his behavior feeling or having the potential to be emotionally abusive rings true, then my thoughts don't apply.
posted by rumposinc at 3:23 PM on October 3, 2011 [4 favorites]
Some may use that kind of experience to healthily work through a relationship with the challenges you've described with your current SO, and from what you've described you would probably need your experience and a talented third party (therapist). There is nothing wrong with that, necessarily. If reading through the previous answers does not have you convinced that you're suffering under some occult unhappiness, and that being his partner through his necessary growth and change appeals to you, and that being generous with your experience would give back to you, then apply the strengths you've earned to the here and now with him. But from what you've described, there isn't any way this application won't be work and require professional support and perspective--but for some, being a part of someone's growth contributes to their own, positively.
If what you want or need from your experience is a great deal of natural interpersonal compatibility, then you won't be happy with the work. That's a totally okay thing to have learned about yourself, too. What's more, your desire to enjoy that kind of compatibility after the last decade of your relationship experience may be time sensitive in that you're unwilling to work or wait for it to develop or take the very real risk that it may never be a part of your current relationship. There is a great deal to be said for inherent interpersonal compatibility--it doesn't remove challenges, but it does often mean you and your partner will tend to approach them similarly.
It may be hard to know, right now, where you're at with this basic question. Ask him--I think it would be interesting for you to see how he would answer it. If you have friends that you trust with their general assessment of you, ask them how they think you'd like to work with a SO. Ask a therapist and yourself. Put him on notice that you are actively trying to get to the bottom of all this and you would appreciate his help.
My very best strong thoughts to you--I have had to answer the basic compatibility versus hard work question before and it is not remotely comfortable. Of course, if what others have offered in terms of his behavior feeling or having the potential to be emotionally abusive rings true, then my thoughts don't apply.
posted by rumposinc at 3:23 PM on October 3, 2011 [4 favorites]
It is impossible for anyone here to offer an informed opinion. It could be that he's an immature ass. Or it could be that he's mildly autistic. Or it could be that the reason for your string of failed relationships is YOU.
There is no answering your question without hearing from him, so yes, a counseling session or 2 is probably in order so that you can both at least be on the same page.
posted by coolguymichael at 3:34 PM on October 3, 2011 [1 favorite]
There is no answering your question without hearing from him, so yes, a counseling session or 2 is probably in order so that you can both at least be on the same page.
posted by coolguymichael at 3:34 PM on October 3, 2011 [1 favorite]
Best answer: No one is always right. To believe you are always right is arrogant to the point of being delusional. People who think they have always been right in the past, don't question that they are right this time around because they've always been right in the past, so they are once again right. And you are wrong. Like always.
You can't logic him out of this one because his unbendable belief in his own inherent rightness is irrational, although I have no doubt he regards himself as being the utmost rational at all times.
On a slightly different issue, even if he was always right and you were always wrong, he should still care that you are upset. Sometimes people get upset for irrational reasons or rational reasons when the other person has still done nothing wrong. You should still want to work through those feelings with your SO because you care about their feelings more than asserting your rightness.
I guess the real question is are you willing to always be wrong, always, no matter what, you're wrong, he's right? I actually know people in relationships like that. So I guess it can work, but know that's what you're getting into.
posted by whoaali at 3:41 PM on October 3, 2011
You can't logic him out of this one because his unbendable belief in his own inherent rightness is irrational, although I have no doubt he regards himself as being the utmost rational at all times.
On a slightly different issue, even if he was always right and you were always wrong, he should still care that you are upset. Sometimes people get upset for irrational reasons or rational reasons when the other person has still done nothing wrong. You should still want to work through those feelings with your SO because you care about their feelings more than asserting your rightness.
I guess the real question is are you willing to always be wrong, always, no matter what, you're wrong, he's right? I actually know people in relationships like that. So I guess it can work, but know that's what you're getting into.
posted by whoaali at 3:41 PM on October 3, 2011
Well, it sounds like he just doesn't give a toss.
If he only apologized when he thought he was wrong - well, he does only apologize when he thinks he's wrong. He just never thinks he's wrong, that's all.
I suppose you could go to counselling, but be prepared to have it explained to you by two people why he's right.
I think this might have to be a fault you can live with, though. As whoaali points out, it's irrational, and you can't argue with that.
posted by tel3path at 3:51 PM on October 3, 2011 [1 favorite]
If he only apologized when he thought he was wrong - well, he does only apologize when he thinks he's wrong. He just never thinks he's wrong, that's all.
I suppose you could go to counselling, but be prepared to have it explained to you by two people why he's right.
I think this might have to be a fault you can live with, though. As whoaali points out, it's irrational, and you can't argue with that.
posted by tel3path at 3:51 PM on October 3, 2011 [1 favorite]
Nthing: this has nothing to do with lack of boyfriend experience.
Everyone is wrong at some point or another. Everyone makes mistakes. Everyone says things they shouldn't. It's how we grow and learn. If not, there would be some really wise, considerate 3 year olds out there.
In our interactions with coworkers, bosses, neighbors, roommates, friends, etc, we always have to either make it up to people or apologize or whatever. Or else that relationship will go sour, and fast! AND, even if we don't know what we did wrong, we know when someone is annoyed/mad/insulted at us.
My point: he either has some sort of psychiatric disorder, or he's just a dick.
posted by Neekee at 4:04 PM on October 3, 2011 [1 favorite]
Everyone is wrong at some point or another. Everyone makes mistakes. Everyone says things they shouldn't. It's how we grow and learn. If not, there would be some really wise, considerate 3 year olds out there.
In our interactions with coworkers, bosses, neighbors, roommates, friends, etc, we always have to either make it up to people or apologize or whatever. Or else that relationship will go sour, and fast! AND, even if we don't know what we did wrong, we know when someone is annoyed/mad/insulted at us.
My point: he either has some sort of psychiatric disorder, or he's just a dick.
posted by Neekee at 4:04 PM on October 3, 2011 [1 favorite]
Right. A person who will "never" acknowledge he is wrong is either a nut or a dick.
posted by fivesavagepalms at 4:12 PM on October 3, 2011
posted by fivesavagepalms at 4:12 PM on October 3, 2011
If your argument is that he's only an obstinate prick because he doesn't have a lot of relationship experience, it's virtually certain that you've got that exactly backwards.
posted by mhoye at 4:46 PM on October 3, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by mhoye at 4:46 PM on October 3, 2011 [2 favorites]
The bottom line is you're not happy and it doesn't matter how you can rationalize his behavior. It doesn't matter if he's doing this because of his lack of experience or anything else. He is the way he is. After all, he had the same lack of experience 10 years ago, and he didn't change in all that time. If he's doing this 7 months into the relationship, he's very unlikely to stop doing it if you give him a chance for 7 more months or even years. It doesn't matter why; you just have to recognize this reality. As you can see, you've opened up the thread for one of Metafilter's favorite pastimes, the Let's All Talk About What a Jerk This Guy Is game, which is clearly enjoyable for many commenters but which I don't find incredibly helpful since our opinion of him is irrelevant. You and he are the only two people in the relationship, so your preferences are what matters. If the way he's acting is unacceptable to you and he won't change even after you've talked about it, then that's that; move on.
posted by John Cohen at 4:57 PM on October 3, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by John Cohen at 4:57 PM on October 3, 2011 [3 favorites]
Mod note: Folks, can we keep answers to the helpful and, if possible, slightly less cryptic. The bits are free, please use your words.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 6:12 PM on October 3, 2011
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 6:12 PM on October 3, 2011
I think you should read He Knew He Was Right, by Anthony Trollope.
Maybe this can change, maybe it can't. I think you should assume not, and ask yourself whether the otherwise-awesomeness is enough to make up for that. I don't think that's something AskMeFi can answer.
posted by escabeche at 6:18 PM on October 3, 2011
Maybe this can change, maybe it can't. I think you should assume not, and ask yourself whether the otherwise-awesomeness is enough to make up for that. I don't think that's something AskMeFi can answer.
posted by escabeche at 6:18 PM on October 3, 2011
This is the sort of problem that does quite well in couples' therapy, where you can learn new communication strategies, and find out if this is an issue of defensiveness, poor communication, difficulty seeing other points of view, etc., or if it's a serious incompatibility that you can't resolve.
If he says, "I'm not going to therapy, it's not my problem, you're the one with the problem," then the answer is, "Good, so you can come to one session with me, we'll explain to the therapist, and if s/he says it's my problem, I'll drop it for good and get some therapy for me."
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:20 PM on October 3, 2011
If he says, "I'm not going to therapy, it's not my problem, you're the one with the problem," then the answer is, "Good, so you can come to one session with me, we'll explain to the therapist, and if s/he says it's my problem, I'll drop it for good and get some therapy for me."
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:20 PM on October 3, 2011
I think the things that you've said to him so far sound good.
The part of his behavior that you describe which resonates with me reminds me of something I've realized recently about myself - when I steadfastly and staunchly defend an idea or opinion that I've reasoned out, sometimes I'm doing it out of a desire to be certain about something, anything at all, because I feel certain about very few things in general and I don't feel certain or confident about any of the big parts of my life or stuff I really care about.
In some cases I find that what's happening is that because I've arrived at what feels like a rock-solid well-reasoned conclusion about what's true or what the optimum choice or plan is in a given situation, and because that level of certainty is a rare or often is a novel thing for me, once I've come across it I have an urge to hold onto it tightly and not let go. And I consequently end up arguing and fighting with other people over whatever the issue or point is or get anxious or aggravated about something related to it, in the process of trying to hang on to that bit of certainty I've found within my reach.
But, I have realized, the things I'm usually able to achieve certainty about usually don't really matter: even if I've arrived at some truth or managed to suss out which is the very best choice to make or path to take in a given situation, once I've made that determination actually hanging onto it or pursuing it in most cases doesn't really do me any good. I find that most of the things I become certain of aren't anything I can derive much benefit from; the truth I arrive at isn't usually very useful, even if I can verify it independently or convince others of it; or the choice or path I picked out, even if it's really and objectively the best one, just isn't worth the trouble to pursue myself or persuade others to pursue and so an easier option, or an option that makes for an easier compromise with others, is preferable and worth more in the long run than achieving whatever metrics I'd used to pick my "best" option would've been worth.
The above is probably just my wordy, personal way of saying what can be summed up as "don't sweat the small stuff." Sorry if that was an overly rambling or vague explication of it.
Anyways, the suggestion I've thought of for you is that, in the same vein, you might try to find with him things that he, similarly, holds on to too tightly, things that aren't worth holding onto in the end even if he's certain or objectively right about them; but things unrelated to you and your relationship, maybe things in his work life or his past; and try to work with him to let go of them and be content and move on. And maybe if he has success in letting go of or becoming content with compromising on things outside the relationship, that will lead to him taking the same approach with you and things within your relationship.
On the other hand, DTMFA sounds like a good option too. This approach seems like a large-scale thing that every person needs to work out and make peace with on their own terms and it's probably a lifelong journey and process, and you're really not obligated to help him or put up with more of his shit in this regard than you want to and can stand.
(And of course, for one reason or another you might not be able to help him with releasing the grasp on small and illusory things; you might have to take the "if you love something, let it go" tack, put your shades on, and ride off into the sunset in search of further adventures.)
posted by XMLicious at 7:03 PM on October 3, 2011 [1 favorite]
The part of his behavior that you describe which resonates with me reminds me of something I've realized recently about myself - when I steadfastly and staunchly defend an idea or opinion that I've reasoned out, sometimes I'm doing it out of a desire to be certain about something, anything at all, because I feel certain about very few things in general and I don't feel certain or confident about any of the big parts of my life or stuff I really care about.
In some cases I find that what's happening is that because I've arrived at what feels like a rock-solid well-reasoned conclusion about what's true or what the optimum choice or plan is in a given situation, and because that level of certainty is a rare or often is a novel thing for me, once I've come across it I have an urge to hold onto it tightly and not let go. And I consequently end up arguing and fighting with other people over whatever the issue or point is or get anxious or aggravated about something related to it, in the process of trying to hang on to that bit of certainty I've found within my reach.
But, I have realized, the things I'm usually able to achieve certainty about usually don't really matter: even if I've arrived at some truth or managed to suss out which is the very best choice to make or path to take in a given situation, once I've made that determination actually hanging onto it or pursuing it in most cases doesn't really do me any good. I find that most of the things I become certain of aren't anything I can derive much benefit from; the truth I arrive at isn't usually very useful, even if I can verify it independently or convince others of it; or the choice or path I picked out, even if it's really and objectively the best one, just isn't worth the trouble to pursue myself or persuade others to pursue and so an easier option, or an option that makes for an easier compromise with others, is preferable and worth more in the long run than achieving whatever metrics I'd used to pick my "best" option would've been worth.
The above is probably just my wordy, personal way of saying what can be summed up as "don't sweat the small stuff." Sorry if that was an overly rambling or vague explication of it.
Anyways, the suggestion I've thought of for you is that, in the same vein, you might try to find with him things that he, similarly, holds on to too tightly, things that aren't worth holding onto in the end even if he's certain or objectively right about them; but things unrelated to you and your relationship, maybe things in his work life or his past; and try to work with him to let go of them and be content and move on. And maybe if he has success in letting go of or becoming content with compromising on things outside the relationship, that will lead to him taking the same approach with you and things within your relationship.
On the other hand, DTMFA sounds like a good option too. This approach seems like a large-scale thing that every person needs to work out and make peace with on their own terms and it's probably a lifelong journey and process, and you're really not obligated to help him or put up with more of his shit in this regard than you want to and can stand.
(And of course, for one reason or another you might not be able to help him with releasing the grasp on small and illusory things; you might have to take the "if you love something, let it go" tack, put your shades on, and ride off into the sunset in search of further adventures.)
posted by XMLicious at 7:03 PM on October 3, 2011 [1 favorite]
Don't date people that don't care about your feelings.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:54 PM on October 3, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:54 PM on October 3, 2011 [3 favorites]
Any guy who tells you it's YOUR problem or YOUR fault that you're upset and should just get the hell over it already is a jerk. I don't know if he's abusive or not, but that kind of shit is one of the traits of abusers, so it's kinda red-flaggy.
I don't think anyone in this thread is surprised to hear this guy has very little boyfriend experience. There's a reason for that.
Why did you two break up the first time? Was he doing this then, too?
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:41 PM on October 3, 2011 [1 favorite]
I don't think anyone in this thread is surprised to hear this guy has very little boyfriend experience. There's a reason for that.
Why did you two break up the first time? Was he doing this then, too?
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:41 PM on October 3, 2011 [1 favorite]
EndsOfInvention, the problem with that is that he doesn't think there is a problem. He thinks I have a problem.
So make it his problem - tell him that the way he chooses to communicate and the lack of consideration he is showing for your feelings in the process is a massive problem for you and that, unless he is willing to engage on discussion about this with you and acknowledge the distress he is causing, he is going to lose you in the near future. If that does not get his attention you at least know where you stand.
posted by koahiatamadl at 9:00 PM on October 3, 2011
So make it his problem - tell him that the way he chooses to communicate and the lack of consideration he is showing for your feelings in the process is a massive problem for you and that, unless he is willing to engage on discussion about this with you and acknowledge the distress he is causing, he is going to lose you in the near future. If that does not get his attention you at least know where you stand.
posted by koahiatamadl at 9:00 PM on October 3, 2011
So either he thinks he's always right or he's too much of a jerk to do simple human things like compromise.
DTMFA.
posted by bardic at 10:02 PM on October 3, 2011
DTMFA.
posted by bardic at 10:02 PM on October 3, 2011
That isn't stubbornness, it's pride (in the biblical sense). He's always right, and by definition everyone else is wrong. He places himself first, and won't put you ahead of himself.
That is a wonderful combination for emotional manipulation, dishonesty, and despair. Go to couples counselling, or run away.
posted by blue_beetle at 5:40 AM on October 4, 2011
That is a wonderful combination for emotional manipulation, dishonesty, and despair. Go to couples counselling, or run away.
posted by blue_beetle at 5:40 AM on October 4, 2011
Response by poster: jenfullmoon, because of religion reasons. He was strictly Catholic, and didn't want to have pre-marital sex. I really, really did. We were friends for a long time before we dated, and I felt close to him then, and even closer to him for the past few years.
But it doesn't matter. I have been trying to talk to him for the past 24 hours. We keep going in circles. This morning, I took phearlez's advice, by telling him "I don't understand why it isn't enough that you know it bothers me." I didn't really get anywhere with that.
I was simultaneously reading this thread and trying to get him to see my pov over gchat (we're both at work). I took medea42's advice and asked him "what matters more to you: being right, or being with me?" He said being right. I broke up with him over fucking gchat.
*sigh* There goes the end of an otherwise great relationship and a 16-year-long friendship. Therapy, here I come, as soon as I can afford you.
Thanks, everyone. You have been very helpful.
posted by doyouknowwhoIam? at 8:06 AM on October 4, 2011 [20 favorites]
But it doesn't matter. I have been trying to talk to him for the past 24 hours. We keep going in circles. This morning, I took phearlez's advice, by telling him "I don't understand why it isn't enough that you know it bothers me." I didn't really get anywhere with that.
I was simultaneously reading this thread and trying to get him to see my pov over gchat (we're both at work). I took medea42's advice and asked him "what matters more to you: being right, or being with me?" He said being right. I broke up with him over fucking gchat.
*sigh* There goes the end of an otherwise great relationship and a 16-year-long friendship. Therapy, here I come, as soon as I can afford you.
Thanks, everyone. You have been very helpful.
posted by doyouknowwhoIam? at 8:06 AM on October 4, 2011 [20 favorites]
Sorry to hear that, dear. Take care of yourself.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 8:30 AM on October 4, 2011
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 8:30 AM on October 4, 2011
What an asshole. Christ.
posted by garlic at 8:30 AM on October 4, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by garlic at 8:30 AM on October 4, 2011 [3 favorites]
While I'm really sorry that's the way it went, it sounds like you did the right thing. Where by "right", I mean "the thing that is going to be healthier for you in the long run and end up with you being happier"
posted by rmd1023 at 8:31 AM on October 4, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by rmd1023 at 8:31 AM on October 4, 2011 [2 favorites]
I'm really sorry it happened this way. I am amazed that he actually responded "being right," and proud of your strength for breaking up on the spot.
Just for anyone reading, though, and in case he sucks you back in (common in manipulative situations), couples therapy is generally not recommended for couples that have an abusive/manipulative element - it's too easy for the manipulative half to, well, manipulate the other partner and the counselor.
posted by Pax at 8:38 AM on October 4, 2011 [2 favorites]
Just for anyone reading, though, and in case he sucks you back in (common in manipulative situations), couples therapy is generally not recommended for couples that have an abusive/manipulative element - it's too easy for the manipulative half to, well, manipulate the other partner and the counselor.
posted by Pax at 8:38 AM on October 4, 2011 [2 favorites]
Wow. I hope he'll have a long and happy life alone with his correctness.
I guess I'm glad for you that he was honest enough to say he'd rather be right than happy, so you knew where you stood. Sorry this happened. :(
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:00 AM on October 4, 2011 [2 favorites]
I guess I'm glad for you that he was honest enough to say he'd rather be right than happy, so you knew where you stood. Sorry this happened. :(
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:00 AM on October 4, 2011 [2 favorites]
Hmm... yeah I would have to agree with the others; he's just plain stubborn, his relationship experience can't really be to blame for that as it appears to be a personality trait. This sounds like it is really frustrating for you and could definitely inhibit your communication as a couple. For you two, it will be a constant struggle of who is right and who is wrong while getting nowhere near a compromise because you are both so focused on sticking to your guns. I think every couple should be able to reach a compromise and when one of you is refusing to even meet you a quarter of the halfway... you aren't winning the race now are you? If you feel like this is going to be a big problem it's best you break it off. Especially if he doesn't seem to care about how you feel.
posted by Chelsaroo650 at 10:06 AM on October 4, 2011
posted by Chelsaroo650 at 10:06 AM on October 4, 2011
it sounds like you've had a lot of experience in relationships, and that you will make an excellent partner for the next lucky guy that comes your way. be sad for a few days, enjoy your new found freedom, and move forward ;)
posted by BlueMartini7 at 11:18 AM on October 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by BlueMartini7 at 11:18 AM on October 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
Oh you poor kid. I am SO sorry for you but so impressed by your balls to do this. It sucks so hard but i'd bet serious money you just did something that'll save you so much pain and heartache down the line....
posted by tristeza at 10:00 PM on October 4, 2011
posted by tristeza at 10:00 PM on October 4, 2011
That blows, but I add to the voices saying good for you for standing up for the way you want to be treated. People aren't mind-readers, so if we're not our own advocates for what we want then how can we expect them to give it to us?
He decided he wasn't willing to treat you the way you wanted to be treated. That's too bad, but temper "there goes the end of an otherwise great relationship and a 16-year-long friendship" a little bit. Is a parachute with a big hole in it "otherwise great?" Or to use the classic joke, "Other than that, how did you like the play, Mrs Lincoln?"
Maybe this dude's giant flaw makes him acceptable friend material but not a partner; maybe someday you'll be able to enjoy him on that level again... and go home to someone who respects your needs enough to sometimes feel uncomfortable and compromise even when he doesn't think he should have to.
posted by phearlez at 8:21 AM on October 5, 2011 [4 favorites]
He decided he wasn't willing to treat you the way you wanted to be treated. That's too bad, but temper "there goes the end of an otherwise great relationship and a 16-year-long friendship" a little bit. Is a parachute with a big hole in it "otherwise great?" Or to use the classic joke, "Other than that, how did you like the play, Mrs Lincoln?"
Maybe this dude's giant flaw makes him acceptable friend material but not a partner; maybe someday you'll be able to enjoy him on that level again... and go home to someone who respects your needs enough to sometimes feel uncomfortable and compromise even when he doesn't think he should have to.
posted by phearlez at 8:21 AM on October 5, 2011 [4 favorites]
I took medea42's advice and asked him "what matters more to you: being right, or being with me?" He said being right. I broke up with him over fucking gchat.
You made the correct decision. Well done! The guy's an idiot.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 2:17 AM on October 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
You made the correct decision. Well done! The guy's an idiot.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 2:17 AM on October 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: I realize this is kind of threadsitting, but for anyone that searches for advice like this in the future: I've broken up with him, cried a lot, sat around in shock a lot, apologized for the way I broke up with him because he wouldn't talk to me or see me and expressed my sincere hopes that he find someone he can be happy with. He commented on facebook that he missed me, responded to my email by blaming me for the break-up, and still hasn't apologized for hurting my feelings... which still hurt.
Anyone for a drink?
posted by doyouknowwhoIam? at 12:35 PM on October 7, 2011 [2 favorites]
Anyone for a drink?
posted by doyouknowwhoIam? at 12:35 PM on October 7, 2011 [2 favorites]
I don't see talking to this guy about this further as likely to give you closure, because it sounds like he has been (from his POV) martyred in the cause of right and reason on top of continuing to do the same basic thing. What he needed to understand--to his core--was that being right doesn't make someone not an asshole. It's conceivable he could understand that you don't go around telling children their handwriting sucks, you don't tell new mothers their babies are wrinkly and gross, you don't shout at waitstaff who make mistakes, you don't tell people who're admitting they were wrong that they were stupid to doubt you in the first place, and so on. It's conceivable he could understand those things, and yet he failed to give you such ordinary courtesy and respect. Why not? Very likely because he does not in fact respect you and wants you to defer to him as a general rule. You've done the right thing here.
posted by Monsieur Caution at 11:35 PM on October 7, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Monsieur Caution at 11:35 PM on October 7, 2011 [1 favorite]
I always try to give people the benefit of the doubt, but in this case it looks like you did the right thing. But I think I'd attribute it to him being more clueless and emotionally unequipped, than being knowingly callous and an outright jerk, and there's a big difference (I'd at least hope he's not sitting around thinking, "Heh, I showed her."). And it's probably been so hard because it's not an obvious case of the latter.
Don't apologize for how you handled it, heck, it's probably only reinforces his belief that he's right. It's one thing to regret what the situation was, and how it turned out, but there shouldn't be regret over knowing that something had to be done, and handling the part that actually was under your control.
posted by TheSecretDecoderRing at 3:54 AM on October 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
Don't apologize for how you handled it, heck, it's probably only reinforces his belief that he's right. It's one thing to regret what the situation was, and how it turned out, but there shouldn't be regret over knowing that something had to be done, and handling the part that actually was under your control.
posted by TheSecretDecoderRing at 3:54 AM on October 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by peacheater at 1:47 PM on October 3, 2011 [12 favorites]