Killer kitty
September 29, 2011 11:13 PM Subscribe
Our cat, who in the previous 6 years has not brought home any animals, has brought home 3 dead rats. Ew! What's up with that? Why now? Should we put a bell on him? Is he fighting off a rat infestation? Should we do anything about it?
* He's an indoor/outdoor cat. Was that way when we took him on,
* It's been a bit of a cold snap here in Seattle. And he's been kind of frisky in the mornings, which is when he's caught these things. He is most active between 5 and 7 in the morning.
* He's not very smart. Though he watches squirrels we've previosuly considered him too incompetant a cat to catch anything.
* It's pretty incredible that he can get them into teh house really - he has to climb and do a jump to get to deck which has the cat flap.
* We'd kind of like him to stop. The only we can think of is a collar with a bell, but we are open to suggestions.
* We've seen no sign of rats around the house, but he's got to be getting them from somewhere.
We've been bagging and disposing of the rats, and wiping down the areas we've found them with disinfectant wipes. We've also told our oldest not to touch any dead animals she finds (our youngets is a baby). Given that we have kids in the house are these sufficient precautions?
Would the cold weather be bringing the rats out/making them easier to catch? Could this be a sign that there is a larger rat colony nearby, and if so do we need to do anything about it?
* He's an indoor/outdoor cat. Was that way when we took him on,
* It's been a bit of a cold snap here in Seattle. And he's been kind of frisky in the mornings, which is when he's caught these things. He is most active between 5 and 7 in the morning.
* He's not very smart. Though he watches squirrels we've previosuly considered him too incompetant a cat to catch anything.
* It's pretty incredible that he can get them into teh house really - he has to climb and do a jump to get to deck which has the cat flap.
* We'd kind of like him to stop. The only we can think of is a collar with a bell, but we are open to suggestions.
* We've seen no sign of rats around the house, but he's got to be getting them from somewhere.
We've been bagging and disposing of the rats, and wiping down the areas we've found them with disinfectant wipes. We've also told our oldest not to touch any dead animals she finds (our youngets is a baby). Given that we have kids in the house are these sufficient precautions?
Would the cold weather be bringing the rats out/making them easier to catch? Could this be a sign that there is a larger rat colony nearby, and if so do we need to do anything about it?
Possibly more rats nearby, but I gotta tell you the truth...
You have an indoor/outdoor cat? Yeah. This is just kinda what they do!
Mine does this when there have been changes in the food or household. It's a message, for sure, I just don't know of what type.
My stone cold killer of a cat (who normally brought home dead offerings) brought home a live baby rat and dropped it at my husband's feet for him to "prove" himself the week we got married and moved in together. She would also leave dead mice for me or favored neighbors, on the doorstep.
What has changed? That is usually the answer why.
Assuage your kitty and the carnage might end. He/she is following through on some instinct.
What has changed?
posted by jbenben at 12:18 AM on September 30, 2011
You have an indoor/outdoor cat? Yeah. This is just kinda what they do!
Mine does this when there have been changes in the food or household. It's a message, for sure, I just don't know of what type.
My stone cold killer of a cat (who normally brought home dead offerings) brought home a live baby rat and dropped it at my husband's feet for him to "prove" himself the week we got married and moved in together. She would also leave dead mice for me or favored neighbors, on the doorstep.
What has changed? That is usually the answer why.
Assuage your kitty and the carnage might end. He/she is following through on some instinct.
What has changed?
posted by jbenben at 12:18 AM on September 30, 2011
Also.
My husband thought a bell was cute for our new kitten three years ago. Did not turn out well for the cat, who is now a psychological mess. Via contrast, my stone cold killer escaped every collar she ever had.
This behavior will abate. Make changes in your household or wait it out.
posted by jbenben at 12:25 AM on September 30, 2011
My husband thought a bell was cute for our new kitten three years ago. Did not turn out well for the cat, who is now a psychological mess. Via contrast, my stone cold killer escaped every collar she ever had.
This behavior will abate. Make changes in your household or wait it out.
posted by jbenben at 12:25 AM on September 30, 2011
My puppy laid a dead snake out in front of my bedroom door this morning. Pretty sure the roommate's cat did the killing, but the pup was still crazy with the wiggles as she watched me pick up her gift... and sadface when I put it in the trash. I gave her lots of love and praise though, so she cheered up pretty quickly :)
Of course, its also possible that the cat brought the snake as a gift for my puppy... he loves her so much he cries if she's not out in the house to chew on him. When I eventually move out of this house, I may have to see about taking the cat with me because these two are so close it might actually be cruel to separate them.
posted by myShanon at 12:27 AM on September 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
Of course, its also possible that the cat brought the snake as a gift for my puppy... he loves her so much he cries if she's not out in the house to chew on him. When I eventually move out of this house, I may have to see about taking the cat with me because these two are so close it might actually be cruel to separate them.
posted by myShanon at 12:27 AM on September 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
We live in Portland and there has been a rat problem off and on here for the last several years. What we did:
-Laid traps indoors.
-Looked for and filled holes in our yard that looked like they could harbor rats.
-Called the county vector control district. They gave us outdoor traps and suggestions for minimizing the things in our yard that could be attracting them. Bird food is a biggie, as I recall, or the produce of your fruit trees, if you have any. Bird baths, anything that holds water is also probably not-great.
As for getting the cat to stop...I'm not sure belling the cat will do any good -- that assumes that rats will learn to associate the sound of the bell with danger, and I don't know if you can count on that. It certainly doesn't work for birds.
I think your best bet is to reduce the attractiveness of your home to rats. Rats out of kitty's sight = rats out of kitty's mind. Your local vector control agency would be my first stop.
posted by That's Numberwang! at 12:50 AM on September 30, 2011
-Laid traps indoors.
-Looked for and filled holes in our yard that looked like they could harbor rats.
-Called the county vector control district. They gave us outdoor traps and suggestions for minimizing the things in our yard that could be attracting them. Bird food is a biggie, as I recall, or the produce of your fruit trees, if you have any. Bird baths, anything that holds water is also probably not-great.
As for getting the cat to stop...I'm not sure belling the cat will do any good -- that assumes that rats will learn to associate the sound of the bell with danger, and I don't know if you can count on that. It certainly doesn't work for birds.
I think your best bet is to reduce the attractiveness of your home to rats. Rats out of kitty's sight = rats out of kitty's mind. Your local vector control agency would be my first stop.
posted by That's Numberwang! at 12:50 AM on September 30, 2011
If your cat hasn't worn a collar before and you decide to try it, be very careful about fit, get a quick release collar, and watch the cat closely the first day it is on. We tried our cat with a collar and bell, and although it was quick release, the mechanism got stuck, she got her jaw under the collar trying to remove it, and was stuck with her mouth open and gagged by the collar all night until we found her in the morning. (She was okay in the end, but very stressed, and the wire hoop the bell was on had got stuck in her cheek!) I can't bring myself to try a collar on her anymore, although my last cat was just fine with one. (And with that last cat, it did reduce the frequency of her catching birds, at least).
As for the rat thing, if there's a lot of rats around your yard, isn't it preferable that the cat is killing them? Rats are not great for other wildlife, and if the weather is cold and wet, they might decide to move into the house. I'd be happy that they are being culled. I think that disinfectant would be plenty to protect your kids from rat germs. If they ever go outside and touch anything at all (fence, grass, tree), they are being exposed to plenty worse from all the critters, humans, and their waste that have touched those things before.
posted by lollusc at 1:32 AM on September 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
As for the rat thing, if there's a lot of rats around your yard, isn't it preferable that the cat is killing them? Rats are not great for other wildlife, and if the weather is cold and wet, they might decide to move into the house. I'd be happy that they are being culled. I think that disinfectant would be plenty to protect your kids from rat germs. If they ever go outside and touch anything at all (fence, grass, tree), they are being exposed to plenty worse from all the critters, humans, and their waste that have touched those things before.
posted by lollusc at 1:32 AM on September 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
Maybe your cat sensed your underestimation of him and sought to prove you wrong? Else he just thinks you're the bees knees.
I once made the mistake of being super friendly with a neighbor's outdoor cat. He responded by laying several beautiful dead birds on my doorstep over the course of a couple weeks. Like he almost knew that they were aesthetically pleasing, and wanted me to have them. It was a little heartbreaking.
posted by swingbraid at 2:19 AM on September 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
I once made the mistake of being super friendly with a neighbor's outdoor cat. He responded by laying several beautiful dead birds on my doorstep over the course of a couple weeks. Like he almost knew that they were aesthetically pleasing, and wanted me to have them. It was a little heartbreaking.
posted by swingbraid at 2:19 AM on September 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
Have you looked into those sonic devices? I can't offhand think what its called, but you plug it into a wall in the house and it emits a sound that rodents can hear. Drives them nuts. I found this out the hard way by having pet rats when a neighbor put one in their house near the shared wall. One of my ratties bashed himself to death trying to get out of the aquarium, the neighbor saw me disposing of it and proudly told me what he'd done. He was nice enough to unplug the device when he found out mine were pets rather than pests. As a thank you I picked up some traps for is house :)
posted by myShanon at 2:46 AM on September 30, 2011
posted by myShanon at 2:46 AM on September 30, 2011
Your kitty is bringing you presents! You should treat your cat with praise when he does this. He is not only showing love for you, but keeping fit and healthy and your home rat-free.
Now, how are you sure that he caught them outside? Isn't it more likely that they were inside? I'd go with some small-animal-and-child-friendly rat traps. (No poison please -- my friend's dog got into one of those and died.)
Also, here's a thought: some cats eat their prey. Maybe that's what he'd been doing, but the rats are too big to eat so he's sharing. (Remember: It's the thought that counts.)
posted by DoubleLune at 3:33 AM on September 30, 2011 [10 favorites]
Now, how are you sure that he caught them outside? Isn't it more likely that they were inside? I'd go with some small-animal-and-child-friendly rat traps. (No poison please -- my friend's dog got into one of those and died.)
Also, here's a thought: some cats eat their prey. Maybe that's what he'd been doing, but the rats are too big to eat so he's sharing. (Remember: It's the thought that counts.)
posted by DoubleLune at 3:33 AM on September 30, 2011 [10 favorites]
My cat very occasionally brings decapitated pigeons into the house. (I have no idea why he always takes the heads off first, but he does.) He manages to escape every collar we put on him, but to be honest, we'd never really consider putting a bell on him because it sounds like it would be maddening.
Is it actually a problem that he's doing this? Our cat will scatter feathers all over the place when he brings home a dead bird, but it happens so infrequently that it's not really an issue - we just clean up the feathers and throw away the body itself. If he was doing it all the time, we'd obviously want to try getting him to stop, but it only happens once in a blue moon. It sounds like your cat is bringing in rats more frequently than that, but is it causing any major problems?
posted by anaximander at 4:31 AM on September 30, 2011
Is it actually a problem that he's doing this? Our cat will scatter feathers all over the place when he brings home a dead bird, but it happens so infrequently that it's not really an issue - we just clean up the feathers and throw away the body itself. If he was doing it all the time, we'd obviously want to try getting him to stop, but it only happens once in a blue moon. It sounds like your cat is bringing in rats more frequently than that, but is it causing any major problems?
posted by anaximander at 4:31 AM on September 30, 2011
Do not put a collar and bell on a cat who goes outdoors. He could get hung up on something and hurt or killed, plus cats have much better hearing than we do and the bell would drive him nuts. If he is killing rats he is doing exactly the job he was meant to do, rodent control. And he is bringing you gifts to show what a great hunter he is, and how well he is doing his job.
Surely you don't want rats to proliferate around your house. My cats bring me chipmunks and birds, which is gross, but it they got a rat I'd give them a reward. Make sure your kitty is up on his shots, and have the vet check him for parasites if he is eating the rats.
Other than that, accept that he is a cat being a cat. Kitties are predators. Those of us humans who serve them have to live with that.
posted by mermayd at 5:16 AM on September 30, 2011 [4 favorites]
Surely you don't want rats to proliferate around your house. My cats bring me chipmunks and birds, which is gross, but it they got a rat I'd give them a reward. Make sure your kitty is up on his shots, and have the vet check him for parasites if he is eating the rats.
Other than that, accept that he is a cat being a cat. Kitties are predators. Those of us humans who serve them have to live with that.
posted by mermayd at 5:16 AM on September 30, 2011 [4 favorites]
Cats kill rodents. They enjoy it. It's good for them, and good for the neighbourhood. Be proud of your lethal pussy! Ahem. That came out wrong.
posted by Decani at 5:25 AM on September 30, 2011 [4 favorites]
posted by Decani at 5:25 AM on September 30, 2011 [4 favorites]
You could get rid of your cat flap and make sure your cat doesn't have a dead thing before letting him enter your house. You can't stop him, even if you keep him inside he will hunt anything that comes inside. Some cats are killers.
posted by Gor-ella at 6:27 AM on September 30, 2011
posted by Gor-ella at 6:27 AM on September 30, 2011
You can't stop a cat killing small animals any more than you can train a rabbit to stop eating dandelions. They may be kittens in your front room but they're tigers in your back garden. Your better off with dead rats on your doorstep than live rats under your house.
posted by joannemullen at 7:16 AM on September 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by joannemullen at 7:16 AM on September 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
In addition to the other folks saying the negatives of bell collars, I offer this.
We had a declawed* cat who was taking down birds so she got a bell collar. I witnessed her stalk a blue jay, and take it out (using her back claws!) with barely the slightest ring from the bell. So unless you are just trying to train a super-hunter, don't bother.
*Yes, we know better now.
posted by utsutsu at 7:33 AM on September 30, 2011
We had a declawed* cat who was taking down birds so she got a bell collar. I witnessed her stalk a blue jay, and take it out (using her back claws!) with barely the slightest ring from the bell. So unless you are just trying to train a super-hunter, don't bother.
*Yes, we know better now.
posted by utsutsu at 7:33 AM on September 30, 2011
This is what cats do: What Jeff Killed.
This is what kids do: Dead Squirrel Girl.
Somehow both cats and kids keep on keeping on. I wouldn't worry too much about either.
posted by cjorgensen at 7:57 AM on September 30, 2011
This is what kids do: Dead Squirrel Girl.
Somehow both cats and kids keep on keeping on. I wouldn't worry too much about either.
posted by cjorgensen at 7:57 AM on September 30, 2011
A cat question without pictures? There are rules against such things! :)
Cats are weird. And natural born hunters. If your cat goes outdoors, chances are it's killing things (as you've realized). That's what they do, and why they're domesticated in the first place -- they provide this service to humans in exchange for shelter and head scritches. It's also endless entertainment for us human servants when the hunting is done indoors trying to catch a fly. There's also not a lot you can do to prevent it, short of making it impossible for kitty to get in the house with a giant rat in it's mouth.
I wouldn't worry about it. Now, if your cat brings in a still-alive flying squirrel that attaches itself to your 20ft ceiling and you can't get it down, then it becomes a bigger problem...
posted by cgg at 8:19 AM on September 30, 2011
Cats are weird. And natural born hunters. If your cat goes outdoors, chances are it's killing things (as you've realized). That's what they do, and why they're domesticated in the first place -- they provide this service to humans in exchange for shelter and head scritches. It's also endless entertainment for us human servants when the hunting is done indoors trying to catch a fly. There's also not a lot you can do to prevent it, short of making it impossible for kitty to get in the house with a giant rat in it's mouth.
I wouldn't worry about it. Now, if your cat brings in a still-alive flying squirrel that attaches itself to your 20ft ceiling and you can't get it down, then it becomes a bigger problem...
posted by cgg at 8:19 AM on September 30, 2011
Cats I've had who've previously shown no hunting ability, only to turn up one day with something very dead, seem to have done it for one of two reasons - the prey was an easy kill, the target was ill or already incapacitated in some way when it was located, or it was a pied wagtail; or the cat was upset or stressed, like the first time (to my knowledge) that she'd ever been left alone, when her kitty companion spent the day at the vets getting her teeth cleaned.
I would be a little bit concerned that someone is putting rat poison down somewhere nearby, which is making them easy for your cat to get.
Or maybe your cat is expressing their discontent about something - have there been any changes recently?
Or maybe he has just been toying with you for the last 6 years. Remember, cats like playing the long game.
posted by Helga-woo at 8:20 AM on September 30, 2011
I would be a little bit concerned that someone is putting rat poison down somewhere nearby, which is making them easy for your cat to get.
Or maybe your cat is expressing their discontent about something - have there been any changes recently?
Or maybe he has just been toying with you for the last 6 years. Remember, cats like playing the long game.
posted by Helga-woo at 8:20 AM on September 30, 2011
Is there any chance he's finding rats that are already dead, or sick? If they've been killed with poison, you might want to be careful about his playing with / snacking on them.
posted by amtho at 8:40 AM on September 30, 2011
posted by amtho at 8:40 AM on September 30, 2011
Has there been any excavation nearby? Most stories I hear about sudden appearance of rats in cities follows on from sewer repairs in nearby streets.
I second and third not putting a bell on your cat. He's doing the job we've contracted with his species to do for 10,000 years, and as animals that enjoy their stealth, a bell is bound to drive him to distraction.
posted by zadcat at 8:42 AM on September 30, 2011
I second and third not putting a bell on your cat. He's doing the job we've contracted with his species to do for 10,000 years, and as animals that enjoy their stealth, a bell is bound to drive him to distraction.
posted by zadcat at 8:42 AM on September 30, 2011
Response by poster: Cat update: No dead rat this morning. That we've seen.
posted by Artw at 10:17 AM on September 30, 2011
posted by Artw at 10:17 AM on September 30, 2011
My dog started killing things after we fostered a friend's Jack Russell. She learned by watching the other dog, and now she's really into hunting. Our only solution was to make 'Murder' her middle name. Toulouse Murder Lautrec.
posted by kamikazegopher at 12:32 PM on September 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by kamikazegopher at 12:32 PM on September 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
Cats catching rodents is problematic, both to the cat and to the owners. I had a feral cat once that was so full of tapeworm eggs it's a wonder she hadn't exploded. The cat kept herself reinfected by catching rats and mice. Bleah. Get your cat to the vet and get on a regular deworm schedule.
I've always been told that lepto is harbored in the wild rodent reservoir and can be passed to humans also.
This website confirms that.
Hanta virus, bubonic plague, typhus, salmonella, and rat bite fever are other significant issues. That said, my rotten kats bring in mice, pocket gophers, and occasionally a rat (from the hay barn,) and we're not dead yet.
Cleaning up after your cat's treasures with disinfectant and handling the rodents with gloves for proper disposal should be adequite. I would assume there are rats close by and rat proof your area as much as possible. Make sure there are no rubbish piles or outbuildings that could attract them. Rodents can sometimes live a long time in a house before the population will be large enough to be brought to your attention. Dead and dying rodents are no problem, but rotten cats often bring in 'toys' for later, or accidently let one loose, and then you have a rat hiding in your house, even if there is no actual infestation.
I wouldn't bother belling your cat for all the reasons listed above, but I'd see if you can keep the cat in during the times it would be actively hunting--early morning, evening, and nights. Rodents seem to be less active late mornings and in the afternoons, also. If your cat gets pissy about being kept in, I'd bribe it with some yummy treat to stay in. Get that cat full, or even a little bit fat and lazy. (Not obese, just not so likely to hunt from hunger.) Also, wearing it out with play makes a difference in how active a cat will be outside.
If the rodents aren't dead when the cat brings them in, don't pick them up to kill them or put yourself in any danger of a rat bite or fleas getting on you. Put on a hard soled set of footgear and stomp on them quickly and HARD. They'll die immediately, and you can dispose of them and clean up well. If it gives you the grues to think about doing that, chant this mantra: Die, plague carrier, die.
Now, where's my kitteh pics, d*mn it!
posted by BlueHorse at 4:15 PM on September 30, 2011
I've always been told that lepto is harbored in the wild rodent reservoir and can be passed to humans also.
This website confirms that.
Hanta virus, bubonic plague, typhus, salmonella, and rat bite fever are other significant issues. That said, my rotten kats bring in mice, pocket gophers, and occasionally a rat (from the hay barn,) and we're not dead yet.
Cleaning up after your cat's treasures with disinfectant and handling the rodents with gloves for proper disposal should be adequite. I would assume there are rats close by and rat proof your area as much as possible. Make sure there are no rubbish piles or outbuildings that could attract them. Rodents can sometimes live a long time in a house before the population will be large enough to be brought to your attention. Dead and dying rodents are no problem, but rotten cats often bring in 'toys' for later, or accidently let one loose, and then you have a rat hiding in your house, even if there is no actual infestation.
I wouldn't bother belling your cat for all the reasons listed above, but I'd see if you can keep the cat in during the times it would be actively hunting--early morning, evening, and nights. Rodents seem to be less active late mornings and in the afternoons, also. If your cat gets pissy about being kept in, I'd bribe it with some yummy treat to stay in. Get that cat full, or even a little bit fat and lazy. (Not obese, just not so likely to hunt from hunger.) Also, wearing it out with play makes a difference in how active a cat will be outside.
If the rodents aren't dead when the cat brings them in, don't pick them up to kill them or put yourself in any danger of a rat bite or fleas getting on you. Put on a hard soled set of footgear and stomp on them quickly and HARD. They'll die immediately, and you can dispose of them and clean up well. If it gives you the grues to think about doing that, chant this mantra: Die, plague carrier, die.
Now, where's my kitteh pics, d*mn it!
posted by BlueHorse at 4:15 PM on September 30, 2011
Response by poster: No rat today or yesterday. Maybe his three rat run was a mysterious one-off.
I did, however, find a flea on him yesterday. Argh! He hadn't had his flea medecine for a while so I reapplied it, thinking gloomy thoughts about plague all the while.
Now, where's my kitteh pics, d*mn it!"
This is what he looks like when he's not killing things.
posted by Artw at 10:42 AM on October 2, 2011
I did, however, find a flea on him yesterday. Argh! He hadn't had his flea medecine for a while so I reapplied it, thinking gloomy thoughts about plague all the while.
Now, where's my kitteh pics, d*mn it!"
This is what he looks like when he's not killing things.
posted by Artw at 10:42 AM on October 2, 2011
My hunting cat was also a gray tabby with white feet. They rock!
posted by zadcat at 1:51 PM on October 2, 2011
posted by zadcat at 1:51 PM on October 2, 2011
Response by poster: And so I was awake with the baby at 6:00am, sitting on the sofa giving her a bottle of milk, when I hear the cat come in, deposit something on the ground with a soft thump and then strole off. Then the "something", a five
A certain amount of panic folloed and attempts to secure the rat were fumbled, resulting in the thing escaping, current wherabouts unknown.
So now I have a cat that brings in rats AND a rat somewhere about the house. Aggh.
I've placed a live trap near where we last saw it, but TBH I'm not even sure it's large enough. I can't really use poison or the spring loaded traps because of kitty and kids.
Any advice?
(Oh, and we had a cold night lats night... just like we had a cold spell when he first started catching them. Hmm. )
posted by Artw at 12:53 PM on November 1, 2011
A certain amount of panic folloed and attempts to secure the rat were fumbled, resulting in the thing escaping, current wherabouts unknown.
So now I have a cat that brings in rats AND a rat somewhere about the house. Aggh.
I've placed a live trap near where we last saw it, but TBH I'm not even sure it's large enough. I can't really use poison or the spring loaded traps because of kitty and kids.
Any advice?
(Oh, and we had a cold night lats night... just like we had a cold spell when he first started catching them. Hmm. )
posted by Artw at 12:53 PM on November 1, 2011
It sounds like you have a cat door... I would close it up and start letting your cat in/out when you want him to go in or out. We have indoor/outdoor cats and they learn to sit at the door/beg when they want to go out, and in (the one learned to tap on the front window to get our attention). They've been no worse for this, and we can keep them in when we need to (like when we hear strange howling) and keep other things out. Our younger cat tried to bring in his kills a couple times, but when we wouldn't let him, he learned that dead animals stay by the front door.
posted by DoubleLune at 1:03 PM on November 1, 2011
posted by DoubleLune at 1:03 PM on November 1, 2011
Response by poster: Closing the catflap has been considered, but he comes and goes in the night A LOT, so we are very reluctant.
Our new unwelcome guest may change this.
posted by Artw at 2:54 PM on November 1, 2011
Our new unwelcome guest may change this.
posted by Artw at 2:54 PM on November 1, 2011
This thread is closed to new comments.
As for whether you can get the cat to stop, I sort of doubt it. I'm not a cat person, but my understanding about this is that they're under the impression that they're doing you a favor by bringing you disgusting dead things. That's simply how they show affection.
A bell might possibly work, but I kinda doubt it. I've watched a cat take down a bird and a squirrel, and they are remarkably efficient. It was never even close.
posted by Gilbert at 12:16 AM on September 30, 2011