Silence is golden. Or is it?
August 25, 2011 3:17 PM Subscribe
I'm the (frustrated) aunt of two children who don't obey. How do I gently tell my perfectionist sister that her "discipline" is not working?
I am a female, 34 years old. My sister is two years older. She's a physician. Married to my brother-in-law, a physician also. My sister is brilliant, hilarious, easygoing and an amazing human being. She's also a consummate perfectionist.
My sister and BIL have two children. We'll call them Jack and Jill. Jack is turning 8 next month (2nd grade), Jill is turning 6 in a few months (kindergarten).
Jack and Jill are extremely bright, amazing, adorable kids. Jack is cerebral, sensitive, a bit shy, with an engineering mind. Much like his parents. Jill is a no-holds-barred, wide open actress -- always wants to be on display, loves to sing and dance, thrives on attention, is ridiculously adorable and precocious.
Jack and Jill don't obey and/or respect their mother. They've never been taught to. She'll ask them to do something 18 times before Jack or Jill even acknowledge they heard the request. Idle threats are bandied about, there's a lot of, "I'm going to count to three!"s. But even those tactics are only employed after the original request has been massaged into a compromise more palatable to Jack and Jill.
In fact, everything is a compromise. The goal is peace at all costs. Everyone should avoid stirring the ire or whine of the children (or the impatience/annoyance of the husband).
Jill is tragically becoming a snotty, mean little girl with no respect for others. She is the discipline problem in her kindergarten class (surprise, surprise). Recent example - she hit her classmate on the back. Teacher shows Jill the mark she just left on the poor girl's back. Teacher says something to the effect of, "See that? You hurt her back. See how red that is?" Jill's response? A dismissive, haughty, "It's not that red."
Yeah. She's that girl. Ugh.
Jack is less of a problem, but still has discipline issues. But he's a people pleaser so he cares about being good (whereas Jill? couldn't care less). He wants to do good. But he can be just as mean and snotty as Jill sometimes, and he gets away with it just the same.
My sister wears the pants in the family. She says jump, husband asks how high. But, interestingly, husband is feared by Jack and Jill. Probably because he raises his voice and is very impatient. But my sister? Not feared one bit.
My sister is not dumb. She's aware that there's a problem. She does all the time outs. She does the sending to bed without watching the 15 minutes of TV before bedtime. She does follow through with consequences when it's something serious enough (i.e. above event at school), but it's almost like the consequences are so minor that it's not even a deterrent (so what if I can't watch TV? Big whoop).
She's so frightened to not be perfect that she cannot hear criticism without feeling personally attacked. She never asks our (my mother, me, my brother) for advice. After all, we don't have doctorate degrees, we can't possibly have good advice. Furthermore, I am single with no children - what could I know about raising them?
But it's becoming maddening. I feel so, so, so sorry for these kids. It's not their fault they're turning out this way. She needs to stop making excuses for their behavior, stop worrying about them liking her and become a mother who is listened to and obeyed. And yeah, she'll probably hear a gazillion I HATE YOU SO MUCH, MOM!s on the path to getting there. But, geez, suck it up! I'm afraid if she doesn't get a handle on them now it's soon going to be too late.
So, the issue is... do I say anything to her? Do I approach her about this? Do I sit back and say nothing? I don't know what to do! She'd be crushed to hear someone didn't think she was performing this role of "mother" correctly. She does so many things so right as a mom. So very, very right and so very, very wonderful. I'm afraid she'd never really get how much I respect her other amazing mothering skills, and instead only hear that I think she's a big failure. I don't want to hurt her feelings, but it's almost like watching a train wreck in slo-mo. I'm really frustrated.
I desperately need advice.
I am a female, 34 years old. My sister is two years older. She's a physician. Married to my brother-in-law, a physician also. My sister is brilliant, hilarious, easygoing and an amazing human being. She's also a consummate perfectionist.
My sister and BIL have two children. We'll call them Jack and Jill. Jack is turning 8 next month (2nd grade), Jill is turning 6 in a few months (kindergarten).
Jack and Jill are extremely bright, amazing, adorable kids. Jack is cerebral, sensitive, a bit shy, with an engineering mind. Much like his parents. Jill is a no-holds-barred, wide open actress -- always wants to be on display, loves to sing and dance, thrives on attention, is ridiculously adorable and precocious.
Jack and Jill don't obey and/or respect their mother. They've never been taught to. She'll ask them to do something 18 times before Jack or Jill even acknowledge they heard the request. Idle threats are bandied about, there's a lot of, "I'm going to count to three!"s. But even those tactics are only employed after the original request has been massaged into a compromise more palatable to Jack and Jill.
In fact, everything is a compromise. The goal is peace at all costs. Everyone should avoid stirring the ire or whine of the children (or the impatience/annoyance of the husband).
Jill is tragically becoming a snotty, mean little girl with no respect for others. She is the discipline problem in her kindergarten class (surprise, surprise). Recent example - she hit her classmate on the back. Teacher shows Jill the mark she just left on the poor girl's back. Teacher says something to the effect of, "See that? You hurt her back. See how red that is?" Jill's response? A dismissive, haughty, "It's not that red."
Yeah. She's that girl. Ugh.
Jack is less of a problem, but still has discipline issues. But he's a people pleaser so he cares about being good (whereas Jill? couldn't care less). He wants to do good. But he can be just as mean and snotty as Jill sometimes, and he gets away with it just the same.
My sister wears the pants in the family. She says jump, husband asks how high. But, interestingly, husband is feared by Jack and Jill. Probably because he raises his voice and is very impatient. But my sister? Not feared one bit.
My sister is not dumb. She's aware that there's a problem. She does all the time outs. She does the sending to bed without watching the 15 minutes of TV before bedtime. She does follow through with consequences when it's something serious enough (i.e. above event at school), but it's almost like the consequences are so minor that it's not even a deterrent (so what if I can't watch TV? Big whoop).
She's so frightened to not be perfect that she cannot hear criticism without feeling personally attacked. She never asks our (my mother, me, my brother) for advice. After all, we don't have doctorate degrees, we can't possibly have good advice. Furthermore, I am single with no children - what could I know about raising them?
But it's becoming maddening. I feel so, so, so sorry for these kids. It's not their fault they're turning out this way. She needs to stop making excuses for their behavior, stop worrying about them liking her and become a mother who is listened to and obeyed. And yeah, she'll probably hear a gazillion I HATE YOU SO MUCH, MOM!s on the path to getting there. But, geez, suck it up! I'm afraid if she doesn't get a handle on them now it's soon going to be too late.
So, the issue is... do I say anything to her? Do I approach her about this? Do I sit back and say nothing? I don't know what to do! She'd be crushed to hear someone didn't think she was performing this role of "mother" correctly. She does so many things so right as a mom. So very, very right and so very, very wonderful. I'm afraid she'd never really get how much I respect her other amazing mothering skills, and instead only hear that I think she's a big failure. I don't want to hurt her feelings, but it's almost like watching a train wreck in slo-mo. I'm really frustrated.
I desperately need advice.
So, the issue is... do I say anything to her? Do I approach her about this?
No.
Do I sit back and say nothing?
Yes.
I realize that this is frustrating for you, but they aren't your kids.
posted by Lutoslawski at 3:26 PM on August 25, 2011 [13 favorites]
No.
Do I sit back and say nothing?
Yes.
I realize that this is frustrating for you, but they aren't your kids.
posted by Lutoslawski at 3:26 PM on August 25, 2011 [13 favorites]
I think you should say something (though I have no idea what, or how), because the kids - Jill, especially it sounds like - are the ones who are going to pay for it if their mom and dad don't make changes.
posted by rtha at 3:32 PM on August 25, 2011
posted by rtha at 3:32 PM on August 25, 2011
Agree that you shouldn't say anything. I want to add that the behavior you describe doesn't sound unusual for kids of that age.
posted by bq at 3:33 PM on August 25, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by bq at 3:33 PM on August 25, 2011 [3 favorites]
Please, no, do NOT step in or say anything. Not unless your goal is to begin WWIII and have it go on for the next 40 years.
The best thing you can do is demonstrate your support by giving her the room and respect to figure this out herself.
posted by hms71 at 3:33 PM on August 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
The best thing you can do is demonstrate your support by giving her the room and respect to figure this out herself.
posted by hms71 at 3:33 PM on August 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
Advice from the internet: If you aren't compelled to call DSS over something going on in someone else's household, your opinion on how to raise someone's kids doesn't matter.
posted by Nanukthedog at 3:33 PM on August 25, 2011 [9 favorites]
posted by Nanukthedog at 3:33 PM on August 25, 2011 [9 favorites]
Yeah, it's probably best not to say anything. The most you can do is set firm boundaries for behavior when you encounter the kids, and stick them come hell or high water.
Alternative approach: one time, one shot intervention that might turn out good, or bad, depending on how you execute it. So your sister is afraid of not being perfect? Fine. Put this to her in terms of that, then.
"Sis, I've noticed that as of late your children, whom I adore with all my heart, are behaving poorly towards me, towards you, and towards other people. It breaks my heart to see them be disruptive, rude, and sometimes even unkind, especially at such a young age. You've done such a good job as a mom and I am so proud of you for being there for them as you are, but I have to tell you, I am frustrated by their behavior and worry that someday the bad stuff is going to overwhelm the good. As your sister, I care about you and your children, and because I've noticed these behaviors so, so often, I want to let you know that I think that this is something that can be fixed. You often seem to be concerned about being perfect, and I think that's not working here. Our mom wasn't perfect. No one's is. Your kids need you to be a constant force in their lives so that they can develop as structured, kind individuals. Please, start setting boundaries, as I do when they come to visit me. Please enforce those boundaries. Your children are turning out to be versions of themselves they do not deserve to be. Please do this for them."
posted by These Birds of a Feather at 3:36 PM on August 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
Alternative approach: one time, one shot intervention that might turn out good, or bad, depending on how you execute it. So your sister is afraid of not being perfect? Fine. Put this to her in terms of that, then.
"Sis, I've noticed that as of late your children, whom I adore with all my heart, are behaving poorly towards me, towards you, and towards other people. It breaks my heart to see them be disruptive, rude, and sometimes even unkind, especially at such a young age. You've done such a good job as a mom and I am so proud of you for being there for them as you are, but I have to tell you, I am frustrated by their behavior and worry that someday the bad stuff is going to overwhelm the good. As your sister, I care about you and your children, and because I've noticed these behaviors so, so often, I want to let you know that I think that this is something that can be fixed. You often seem to be concerned about being perfect, and I think that's not working here. Our mom wasn't perfect. No one's is. Your kids need you to be a constant force in their lives so that they can develop as structured, kind individuals. Please, start setting boundaries, as I do when they come to visit me. Please enforce those boundaries. Your children are turning out to be versions of themselves they do not deserve to be. Please do this for them."
posted by These Birds of a Feather at 3:36 PM on August 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
Your sister already knows that she's not the world's best disciplinarian. What would change if you confirmed it? Likely there would be a lot of bad feelings, directed toward herself and toward you.
OTOH, you could step in and be Super Sister by taking the kids on excursions and gently demanding that they meet common standards of good behavior. Be the change you wish to see. Give them a model of an adult who requires them to behave, explains why and rewards positive change. They'll thank you (eventually, maybe), and you'll get bonus sister points for keeping the kids busy and entertained. And you can be clear with them about the behavior that *you* expect when they're in your company, a lesson that they'll remember, with luck, in future outings/holidays with you.
posted by MonkeyToes at 3:37 PM on August 25, 2011 [11 favorites]
OTOH, you could step in and be Super Sister by taking the kids on excursions and gently demanding that they meet common standards of good behavior. Be the change you wish to see. Give them a model of an adult who requires them to behave, explains why and rewards positive change. They'll thank you (eventually, maybe), and you'll get bonus sister points for keeping the kids busy and entertained. And you can be clear with them about the behavior that *you* expect when they're in your company, a lesson that they'll remember, with luck, in future outings/holidays with you.
posted by MonkeyToes at 3:37 PM on August 25, 2011 [11 favorites]
I totally sympathise, and I actually disagree that there's absolutely nothing you could do.
I wonder how your sister would feel about you saying it this way: "Sister, I love your kids and I love you. I've noticed that they don't feel like they have to listen to you. It makes me sad, since you're such a great parent and obviously love them so much. Is there anything I can do? I know I'm not an expert and your experience in parenting trumps mine, but I'd like to help if I can."
And if she gets offended, never mention it again - but if it were me and I heard that, I wouldn't be in any way offended...even though I can be defencive and have perfectionist tendencies. I would think that my sister cared about me, and even if I didn't want help, I would not freak out. YMMV, obviously.
Could you talk to Jack about it? See if you can rally his support a little? Jill's probably too young, but he could probably talk to you about it a bit.
posted by guster4lovers at 3:39 PM on August 25, 2011 [3 favorites]
I wonder how your sister would feel about you saying it this way: "Sister, I love your kids and I love you. I've noticed that they don't feel like they have to listen to you. It makes me sad, since you're such a great parent and obviously love them so much. Is there anything I can do? I know I'm not an expert and your experience in parenting trumps mine, but I'd like to help if I can."
And if she gets offended, never mention it again - but if it were me and I heard that, I wouldn't be in any way offended...even though I can be defencive and have perfectionist tendencies. I would think that my sister cared about me, and even if I didn't want help, I would not freak out. YMMV, obviously.
Could you talk to Jack about it? See if you can rally his support a little? Jill's probably too young, but he could probably talk to you about it a bit.
posted by guster4lovers at 3:39 PM on August 25, 2011 [3 favorites]
You know what's funny, having watched some kids grow up (not mine): kids who don't obey are probably likely to succeed in life. The obedient ones turn into nicer people, but it's the ones who do what they like and demand what they want from life who get it.
In your shoes I'd be draconian when it came to their behaviour to you, or in your house, but otherwise let them develop into the little Napoleons they're bound to be.
posted by zadcat at 3:39 PM on August 25, 2011 [10 favorites]
In your shoes I'd be draconian when it came to their behaviour to you, or in your house, but otherwise let them develop into the little Napoleons they're bound to be.
posted by zadcat at 3:39 PM on August 25, 2011 [10 favorites]
Best answer: All you can do is model good boundaries and consequences in their interactions with you.
"I'm sorry, I don't play with children who hit."
"We use our inside voices in this house."
"I'm sorry, I can't understand you when you whine. Use your words."
"When I count to three, there will be a time out if you are not putting away your toys as I asked."
posted by DarlingBri at 3:39 PM on August 25, 2011 [19 favorites]
"I'm sorry, I don't play with children who hit."
"We use our inside voices in this house."
"I'm sorry, I can't understand you when you whine. Use your words."
"When I count to three, there will be a time out if you are not putting away your toys as I asked."
posted by DarlingBri at 3:39 PM on August 25, 2011 [19 favorites]
Who kids are at 8 and 6 isn't who they are at 18 and 16. Other than insisting that they treat you properly when you're with them alone or in your house, you really shouldn't do much. And thinking that your 8 year old niece is a mean girl in the making isn't fair or kind. My 20 yr daughter is delightful and her incredibly tight-assed childfree aunt is completely amazed that she's no longer the hellion she was in 1st grade and remarks about it a lot. And then wonders why they're not close.
posted by Ideefixe at 3:41 PM on August 25, 2011 [16 favorites]
posted by Ideefixe at 3:41 PM on August 25, 2011 [16 favorites]
Sorry, but don't say anything. It's not going to help. It's only going to make your sister feel she can't talk to you or feel comfortable around you.
Consider the possibility that your advice, even if taken, might not actually work. Before I had a kid I was SURE I knew how to make a kid behave. Now I realize I don't know shit. Temperament is huge, and besides, there's a lot a kid absorbs from her family that isn't about discipline style, but is simply absorbing the way parents interact with the world. The way a kid behaves isn't always something that will change with different parenting techniques. Sorry, but that's the reality.
One thing you can do is implement your own rules about how kids can act in your house or with you. You can always say, "At my house, hitting is not ever allowed" or "At my house, my rule is I need you to listen the first time I ask you something." Kids get that different people and different environments have different rules.
But remember your job is not to raise these kids. That's their parents job and they're going to do it their way whether you like it or not. Be a good aunt by showing these kids you love them and making limits without trying to teach a big lesson every time.
posted by serazin at 3:42 PM on August 25, 2011 [4 favorites]
Consider the possibility that your advice, even if taken, might not actually work. Before I had a kid I was SURE I knew how to make a kid behave. Now I realize I don't know shit. Temperament is huge, and besides, there's a lot a kid absorbs from her family that isn't about discipline style, but is simply absorbing the way parents interact with the world. The way a kid behaves isn't always something that will change with different parenting techniques. Sorry, but that's the reality.
One thing you can do is implement your own rules about how kids can act in your house or with you. You can always say, "At my house, hitting is not ever allowed" or "At my house, my rule is I need you to listen the first time I ask you something." Kids get that different people and different environments have different rules.
But remember your job is not to raise these kids. That's their parents job and they're going to do it their way whether you like it or not. Be a good aunt by showing these kids you love them and making limits without trying to teach a big lesson every time.
posted by serazin at 3:42 PM on August 25, 2011 [4 favorites]
ditto DarlingBri's advice, except leave off the "I'm sorry"s. Don't apologize for expecting reasonable behavior.
posted by BostonTerrier at 3:49 PM on August 25, 2011 [4 favorites]
posted by BostonTerrier at 3:49 PM on August 25, 2011 [4 favorites]
I think Zadcat has a point. It's purely anecdotal, but all the kids I know who were smartass little shits as children turned into smart, stubborn go-getter adults. Probably best to leave well enough alone.
posted by stray at 3:57 PM on August 25, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by stray at 3:57 PM on August 25, 2011 [3 favorites]
Kids are very good at learning the demands and desires of individual adults; this is part of the reason they fear their father (he's probably inconsistent in his anger, so they can't predict it, so it is scary) and ignore their mother (she's been ineffectual at maintaining boundaries for so long that they have no reason to believe this will change.)
What about you, though? Are you an unknown quantity? If you are, babysit for them. Often. When you do, be kind but firm; set boundaries, enforce those boundaries, say what you mean and mean what you say. In a very short time, one of two things will happen:
1. They will respond to your treatment, and become obedient and easy to manage when you are in charge. This will help you understand that their behavior now isn't permanent and can/will be changed in the right environment.
2. They will not respond to your treatment, and you will finally understand first-hand how hard it is to manage intelligent children, who can be infuriating even in their happiest and most helpful moments. This will give you more insight into the experience your sister and BIL are having, and that sympathy will help you support them as they learn to be better parents over time.
You can't fix this by fixing your sister. Jump in the fray, get your hands dirty, and either do some good or learn how difficult it is to do some good. Either way, you come out ahead.
posted by davejay at 4:05 PM on August 25, 2011 [8 favorites]
What about you, though? Are you an unknown quantity? If you are, babysit for them. Often. When you do, be kind but firm; set boundaries, enforce those boundaries, say what you mean and mean what you say. In a very short time, one of two things will happen:
1. They will respond to your treatment, and become obedient and easy to manage when you are in charge. This will help you understand that their behavior now isn't permanent and can/will be changed in the right environment.
2. They will not respond to your treatment, and you will finally understand first-hand how hard it is to manage intelligent children, who can be infuriating even in their happiest and most helpful moments. This will give you more insight into the experience your sister and BIL are having, and that sympathy will help you support them as they learn to be better parents over time.
You can't fix this by fixing your sister. Jump in the fray, get your hands dirty, and either do some good or learn how difficult it is to do some good. Either way, you come out ahead.
posted by davejay at 4:05 PM on August 25, 2011 [8 favorites]
Run away! Nobody likes being told how to raise their kids or that they're not doing a good job of it and you say your sister is especially sensitive to criticism. Don't risk your relationship with your sister over this. When I was a kid we were visiting my parent's friends and their son was acting up all night, every time he misbehaved his dad would say 'do that again and consequence' and he never did consequence (don't recall what it was). My parents were appalled but they never said anything. FWIW he turned out just fine.
Before I had a kid I was SURE I knew how to make a kid behave. Now I realize I don't know shit.
QFT. This is true about so many things, not just parenting. Its so easy to see someone doing a bad job of something and think you could do better but the reality is frequently very different. Maybe you would do better or maybe after a few months with her kids you'd be doing anything for a quiet life too ;)
And sadly if Jill wants to get ahead in acting/drama, IME being nice, polite and well mannered gets you sweet FA. Unfortunately pushy, attention seeking little brats do get all the attention because they demand it.
posted by missmagenta at 4:07 PM on August 25, 2011 [2 favorites]
Before I had a kid I was SURE I knew how to make a kid behave. Now I realize I don't know shit.
QFT. This is true about so many things, not just parenting. Its so easy to see someone doing a bad job of something and think you could do better but the reality is frequently very different. Maybe you would do better or maybe after a few months with her kids you'd be doing anything for a quiet life too ;)
And sadly if Jill wants to get ahead in acting/drama, IME being nice, polite and well mannered gets you sweet FA. Unfortunately pushy, attention seeking little brats do get all the attention because they demand it.
posted by missmagenta at 4:07 PM on August 25, 2011 [2 favorites]
The way a kid behaves isn't always something that will change with different parenting techniques.
This times a thousand. I could totally hear my kid saying "It's not THAT red." Not to be snotty, but to state his perception. He has Asperger's syndrome and its attendant lack of empathy, and while we do our best to encourage thinking about others' feelings, it's much harder for him than it is for a typical kid. Punishment and fear don't always solve behavior problems. As I seem to recommend in just about every child behavior question that comes up here, check out Think: Kids.
posted by Daily Alice at 4:23 PM on August 25, 2011 [4 favorites]
This times a thousand. I could totally hear my kid saying "It's not THAT red." Not to be snotty, but to state his perception. He has Asperger's syndrome and its attendant lack of empathy, and while we do our best to encourage thinking about others' feelings, it's much harder for him than it is for a typical kid. Punishment and fear don't always solve behavior problems. As I seem to recommend in just about every child behavior question that comes up here, check out Think: Kids.
posted by Daily Alice at 4:23 PM on August 25, 2011 [4 favorites]
Does your sister ever approach you with her parenting issues, like "OMG Jill punched little Buffy at school, what the heck am I going to do?" If she does, then I think you could draw her out on these topics.
In my family, my nephews are disciplined by the adult family member that witnesses the misbehavior, not necessarily their parents. I don't know how it works in your family, but in your place, I would spend a lot of time with them to encourage them to act right.
My sister's sister-in-law is possibly the most ineffectual parent I have ever witnessed. Her kids are so poorly behaved that even their grandparents will not babysit them, they're the kids that the other kids in the neighborhood won't play with because they hit. I feel so, so bad for those kids, even as I'm praying that they don't show up at any family events. One of their grandmothers wrote their mother a letter which basically said I love you and your children, but your parenting skills need work. She offered to pay for therapy and parenting classes but predictably, it was not well received and there was a year long sulk. That was awesome because then we didn't have to deal with the kids, but she eventually started showing up again and the kids were as much of a pain in the ass as always.
posted by crankylex at 4:32 PM on August 25, 2011
In my family, my nephews are disciplined by the adult family member that witnesses the misbehavior, not necessarily their parents. I don't know how it works in your family, but in your place, I would spend a lot of time with them to encourage them to act right.
My sister's sister-in-law is possibly the most ineffectual parent I have ever witnessed. Her kids are so poorly behaved that even their grandparents will not babysit them, they're the kids that the other kids in the neighborhood won't play with because they hit. I feel so, so bad for those kids, even as I'm praying that they don't show up at any family events. One of their grandmothers wrote their mother a letter which basically said I love you and your children, but your parenting skills need work. She offered to pay for therapy and parenting classes but predictably, it was not well received and there was a year long sulk. That was awesome because then we didn't have to deal with the kids, but she eventually started showing up again and the kids were as much of a pain in the ass as always.
posted by crankylex at 4:32 PM on August 25, 2011
I empathize with your frustration, but for the most part, you shouldn't say anything except in instances where you are directly interacting with them or present. It's not my place to tell my siblings how to parent their kids, but if my nephews and nieces are being rude and interrupting our conversation, disregard or throw my things on the floor, or are being loud and messy at my place, I'll absolutely give the stern auntie eye or talk to them about their behavior. If I'm not involved, it's not my place to intervene, and it's back to casual playing and hanging out.
posted by raztaj at 4:36 PM on August 25, 2011
posted by raztaj at 4:36 PM on August 25, 2011
Ask her. Ask her if the kids have been hard to deal with, if she's frustrated, that kind of thing. Bring it up in a way that doesn't blame her - the kids are in a rough phase, that kind of thing. Listen to her, be her sounding board, encourage her and support her. Maybe, if it seems appropriate, mention something like 123 Magic, which is a book that I've found really remarkably simple and helpful.
posted by lemniskate at 4:50 PM on August 25, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by lemniskate at 4:50 PM on August 25, 2011 [2 favorites]
I recommend you say nothing. They're not your kids. I've repeatedly seen friends and family not talk to one another for years over something like this.
posted by xammerboy at 5:29 PM on August 25, 2011
posted by xammerboy at 5:29 PM on August 25, 2011
The repeated catty asides in your post make me think you are too preoccupied with your sister's parenting. That in turn makes me think that you're not in the best place emotionally to start offering pointed, potentially fraught advice, even if you present it as "just trying to be helpful."
If your sister's family bothers you, limit your exposure to them. Not every adult has the reserve to deal with young children. If you think it's somehow your duty to save your sister from losing face before her children, the best solution is to stand back and reevaluate your priorities.
posted by Nomyte at 5:50 PM on August 25, 2011 [2 favorites]
If your sister's family bothers you, limit your exposure to them. Not every adult has the reserve to deal with young children. If you think it's somehow your duty to save your sister from losing face before her children, the best solution is to stand back and reevaluate your priorities.
posted by Nomyte at 5:50 PM on August 25, 2011 [2 favorites]
Gotta say, from your description they sound awfully like kids. Parenting is difficult, and discipline even more so. Unless you were reporting actual issues here - I'd say nothing. they aren't your kids, you're not bringing them up, you are unaware of how maddeningly difficult parenting is.
When you're a parent you often don't have a lot of choice
You can't turn kids off, you can't leave, you can't shut the door and just ignore them. You need to strike a balance that is terribly difficult to maintain. As dad I can be an ogre - but I hate that, I much prefer to maybe be a little lenient on discipline, and reenforce in other ways.
My eight year old girl drives me crazy, last night we had this..
Can I do craft?
No, it's bed time
But mum said we could stay up
You can, but it's too late for craft
but if I'm staying up I might as well do craft
No, I don't want glue and glitter everywhere
But why not? I won't make a mess
No, it's reading time
I'll clean it up
You know you won't
Yes I will
Twenty minutes later ...
WHY THE .... is there glitter all over your bed?!!!
ARGHHHHHHHHHH
In fact, everything is a compromise.
Yup
posted by the noob at 5:55 PM on August 25, 2011 [2 favorites]
When you're a parent you often don't have a lot of choice
You can't turn kids off, you can't leave, you can't shut the door and just ignore them. You need to strike a balance that is terribly difficult to maintain. As dad I can be an ogre - but I hate that, I much prefer to maybe be a little lenient on discipline, and reenforce in other ways.
My eight year old girl drives me crazy, last night we had this..
Can I do craft?
No, it's bed time
But mum said we could stay up
You can, but it's too late for craft
but if I'm staying up I might as well do craft
No, I don't want glue and glitter everywhere
But why not? I won't make a mess
No, it's reading time
I'll clean it up
You know you won't
Yes I will
Twenty minutes later ...
WHY THE .... is there glitter all over your bed?!!!
ARGHHHHHHHHHH
In fact, everything is a compromise.
Yup
posted by the noob at 5:55 PM on August 25, 2011 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: I appreciate all the advice so much. It's clear the overwhelming consensus is to keep my mouth shut. And you're exactly right -- I'm not a parent and don't know what it's really like, so it's a bit too easy for me to say if you only did X and Y you would see A and B results. When, in fact, it's not that simple nor that cut and dry. I really need to remember exactly this.
I was not intending to be catty or judgmental, but I realize my frustration painted exactly that tone. I really do love my sister and her family, and though I may disagree with some choices, I will remember to simply be a support if she asks for it. This is a good learning lesson for me.
posted by Falwless at 5:56 PM on August 25, 2011 [4 favorites]
I was not intending to be catty or judgmental, but I realize my frustration painted exactly that tone. I really do love my sister and her family, and though I may disagree with some choices, I will remember to simply be a support if she asks for it. This is a good learning lesson for me.
posted by Falwless at 5:56 PM on August 25, 2011 [4 favorites]
"She's so frightened to not be perfect that she cannot hear criticism without feeling personally attacked. She never asks our (my mother, me, my brother) for advice. After all, we don't have doctorate degrees, we can't possibly have good advice. Furthermore, I am single with no children - what could I know about raising them?"
One of my most helpful parenting-advice-givers is single and has no children. That said, here's the one thing, from reading your post, that I think you DON'T know about raising your sister's children:
Your sister is TIRED.
Enforcing rules in a consistent fashion is a 24/7 job. And your sister already HAS a demanding job. And a spouse with a demanding job. Just reading your post makes me tired for her. And it'd be great if we could all be perfect parents all the time, but dude, I'm a stay-at-home-mom and *I* don't always have the energy to be perfectly consistent. (It is a tiny bit ironic that you say she's a perfectionist but you're complaining about her lack of perfection here.)
Yeah, she's probably fallen into some bad patterns. Yeah, some of this is going to be a bigger hassle down the road. But you know, my husband has a demanding job, he comes home after working all day, and he wants to enjoy his children. Which sometimes means letting bad behavior slide or indulging them in ways I'd rather he didn't. Which makes me crazy because I'm the one who has to do the 24/7 consistency (or try to, anyway). But then I think, "Man, what lucky children, that they have a father who enjoys them so much and wants to make them happy." And about your niece and nephew I say, "Man, what lucky children, who not only have parents who enjoy them, but who have an aunt who cares so much about their well-being."
That said, MOST kids do outgrown MOST of this stuff, and intervening unless you're asked probably only leads to problems between you and your sister, hard as biting your tongue is. (AND IT IS SO HARD. SO HARD.)
One suggestion I do have is, you could find a "auntie-niece" activity you and Jill could do together, one that promotes self-reliance, responsibility, thoughtfulness, etc. (Not blind obedience. Obedience for the sake of obedience does nobody any good unless someone is running into traffic.), and you could do that with Jill. Which would give your sister a break, and give you a chance to model better behaviors for Jill and encourage them in her through whatever your chosen activity is. Or you could just let it go and cross your fingers and wait until you're asked your advice.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:06 PM on August 25, 2011 [4 favorites]
One of my most helpful parenting-advice-givers is single and has no children. That said, here's the one thing, from reading your post, that I think you DON'T know about raising your sister's children:
Your sister is TIRED.
Enforcing rules in a consistent fashion is a 24/7 job. And your sister already HAS a demanding job. And a spouse with a demanding job. Just reading your post makes me tired for her. And it'd be great if we could all be perfect parents all the time, but dude, I'm a stay-at-home-mom and *I* don't always have the energy to be perfectly consistent. (It is a tiny bit ironic that you say she's a perfectionist but you're complaining about her lack of perfection here.)
Yeah, she's probably fallen into some bad patterns. Yeah, some of this is going to be a bigger hassle down the road. But you know, my husband has a demanding job, he comes home after working all day, and he wants to enjoy his children. Which sometimes means letting bad behavior slide or indulging them in ways I'd rather he didn't. Which makes me crazy because I'm the one who has to do the 24/7 consistency (or try to, anyway). But then I think, "Man, what lucky children, that they have a father who enjoys them so much and wants to make them happy." And about your niece and nephew I say, "Man, what lucky children, who not only have parents who enjoy them, but who have an aunt who cares so much about their well-being."
That said, MOST kids do outgrown MOST of this stuff, and intervening unless you're asked probably only leads to problems between you and your sister, hard as biting your tongue is. (AND IT IS SO HARD. SO HARD.)
One suggestion I do have is, you could find a "auntie-niece" activity you and Jill could do together, one that promotes self-reliance, responsibility, thoughtfulness, etc. (Not blind obedience. Obedience for the sake of obedience does nobody any good unless someone is running into traffic.), and you could do that with Jill. Which would give your sister a break, and give you a chance to model better behaviors for Jill and encourage them in her through whatever your chosen activity is. Or you could just let it go and cross your fingers and wait until you're asked your advice.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:06 PM on August 25, 2011 [4 favorites]
Seconding Eyebrows McGee: If you're not the one doing the parenting, it is impossible to understand the relentlessness exhaustion of DOING ALL THE THINGS, all the time. You mention that your sister is a physician, and I'm guessing that means that she has a big R responsibility gene, which she exercises all day in what are sometimes life and death situations, but even if not, it is her job to be vigilant and sharp and responsible, and to do it again and again, every day. That's tiring, physically and psychologically and emotionally. Then she comes home and WHAM!, it's more responsibility for the entire time she is with her children, and I'm willing to bet she has Mommy Ears and is always listening for both the big emergencies and the smaller, but no less important, emotional emergencies experienced by small children. It may be that she has a philosophy of playing the long game as a parent, and that she has vowed not to yell or spank or throw things, and that takes a toll too, in the times when it would be so much easier to scream "Because I said so!" rather than to calmly, patiently reason it out with little people with teeny-tiny attention spans and huge needs for autonomy. She's doing pretty well not to lose her damn mind. That doesn't solve the behavior problems, true, but take this into consideration next time you watch your sister say "Please hang up your towel" for the 16th time.
posted by MonkeyToes at 6:17 PM on August 25, 2011 [5 favorites]
posted by MonkeyToes at 6:17 PM on August 25, 2011 [5 favorites]
You probably can't talk to her about the way you'd like to, that's true. Which is a shame, because this inability is a waste of resources and support. For that reason, lemniskate's advice is excellent.
Most of the successful smart people I know also behaved as children (not perfectly, not always, but generally), and the ones who didn't have social or authority issues now that hound them, especially if they had issues with empathy. So, YMMV on the anecdotes above asserting otherwise.
My own anecdotes:
1) I learned long ago that my years of childcare and staying on top of child behaviour discoveries were pointless until I had a child of my own, which is bemusing now that I do have a child and the same people who dismissed any advice I could have given are amazed by things that make my life easier and my little one happier and were in my head back when they decided I knew nothing* just because I'd waited.
2) Recently, my sister and her 6yr old joined me at a crowded event and there were definitely many behaviour challenges for her little one while we were there that I knew were none of my business and absolutely things they needed to work out between themselves. After a few particularly mean-spirited remarks and reactions from my niece toward her mom - trying so hard to be understanding of the situation and her daughter's limits - had my sister almost in tears, though, I did something I never thought I'd do: I addressed my niece directly for her behaviour. I got down on her level and said, "[Niece], I understand that you are 6 and this is exciting and you have a lot going on in your head. But your mom loves you and is doing all she can to make this fun for you and you are being really mean to her. I don't know if you know you're doing it, but you are. I still love you, but I'm disappointed to see you treat your mom this way, since she's so good to you. I hope you stop being mean to her and thank her for being nice. If you're mean again, I'm heading out because I don't want to see my sister sad."
Then I turned to my sister and said, "I'm sorry, sis - I know I probably overstepped my bounds there. She's yours to raise, of course, but I know how much you love her, how good you are to her, and how hard you work to be a good mom, and I just can't take watching her treat you like that anymore. Feel free to do the same for me some day if you see wee batmonkey treating me that way." Then I gave them both big hugs and told them I was glad they were there and hoped they could forgive me for getting in the middle of their "thing".
Result: she doesn't treat my sister that way around me anymore, and it's been almost a year and several get-togethers (including high-stimulus outings) since then.
Definitely be consistent in the behaviour you expect when J&J are in your care. Clarify ahead of time with your sister & her husband about discipline boundaries. Have them restate the simple version in front of the kids. Follow it to the letter. Read books and articles on child behaviour. Don't give unsolicited reading material of this sort to their parents, but you can say things like, "I just read [foo book] and found [concept] really interesting - have you read it yet? What do you think of it?" - common discussion ground, potential learning opportunity (for both of you - you might be reading a bunch of bunk where she can flex her confidence), and shows her she's got a serious resource right there.
* this is so illogical it makes me apoplectic. becoming pregnant and giving birth do not confer some miraculous knowledge transfer to parents. argh.
posted by batmonkey at 6:20 PM on August 25, 2011 [8 favorites]
Most of the successful smart people I know also behaved as children (not perfectly, not always, but generally), and the ones who didn't have social or authority issues now that hound them, especially if they had issues with empathy. So, YMMV on the anecdotes above asserting otherwise.
My own anecdotes:
1) I learned long ago that my years of childcare and staying on top of child behaviour discoveries were pointless until I had a child of my own, which is bemusing now that I do have a child and the same people who dismissed any advice I could have given are amazed by things that make my life easier and my little one happier and were in my head back when they decided I knew nothing* just because I'd waited.
2) Recently, my sister and her 6yr old joined me at a crowded event and there were definitely many behaviour challenges for her little one while we were there that I knew were none of my business and absolutely things they needed to work out between themselves. After a few particularly mean-spirited remarks and reactions from my niece toward her mom - trying so hard to be understanding of the situation and her daughter's limits - had my sister almost in tears, though, I did something I never thought I'd do: I addressed my niece directly for her behaviour. I got down on her level and said, "[Niece], I understand that you are 6 and this is exciting and you have a lot going on in your head. But your mom loves you and is doing all she can to make this fun for you and you are being really mean to her. I don't know if you know you're doing it, but you are. I still love you, but I'm disappointed to see you treat your mom this way, since she's so good to you. I hope you stop being mean to her and thank her for being nice. If you're mean again, I'm heading out because I don't want to see my sister sad."
Then I turned to my sister and said, "I'm sorry, sis - I know I probably overstepped my bounds there. She's yours to raise, of course, but I know how much you love her, how good you are to her, and how hard you work to be a good mom, and I just can't take watching her treat you like that anymore. Feel free to do the same for me some day if you see wee batmonkey treating me that way." Then I gave them both big hugs and told them I was glad they were there and hoped they could forgive me for getting in the middle of their "thing".
Result: she doesn't treat my sister that way around me anymore, and it's been almost a year and several get-togethers (including high-stimulus outings) since then.
Definitely be consistent in the behaviour you expect when J&J are in your care. Clarify ahead of time with your sister & her husband about discipline boundaries. Have them restate the simple version in front of the kids. Follow it to the letter. Read books and articles on child behaviour. Don't give unsolicited reading material of this sort to their parents, but you can say things like, "I just read [foo book] and found [concept] really interesting - have you read it yet? What do you think of it?" - common discussion ground, potential learning opportunity (for both of you - you might be reading a bunch of bunk where she can flex her confidence), and shows her she's got a serious resource right there.
* this is so illogical it makes me apoplectic. becoming pregnant and giving birth do not confer some miraculous knowledge transfer to parents. argh.
posted by batmonkey at 6:20 PM on August 25, 2011 [8 favorites]
Your sister is making terrible choices that will affect her, the kids, her husband, you and any one else who comes into contact with the kids.
You have a moral duty to your sister and those kids to say something. To do nothing and watch the disaster get worst is inexcusable.
Look, you're going to say something at some point. It's just a question of whether it's now, when the problem can be fixed or 10 years from now when your perfectionist sister is having daily crying fits and calling you for advice. Your choice.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:35 PM on August 25, 2011 [5 favorites]
You have a moral duty to your sister and those kids to say something. To do nothing and watch the disaster get worst is inexcusable.
Look, you're going to say something at some point. It's just a question of whether it's now, when the problem can be fixed or 10 years from now when your perfectionist sister is having daily crying fits and calling you for advice. Your choice.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:35 PM on August 25, 2011 [5 favorites]
You are only really going to have the right to try to control the way they act around you...and when you're with them sans parents, you can set up whatever rules you like and enforce them within reason (I assume you wouldn't strike a niece or nephew anyway).
And I'm going to contradict Brandon here; if these kids do turn out as messed up adults, it's not something you as aunt are going to be able to stop. I know that's hard to deal with, but, my family had a situation like that. We all tried to help my sister's kids, but they did what they wanted, which in one case resulted in jail time, in another having lots of kids from failed relationships with lots of partners. Neither of them made it to college; both of them still have plenty of issues. Because we weren't the parents and we just didn't have that kind of influence on them, nothing we tried made much difference.
But...now those kids have managed to pretty much straightened themselves out, to everyone's shock. It does happen; you can be a fucked-up 20 year old who gets their shit together at 30. Or you can continue to be fucked-up. But as aunt, all you can really do is make your boundaries clear and listen and babysit and be there as much as you can.
Try to think of it this way, in terms of letting yourself off the hook. You can't take on the responsibility for these kids, so don't. It will make you crazy.
posted by emjaybee at 7:04 PM on August 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
And I'm going to contradict Brandon here; if these kids do turn out as messed up adults, it's not something you as aunt are going to be able to stop. I know that's hard to deal with, but, my family had a situation like that. We all tried to help my sister's kids, but they did what they wanted, which in one case resulted in jail time, in another having lots of kids from failed relationships with lots of partners. Neither of them made it to college; both of them still have plenty of issues. Because we weren't the parents and we just didn't have that kind of influence on them, nothing we tried made much difference.
But...now those kids have managed to pretty much straightened themselves out, to everyone's shock. It does happen; you can be a fucked-up 20 year old who gets their shit together at 30. Or you can continue to be fucked-up. But as aunt, all you can really do is make your boundaries clear and listen and babysit and be there as much as you can.
Try to think of it this way, in terms of letting yourself off the hook. You can't take on the responsibility for these kids, so don't. It will make you crazy.
posted by emjaybee at 7:04 PM on August 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
I think you are right to be concerned. More than that -- I think you are Right to be concerned. Children belong to all of us, and need all of us to help them learn how to live in society. Yes, that's right. My actual meatspace kids, those precious genius snowflakes that are more awesome than your little mind can comprehend -- I acknowledge that *my* kids belong also to you, and you are properly a part of their education, if they are ever in your space, and come to your attention.
I was always grateful (well, intellectually) when people told my kids to quit kicking their seat, or making so much noise, or whatever -- even if they were jerks about it -- because as their mother (a) I want my kids to live well in the world of other people, jerks included, and (b) I love them so much, I couldn't always see through other than my kids' eyes.
When my son was four, he threw a rock at another kid. The kid was crying, and really hurt and angry. He couldn't understand why his friend would do that. But I totally did. This was my son, whom I loved, and in that moment our minds were one -- Look, a rock. I can throw it. There's Winston. Wham! The boy and his mom round on my son, who literally does not understand what the problem is, and for a moment I am wanting to defend him, to explain his point of view to this kid and his mother -- as if my son's state of mind when he threw a rock at you was fucking relevant in some way. No, *bzzt*, please reload reality-matrix. "Son, do not throw rocks at people, because it hurts them." "Son, express concern when you have hurt someone."
They say that the central mistake we all make is to judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions -- a-a-and it is too, too easy for a parent to mistakenly extend this to her children as well, thus failing in her job is to teach, and ensure, appropriate actions. Older generations knew this, and would help out kids who misbehaved in public. We still have that responsibility, even if it has become somehow frowned upon to exercise it.
These poor kids are your close kin, your niece and nephew. It is painful and lonely for a child to not know how to behave in a way that will make him feel accepted. It is painful and lonely to be unable to empathize with others -- and empathy must be taught. I can't give you specific advice on how to help, since I don't know your sister or the kids, but you were right to think you have a responsibility to help. If you despair of getting through to your sister, I hope at least you will have opportunities to teach them yourself, on outings with their Auntie.
posted by pH Indicating Socks at 7:36 PM on August 25, 2011 [4 favorites]
I was always grateful (well, intellectually) when people told my kids to quit kicking their seat, or making so much noise, or whatever -- even if they were jerks about it -- because as their mother (a) I want my kids to live well in the world of other people, jerks included, and (b) I love them so much, I couldn't always see through other than my kids' eyes.
When my son was four, he threw a rock at another kid. The kid was crying, and really hurt and angry. He couldn't understand why his friend would do that. But I totally did. This was my son, whom I loved, and in that moment our minds were one -- Look, a rock. I can throw it. There's Winston. Wham! The boy and his mom round on my son, who literally does not understand what the problem is, and for a moment I am wanting to defend him, to explain his point of view to this kid and his mother -- as if my son's state of mind when he threw a rock at you was fucking relevant in some way. No, *bzzt*, please reload reality-matrix. "Son, do not throw rocks at people, because it hurts them." "Son, express concern when you have hurt someone."
They say that the central mistake we all make is to judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions -- a-a-and it is too, too easy for a parent to mistakenly extend this to her children as well, thus failing in her job is to teach, and ensure, appropriate actions. Older generations knew this, and would help out kids who misbehaved in public. We still have that responsibility, even if it has become somehow frowned upon to exercise it.
These poor kids are your close kin, your niece and nephew. It is painful and lonely for a child to not know how to behave in a way that will make him feel accepted. It is painful and lonely to be unable to empathize with others -- and empathy must be taught. I can't give you specific advice on how to help, since I don't know your sister or the kids, but you were right to think you have a responsibility to help. If you despair of getting through to your sister, I hope at least you will have opportunities to teach them yourself, on outings with their Auntie.
posted by pH Indicating Socks at 7:36 PM on August 25, 2011 [4 favorites]
OP, if you saw your sister struggling to do anything, would not at least say something, let alone offer help? Of course you would. So saying something about her kids isn't a big leap.
This isn't about you fixing the problem, but mentioning it to the person who can.
Yes, your sister may be intially hurt due to her need to be perfectionist. She can get over that or not, that's her choice. But if she's making bad parenting decisions somebody needs to point that out to her. It might as well be someone who loves and cares for her.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:36 PM on August 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
This isn't about you fixing the problem, but mentioning it to the person who can.
Yes, your sister may be intially hurt due to her need to be perfectionist. She can get over that or not, that's her choice. But if she's making bad parenting decisions somebody needs to point that out to her. It might as well be someone who loves and cares for her.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:36 PM on August 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
If your sister ever actually comes to you and says, "I have no idea what to do with these kids!" in a way that sounds as though she is soliciting your advice, bite your tongue (!) and tell her, "You know, when I want to learn about something I don't know and I want to learn it at my own pace, I go to the library." You can offer to go with her and help her check out some books, and read them together. She might really value your input on things she reads.
posted by juniperesque at 7:46 PM on August 25, 2011
posted by juniperesque at 7:46 PM on August 25, 2011
I think what you can do is work on separating problematic kid behavior from the core of who these kids are as people. If they're deep-down good people, they're going to figure out how to be decent adults. It's actually pretty hard to change a person other than through trauma or abuse. People are mostly themselves. The kid versions are just incapable of controlling themselves. Kids have underdeveloped brains. Give it time. Even in the scenario where they are getting inferior parenting, they're not going to be ruined. They'll just adjust as they get older and maybe take longer learning how to moderate their behavior. It will come with age and time.
I was a pretty difficult kid. I made my mom mad on purpose, I wanted to get my way all the time, I was mean sometimes. As an adult I think my friends would give me good reviews. My mom wasn't great at figuring out discipline, but I got older and I learned how to regulate my own behavior. I was never a sociopath and ineffectual attempts to get me to go to bed didn't turn me into one. I generally like people and want them to like me and I figured out how to make that happen.
Love the kids. Model good behavior for them. Be there for them. And don't project their present inevitable biologically-determined immaturity onto the adults they will eventually become. If their parents are as wonderful as you say they are, they'll become wonderful adults too.
posted by prefpara at 8:01 PM on August 25, 2011
I was a pretty difficult kid. I made my mom mad on purpose, I wanted to get my way all the time, I was mean sometimes. As an adult I think my friends would give me good reviews. My mom wasn't great at figuring out discipline, but I got older and I learned how to regulate my own behavior. I was never a sociopath and ineffectual attempts to get me to go to bed didn't turn me into one. I generally like people and want them to like me and I figured out how to make that happen.
Love the kids. Model good behavior for them. Be there for them. And don't project their present inevitable biologically-determined immaturity onto the adults they will eventually become. If their parents are as wonderful as you say they are, they'll become wonderful adults too.
posted by prefpara at 8:01 PM on August 25, 2011
If I saw some specifics in your post about the kind of advice you feel knowledgeable enough to offer, I might feel differently. But what I read now is "My sister is a great person, but a shitty parent. Should I tell her?" And my answer to that is no.
You say yourself that she knows there is a problem--so why do you feel like you have to tell her what she already knows? Dollars to donuts she is already spending part of her day worrying her darling daughter is going to grow up into a psychopathic prima donna, she doesn't need you pointing it out to her. And if they treat her like crap: believe me, she feels like crap. Just because she's having a hard time getting a handle on the situation doesn't mean she doesn't know there is a situation. I disagree with Brandon above; you aren't offering help, you're offering criticism. If your sister could fix the problem, don't you think she would?
If your sister turns to you in frustration in the heat of battle, be supportive; offer to take the kids off her hands for fifteen minutes so she can regroup. If you have some tried-and-true tips and strategies to share, by all means offer them. My friends with kids and I are always swapping war stories about our bratty kids and the various ways we crush their little souls and bend them to our will. What we don't do is say, Dude, you really suck at enforcing boundaries, your kid is turning into a monster. That's not helpful!
posted by looli at 8:02 PM on August 25, 2011 [2 favorites]
You say yourself that she knows there is a problem--so why do you feel like you have to tell her what she already knows? Dollars to donuts she is already spending part of her day worrying her darling daughter is going to grow up into a psychopathic prima donna, she doesn't need you pointing it out to her. And if they treat her like crap: believe me, she feels like crap. Just because she's having a hard time getting a handle on the situation doesn't mean she doesn't know there is a situation. I disagree with Brandon above; you aren't offering help, you're offering criticism. If your sister could fix the problem, don't you think she would?
If your sister turns to you in frustration in the heat of battle, be supportive; offer to take the kids off her hands for fifteen minutes so she can regroup. If you have some tried-and-true tips and strategies to share, by all means offer them. My friends with kids and I are always swapping war stories about our bratty kids and the various ways we crush their little souls and bend them to our will. What we don't do is say, Dude, you really suck at enforcing boundaries, your kid is turning into a monster. That's not helpful!
posted by looli at 8:02 PM on August 25, 2011 [2 favorites]
If you have to ask whether you should tell your sister, the answer is no. You aren't close enough to her to be able to offer this kind of advice with out it wrecking your relationship with her.
You can control how you interact with the kids. At best, you can model what you think is appropriate for your sister when you're around. I have a suspicion you'll find it a lot harder than you think it is.
Other than that, it's really none of your business.
posted by empath at 8:06 PM on August 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
You can control how you interact with the kids. At best, you can model what you think is appropriate for your sister when you're around. I have a suspicion you'll find it a lot harder than you think it is.
Other than that, it's really none of your business.
posted by empath at 8:06 PM on August 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
And, IMO, it's not the job of a parent to raise kids that obey. They aren't puppies.
posted by empath at 8:07 PM on August 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by empath at 8:07 PM on August 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
No, they're not puppies; they're human beings, and the sooner they know how to behave in non-obnoxious ways, the quicker they will be able to get what they want without needing to turn everything into a fight.
You need to buy and read 1-2-3 Magic. You need to role-play the parent's steps in that dance with a willing partner who role-plays the obnoxious child (not your sister or your sister's kids) until you're confident and it just feels natural. And once that's done, you just start using it whenever the kids visit you.
Pick your time. Your sister should not be there the first time you send one of her kids off to timeout in your house; you need to establish your "my house, my rules" authority with the kids first.
Don't let your sister see that you have this book until she asks about it.
posted by flabdablet at 8:58 PM on August 25, 2011
You need to buy and read 1-2-3 Magic. You need to role-play the parent's steps in that dance with a willing partner who role-plays the obnoxious child (not your sister or your sister's kids) until you're confident and it just feels natural. And once that's done, you just start using it whenever the kids visit you.
Pick your time. Your sister should not be there the first time you send one of her kids off to timeout in your house; you need to establish your "my house, my rules" authority with the kids first.
Don't let your sister see that you have this book until she asks about it.
posted by flabdablet at 8:58 PM on August 25, 2011
It's clear the overwhelming consensus is to keep my mouth shut.
Huh. I don't think that's the "overwhelming consensus" here at all. There seem to be a number of folks suggesting you create situations where you're with the kids and can set limits for them in ways your sister isn't doing.
posted by mediareport at 9:36 PM on August 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
Huh. I don't think that's the "overwhelming consensus" here at all. There seem to be a number of folks suggesting you create situations where you're with the kids and can set limits for them in ways your sister isn't doing.
posted by mediareport at 9:36 PM on August 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
The real question, would you rather watch this travesty of parenting go down or would you rather risk pissing your sister off so much she tries to wipe the floor with you?
Two scenarios:
1. You say nothing, things carry on as before. Spending time with them is a trial instead of a joy. You become ashamed of the behavior of your niece and nephew and can't spend to spend time with them in public.
2. You say something. You don't tell her how to raise her kids. Instead, you tell her that her kids are shits and she needs to make a change. You don't know what change but their behavior isn't right and she needs to ask help from someone who knows what to do. Until that happens, you will not be hanging out with her and her kids at the same time. She may go nuclear and cut you out of her life. She may realize how bad it is and seek help. Either way, you don't have to deal with the ick.
posted by Foam Pants at 9:39 PM on August 25, 2011
Two scenarios:
1. You say nothing, things carry on as before. Spending time with them is a trial instead of a joy. You become ashamed of the behavior of your niece and nephew and can't spend to spend time with them in public.
2. You say something. You don't tell her how to raise her kids. Instead, you tell her that her kids are shits and she needs to make a change. You don't know what change but their behavior isn't right and she needs to ask help from someone who knows what to do. Until that happens, you will not be hanging out with her and her kids at the same time. She may go nuclear and cut you out of her life. She may realize how bad it is and seek help. Either way, you don't have to deal with the ick.
posted by Foam Pants at 9:39 PM on August 25, 2011
All you can do is model good boundaries and consequences in their interactions with you.
Seconded. I also wanted to say that the reason you shouldn't directly bring this up with your sister isn't that you can't understand because you're not a parent. It's because parenting advice gets everyone's hackles up no matter how true, and because it's totally not news to her and therefore will feel like a jibe.
Now, when she vents to you about her kids, then you may be able to do something like, "okay, you know what, I'll do what I can to help as the aunt who is not-Mom. I'm just going to go out of my way to model this behavior in response to that behavior [describe what you think she should be doing.]
posted by desuetude at 9:58 PM on August 25, 2011
Seconded. I also wanted to say that the reason you shouldn't directly bring this up with your sister isn't that you can't understand because you're not a parent. It's because parenting advice gets everyone's hackles up no matter how true, and because it's totally not news to her and therefore will feel like a jibe.
Now, when she vents to you about her kids, then you may be able to do something like, "okay, you know what, I'll do what I can to help as the aunt who is not-Mom. I'm just going to go out of my way to model this behavior in response to that behavior [describe what you think she should be doing.]
posted by desuetude at 9:58 PM on August 25, 2011
Hey there Falwless, after seeing your response I want to add that it's wonderful that you love these kids and want them to be OK. I have had feelings very much like yours about a couple sets of kids and parents I've been close to. Watching them interact, it was so obvious to me what the problems were. As I say, those things became much less obvious after I had my own kid, but I want to recognize that you are coming from a place of love and caring about your family. Kudos to you for looking out for your niece and nephew.
posted by serazin at 10:00 PM on August 25, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by serazin at 10:00 PM on August 25, 2011 [2 favorites]
In your house, it is perfectly appropriate to ask that your sister's children abide by your rules and expect her to enforce them. If you babysit them, you can model the discipline you think they should have, too.
If your sister asks you for help, it is appropriate to offer advice.
Otherwise, I feel that your helpful, best intentions are going to fall on deaf ears, or even be resented.
And, just for the record, I do know that some parents are afraid or reluctant to discipline their kids around others. She may be much more strict when she doesn't feel like anyone is watching and judging her (which, to be honest, you are doing).
The daughter hitting another kid? Not acceptable, of course. But you say your daughter did handle that appropriately, right? So these changes in behavior that you see with her kids may just be the result of them testing their boundaries. Kids do that. It doesn't mean they are doomed to be brats forever.
It's good that you're concerned. And I'm sure your sister will appreciate it whenever you feel up to volunteering to watching the kids.
But the rest of the time, she's their mother, and she's raising her kids the way she feels is best. She doesn't have to raise them the way you feel is best. Respect that.
posted by misha at 10:02 PM on August 25, 2011
If your sister asks you for help, it is appropriate to offer advice.
Otherwise, I feel that your helpful, best intentions are going to fall on deaf ears, or even be resented.
And, just for the record, I do know that some parents are afraid or reluctant to discipline their kids around others. She may be much more strict when she doesn't feel like anyone is watching and judging her (which, to be honest, you are doing).
The daughter hitting another kid? Not acceptable, of course. But you say your daughter did handle that appropriately, right? So these changes in behavior that you see with her kids may just be the result of them testing their boundaries. Kids do that. It doesn't mean they are doomed to be brats forever.
It's good that you're concerned. And I'm sure your sister will appreciate it whenever you feel up to volunteering to watching the kids.
But the rest of the time, she's their mother, and she's raising her kids the way she feels is best. She doesn't have to raise them the way you feel is best. Respect that.
posted by misha at 10:02 PM on August 25, 2011
Just do the your house, your rules thing. And then, babysit.
1) It will give your sister and brother-in-law a break -- which they likely need from the kids
2) It will give you a sense of realism about it so that if you do say anything, it's from an observation not criticism place ("It was really hard to get Jill to (do XYZ), but I did the counting thing/time out thing, blah blah thing and by the end, she was an angel." if it works. If it doesn't, hey, more empathy, right?)
3) The kids will get practice in discipline and rule following -- which may not make home better, but could help in school
posted by Gucky at 11:42 PM on August 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
1) It will give your sister and brother-in-law a break -- which they likely need from the kids
2) It will give you a sense of realism about it so that if you do say anything, it's from an observation not criticism place ("It was really hard to get Jill to (do XYZ), but I did the counting thing/time out thing, blah blah thing and by the end, she was an angel." if it works. If it doesn't, hey, more empathy, right?)
3) The kids will get practice in discipline and rule following -- which may not make home better, but could help in school
posted by Gucky at 11:42 PM on August 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
ditto DarlingBri's advice, except leave off the "I'm sorry"s. Don't apologize for expecting reasonable behavior.
But if you don't say sorry, it is so much harder to deliver these lines with your VERY SAD VOICE. Which is the one that automatically rolls out of my mouth when very short people are behaving to a disappointing standard.
posted by DarlingBri at 1:41 AM on August 26, 2011
But if you don't say sorry, it is so much harder to deliver these lines with your VERY SAD VOICE. Which is the one that automatically rolls out of my mouth when very short people are behaving to a disappointing standard.
posted by DarlingBri at 1:41 AM on August 26, 2011
Response by poster: My sister's family and I are separated by a half dozen states so I am not able to be in her day to day life. When I am around I do set firm rules about how they treat me. When they are at my house alone they know the boundaries. I realize that's all I can control, and I try my best to do so.
I understand the desire to paint me as judgmental and/or cold by the tone of my question, but please don't misunderstand. I love these children and my sister very, very much. I see the struggles she goes through and it makes me sad to see her so exasperated on a daily basis.
I'm not the tight-assed aunt in the anecdote above. In fact, my nephling and nieceling absolutely adore being around me and call me on the phone and Facetime with me as much as they can. So, please don't assume I am a cold, uncaring, judgmental force in their lives because I am not. I am simply wanting the best for them, and I was unsure of what to do. Again, thank you for the advice.
posted by Falwless at 2:36 AM on August 26, 2011 [4 favorites]
I understand the desire to paint me as judgmental and/or cold by the tone of my question, but please don't misunderstand. I love these children and my sister very, very much. I see the struggles she goes through and it makes me sad to see her so exasperated on a daily basis.
I'm not the tight-assed aunt in the anecdote above. In fact, my nephling and nieceling absolutely adore being around me and call me on the phone and Facetime with me as much as they can. So, please don't assume I am a cold, uncaring, judgmental force in their lives because I am not. I am simply wanting the best for them, and I was unsure of what to do. Again, thank you for the advice.
posted by Falwless at 2:36 AM on August 26, 2011 [4 favorites]
"Your sister is TIRED." THIS! Kids are just exhausting. I'm guessing the last thing she wants is you telling her she's a bad mother.
posted by Blake at 4:22 AM on August 26, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Blake at 4:22 AM on August 26, 2011 [1 favorite]
This really depends on what your relationship is like with your sister and how easily you can talk to her - but could you ask her some open-ended questions about how she finds parenting? What's easy or hard, what she finds pleasing or frustrating about the way the children behave and her time with them? That might led into some discussions about parenting in wch you _might_ be able to offer some advice without it sounding critical. I sympathise with your situation (as another aunt) but think the limited time you can spend with your sister and her children make intervening very tricky.
posted by paduasoy at 4:24 AM on August 26, 2011
posted by paduasoy at 4:24 AM on August 26, 2011
Just want to add that you in no way sound like a cold, uncaring sister. In fact, you sound like a great sister for a) caring and wanting to help and b) getting advice on whether pitching in is a good idea rather than just going for it, and c) resolving to follow that advice.
I mean, really, if our closest family and friends can't call us out on the things that give them cause for concern, then who can? That doesn't mean I think you should in this case - I agree with the majority that that would cause more harm than good. But it's natural that you would wonder if maybe you could help, and it's a great thing to do to, as a non-parent, to ask other parents how this could go down.
posted by guessthis at 6:01 AM on August 26, 2011 [1 favorite]
I mean, really, if our closest family and friends can't call us out on the things that give them cause for concern, then who can? That doesn't mean I think you should in this case - I agree with the majority that that would cause more harm than good. But it's natural that you would wonder if maybe you could help, and it's a great thing to do to, as a non-parent, to ask other parents how this could go down.
posted by guessthis at 6:01 AM on August 26, 2011 [1 favorite]
You don't know the whole situation. There could be many reasons they avoid conflict. For all you know one of the parents or children has a terminal illness and they're trying to enjoy their time together. Or the husband could be the product of abuse and reacting to that. Or the family could be recovering from trauma such as an affair. You just don't know.
I commend you on your empathy and understanding which shows in your rsponses here.
posted by By The Grace of God at 6:12 AM on August 26, 2011 [1 favorite]
I commend you on your empathy and understanding which shows in your rsponses here.
posted by By The Grace of God at 6:12 AM on August 26, 2011 [1 favorite]
I don't think you sound cold at all. It's frustrating to see children acting up and not being called on it, particularly when you love everyone involved. I didn't become a parent myself until I was 34; before then I watched and sometimes judged my friends and my brother when it came to their children and had all kinds of opinions on how to raise a child. I knew, however, that they only thing I could do was just what's been recommended above - let the kids know that my rules were in place when they were with me and enforce accordingly. Kids pick up behavioural cues from everyone they come in contact with, not just their parents. I also knew that my opinions on child-raising would be questioned because I didn't have kids myself.
The thing that has struck me the most about being a parent is how little control I actually have over the way that my children behave. I try to teach them every day about manners and tact and empathy but in the end they are their unique selves and they will choose their behaviour. My boys are both school aged now and I'm not there for large amounts of their day - they have to negotiate life without me. And even with me, my prompts are often not enough to ensure that they always behave.
I'm sure your sister is aware that her children aren't always well-behaved and I do think it would be very difficult for you to broach the subject of her parenting skills in a way that wouldn't cause her to become defensive.
You should continue to be Good Aunt - don't be reluctant to let the kids know if they're acting in a way that is unacceptable to you (and explain why it's unacceptable) but always let them know that you love them, think positive thoughts for their future and be there for your sister as a good listening ear.
posted by h00py at 8:58 AM on August 26, 2011 [1 favorite]
The thing that has struck me the most about being a parent is how little control I actually have over the way that my children behave. I try to teach them every day about manners and tact and empathy but in the end they are their unique selves and they will choose their behaviour. My boys are both school aged now and I'm not there for large amounts of their day - they have to negotiate life without me. And even with me, my prompts are often not enough to ensure that they always behave.
I'm sure your sister is aware that her children aren't always well-behaved and I do think it would be very difficult for you to broach the subject of her parenting skills in a way that wouldn't cause her to become defensive.
You should continue to be Good Aunt - don't be reluctant to let the kids know if they're acting in a way that is unacceptable to you (and explain why it's unacceptable) but always let them know that you love them, think positive thoughts for their future and be there for your sister as a good listening ear.
posted by h00py at 8:58 AM on August 26, 2011 [1 favorite]
I don't think you sound cold at all! You sound like you care, and you want the best for your niece and nephew.
Just to put this in perspective: you only see the children occasionally, because you live states away from them. Either you are hearing about events third person, or really only know what goes on when you are around. Which is probably during holidays and special circumstances already, when the kids are excited and more likely to act up. That makes it easy for you to see when your sister slips up and say to yourself, "I would handle that so differently!"
But imagine if you were caring for those kids 24 hours a day, every day, striving for consistency even when you are tired, stressed or even sick yourself. Parents don't get vacation time and holidays. It's not surprising that your sister doesn't always do everything perfectly. She's bound to make mistakes sometimes!
You're the Good Aunt, so you are already playing with the kids and enjoying the time you have with them. That's helping your sister more than you know.
posted by misha at 11:56 AM on August 26, 2011 [2 favorites]
Just to put this in perspective: you only see the children occasionally, because you live states away from them. Either you are hearing about events third person, or really only know what goes on when you are around. Which is probably during holidays and special circumstances already, when the kids are excited and more likely to act up. That makes it easy for you to see when your sister slips up and say to yourself, "I would handle that so differently!"
But imagine if you were caring for those kids 24 hours a day, every day, striving for consistency even when you are tired, stressed or even sick yourself. Parents don't get vacation time and holidays. It's not surprising that your sister doesn't always do everything perfectly. She's bound to make mistakes sometimes!
You're the Good Aunt, so you are already playing with the kids and enjoying the time you have with them. That's helping your sister more than you know.
posted by misha at 11:56 AM on August 26, 2011 [2 favorites]
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