Help me Decide on a dodgy career move

May 30, 2005 10:58 AM

Please help me decide whether I should quit or try and get fired from my job!!! Need advice ASAP. More inside.

Work in a corporate environment. Insanely dull customer service job. Been thinking of quitting for awhile but heres the deal: Because its so corporate it does not give references. And I can't imagine ever wanting to work here again. So there seems to be no advantage to giving two weeks. However, if I get myself fired, I will receive employment insurance in Canada, and be paid to be off work for around 5 months (I work in an office environment where you can get EI for being fired, usually its not possible). Is this really as dodgy as it sounds? Five months off with pay sounds better than the no job, aimlessly move back to Montreal scene I have without it. What's the right thing to do?

posted by cascando to Work & Money (36 answers total)

Which would you rather say in your next job interview: That you left your last job or that you were fired?
posted by jca at 11:02 AM on May 30, 2005

Response by poster: I would just say that I left to go back to school. Remember, the company can only say the dates I left, not anything about my leaving.
posted by cascando at 11:05 AM on May 30, 2005

I guess you can always lie.

Leave goatse open on your desk or something. Or urinate on your boss' keyboard (I've had a fantasy of doing that for a long time).
posted by adampsyche at 11:05 AM on May 30, 2005

Consider being really grownup and asking for a leave of absence for personal reasons. You may find it difficult to get the next job and want to go back. The world is smaller than you think and even though you may not care about your employer's opinion today, that might change. The HR Dept. may not give a reference, but your boss might anyway.

If you really want to self-terminate, start abusing sick time, then abuse unpaid time off. You'll enjoy it, and if you're really unsubtle, it should be effective.
posted by theora55 at 11:14 AM on May 30, 2005

Leave goatse open on your desk or something

He just wants to get fired, not shunned by society. ;)
posted by wsg at 11:14 AM on May 30, 2005

I didn't try to get laid off, but when I was, a 5 month vacation was really, really nice. I highly recommend you get yourself on the dole as soon as possible.
posted by cmonkey at 11:15 AM on May 30, 2005

Stick it to the man, get yourself fired in a glorious fashion.
posted by trbrts at 11:15 AM on May 30, 2005

So you're gonna quit? I don't think so... I'm just not gonna go anymore.
posted by idontlikewords at 11:21 AM on May 30, 2005

I hate to be a killjoy, but isn't it kind of like stealing if you take money you don't need from a government program specifically set up to help people who genuinely need it? The right thing to do would be to find another job and quit this one as soon as you do, not expect other people to pay for your five month vacation.
posted by MegoSteve at 11:34 AM on May 30, 2005

Why not look for another job while you still draw a paycheck from the current one?
posted by mischief at 11:35 AM on May 30, 2005

Just remember, nothing illegal (no assault or urine). You don't want a criminal complaint or conviction following you (HR may remember and tell about that).
posted by jmgorman at 11:35 AM on May 30, 2005

What's the right thing to do?

The RIGHT thing to do is find another job and not deliberately go on the dole. Shouldn't the "employment insurance" go towards those who truly need it when they lose their job through no fault of their own?
posted by davidmsc at 11:46 AM on May 30, 2005 [1 favorite]

I think if they fire you for "misconduct" then you won't get benefits.

http://www.hrsdc.gc.ca/asp/gateway.asp?hr=/en/ei/information/misconduct.shtml&hs=tyt#are
posted by Big Fat Tycoon at 11:47 AM on May 30, 2005

If you get fired FOR CAUSE, you cannot get EI.

The cause must have been documented by the empoyer, but if they have evidence, then you will be denied EI. EI only covers dismissals if they were wrongful (or likely wrongful) dismissals. Also, there are certain circumstances where you can get covered when you quit. But it's in limited circumstances. You must quit for Just Cause (examples: history of harrassment in the workplace, unsafe working conditions).

But don't trust me. Ask them yourself. HRDC's official scoop.

The following events may be grounds for a disqualification:

- voluntarily leaving employment without just cause
- losing employment by reason of one's own misconduct
- refusal or failure to apply, without good cause, for suitable employment that is vacant or is becoming vacant, or failure to accept that employment after being offered it
- neglect to avail, without good cause, of an opportunity for suitable employment
etc

What's the right thing to do? Read the posts by MegoSteve, mischief & davidmsc again, and take them to heart.
posted by raedyn at 11:49 AM on May 30, 2005

I pay for your dole. If you're employable, get another job. I pay high taxes, and don't really mind because it makes for a better society, but things like this kind of piss me off. You don't like your job? Quit and get another, or get another and then quit. On preview: raedyn was much more level-headed and is actually correct. If you're fired for cause, no EI for you. And IMHO, that's how it should be. Getting layed off, needing re-training, other legit issues - those are reasons why I support EI entirely. Getting yourself fired on purpose, then expecting EI, is abusing the system.
posted by fionab at 11:53 AM on May 30, 2005

I hate to be a killjoy, but isn't it kind of like stealing if you take money you don't need from a government program specifically set up to help people who genuinely need it?

Not if you already paid for it. Being that it's government money, and he's a Canadian citizen, he has. God only knows this country saps the living hell out of everyone's paycheque as is (there ain't no way you're convincing me what the government gives/gave me is worth 30% - 50% of a paycheque for life. well, not unless you can get me in on the adscam money).

Honestly, why don't you just ask for a lay-off? The company would be smart to help you make that happen.

If you do go ahead with your plan, don't list this company on your resume. Of course, you'll confuse the HELL out of your next employer when you don't due to the gap in employment, and lower your chances of finding a new job because of this.

Is it worth tarnishing your resume over this? What if the employer you had before this one knows that you went to work at the place you're at now? Your potential employer will find this out and most definitely will want the juicy details on why you left it out of your resume.
posted by shepd at 11:53 AM on May 30, 2005

cascando, note the following about EI in Canada: "if you are fired due to your own misconduct, you will not be paid regular benefits." The details are here.

Note that they will ask your employer to fill out a form which includes the reason for your dismissal, so they will hear your employer's side of the story. In theory, "[t]he employer’s statement carries neither more nor less weight than the statement of the person claiming benefits. The agent must examine objectively, each testimony, without accepting one or the other as necessarily true." In practice, I'd guess the employer carries more weight with HRDSC, especially given that they enjoy using any and all excuses to deny people benefits even when they are eligible.

In short: if you do something sure to get you fired, you also probably won't be eligible for EI.
posted by louigi at 11:54 AM on May 30, 2005

Megosteve--it is a fair question and you are not being a kill joy--just putting the issue in its proper ethical context. Costcando, don't underestimate the down side(s) of getting fired (the world is much smaller than you think). You are asking for advice--here it is--stop whining, find another position and then resign.
posted by rmhsinc at 11:57 AM on May 30, 2005

Also, even if you qualify, EI is only 55% of what you were earning when you were working, it pays nothing at all for the first two weeks (or longer if you get any severence or holiday pay coming your way). They expect you to be looking for a job the whole time (they can deny you benefits if you can't prove you're actively looking for work, or if you refuse job offers, or you are not available to work - like going to school or leaving the province). All $$ you earn while on EI must be reported to them, and they'll dock most of your earnings off of your benefits cheque. It's not exactly the same as a paid vacation.
posted by raedyn at 11:57 AM on May 30, 2005

And by layed off, of course I mean laid off. But I think if you're expecting to lay around on EI, it's an apt typo. You're asking for the right thing to do? It seems clear to me.
posted by fionab at 12:01 PM on May 30, 2005

What's the right thing to do?

That's not a serious question, is it?
posted by cribcage at 12:05 PM on May 30, 2005

I'd just take the high road, and either quit with notice given, or ask to get laid off. In the meantime, squirrel away money for when you're unemployed and look for another job.

In the past, when I've quit a job, I just explained why, truthfully, and it's never hurt. If it made me bored, I said so, etc.
posted by spinifex23 at 12:07 PM on May 30, 2005

To add to what everyone else has said: From personal experience, moving while on an EI claim is a PITA as your benefits are determined by where you live -- lots of extra paperwork and interruptions in cash flow.

I disagree with the argument that you're entitled to EI just because we all pay lots of taxes. It's insurance that's paid out of premiums, not general tax revenues. Follow the good advice here and take the high road.
posted by RibaldOne at 12:20 PM on May 30, 2005

Response by poster: K. Obviously living in Vancouver has left me kinda ethically challenged, as most people I know work in the film industry, where EI is basically an income subsidy for them when they dont feel like working. A lot of industries rock it. Does that make it ethically OK? No, of course not. It is however a tax I pay and have paid for years, with no benefit at all. So of course seeing the money go every paycheck becomes slightly embittering. Working for companies that will screw the employees, and watching my government do it, sometimes makes me wonder if this whole "resume" ethics scenario is just mostly just to keep the sheep in line.
posted by cascando at 12:21 PM on May 30, 2005

Please help me decide whether I should quit or try and get fired from my job!

Your question doesn't mention anything about finding a new job. You want an out. Buck up and find one. It isn't about what the right thing to do or the high road...it's about the best thing to do to help yourself. To get yourself purposefully fired doesn't exactly make you an attractive future employee.

Two weeks' notice is more of a civility extended towards your coworkers. They have long memories and longer social circles. Also, two weeks notice and references have little to do with each other. Usually, you give two weeks after accepting a new position. No need for references then.

Play the game. Find new job and leave under cordial terms per spinifex23's suggestion. It'll get your further faster.
posted by pedantic at 12:37 PM on May 30, 2005

"no advantage to giving two weeks."

How about simple common courtesy? (on preview: damn you pedantic!)

I'll also suggest you get a new job and leave this one after.

When leaving my last job, many people were perplexed that I didn't just call in sick for a week, since I had quite a bit of unused sicktime. The work ethic in this country is really going to hell (as I type this from work).
posted by ODiV at 12:44 PM on May 30, 2005

I don't know about the right thing to do, but I would say the smart thing to do is to quit. I quit a job once that I NEVER EVER planned to go back to... and ended up back within a year because I wasn't able to find other employment and I knew they would hire me. You may think now you'll never need to go back, but you don't know what will happen in the future.

Plus, there's the added bonus of not having to lie or say you've been fired if you're ever asked in an interview for another job.
posted by geeky at 4:24 PM on May 30, 2005

You know, I can't get it in me to feel bad when people scam EI. It only seems to benefit some people. I was laid off because the restaurant I worked closed - I was told I didn't qualify because I wanted to go back to school, but I was willing to look for part-time work (however, I would have qualified for going back to school and not working at all, because that counted as a training program). My mom had to quit a job due to an abusive boss (screaming, personally harassing employees - it was insane), nada.

cascando - can any of your aquaintences hook you up with a job in the film industry? That sounds a lot less boring. Actually, can any hook me up? I'd do extra work, manual labour, whatever.
posted by jb at 5:56 PM on May 30, 2005

Getting fired is almost never worth the only benefit, unemployment benefits - which you will not get if you are fired for cause, unless you really have no career and no career ambitions. As jca asked in the very first post, which would you rather explain to a potential new employer?

You also said, "the company can only say the dates I left, not anything about my leaving." Are you sure? I think my company, conservative as they are, will let the caller know how someone left (quit, fired, laid-off, retired, etc.), but nothing else.
posted by caddis at 6:05 PM on May 30, 2005

Don't quit until you've found a new job. Until then, just go in and do a half-arsed job.
posted by krisjohn at 6:13 PM on May 30, 2005

Best answer: Look at it this way... had you decided to do the right thing in the first place, you would never have needed to post this "question" to AxMe. You're only looking for people to help you think that doing the wrong thing is ok. You obviously know it's wrong, so don't do it. The world has all the liars and cheats it needs. Don't join them. Doing the right thing is ALWAYS better. Wrong things ALWAYS manage to come back around and get you, one way or another... large or small, tomorrow or ten years from now.
posted by Witty at 8:47 PM on May 30, 2005

I'll add to the comments above, that if you ever want a job with a high to very high level of security clearance, one question you have to answer is if you've ever been fired for cause -- and then provide details.

If you have the misfortune of needing a Top Secret clearance, this will be accompanied by a polygraph.

On preview, what Witty and others have said.
posted by dreamsign at 9:57 PM on May 30, 2005

Remember, the company can only say the dates I left, not anything about my leaving.

Hmm. Maybe. That doesn't mean that's the only information they'll pry loose, though. ("[E]ven close-mouthed types might answer the question: 'Would you hire this person again?'")
posted by Guy Smiley at 10:49 PM on May 30, 2005

Don't get fired, don't quit without a new job. Both those are bad ideas, without the moral arguments.

The notion that you can't relocate while collecting this benefit in Canada sounds totally assy. What about people who want to move to locations with greater opportunity for work!? Being a native of Michigan, I had to do that, way back when. I had no trouble transferring benefits, although it did make a ludicrous gap between payments.
posted by Goofyy at 11:18 PM on May 30, 2005

The notion that you can't relocate while collecting this benefit in Canada sounds totally assy. What about people who want to move to locations with greater opportunity for work!?

No, you can relocate within Canada and continue to collect. I just remember that moving to a different "EI region" meant extra trips into the EI office, a bunch of extra paperwork, and a big gap in cash flow. I can't find anything on this but it may also affect your benefits as EI is determined in part by the unemployment rate in your region.
posted by RibaldOne at 7:26 AM on May 31, 2005

All ethical questions aside, I can tell you from personal experience that just because the company policy is only to confirm dates of employment doesn't mean that people checking references don't get the real picture.

I have ignored my employer's demand and given both positive and negative answers on references in the past. Sometimes very obliquely, sometimes explicitly.

My personal favorite:

"Could you tell me something about X's performance while with your organization?"
"No, I'm sorry. Company policy is to only confirm dates of employment and not comment beyond that. Concerns about legal liability, you know. Sort of like the acceptable use policy on internet access we put in last May out of concern over child porn downloads."

I bet you can guess when this dude's employment dates ended.
posted by phearlez at 8:37 AM on May 31, 2005