My ex-doula wants to sue. I'm sure she can but when?
August 7, 2011 11:39 PM Subscribe
My childbirth education coach/ doula is trying to sue me. She says I am refusing to pay but she's well aware that I don't have an income any longer and has even helped me with my job search. What kind of rights do I have in the amount of time that I'm given or the wording that she's using?
I know you are not my lawyer and I'm sure my doula can sue me but I want to be sure that I am seeing this situation correctly so I can figure out what to do.
I hired this woman last year to be both my childbirth education teacher and birth doula. I started payments fully intending to pay it all off. We made payment arrangements for the total 530.00 because I knew and told her that one lump sum wasn't going to be possible for me on one income. Payments were 105 each month.
In January, I started maternity leave and was not going to be able to go back to work. I told her this and also that I was not getting severance pay (as was the plan - another story) or unemployment because I don't qualify. We agreed to talk about the final two payments another time due for February and March.
At our next discussion in April, she cut the remaining fee of 210 in half because she missed my son's birth by going home as we were heading to deliver at the hospital right then. She made two visits and a few calls or so to check on us postpartum.
As always, I told her I would pay as soon as I could and I honestly never could. My money and money I borrowed went towards the medical costs of my son before his birth as it became an emergency situation and he required ultrasounds and I had checkups because I wasn't well the month before. These checkups and my paying out of pocket continued after his birth as insurance didn't kick in immediately and he needed to be seen because of the circumstances surrounding his birth (they believe he stopped growing as he was severely small, no fluid, possible kidney problem, cord wrapped multiple times so he was to be induced early but came a day earlier).
We spoke in mid-June, she asked if it would help for her to contact her doula group to see if anyone needed a nanny. I said yes, saw one response directed to her (I saw because I'm in the group as I at one time wanted to be a doula), she contacted me to verify my information and nothing came of it. I don't at all believe she had to help this way but I think it shows that my financial situation needed the help. That I wouldn't have consented to it had I already had an income.
At the end of June, I told her that I was trying to set up work (aside from applying to many places which hasn't worked out) and that if it worked could I send her the money as I got it. I would be charging a small fee to take pictures of family and friends. She gave me till July 10th. I told her that it wouldn't be by the tenth (only one person set a date by then at the time). She asked if it would be by the 30th and me being optimistic told her "I should think so". I had four people interested and at 50 dollars each, it would have been taken care of. Well it didn't work out and not for lack of trying. I was rescheduled multiple times by one and not contacted again by the others. I told her this by text on the 19th but that I was still trying.
She finally responded by sending me a text on the 25th saying to pay by the 31st no exception. I couldn't get the money together quickly enough and got a letter on the 3rd of this month saying that she spoke to a lawyer and if I don't pay her by the 10th (Wednesday) that she is going to sue because I am refusing to pay and that I have a lot of excuses.
I am not refusing to pay. It may look like I have excuses and everyone is welcome to agree to that but I am without an income and without savings. I seriously do not have money coming in anymore from anywhere. I would love to pay her, have wanted to be able to, and am still seriously trying to figure out what I have to sell in order to do so. I have nothing rescheduled as far as photography goes. My aunts have been nice enough to pay my bills for the month and neither can give me anymore money because they didn't have it to begin with even when my son needed ultrasounds those months ago (though they still have then). My mother is not able to work and one sister just started working last week while the other lost her job last month.
I am grateful that she has agreed to arrangements as she has and has dealt with me this long. I am aware that she has the right to sue.
My issue is if she can sue me after giving me from the 31st of July to the 10th of August or is it counting when we first agreed to arrangements or does that not even matter?
Is this considered refusing to pay when I don't have the ability to do so but fully intend to?
Do I respond to her in any way?
I have a lawyer's number from one aunt that I'm going to call. Is there anything I should do beyond that?
I know you are not my lawyer and I'm sure my doula can sue me but I want to be sure that I am seeing this situation correctly so I can figure out what to do.
I hired this woman last year to be both my childbirth education teacher and birth doula. I started payments fully intending to pay it all off. We made payment arrangements for the total 530.00 because I knew and told her that one lump sum wasn't going to be possible for me on one income. Payments were 105 each month.
In January, I started maternity leave and was not going to be able to go back to work. I told her this and also that I was not getting severance pay (as was the plan - another story) or unemployment because I don't qualify. We agreed to talk about the final two payments another time due for February and March.
At our next discussion in April, she cut the remaining fee of 210 in half because she missed my son's birth by going home as we were heading to deliver at the hospital right then. She made two visits and a few calls or so to check on us postpartum.
As always, I told her I would pay as soon as I could and I honestly never could. My money and money I borrowed went towards the medical costs of my son before his birth as it became an emergency situation and he required ultrasounds and I had checkups because I wasn't well the month before. These checkups and my paying out of pocket continued after his birth as insurance didn't kick in immediately and he needed to be seen because of the circumstances surrounding his birth (they believe he stopped growing as he was severely small, no fluid, possible kidney problem, cord wrapped multiple times so he was to be induced early but came a day earlier).
We spoke in mid-June, she asked if it would help for her to contact her doula group to see if anyone needed a nanny. I said yes, saw one response directed to her (I saw because I'm in the group as I at one time wanted to be a doula), she contacted me to verify my information and nothing came of it. I don't at all believe she had to help this way but I think it shows that my financial situation needed the help. That I wouldn't have consented to it had I already had an income.
At the end of June, I told her that I was trying to set up work (aside from applying to many places which hasn't worked out) and that if it worked could I send her the money as I got it. I would be charging a small fee to take pictures of family and friends. She gave me till July 10th. I told her that it wouldn't be by the tenth (only one person set a date by then at the time). She asked if it would be by the 30th and me being optimistic told her "I should think so". I had four people interested and at 50 dollars each, it would have been taken care of. Well it didn't work out and not for lack of trying. I was rescheduled multiple times by one and not contacted again by the others. I told her this by text on the 19th but that I was still trying.
She finally responded by sending me a text on the 25th saying to pay by the 31st no exception. I couldn't get the money together quickly enough and got a letter on the 3rd of this month saying that she spoke to a lawyer and if I don't pay her by the 10th (Wednesday) that she is going to sue because I am refusing to pay and that I have a lot of excuses.
I am not refusing to pay. It may look like I have excuses and everyone is welcome to agree to that but I am without an income and without savings. I seriously do not have money coming in anymore from anywhere. I would love to pay her, have wanted to be able to, and am still seriously trying to figure out what I have to sell in order to do so. I have nothing rescheduled as far as photography goes. My aunts have been nice enough to pay my bills for the month and neither can give me anymore money because they didn't have it to begin with even when my son needed ultrasounds those months ago (though they still have then). My mother is not able to work and one sister just started working last week while the other lost her job last month.
I am grateful that she has agreed to arrangements as she has and has dealt with me this long. I am aware that she has the right to sue.
My issue is if she can sue me after giving me from the 31st of July to the 10th of August or is it counting when we first agreed to arrangements or does that not even matter?
Is this considered refusing to pay when I don't have the ability to do so but fully intend to?
Do I respond to her in any way?
I have a lawyer's number from one aunt that I'm going to call. Is there anything I should do beyond that?
Sorry, this is confusing. Just to clarify (because it may help put things in perspective for subsequent advice, and whether it's even worth her time to sue you): exactly how much does she say you still owe her?
posted by scody at 11:53 PM on August 7, 2011
posted by scody at 11:53 PM on August 7, 2011
So, to get this clear, the final amount in dispute is $105 (half 210, the two final payments)? That would make any lawyering completely counterproductive, as any non-free legal advice will cost more than the amount in question. IANAL but sounds like this would end up in small claims court, and your wages might get garnished whenever you get a job.
posted by benzenedream at 11:53 PM on August 7, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by benzenedream at 11:53 PM on August 7, 2011 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Yes, the remaining amount is 105. I should add (I forgot, I'm sorry) that she wants to sue for costs as well. She never mentioned anything previously about paying by the 31st of July until the 25th of July and then the 10th was mentioned on the 3rd.
posted by grablife365 at 12:04 AM on August 8, 2011
posted by grablife365 at 12:04 AM on August 8, 2011
This is not legal advice, this may not be even particularly good advice, but do you have anything you can sell (say, the TV) to get this woman off your back?
Sounds like she's needing the cash too and is trying to scare it out of you. This isn't very cool behaviour, but there might be financial year considerations- she might have taxes etc she's trying to cover, and things can get messy (I am not an accountant either) when bills span financial years.
posted by titanium_geek at 12:10 AM on August 8, 2011 [5 favorites]
Sounds like she's needing the cash too and is trying to scare it out of you. This isn't very cool behaviour, but there might be financial year considerations- she might have taxes etc she's trying to cover, and things can get messy (I am not an accountant either) when bills span financial years.
posted by titanium_geek at 12:10 AM on August 8, 2011 [5 favorites]
I have been in your doula's shoes and I suspect she just fears that she will never get paid, and is hoping that this will motivate you to pay her back.
As everyone else is pointing out, it's really too small an amount of money to be worth suing for, but she doesn't have a collections agency as she is just an individual, so there is very little recourse for her. If you really have no assets then there is nothing for her to gain by suing you, as the other poster mentioned, she could potentially get garnished wages in the future but that's no different from you simply paying her when you have the money in the future. She must believe that you actually have some money that you could pay her with, I would think, either that or she just doesn't trust you and wants legal ramifications if you continue to default.
It does sound like you've been through some hard times in the past 8 months, and that you have very little money to work with. However, do you really have zero money? Aren't you worried about what you're going to do for food? A place to live? I would think that would be the bigger question.
If you have money, but you just can't pull together $105, then I would suggest you do anything you can do to gain her trust back that you really mean to pay this bill. Even if it means giving her $5 a week, it sounds like she is a human being and that she tried to be understanding with you, but now she's given up. If you give her reason to believe that you are doing this in good faith (i.e. not just verbal reassurance but some actual cash, however little), I bet the threat of lawsuit would go away.
posted by treehorn+bunny at 12:12 AM on August 8, 2011 [17 favorites]
As everyone else is pointing out, it's really too small an amount of money to be worth suing for, but she doesn't have a collections agency as she is just an individual, so there is very little recourse for her. If you really have no assets then there is nothing for her to gain by suing you, as the other poster mentioned, she could potentially get garnished wages in the future but that's no different from you simply paying her when you have the money in the future. She must believe that you actually have some money that you could pay her with, I would think, either that or she just doesn't trust you and wants legal ramifications if you continue to default.
It does sound like you've been through some hard times in the past 8 months, and that you have very little money to work with. However, do you really have zero money? Aren't you worried about what you're going to do for food? A place to live? I would think that would be the bigger question.
If you have money, but you just can't pull together $105, then I would suggest you do anything you can do to gain her trust back that you really mean to pay this bill. Even if it means giving her $5 a week, it sounds like she is a human being and that she tried to be understanding with you, but now she's given up. If you give her reason to believe that you are doing this in good faith (i.e. not just verbal reassurance but some actual cash, however little), I bet the threat of lawsuit would go away.
posted by treehorn+bunny at 12:12 AM on August 8, 2011 [17 favorites]
Basically you're asking whether she has the right to sue you with so little warning, is that right? I think she does (though IANAL). The debt is long long past due and she is under no obligation to offer you any further extensions. She could sue you today if she wanted; the extra time is offered to you only to give you one last chance to pay.
This is a negotiation tactic, by the way, meant to light a little fire under your chair. You are free to make a counter-offer (though she might ignore it). You can propose a payment plan, or you can offer $50 and call it paid, or you can offer to pay the whole thing by some future date. Not responding means she will most likely proceed with a lawsuit. Her end goal is recovering her money; give her an option where this happens (and for real happens, not conditional on your finding work, or anything like that; clearly she has run out of patience) and she would certainly not sue you.
posted by PercussivePaul at 12:25 AM on August 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
This is a negotiation tactic, by the way, meant to light a little fire under your chair. You are free to make a counter-offer (though she might ignore it). You can propose a payment plan, or you can offer $50 and call it paid, or you can offer to pay the whole thing by some future date. Not responding means she will most likely proceed with a lawsuit. Her end goal is recovering her money; give her an option where this happens (and for real happens, not conditional on your finding work, or anything like that; clearly she has run out of patience) and she would certainly not sue you.
posted by PercussivePaul at 12:25 AM on August 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
How to Sue in Small Claims Court is a PDF by the Texas Young Lawyer's Association, which explains the basics about small claims court. It explains what the procedure is, and it explains what would happen if she won. (It explains what it means for the court to garnish your wages etc. It's worth taking a look at that section of the document at least.)
more info on small claims court in Texas - sounds like it usually costs $31 to sue, more if she chooses a jury trial, and she can ask the judge to add those costs to the judgment against you. That page also says: "It may be inadvisable to sue a person or business who has no money or assets and who is unlikely to acquire any in the foreseeable future. However, court judgments are enforceable for at least 10 years in many states and can usually be renewed. A person with no assets now may inherit money or have some other change of circumstances in the future."
I agree with treehorn+bunny that you should try to come to another arrangement with her, paying $5/week or whatever small amount shows you are serious about paying her back.
posted by LobsterMitten at 12:36 AM on August 8, 2011
more info on small claims court in Texas - sounds like it usually costs $31 to sue, more if she chooses a jury trial, and she can ask the judge to add those costs to the judgment against you. That page also says: "It may be inadvisable to sue a person or business who has no money or assets and who is unlikely to acquire any in the foreseeable future. However, court judgments are enforceable for at least 10 years in many states and can usually be renewed. A person with no assets now may inherit money or have some other change of circumstances in the future."
I agree with treehorn+bunny that you should try to come to another arrangement with her, paying $5/week or whatever small amount shows you are serious about paying her back.
posted by LobsterMitten at 12:36 AM on August 8, 2011
I'm not sure what TX county you are in, but here is more information from Denton County. First, she would have to file her lawsuit. Then, the court will have to deliver it to you ("serve you"). Then you would have 10 days to reply, according to that link. (In California, it would be more, if they were unable to serve you in person and instead had to deliver the documents to you via, e.g., your roommate. That document did not specify if that distinction mattered in that county). Then, they'll set a trial date. So, there will likely be a few weeks, is what I'm saying.
The downside to you of her suing is that it looks like you could end up liable for her court costs ($31 plus service fees, approx $60-$75). But fundamentally, the court can't get money from you that you don't have either, so their options will be limited. Good luck. You might point out that you are already planning to pay her as soon as you can, and that suing you will only cost her additional money, making it even longer until she breaks even.
posted by slidell at 12:51 AM on August 8, 2011
The downside to you of her suing is that it looks like you could end up liable for her court costs ($31 plus service fees, approx $60-$75). But fundamentally, the court can't get money from you that you don't have either, so their options will be limited. Good luck. You might point out that you are already planning to pay her as soon as you can, and that suing you will only cost her additional money, making it even longer until she breaks even.
posted by slidell at 12:51 AM on August 8, 2011
Response by poster: Thank you so much. This is really helping me.
treehorn+bunny, yes it worries me in the biggest way especially since this is the first time I've been without work and income to fall back on and wasn't able to foresee what would take my savings. That's all a part of my other set of worries but since I have no income, seriously nothing coming from anywhere, I was able to qualify for assistance on food though I'm up for review right now. I think 5 dollars a week I may be able to do. I'm nervous about asking her to do that in case that falls through too but that is a great idea I hadn't considered.
PercussivePaul, I do think that I'll send her what I can find and propose a payment plan of a small amount. Maybe a weekly plan with an ending date. And thank you for letting me know about the time frame.
LobsterMitten, that PDF is exactly what I'm in the middle of reading. Thank you for the sources.
slidell, thank you. I think I may write her a letter to show my intent. Adding in extra costs really will take me longer to take care of.
posted by grablife365 at 12:54 AM on August 8, 2011
treehorn+bunny, yes it worries me in the biggest way especially since this is the first time I've been without work and income to fall back on and wasn't able to foresee what would take my savings. That's all a part of my other set of worries but since I have no income, seriously nothing coming from anywhere, I was able to qualify for assistance on food though I'm up for review right now. I think 5 dollars a week I may be able to do. I'm nervous about asking her to do that in case that falls through too but that is a great idea I hadn't considered.
PercussivePaul, I do think that I'll send her what I can find and propose a payment plan of a small amount. Maybe a weekly plan with an ending date. And thank you for letting me know about the time frame.
LobsterMitten, that PDF is exactly what I'm in the middle of reading. Thank you for the sources.
slidell, thank you. I think I may write her a letter to show my intent. Adding in extra costs really will take me longer to take care of.
posted by grablife365 at 12:54 AM on August 8, 2011
I am not yet a lawyer, and I did not fully understand your question, so I cannot give you legal advice.
As a general rule, which I suppose may or may not be true in your jurisdiction, there is no legal difference between being unwilling to pay a debt and being unable to pay the debt.
If she sues you and you do not respond, most jurisdictions will automatically rule in her favor. If she does not sue you, then you probably do not NEED to respond to her -- but doesn't it seem likely that blowing her off would just damage the relationship further? What good would come of it?
To the extent that you can afford to, talk to your aunt's lawyer and/or to a free legal aid clinic in your area. (Certainly do this once you have been sued, and consider doing it even beforehand.) Depending on the original deal you struck, and depending on who said what after the birth, it may prove legally important that she did not actually show up at the birth. Do not get your hopes up, but make sure to mention this detail when you talk to an attorney.
I'm sorry to hear of your child's medical problems, and I wish you the best of luck in resolving your legal problems.
posted by foursentences at 1:01 AM on August 8, 2011
As a general rule, which I suppose may or may not be true in your jurisdiction, there is no legal difference between being unwilling to pay a debt and being unable to pay the debt.
If she sues you and you do not respond, most jurisdictions will automatically rule in her favor. If she does not sue you, then you probably do not NEED to respond to her -- but doesn't it seem likely that blowing her off would just damage the relationship further? What good would come of it?
To the extent that you can afford to, talk to your aunt's lawyer and/or to a free legal aid clinic in your area. (Certainly do this once you have been sued, and consider doing it even beforehand.) Depending on the original deal you struck, and depending on who said what after the birth, it may prove legally important that she did not actually show up at the birth. Do not get your hopes up, but make sure to mention this detail when you talk to an attorney.
I'm sorry to hear of your child's medical problems, and I wish you the best of luck in resolving your legal problems.
posted by foursentences at 1:01 AM on August 8, 2011
Response by poster: foursentences, I wasn't sure if my responding would mess me up further. I didn't want to risk it cause I have no idea how being sued works and I didn't have any ideas on what to say to her. I'm planning a response now. And thank you. He's doing well. Still a tiny little thing but he's checking out to be better than expected.
posted by grablife365 at 1:12 AM on August 8, 2011
posted by grablife365 at 1:12 AM on August 8, 2011
It's frustrating to see people on this site always get worked up about their legal rights and the technicalities, when the fact remains that they have done something wrong and are now trying to get out of it.
I sympathise that you may be having trouble in other areas, but you have taken a service from this woman, and should pay her what you agreed - it is not really her problem that you cannot afford it, or are still looking for work. The fact that she was somewhat involved in your search is irrelevant. And plus, for all you know, she could be in as dire a financial situation as you.
Don't waste your time finding or calling a lawyer. All she wants is her money - spend that time thinking of a way to pay her, even if it is only a tiny bit at a time. Sell some of your possessions, do some babysitting..... there is always a way.
posted by ryanbryan at 1:23 AM on August 8, 2011 [35 favorites]
I sympathise that you may be having trouble in other areas, but you have taken a service from this woman, and should pay her what you agreed - it is not really her problem that you cannot afford it, or are still looking for work. The fact that she was somewhat involved in your search is irrelevant. And plus, for all you know, she could be in as dire a financial situation as you.
Don't waste your time finding or calling a lawyer. All she wants is her money - spend that time thinking of a way to pay her, even if it is only a tiny bit at a time. Sell some of your possessions, do some babysitting..... there is always a way.
posted by ryanbryan at 1:23 AM on August 8, 2011 [35 favorites]
Response by poster: ryanbryan, if I were trying to get out of it, I don't think I would be trying to figure out how much time I have and how to best take care of it, now would I?
posted by grablife365 at 1:50 AM on August 8, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by grablife365 at 1:50 AM on August 8, 2011 [2 favorites]
a) Did you sign a contract or anything else with this woman?
If yes, b) What does the contract say happens in the event she doesn't provide the service contracted for? (Didn't show up at the birth) What if you don't pay?
and c) when you "agreed" to various payment plans, was this in writing or just orally?
TINLA, but no, the law doesn't generally care whether you WANT to pay, just whether you're obligated to. And it's not at all clear what your obligation is without a signed contract. If you don't have one, this may just be an empty threat.
Now that she's made the threat, though, don't talk with her anymore, and certainly don't put anything in writing (includes e-mail), until after you talk to a lawyer.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 2:04 AM on August 8, 2011 [3 favorites]
If yes, b) What does the contract say happens in the event she doesn't provide the service contracted for? (Didn't show up at the birth) What if you don't pay?
and c) when you "agreed" to various payment plans, was this in writing or just orally?
TINLA, but no, the law doesn't generally care whether you WANT to pay, just whether you're obligated to. And it's not at all clear what your obligation is without a signed contract. If you don't have one, this may just be an empty threat.
Now that she's made the threat, though, don't talk with her anymore, and certainly don't put anything in writing (includes e-mail), until after you talk to a lawyer.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 2:04 AM on August 8, 2011 [3 favorites]
I'm curious about the part where she wasn't present at the birth. Was it part of your contract with her that she was supposed to be present? Does she have it in writing that you were willing to still pay half of the $210 that you owed her even though she wasn't present? And I'm not understanding exactly what happened - did you call her and ask her to go to the hospital as you were in labor and she just turned around and went home instead because she couldn't be bothered to go to the birth?
I'm not a lawyer but if she didn't provide the service she promised to provide and you didn't put into writing that you would pay her anyway, you may have an argument for not paying her this money. However I don't know all the details of your agreement with her so I'm not sure whether this is the case.
posted by hazyjane at 4:06 AM on August 8, 2011 [3 favorites]
I'm not a lawyer but if she didn't provide the service she promised to provide and you didn't put into writing that you would pay her anyway, you may have an argument for not paying her this money. However I don't know all the details of your agreement with her so I'm not sure whether this is the case.
posted by hazyjane at 4:06 AM on August 8, 2011 [3 favorites]
I too am curious about the not being at the birth part. Is this what you were paying for, or were her services more educational, like a private lamaze coach, where attending the birth is a bonus but not a requirement?
Putting it another way, she knocked 1/5 off of her fee for not attending. Is this a fair discount, or not? How much work did she actually put in prior to the birth?
She seems to be trying to get the upper hand here, which she may be entitled to do. But maybe she isn't entitled to that- maybe she knows that not attending the birth damages her claim to the remaining $105 and is trying to bully you into paying.
I guess you have to decide at this point what the easiest path is. Do you pay her $5 a week until you've paid off the bill and call it an expensive lesson learned? Or do you try to fight with her and claim that not attending the birth is really worth 2/5 of the bill and not 1/5 as she claims? Maybe the easiest path is to tell her that you think you have already paid her for all the services she rendered, and to go ahead and sue you. The gamble there is whether she will actually sue, and then whether the court would agree with her or with you. Best case, you are off the hook. Worst case, you get stuck with another $100 or so in small claims court costs.
Another option would be to find some family or friend to borrow the money from and just pay her off to shut her up.
posted by gjc at 4:31 AM on August 8, 2011 [2 favorites]
Putting it another way, she knocked 1/5 off of her fee for not attending. Is this a fair discount, or not? How much work did she actually put in prior to the birth?
She seems to be trying to get the upper hand here, which she may be entitled to do. But maybe she isn't entitled to that- maybe she knows that not attending the birth damages her claim to the remaining $105 and is trying to bully you into paying.
I guess you have to decide at this point what the easiest path is. Do you pay her $5 a week until you've paid off the bill and call it an expensive lesson learned? Or do you try to fight with her and claim that not attending the birth is really worth 2/5 of the bill and not 1/5 as she claims? Maybe the easiest path is to tell her that you think you have already paid her for all the services she rendered, and to go ahead and sue you. The gamble there is whether she will actually sue, and then whether the court would agree with her or with you. Best case, you are off the hook. Worst case, you get stuck with another $100 or so in small claims court costs.
Another option would be to find some family or friend to borrow the money from and just pay her off to shut her up.
posted by gjc at 4:31 AM on August 8, 2011 [2 favorites]
She never mentioned anything previously about paying by the 31st of July until the 25th of July doesn't jive with She gave me till July 10th. I told her that it wouldn't be by the tenth [...] She asked if it would be by the 30th and me being optimistic told her "I should think so".
i understand you're frustrated and have a lot on your plate - but this woman has given you so much leeway. you've given her many promises to pay and then gave nothing, not even offering the $5/week or month or whatever to show her you have more than lipservice. she has threatened suing to show you she's serious. it worked. you're now treating it like a hard deadline.
the fact of the matter is that you paid other bills when they came due because those companies were serious. she's just gotten serious. i can't really blame her. in her line of work, i bet a lot of people take her services then have a story about how they can't pay. i'm sure the stories are all legitimate, but that doesn't help her at all. she has basically given you a 5-6 month interest free loan.
i don't mean to make you feel badly, but i do think you need to reframe the way you're thinking about this. your whole post comes across as "how could she do this to me?" instead of "how do i get her the money she's rightfully owned and should have been paid months ago?"
posted by nadawi at 5:50 AM on August 8, 2011 [37 favorites]
i understand you're frustrated and have a lot on your plate - but this woman has given you so much leeway. you've given her many promises to pay and then gave nothing, not even offering the $5/week or month or whatever to show her you have more than lipservice. she has threatened suing to show you she's serious. it worked. you're now treating it like a hard deadline.
the fact of the matter is that you paid other bills when they came due because those companies were serious. she's just gotten serious. i can't really blame her. in her line of work, i bet a lot of people take her services then have a story about how they can't pay. i'm sure the stories are all legitimate, but that doesn't help her at all. she has basically given you a 5-6 month interest free loan.
i don't mean to make you feel badly, but i do think you need to reframe the way you're thinking about this. your whole post comes across as "how could she do this to me?" instead of "how do i get her the money she's rightfully owned and should have been paid months ago?"
posted by nadawi at 5:50 AM on August 8, 2011 [37 favorites]
If she missed your child's birth, I think you have a case for not paying her anything else.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:01 AM on August 8, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:01 AM on August 8, 2011 [2 favorites]
OK, this question is a little confusing. Is she seriously threatening to sue you for $105? If that's the case, I think you can safely assume she didn't actually talk to a lawyer since she'd have probably been laughed out of the office.
As I understand it, you hired a woman to be a childbirth educator and a birth doula. You then paid her $320 for those services at which point you went into labor.... and she missed it? I seriously doubt that the check-ups or nanny references afterwards were worth $105.
IAAL but IANYL, and this is just my common sense telling me to tell you to call her bluff and report her to the doula agency or whatever for being a crappy birth instructor for missing the most important part of the job!
(PS. If she does sue you, be sure to tell the judge that she wasn't at the birth.)
posted by motsque at 6:04 AM on August 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
As I understand it, you hired a woman to be a childbirth educator and a birth doula. You then paid her $320 for those services at which point you went into labor.... and she missed it? I seriously doubt that the check-ups or nanny references afterwards were worth $105.
IAAL but IANYL, and this is just my common sense telling me to tell you to call her bluff and report her to the doula agency or whatever for being a crappy birth instructor for missing the most important part of the job!
(PS. If she does sue you, be sure to tell the judge that she wasn't at the birth.)
posted by motsque at 6:04 AM on August 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
i think the advice to try to get out of a debt you agreed to pay is scummy. you agreed with the amount right up until the time she was serious about getting it. the time to discuss the amount of payment was when she cut half of what you still owned her. she's not some multinational company where the customer is always right and they can afford to take hits of non-payment occasionally. you're talking about someone it sounds like you were at least at one time friends/friendly with. don't try to screw her over just because you made a commitment you couldn't keep.
posted by nadawi at 6:10 AM on August 8, 2011 [5 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 6:10 AM on August 8, 2011 [5 favorites]
I hate to pile-on, but grablife365, what if one of your photography clients said they couldn't afford to pay you after the fact? Sure, they might have a good reason--they might really be in a bind--but you're in a bind too! You need to be paid.
Whether or not you got the bang for your buck out of your doula, you've continually promised to pay her without making good on your promise. You could try to back out of the $105, or you can do the right thing and settle your debt. Surely there's something you can do to earn that money quickly--housework for others, craigslist some belongings, focus groups, taste tests.
posted by litnerd at 6:12 AM on August 8, 2011 [2 favorites]
Whether or not you got the bang for your buck out of your doula, you've continually promised to pay her without making good on your promise. You could try to back out of the $105, or you can do the right thing and settle your debt. Surely there's something you can do to earn that money quickly--housework for others, craigslist some belongings, focus groups, taste tests.
posted by litnerd at 6:12 AM on August 8, 2011 [2 favorites]
Make a payment plan and stick to it. Even just 5/week will get it done in 21 weeks. Very small businesses can't afford to write off debt. The drama and explanations are beside the point.
posted by theora55 at 6:43 AM on August 8, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by theora55 at 6:43 AM on August 8, 2011 [3 favorites]
There's probably something else that you can put off paying or get financial assistance to pay. Your electric bill comes to mind - if you're in Texas and you have A/C, surely that's over $100 what with the weather you've been having down there. Call them and make arrangements to pay late or pay less. See if there is assistance for unemployed (single?) mothers.
If you have a cell phone or cable TV, that should be gone by now. If you have credit card bills, call those companies and beg for mercy.
Like someone said upthread - it's not that you haven't had any money - it's that you've chosen to pay other people first. Sounds like someone else needs to take a backseat for a bit and it might as well be Large Impersonal Company (but don't let them come after you down the road).
posted by desjardins at 7:08 AM on August 8, 2011 [4 favorites]
If you have a cell phone or cable TV, that should be gone by now. If you have credit card bills, call those companies and beg for mercy.
Like someone said upthread - it's not that you haven't had any money - it's that you've chosen to pay other people first. Sounds like someone else needs to take a backseat for a bit and it might as well be Large Impersonal Company (but don't let them come after you down the road).
posted by desjardins at 7:08 AM on August 8, 2011 [4 favorites]
Yes, please respond and talk to her. It sounds like she may be frustrated and getting suspicious because this has been dragging on for so long and each time you have a different story to tell, legitimate as they all might be. Tell her you didn't realize you would be in this financial situation and cannot afford even your basic expenses, but you want to pay her somehow. Ask if there is some way you can resolve this -- can you provide some service for her? You mentioned you were going to make money by taking pictures of friends and family. Can you do this for her or her clients? Can you clean her house? Can you help her with administrative tasks? Can you do any of this in addition to paying her $5 a week? Maybe together you can come up with some solution that won't further drain your finances and will make her feel like you're at least trying to compensate her.
posted by chickenmagazine at 7:14 AM on August 8, 2011
posted by chickenmagazine at 7:14 AM on August 8, 2011
I couldn't get the money together quickly enough and got a letter on the 3rd of this month saying that she spoke to a lawyer and if I don't pay her by the 10th (Wednesday) that she is going to sue because I am refusing to pay and that I have a lot of excuses.
Here's my guess: she knows (or is related to) a lawyer. She said to that lawyer, "I'm having a hard time getting a client to pay because she keeps making excuses about not having the money, and now it's been several months: what should I do?" and the lawyer told her to write a letter threatening legal action.
I'm not saying she won't sue you in small claims court (she certainly can and may--practically speaking, it likely wouldn't be before the 10th) but I am suggesting that she isn't paying a lawyer hundreds per hour to advise her on collecting a $105 debt. So, I think you should respond. I think what might make sense in a conflict over a large amount of money (only communicate through lawyers, admit nothing) makes zero sense here. I think you need to be more communicative, not less. And I think an apology might be in order as well, even if it admits fault, because it could defuse some of her frustration about your past behavior--something like, "Shannon, you're right. I have been making excuses. I apologize. I have [$X] that I can pay you now. I am going to do [specific thing] to get the rest of the money and will pay you by [specific date]."
You have a mother and one sister who are currently not working. Could one of them (or one of your aunts, or your other sister, or someone else) watch the baby while you work at a temp assignment? Temp agencies in your area might be able to place you in a couple very short-term positions (like, one day of data entry, that kind of thing). Do you have any family members or friends who could loan you $20 each? Have you exhausted all possible leads in terms of opportunities off of Craigslist (taste tests were mentioned above, those can pay $75-100 for an afternoon of answering questions)? Can you get any help from your church or any organizations or clubs you're involved in? Do you know anyone (who knows anyone) who needs a babysitter?
In short, I think you should treat her like a person you know (rather than a large corporation whose legal team you're afraid of), but treat the debt like a utility bill or other expense you can't not pay. Doing so minimizes the chances she'll want or have to take you to small claims court.
posted by Meg_Murry at 8:08 AM on August 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
Here's my guess: she knows (or is related to) a lawyer. She said to that lawyer, "I'm having a hard time getting a client to pay because she keeps making excuses about not having the money, and now it's been several months: what should I do?" and the lawyer told her to write a letter threatening legal action.
I'm not saying she won't sue you in small claims court (she certainly can and may--practically speaking, it likely wouldn't be before the 10th) but I am suggesting that she isn't paying a lawyer hundreds per hour to advise her on collecting a $105 debt. So, I think you should respond. I think what might make sense in a conflict over a large amount of money (only communicate through lawyers, admit nothing) makes zero sense here. I think you need to be more communicative, not less. And I think an apology might be in order as well, even if it admits fault, because it could defuse some of her frustration about your past behavior--something like, "Shannon, you're right. I have been making excuses. I apologize. I have [$X] that I can pay you now. I am going to do [specific thing] to get the rest of the money and will pay you by [specific date]."
You have a mother and one sister who are currently not working. Could one of them (or one of your aunts, or your other sister, or someone else) watch the baby while you work at a temp assignment? Temp agencies in your area might be able to place you in a couple very short-term positions (like, one day of data entry, that kind of thing). Do you have any family members or friends who could loan you $20 each? Have you exhausted all possible leads in terms of opportunities off of Craigslist (taste tests were mentioned above, those can pay $75-100 for an afternoon of answering questions)? Can you get any help from your church or any organizations or clubs you're involved in? Do you know anyone (who knows anyone) who needs a babysitter?
In short, I think you should treat her like a person you know (rather than a large corporation whose legal team you're afraid of), but treat the debt like a utility bill or other expense you can't not pay. Doing so minimizes the chances she'll want or have to take you to small claims court.
posted by Meg_Murry at 8:08 AM on August 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
If you have no income, why don't you talk to her and see if you could maybe work off the debt? Cleaning her house a few times should do it, or some other service you could provide. It makes no sense for her to sue you, the fees will be way more than what you owe, and even though she would likely win, that's not going to magically mean you have the money to pay her, just that when you do get a job she may be able to garnish your wages, it's not going to get her paid any sooner.
posted by catatethebird at 8:26 AM on August 8, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by catatethebird at 8:26 AM on August 8, 2011 [2 favorites]
Do you have a written contract with her?
My contract with my doula included a clause that if she missed the birth (kinda the reason she was being hired), she'd send a back-up doula, and if the back-up wasn't available, the cost would be appropriately pro-rated.
This is pretty standard in doula contracts in my area, so if you have a contract, please read through it carefully and look for this.
As for the rest, I can't really help you, though you may find it useful to check out if there are any code of ethics for the agency she certified with and if any of those pertain to contracts.
posted by zizzle at 8:44 AM on August 8, 2011
My contract with my doula included a clause that if she missed the birth (kinda the reason she was being hired), she'd send a back-up doula, and if the back-up wasn't available, the cost would be appropriately pro-rated.
This is pretty standard in doula contracts in my area, so if you have a contract, please read through it carefully and look for this.
As for the rest, I can't really help you, though you may find it useful to check out if there are any code of ethics for the agency she certified with and if any of those pertain to contracts.
posted by zizzle at 8:44 AM on August 8, 2011
Response by poster: Hazyjane, I had been in contact with her daily that week and we were planning for an emergency induction on that Friday. I called her at 6am that Thursday and she agreed as did my midwife that I was in full labor. I kept her aware of what my midwife and the backup OB were saying. They all said I was in full labor. She agreed to meet me mid-morning, around 11am. When we met, she helped through a few contractions, was told by my midwife how far along I was and that I couldn't do a position that the doula wanted me to do to help with labor because I was so close to pushing that I would have the baby right there on the floor. We (well they) packed up the car to head to the hospital. She said she was going home to bring her son to a babysitter (nearly 40 minutes away), asked if I needed a backup doula which I said yes to and she was gone. I didn't get a backup and she didn't show up until after he was born. She knew I was in labor but chose to leave. I understood why and that a backup probably wouldn't have made it but not the timing for her to leave right then.
The original agreement was that she would be present when I asked her to be and she would stay a few hours after.
I am not planning to not pay her. Please don't misunderstand. That's never been the question and I don't believe that's even a good option here. I do think it should be known that she didn't provide the second, most expensive part of the agreement if we went to court I guess mainly to show why we modified the original agreement but I also do know that I said I would pay her and I intend to. My question has always been if I still have the time to come up with the money as I've been trying to do.
Like I said I do think that I can do 5-10 dollars a week. I'm planning to ask her if I can do that. If I can come up with the money in one sum that would be better but I like the idea of the smaller payments if that's possible.
posted by grablife365 at 8:59 AM on August 8, 2011
The original agreement was that she would be present when I asked her to be and she would stay a few hours after.
I am not planning to not pay her. Please don't misunderstand. That's never been the question and I don't believe that's even a good option here. I do think it should be known that she didn't provide the second, most expensive part of the agreement if we went to court I guess mainly to show why we modified the original agreement but I also do know that I said I would pay her and I intend to. My question has always been if I still have the time to come up with the money as I've been trying to do.
Like I said I do think that I can do 5-10 dollars a week. I'm planning to ask her if I can do that. If I can come up with the money in one sum that would be better but I like the idea of the smaller payments if that's possible.
posted by grablife365 at 8:59 AM on August 8, 2011
My doula missed my son's birth, and I got EVERY DIME back from her. My deposit back, and I didn't pay her the balance. This was the standard contract, even though I met with her several times during my pregnancy to go over my wishes, etc. She cheerfully delivered my deposit to me after my son's birth, where she cuddled him for a while and wished me well. I . . . am confused by your whole scenario. It's hard for me to muster up any sympathy for the doula here, because I'm sorry but she's coming off as a scam artist. SHE MISSED THE CHILD'S BIRTH.
posted by peep at 9:03 AM on August 8, 2011 [5 favorites]
posted by peep at 9:03 AM on August 8, 2011 [5 favorites]
Yeah, I'm not sure I understand why you would still owe her so much. You didn't get her support during your labor. Isn't that her major function? 425 bucks is an enormous amount of money to pay for nothing more than childbirth education. She only knocked off 105 for missing the birth? That's ridiculous.
posted by feathermeat at 9:13 AM on August 8, 2011 [5 favorites]
posted by feathermeat at 9:13 AM on August 8, 2011 [5 favorites]
Where the hell is the father in all this?? You are penniless with a newborn and no job - and not a single mention of the daddy anywhere? I have no idea what your personal situation is, but oh, this galls me.
Re the doula, I think the fact that she wasn't present at the birth is a bit of a moot point. Every doula contract is different, and you've several times mentioned that part of her job was pre-birth education, which you presumably received. She cut the balance in half since she wasn't present at the birth, and you accepted that. Please do your utmost to pay her back in small installments like the posters suggested upthread - as it sounds from your responses that you fully intend to do.
Good luck - this has got to be an extremely trying time for you. Enjoy your baby!
posted by widdershins at 9:48 AM on August 8, 2011 [3 favorites]
Re the doula, I think the fact that she wasn't present at the birth is a bit of a moot point. Every doula contract is different, and you've several times mentioned that part of her job was pre-birth education, which you presumably received. She cut the balance in half since she wasn't present at the birth, and you accepted that. Please do your utmost to pay her back in small installments like the posters suggested upthread - as it sounds from your responses that you fully intend to do.
Good luck - this has got to be an extremely trying time for you. Enjoy your baby!
posted by widdershins at 9:48 AM on August 8, 2011 [3 favorites]
I didn't get a backup and she didn't show up until after he was born.
Sounds to me like SHE is a scammer who owes YOU $400+.
posted by hazyjane at 9:55 AM on August 8, 2011 [2 favorites]
Sounds to me like SHE is a scammer who owes YOU $400+.
posted by hazyjane at 9:55 AM on August 8, 2011 [2 favorites]
foursentences, I wasn't sure if my responding would mess me up further. I didn't want to risk it cause I have no idea how being sued works and I didn't have any ideas on what to say to her. I'm planning a response now.
Again, talk to your aunt's lawyer or a free legal aid clinic in your area. "Respond" to the situation, as in "don't blow her off completely and hope this will just go away" -- not "try to write your responsive pleading by yourself".
posted by foursentences at 11:03 AM on August 8, 2011
Again, talk to your aunt's lawyer or a free legal aid clinic in your area. "Respond" to the situation, as in "don't blow her off completely and hope this will just go away" -- not "try to write your responsive pleading by yourself".
posted by foursentences at 11:03 AM on August 8, 2011
Here is a thread where professional doulas and new mothers are discussing what money if any is still owed if the doula misses the birth. I haven't read the whole thing but of those posts I have read, it seems most people believe that if a doula doesn't show up *no money* should be paid, although a few people think a *partial* payment is in order.
I'm sorry askme but I feel the hive really dropped the ball on this one - the pile-on that she must pay now immediately and no matter what was unjustified and wrong.
posted by hazyjane at 11:10 AM on August 8, 2011 [5 favorites]
I'm sorry askme but I feel the hive really dropped the ball on this one - the pile-on that she must pay now immediately and no matter what was unjustified and wrong.
posted by hazyjane at 11:10 AM on August 8, 2011 [5 favorites]
If she had talked to her lawyer she would have had her lawyer send send you the letter. Who knows if she even has a lawyer. She's decided you are unwilling to pay (there's little benefit in suing someone you are confident is unable to pay) and she's trying to shake you up. You're partly to blame for the situation because of telling her what she wanted to hear (I will give you the money on specific date) rather than the truth (I have no idea when I will be able to pay you).
If you agreed in writing to pay this amount you probably could be held to it in court.
You probably will not be sued over $105.
$105 is the cure for this situation and what you should be focusing on. It is a ridiculously small amount of money to be dealing with this issue over. If you were my friend the problem would already be solved. Do you have any friends?
It sounds like your problems are significantly bigger than this, frankly. I hope that you are not putting off investigating applications for public assistance.
posted by nanojath at 11:18 AM on August 8, 2011
If you agreed in writing to pay this amount you probably could be held to it in court.
You probably will not be sued over $105.
$105 is the cure for this situation and what you should be focusing on. It is a ridiculously small amount of money to be dealing with this issue over. If you were my friend the problem would already be solved. Do you have any friends?
It sounds like your problems are significantly bigger than this, frankly. I hope that you are not putting off investigating applications for public assistance.
posted by nanojath at 11:18 AM on August 8, 2011
You should sue her for the money you've already paid. She didn't deliver the agreed-to service. I don't understand why she should have received any payment from you.
posted by mr_roboto at 11:51 AM on August 8, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by mr_roboto at 11:51 AM on August 8, 2011 [2 favorites]
Another way to make money while you're at home with an infant is to figure out what baby clothes/gear/stuff is frequently sold for low prices at garage sales but will make much more on eBay.
Seriously, if you learn what sells and what doesn't (Target clothes don't sell, Baby Gap does) and start trolling garage sales, you could make some decent money.
Or if you're crafty, you can buy cheap onesies, sew on an applique and sell them on Etsy or to local baby shops.
posted by k8t at 12:08 PM on August 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
Seriously, if you learn what sells and what doesn't (Target clothes don't sell, Baby Gap does) and start trolling garage sales, you could make some decent money.
Or if you're crafty, you can buy cheap onesies, sew on an applique and sell them on Etsy or to local baby shops.
posted by k8t at 12:08 PM on August 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: hazyjane, thank you for the link.
I feel like my situation is one in which, if described there, she would probably be encouraged to just drop the remaining fee since she was paid for the childbirth class (130) and half the fee for the doula part. That she didn't complete the second part due to her own fault would be the main thing. She was my birth doula and didn't uphold that nor did she do as some of the women on the forum and offer a backup or postpartum care beyond two visits and some texts/phone calls. It's a big mess though and I just want to figure out the best way to resolve it.
I've spoken to the lawyer's assistant and am now waiting for follow up from him on what to do and when as far as my response to her letter and paying her back. I think the small weekly payments is good as far as paying it goes if he agrees that that's best.
Thank you k8t for the information on baby clothes. I'll start trying to do that as well.
I'm feeling a ton better about the situation and I'm hoping to have an action plan set up today or early tomorrow.
posted by grablife365 at 2:52 PM on August 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
I feel like my situation is one in which, if described there, she would probably be encouraged to just drop the remaining fee since she was paid for the childbirth class (130) and half the fee for the doula part. That she didn't complete the second part due to her own fault would be the main thing. She was my birth doula and didn't uphold that nor did she do as some of the women on the forum and offer a backup or postpartum care beyond two visits and some texts/phone calls. It's a big mess though and I just want to figure out the best way to resolve it.
I've spoken to the lawyer's assistant and am now waiting for follow up from him on what to do and when as far as my response to her letter and paying her back. I think the small weekly payments is good as far as paying it goes if he agrees that that's best.
Thank you k8t for the information on baby clothes. I'll start trying to do that as well.
I'm feeling a ton better about the situation and I'm hoping to have an action plan set up today or early tomorrow.
posted by grablife365 at 2:52 PM on August 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: oops. To correct the above - she offered a backup (didn't send it) but never offered additional PP care.
posted by grablife365 at 6:34 AM on August 9, 2011
posted by grablife365 at 6:34 AM on August 9, 2011
« Older SmashWords vs. Smashed Publishing Market | What is the International Phonetic Alphabet... Newer »
This thread is closed to new comments.
But you have not yet been sued. Keep that in mind, and don't panic.
posted by davejay at 11:51 PM on August 7, 2011 [2 favorites]