potayto potahto
July 27, 2011 9:46 AM Subscribe
What is the origin of the "oe" (from "ö") in names like "Schroeder", "Boehner" being pronounced like the "a" in "bay" or "day" in the US?
Just curious how this came about. That is all.
Just curious how this came about. That is all.
Well, back in the Great Continental Vowel Shift of ought-five...
posted by Jon_Evil at 9:54 AM on July 27, 2011
posted by Jon_Evil at 9:54 AM on July 27, 2011
wutangclan: "names like "Schroeder", "Boehner" being pronounced like the "a" in "bay" or "day" in the US?"
It's not. It's pronounced like the "o" in "bone" or "hope".
valkyryn: "with allowances for American dialect, that's how "ö" is pronounced in German"
Also not true. The closest American English sound would be the "e" in "herpes".
posted by dunkadunc at 10:03 AM on July 27, 2011 [3 favorites]
It's not. It's pronounced like the "o" in "bone" or "hope".
valkyryn: "with allowances for American dialect, that's how "ö" is pronounced in German"
Also not true. The closest American English sound would be the "e" in "herpes".
posted by dunkadunc at 10:03 AM on July 27, 2011 [3 favorites]
The ö is anyway a shorthand letter for oe. Originally the 'e' was written in small typeface above the 'o', and it eventually became a doodle or dots in modern usage, is all.
The allowances valkyryn mentions are quite liberal allowances, btw. Nobody in Germany pronounces ö like 'a' in 'day'.
posted by Namlit at 10:03 AM on July 27, 2011 [1 favorite]
The allowances valkyryn mentions are quite liberal allowances, btw. Nobody in Germany pronounces ö like 'a' in 'day'.
posted by Namlit at 10:03 AM on July 27, 2011 [1 favorite]
Are you saying you've heard someone pronounce "Schroeder" as "Schray-der"?
posted by cranberrymonger at 10:05 AM on July 27, 2011
posted by cranberrymonger at 10:05 AM on July 27, 2011
Are you saying you've heard someone pronounce "Schroeder" as "Schray-der"?
Yes. That's the most common pronounciation in Wisconsin.
posted by Floydd at 10:07 AM on July 27, 2011 [3 favorites]
Yes. That's the most common pronounciation in Wisconsin.
posted by Floydd at 10:07 AM on July 27, 2011 [3 favorites]
Nobody in Germany pronounces ö like 'a' in 'day'.
My understanding was that the regional dialects of German that were spoken among those who immigrated from Germany to the USA in the early-to-mid-1800s pronounced oe as "ay".
posted by deanc at 10:07 AM on July 27, 2011
My understanding was that the regional dialects of German that were spoken among those who immigrated from Germany to the USA in the early-to-mid-1800s pronounced oe as "ay".
posted by deanc at 10:07 AM on July 27, 2011
Cranberrymonger, as Floydd said, yes. I'm from Wisconsin, and one of my high school classmates was named Schroeder. Everyone pronounced it "Schray-der."
posted by John Cohen at 10:10 AM on July 27, 2011
posted by John Cohen at 10:10 AM on July 27, 2011
Isn't Schroeder from Peanuts (Charlie Brown et al) a /Shray-der/?
It's pronounced like the "o" in "bone" or "hope".
If it's about Rep Boehner, then the pronunciation I usually hear is /ˈbeɪnɚ/ or /bay-nər/ (fancy IPA formatting via wikipedia), in the absence of insulting-via-"Boner"-pronunciation.
posted by Signed Sealed Delivered at 10:13 AM on July 27, 2011
It's pronounced like the "o" in "bone" or "hope".
If it's about Rep Boehner, then the pronunciation I usually hear is /ˈbeɪnɚ/ or /bay-nər/ (fancy IPA formatting via wikipedia), in the absence of insulting-via-"Boner"-pronunciation.
posted by Signed Sealed Delivered at 10:13 AM on July 27, 2011
It's not. It's pronounced like the "o" in "bone" or "hope".
Um, the Speaker of the House might take issue with that assessment.
posted by Sys Rq at 10:13 AM on July 27, 2011 [1 favorite]
Um, the Speaker of the House might take issue with that assessment.
posted by Sys Rq at 10:13 AM on July 27, 2011 [1 favorite]
This is only ~related but in programming this stuff is called transliteration. It's actually pretty important whenever you code systems that have to support Internationalization and localization, e.g. web content management systems like Drupal or Wordpress.
Speaking of transliteration, back in the old days when baby web was taking its first steps, Swedish sites decided to sacrifice the åäö characters in the name of global interoperability. Obviously they still had to represent these characters somehow so they decided on å=ao, ä=ae, ö=oe. This turned out to be problematic because you end up with longer strings that are more difficult to read. It took a couple of years before developers simply decided on dropping all dots and use the much more sane å=a, ä=a, ö=o scheme. How long before Swedish sites decide to start using åäö remains to be seen.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 10:13 AM on July 27, 2011
Speaking of transliteration, back in the old days when baby web was taking its first steps, Swedish sites decided to sacrifice the åäö characters in the name of global interoperability. Obviously they still had to represent these characters somehow so they decided on å=ao, ä=ae, ö=oe. This turned out to be problematic because you end up with longer strings that are more difficult to read. It took a couple of years before developers simply decided on dropping all dots and use the much more sane å=a, ä=a, ö=o scheme. How long before Swedish sites decide to start using åäö remains to be seen.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 10:13 AM on July 27, 2011
"Ö" is not pronounced like "day" in Germany, but since the German "ö" doesn't really have an equivalent in American English, it mutated into "ay" under some circumstances.
I think the "ay" sound only comes into effect for German-American last names. I've certainly never heard any Americans pronounce "Königsberg" as "Kay-nigsberg" or "Schrödinger" as "Schray-dinger."
posted by Sticherbeast at 10:25 AM on July 27, 2011
I think the "ay" sound only comes into effect for German-American last names. I've certainly never heard any Americans pronounce "Königsberg" as "Kay-nigsberg" or "Schrödinger" as "Schray-dinger."
posted by Sticherbeast at 10:25 AM on July 27, 2011
I've certainly never heard any Americans pronounce "Königsberg" as "Kay-nigsberg"
I've heard Koenig pronounced as "Kay-nig" plenty of times (though mostly in the midwest).
posted by scody at 10:28 AM on July 27, 2011 [3 favorites]
I've heard Koenig pronounced as "Kay-nig" plenty of times (though mostly in the midwest).
posted by scody at 10:28 AM on July 27, 2011 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: So I guess it's not universal in the US, but to be clear, my question is this:
ö/oe in German is similar to how you pronounce the "eu" in "beurre" (french for "butter"). The closest sounds in American English would either be "uh or "oh", so I'd expect people to say Schr-oh-der, and B-oh-ner. It strikes me as odd that, instead, many Americans say it like Schr-ay-der and B-ay-ner.
Again, how did this come about? I'm looking for the etymology -- sorta like what deanc has suggested.
posted by wutangclan at 10:34 AM on July 27, 2011
ö/oe in German is similar to how you pronounce the "eu" in "beurre" (french for "butter"). The closest sounds in American English would either be "uh or "oh", so I'd expect people to say Schr-oh-der, and B-oh-ner. It strikes me as odd that, instead, many Americans say it like Schr-ay-der and B-ay-ner.
Again, how did this come about? I'm looking for the etymology -- sorta like what deanc has suggested.
posted by wutangclan at 10:34 AM on July 27, 2011
Going to high school in Ohio, I had a teacher who pronounced Schrödinger as "Schray-dinger."
posted by Awkward Philip at 10:36 AM on July 27, 2011
posted by Awkward Philip at 10:36 AM on July 27, 2011
Signed Sealed Delivered: Isn't Schroeder from Peanuts (Charlie Brown et al) a /Shray-der/?
My recollection of the cartoons on TV is shro-der with a long "o" sound, rhyming with floater. My grandmother's maiden name was Schroeder and family has always pronounced it shro-der. They're from Alabama.
In Texas, the town of Boerne is "burny", the "oe" pronounced like the "u" in burn with a long "e" at the end.
posted by Anephim at 10:37 AM on July 27, 2011
My recollection of the cartoons on TV is shro-der with a long "o" sound, rhyming with floater. My grandmother's maiden name was Schroeder and family has always pronounced it shro-der. They're from Alabama.
In Texas, the town of Boerne is "burny", the "oe" pronounced like the "u" in burn with a long "e" at the end.
posted by Anephim at 10:37 AM on July 27, 2011
I've certainly never heard any Americans pronounce "Königsberg" as "Kay-nigsberg" or "Schrödinger" as "Schray-dinger."
I took a class on basic quantum mechanics from a professor who taught us about the Schray-dinger equation. I winced whenever he said it.
posted by ubersturm at 10:39 AM on July 27, 2011
I took a class on basic quantum mechanics from a professor who taught us about the Schray-dinger equation. I winced whenever he said it.
posted by ubersturm at 10:39 AM on July 27, 2011
I've heard Koenig pronounced as "Kay-nig" plenty of times (though mostly in the midwest).
I know a Kay-nig, but she's a German-American and not a city in Prussia. Yet.
posted by Sticherbeast at 10:41 AM on July 27, 2011 [3 favorites]
I know a Kay-nig, but she's a German-American and not a city in Prussia. Yet.
posted by Sticherbeast at 10:41 AM on July 27, 2011 [3 favorites]
German, like American English, has its own regional dialects. The -ay pronunciation may well come from a particular region.
posted by megatherium at 10:41 AM on July 27, 2011
posted by megatherium at 10:41 AM on July 27, 2011
Response by poster: German, like American English, has its own regional dialects. The -ay pronunciation may well come from a particular region.
Perhaps. But it sounds like speculation. Is this actually true?
posted by wutangclan at 10:42 AM on July 27, 2011
Perhaps. But it sounds like speculation. Is this actually true?
posted by wutangclan at 10:42 AM on July 27, 2011
Schroeder from Peanuts was definitely Schroh-der.
I'm not sure if I'm surprised or not that Schrödinger gets ay-ed sometimes.
German, like American English, has its own regional dialects. The -ay pronunciation may well come from a particular region.
I would guess it's an interaction of both. German immigrants from a particular region settle in America and their version of "ö" gets turned into "ay" with the English-speaking children and their non-German-American neighbors.
posted by Sticherbeast at 10:43 AM on July 27, 2011
I'm not sure if I'm surprised or not that Schrödinger gets ay-ed sometimes.
German, like American English, has its own regional dialects. The -ay pronunciation may well come from a particular region.
I would guess it's an interaction of both. German immigrants from a particular region settle in America and their version of "ö" gets turned into "ay" with the English-speaking children and their non-German-American neighbors.
posted by Sticherbeast at 10:43 AM on July 27, 2011
Our German teacher taught us to make the "ö" sound by making an "ee" sound while holding our mouths in the shape of "oh" (which always made the oe transliteration make sense to me, sort of), which is kind of halfway between oh and ay. Maybe with some magic silent "r" at the end.
Anyway, it's kind of the best English can do. The sound doesn't exist in English, and if you know it's not supposed to be plain old "o" because there's dots on top or an e after, I can see how "ay" might end up being the customary pronunciation. Plus regional dialects, like other folks have said.
I'm certainly one of those people who pronounces Schrödinger and Möbius with the German vowel sound, but I admit it's kinda weird.
posted by little cow make small moo at 10:45 AM on July 27, 2011 [2 favorites]
Anyway, it's kind of the best English can do. The sound doesn't exist in English, and if you know it's not supposed to be plain old "o" because there's dots on top or an e after, I can see how "ay" might end up being the customary pronunciation. Plus regional dialects, like other folks have said.
I'm certainly one of those people who pronounces Schrödinger and Möbius with the German vowel sound, but I admit it's kinda weird.
posted by little cow make small moo at 10:45 AM on July 27, 2011 [2 favorites]
Foci for Analysis:
I don't recognize that. There are no åäö in the URLs of Swedish site, but I haven't seen a webpage that doesn't use them since the time when it was cool to also use capitals randomly in flowing text.
To get a Swedish "ö", which is very much like the German one, start by saying "o" as in "cool", then move slowly to saying "e" as in "extra". The "ö" is in the middle of those positions.
For Swedish prononciation of a, e and o, you can do the same midpoint trick to get all three of them (ae - ä, oe -> ö, ao -> å), and all Swedish vowels are available as audio samples here.
posted by springload at 10:47 AM on July 27, 2011 [1 favorite]
I don't recognize that. There are no åäö in the URLs of Swedish site, but I haven't seen a webpage that doesn't use them since the time when it was cool to also use capitals randomly in flowing text.
To get a Swedish "ö", which is very much like the German one, start by saying "o" as in "cool", then move slowly to saying "e" as in "extra". The "ö" is in the middle of those positions.
For Swedish prononciation of a, e and o, you can do the same midpoint trick to get all three of them (ae - ä, oe -> ö, ao -> å), and all Swedish vowels are available as audio samples here.
posted by springload at 10:47 AM on July 27, 2011 [1 favorite]
It could be a southern dialect, like Schwäbisch which I seem to remember got pretty crazy on the umlauts. Someone better versed in linguistics could probably make some sense about the monothong stuff in the Wikipedia article.
A lot of the Midwestern German population are Volga German, so it could conceivably be a Russian influence too.
posted by drwelby at 10:49 AM on July 27, 2011
A lot of the Midwestern German population are Volga German, so it could conceivably be a Russian influence too.
posted by drwelby at 10:49 AM on July 27, 2011
One of the main North-South roads in the Detroit area is Schoenherr, universally pronounced by locals (such as your humble servant) as "Shay-ner."
posted by dhens at 10:53 AM on July 27, 2011
posted by dhens at 10:53 AM on July 27, 2011
I recently started a job and have met many folks from Wisconsin and they all pronounce the oe as "ay" whereas I would naturally pronounce it "oh."
posted by JXBeach at 10:57 AM on July 27, 2011
posted by JXBeach at 10:57 AM on July 27, 2011
Yeah, the street in Austin is pronounced "Kay-nig", which was difficult for me to get used to when I moved here. (We also pronounce our old airport, Mueller, as "Miller", because that's how the family it was named after says their name).
posted by katemonster at 10:57 AM on July 27, 2011
posted by katemonster at 10:57 AM on July 27, 2011
The mutability of vowels goes way beyond the broad shifts described in basic historical linguistics: they get bashed and dinged about regionally and sub-regionally (e.g. the blurbodoocery), and anything that doesn't fit neatly into an existing phonetic box will eventually get put in one.
I think it's problematic to try and map across from modern standard German, which is, like modern standard Italian, something of an artificial language underpinned by the goal of national unity, with its own distinct history over the past 150 years. The Midwest was settled by a wide variety of High and Low German speakers whose regional dialects retained heterogeneity through several generations. (A sampler from Wisconsin.)
So if you're looking for a straightforward phonetic path, you're not likely to get one: those kinds of linguistic collisions are more like Brownian motion.
posted by holgate at 10:58 AM on July 27, 2011 [4 favorites]
I think it's problematic to try and map across from modern standard German, which is, like modern standard Italian, something of an artificial language underpinned by the goal of national unity, with its own distinct history over the past 150 years. The Midwest was settled by a wide variety of High and Low German speakers whose regional dialects retained heterogeneity through several generations. (A sampler from Wisconsin.)
So if you're looking for a straightforward phonetic path, you're not likely to get one: those kinds of linguistic collisions are more like Brownian motion.
posted by holgate at 10:58 AM on July 27, 2011 [4 favorites]
Growing up on Long Island, NY in the 60s and 70s we called the local German bar/restaurant Koenigs "Kay-nigs".
posted by tommasz at 10:59 AM on July 27, 2011
posted by tommasz at 10:59 AM on July 27, 2011
Response by poster: holgate, I'm not looking for a simple, linear explanation. In fact, a complicated one would be very interesting to me. But I am definitely looking for an informed, rather than speculative explanation. Perhaps this is the wrong forum.
posted by wutangclan at 11:08 AM on July 27, 2011
posted by wutangclan at 11:08 AM on July 27, 2011
The people I know who pronounce "oe" as "ay" are Mennonite, and speak (or have ancestors who spoke) Low German / Plattdeutsch. This is in Western Canada.
posted by teg at 11:30 AM on July 27, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by teg at 11:30 AM on July 27, 2011 [1 favorite]
I highly suspect that it reflects a regional German dialect. The vowels really change by region. For example, High German "kein" (kine) is pronounced in Berlin like the word "cane" in English. The regional dialect of Bavarian is "Bayerisch" which in High German sounds like "buyer-ish", but in Bayerisch itself sounds like "Borsch".
So, I can't say which dialect would pronounce "ö" as "ay", but I find it pretty likely that they do that somewhere, and if I had to guess, I would say up towards the Dutch border, but I'm pulling that out of my ass.
posted by molecicco at 11:31 AM on July 27, 2011
So, I can't say which dialect would pronounce "ö" as "ay", but I find it pretty likely that they do that somewhere, and if I had to guess, I would say up towards the Dutch border, but I'm pulling that out of my ass.
posted by molecicco at 11:31 AM on July 27, 2011
This suggests that most Schröders come from that region... try youtube for Niedersachsen accents, if you like.
posted by molecicco at 11:35 AM on July 27, 2011
posted by molecicco at 11:35 AM on July 27, 2011
Um, the Speaker of the House might take issue with that assessment.
Of course he would -- nevertheless, as indicated above, the correct pronunciation of his family name is a lot closer to "boner" than is usually heard.
posted by Rash at 11:58 AM on July 27, 2011
Of course he would -- nevertheless, as indicated above, the correct pronunciation of his family name is a lot closer to "boner" than is usually heard.
posted by Rash at 11:58 AM on July 27, 2011
holgate, I'm not looking for a simple, linear explanation.
Well, how about this? It's mostly perception and familiarity: Americans, generally not having familiarity with the "true" German pronunciation (OK, of which there are multiple), shift the pronunciation toward sounds that are familiar. For some people, the "ö/oe" sound was perceived as closest to "ay" [ei] and that's where it landed. (The possible homophones for names like "Boehner" probably spurred some people to emphasize their non-"boner"-ness, but those are edge cases.) Others went with "er" (as in Boerne = "burny") and still others went with "oh" [ou] (as in Schoeder = "shroh-der" in some places, even though it became "shray-der" in others).
It's drift, which is random. Maybe there's an element of "our community says it like this," which pops up in odd ways, but that's much more non-linear than I could hope to tackle.
posted by psoas at 12:12 PM on July 27, 2011
Well, how about this? It's mostly perception and familiarity: Americans, generally not having familiarity with the "true" German pronunciation (OK, of which there are multiple), shift the pronunciation toward sounds that are familiar. For some people, the "ö/oe" sound was perceived as closest to "ay" [ei] and that's where it landed. (The possible homophones for names like "Boehner" probably spurred some people to emphasize their non-"boner"-ness, but those are edge cases.) Others went with "er" (as in Boerne = "burny") and still others went with "oh" [ou] (as in Schoeder = "shroh-der" in some places, even though it became "shray-der" in others).
It's drift, which is random. Maybe there's an element of "our community says it like this," which pops up in odd ways, but that's much more non-linear than I could hope to tackle.
posted by psoas at 12:12 PM on July 27, 2011
The people I know who pronounce "oe" as "ay" are Mennonite, and speak (or have ancestors who spoke) Low German / Plattdeutsch. This is in Western Canada.
That is consistent with Wikipedia, such that the Plautdietsch pronunciation of "schön" is pronounced something like "sheen" and /œ/ is pronounced as "e" or "a" in what they call "vowel unrounding."
The book "Cryptonomicon" has a scene that references this where the main character encounters an American with the name "Shoen" pronounced "Shayne" and then goes to England where someone with the name surname goes by "Sherrn."
posted by deanc at 12:15 PM on July 27, 2011
That is consistent with Wikipedia, such that the Plautdietsch pronunciation of "schön" is pronounced something like "sheen" and /œ/ is pronounced as "e" or "a" in what they call "vowel unrounding."
The book "Cryptonomicon" has a scene that references this where the main character encounters an American with the name "Shoen" pronounced "Shayne" and then goes to England where someone with the name surname goes by "Sherrn."
posted by deanc at 12:15 PM on July 27, 2011
Best answer: ö/oe in German is similar to how you pronounce the "eu" in "beurre" (french for "butter")
That. Go back to Clouseau, and learn from him. Even the Peupe was on his funeral...the only difference is that the letter is normally pronounced straight, without a change of color (no diphthong, in other words).
Note also that there is a short ö, as in "wörter" (words) and a long one as in "Blödmann" (moron), or Köthen (a place in Saxony where J.S.Bach worked for a while).
As to German dialects: too much conjecture fluttering about here. First, those immigrants came in batches and from very different areas, so that could be literally all over the map, whereas the local influence, that is, English spoken everywhere, might have had a stronger influence on how the pronunciation of German words changed over time.
Second, in various dialects, the ö is indeed changed from (roughly) "eu" into various forms of "eh". The phenomenon is called "Entrundung" or "Entlabialisierung" (link in German). Note that the Palatinate dialect (important for at least some of the German immigrants) as well as Saxonian, uses the "eh" pronunciation.
The ticket dude at Leipzig Central sold me a ticket to "Kehdn" when I asked for one to Köthen. In middle-of-the-road German this is simply not the case.
"Ay" only seems to be close to "eh", but there is a diphthongy-twist to it that is absent in the original (dialect) version.
posted by Namlit at 12:34 PM on July 27, 2011 [1 favorite]
That. Go back to Clouseau, and learn from him. Even the Peupe was on his funeral...the only difference is that the letter is normally pronounced straight, without a change of color (no diphthong, in other words).
Note also that there is a short ö, as in "wörter" (words) and a long one as in "Blödmann" (moron), or Köthen (a place in Saxony where J.S.Bach worked for a while).
As to German dialects: too much conjecture fluttering about here. First, those immigrants came in batches and from very different areas, so that could be literally all over the map, whereas the local influence, that is, English spoken everywhere, might have had a stronger influence on how the pronunciation of German words changed over time.
Second, in various dialects, the ö is indeed changed from (roughly) "eu" into various forms of "eh". The phenomenon is called "Entrundung" or "Entlabialisierung" (link in German). Note that the Palatinate dialect (important for at least some of the German immigrants) as well as Saxonian, uses the "eh" pronunciation.
The ticket dude at Leipzig Central sold me a ticket to "Kehdn" when I asked for one to Köthen. In middle-of-the-road German this is simply not the case.
"Ay" only seems to be close to "eh", but there is a diphthongy-twist to it that is absent in the original (dialect) version.
posted by Namlit at 12:34 PM on July 27, 2011 [1 favorite]
Pronounce Schröder with an Irish accent and you can get something like Schrayder, to my English ears. Irish are the second largest ancestry group on Wisconsin, after German. Maybe the Irish influence established the pronunciation, as the Irish accent has plainly shaped a range of American accents.
posted by londongeezer at 12:39 PM on July 27, 2011
posted by londongeezer at 12:39 PM on July 27, 2011
There are multiple forms of drift: you can measure perceptual assimilation [pdf] between modern North German and American English speakers, but perceptual assimilation can't be extended very far back in time, because once you get beyond experimental analysis, you rely upon deductions from transcriptions, census forms, and other documentation that might offer a very rough sense of how person A's name sounds to person B, based on how person B writes it down. You also have a chain shift that covers the Great Lakes and isn't tied directly to cross-language assimilation, but bumps into it thanks to the dialectal melting pot of the upper Midwest during the 19th century.
As Namlit suggests, the sources and influences are all over the map, but eventually you end up with a degree of equilibrium -- a set of working rules for what you might call 'Midwestern German-American' thanks to cultural assimilation.
posted by holgate at 12:45 PM on July 27, 2011
As Namlit suggests, the sources and influences are all over the map, but eventually you end up with a degree of equilibrium -- a set of working rules for what you might call 'Midwestern German-American' thanks to cultural assimilation.
posted by holgate at 12:45 PM on July 27, 2011
I know a Kay-nig, but she's a German-American and not a city in Prussia. Yet.
Irredentist!
posted by atrazine at 1:33 PM on July 27, 2011
Irredentist!
posted by atrazine at 1:33 PM on July 27, 2011
"Bei mir bistu shein" ("To me you are beautiful") was a Yiddish song popularized by the Andrew Sisters under the Germanized title of "Bei mir bist Du schön".
So maybe it's a Yiddishism.
posted by monospace at 1:36 PM on July 27, 2011
So maybe it's a Yiddishism.
posted by monospace at 1:36 PM on July 27, 2011
Yeah, the street in Austin is pronounced "Kay-nig", which was difficult for me to get used to when I moved here. (We also pronounce our old airport, Mueller, as "Miller", because that's how the family it was named after says their name).
This is rather tangential, but the baseball player Bill Mueller's surname is also pronounced Miller. I recall reading (in some esoteric Cubs publication--probably Vineline) that his grandfather changed the pronunciation avoid discrimination against Germans in the aftermath of the First World War. I sincerely doubt that's what's going on with the ö as ay phenomenon, though.
I don't know that you're going to get a better explanation than a dialect (presumably lacking the phoneme ø) mixing with English. I'd discount the Yiddish theory--I don't think the patterns of immigration work. (People are also seeming to identify this as a Midwestern phenomenon (though with one mention of Long Island), which would be a blow against the Yiddish theory, as you're not getting this pronunciation in places with relatively large numbers of Yiddish speakers.)
posted by hoyland at 1:49 PM on July 27, 2011
This is rather tangential, but the baseball player Bill Mueller's surname is also pronounced Miller. I recall reading (in some esoteric Cubs publication--probably Vineline) that his grandfather changed the pronunciation avoid discrimination against Germans in the aftermath of the First World War. I sincerely doubt that's what's going on with the ö as ay phenomenon, though.
I don't know that you're going to get a better explanation than a dialect (presumably lacking the phoneme ø) mixing with English. I'd discount the Yiddish theory--I don't think the patterns of immigration work. (People are also seeming to identify this as a Midwestern phenomenon (though with one mention of Long Island), which would be a blow against the Yiddish theory, as you're not getting this pronunciation in places with relatively large numbers of Yiddish speakers.)
posted by hoyland at 1:49 PM on July 27, 2011
Of course he would -- nevertheless, as indicated above, the correct pronunciation of his family name is a lot closer to "boner" than is usually heard.
The correct pronounciation of his name is whatever he says it is, thank you.
Reminds me of the time I met a girl who said her name was "muh-nik", who came from a Francophone community in Alberta. Me: that's an interesting name! How do you spell it? Her: M-o-n-i-q-u-e. Me: Oh, you mean "moe-neeeeek"!? Her: No, I mean muh-nik. My name is muh-nik.
Back on topic, I doubt it is a Yiddishism, but I find a mixture of Irish accents with specific German dialects pretty plausible.
posted by molecicco at 1:49 PM on July 27, 2011
The correct pronounciation of his name is whatever he says it is, thank you.
Reminds me of the time I met a girl who said her name was "muh-nik", who came from a Francophone community in Alberta. Me: that's an interesting name! How do you spell it? Her: M-o-n-i-q-u-e. Me: Oh, you mean "moe-neeeeek"!? Her: No, I mean muh-nik. My name is muh-nik.
Back on topic, I doubt it is a Yiddishism, but I find a mixture of Irish accents with specific German dialects pretty plausible.
posted by molecicco at 1:49 PM on July 27, 2011
I'm from Wisconsin, and I had a dentist (not an irredentist) named SchrAYder and a teacher named SchrOHder -- or the other way around.
I'm technically German-American myself, at least paternally, but any accent was lost generations ago in the wilds of Iowa.
Then of course there's Goethe Street in Chicago, which generally was pronounced "GO-thee" or "go-EE-thee" until recently.
posted by dhartung at 4:42 PM on July 27, 2011
I'm technically German-American myself, at least paternally, but any accent was lost generations ago in the wilds of Iowa.
Then of course there's Goethe Street in Chicago, which generally was pronounced "GO-thee" or "go-EE-thee" until recently.
posted by dhartung at 4:42 PM on July 27, 2011
I hate to add to the speculation and fluttering, but having grown up in different parts of the United States, with different regional accents and different ancestries of regional heritage:
The upper midwest and pittsburgh (germanic peasant colonial) IN MY EXPERIENCE tends to pronounce the english "oo" or german "ü" or "ö" seems to be pronounced as a "u" sound* as opposed to the "oo" sound that might otherwise be called for. This simply adds to the confusion of the pronunciation in these areas.
In my opinion, the answer is that -- you're in the US. Do in the US as those who watch Fox News do. There is no precise pronunciation; there is the pronunciation that the people you are speaking to will understand.
* - This was literally taught by my 2nd grade teacher in a suburb of Pittsburgh as "oo" = pronunciation "u" -- as in "roof" should be pronounced "ruff" like a dog goes "ruff".
posted by SpecialK at 9:19 PM on July 27, 2011
The upper midwest and pittsburgh (germanic peasant colonial) IN MY EXPERIENCE tends to pronounce the english "oo" or german "ü" or "ö" seems to be pronounced as a "u" sound* as opposed to the "oo" sound that might otherwise be called for. This simply adds to the confusion of the pronunciation in these areas.
In my opinion, the answer is that -- you're in the US. Do in the US as those who watch Fox News do. There is no precise pronunciation; there is the pronunciation that the people you are speaking to will understand.
* - This was literally taught by my 2nd grade teacher in a suburb of Pittsburgh as "oo" = pronunciation "u" -- as in "roof" should be pronounced "ruff" like a dog goes "ruff".
posted by SpecialK at 9:19 PM on July 27, 2011
The closest sounds in American English would either be "uh or "oh"
I'm not so sure about that.
I have a couple of German self-taught type books right here - in German: How to Speak and Write It, I find:
posted by kristi at 9:57 AM on July 28, 2011
I'm not so sure about that.
I have a couple of German self-taught type books right here - in German: How to Speak and Write It, I find:
"The German ö. This is similar to ay, said with rounded lips. If you say ale with rounded lips you will get the right pronunciation of the German word Öl, which means oil. In our guide to pronunciation we represent this vowel sound by ay." (Note: In the text, the ay has a sort of rounded slur symbol both above and below; I don't think I can reproduce that here.)In German Made Simple, I find:
"Long ö. No equivalent sound in English. To make long ö, hold the lips firmly in the positioin for long ö (oh) and try to say (ay). The result will be long ö."I think some (not all) texts and courses teach that the sound is related to ay, and probably many Americans hear it that way. But it varies, so you also get texts and courses teaching that it's more like the "uh" in "fur" (as I found in Living Language Ultimate German) and Americans who hear it that way.
posted by kristi at 9:57 AM on July 28, 2011
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posted by valkyryn at 9:52 AM on July 27, 2011