Get me off this rock.
May 9, 2011 9:55 PM Subscribe
Red River Valley, living there?
Since I was a child, I have always wanted to live in North Dakota. I am not crazy. I grew up in NYC and NY state, lived in Greenwich Village for a few years, and have lived on Maui for 20 years. I really want to get off of Maui. I am not looking for a cultural center. Just a cheap place to live with actual SEASONS. I want to move back to the mainland. I don't mind harsh winters, I actually like them.
I plan on retiring in 10 years. I will be 64. My retirement income (in today's dollars) will be about $45-50,000. I am thinking of Grand Forks.
My plan is to retire and enroll in graduate program in the humanities. I have no specific need for a graduate degree (i already have two). I just like going to school.
Anyone have any suggestions or ideas? Anyone ever live in Grand Forks or go to the University of North Dakota?
Since I was a child, I have always wanted to live in North Dakota. I am not crazy. I grew up in NYC and NY state, lived in Greenwich Village for a few years, and have lived on Maui for 20 years. I really want to get off of Maui. I am not looking for a cultural center. Just a cheap place to live with actual SEASONS. I want to move back to the mainland. I don't mind harsh winters, I actually like them.
I plan on retiring in 10 years. I will be 64. My retirement income (in today's dollars) will be about $45-50,000. I am thinking of Grand Forks.
My plan is to retire and enroll in graduate program in the humanities. I have no specific need for a graduate degree (i already have two). I just like going to school.
Anyone have any suggestions or ideas? Anyone ever live in Grand Forks or go to the University of North Dakota?
Best answer: Fargoan here, so I can't speak much for Grand Forks, but:
1. Winters here are harsh, but if you like them, good for you, just be prepared so that you don't have to go out any more than you have to. If you're comparing to what New Yorkers call a 'harsh winter', you're going to be in for a shock. My wife is from Milwaukee, and the harshness of the winters is almost beyond her tolerance. Several consecutive days of sub-zero weather is something that you don't experience in other parts of the US. There's no body of water nearby to balance out the climate like in Seattle or Nova Scotia, which are about as far north as us. Our cold is acrid and immovable.
2. I'd say $45,000-$50,000 will do well for you. In Fargo, I rent a three-bedroom house with garage and yard, pay all my own utilities, for $820 a month. Be aware that those harsh winters may mean $400/mo heating bills in the winter if you get a house. If you're far enough along in life that you don't have a lot of expenses, housing, food, and car should fit nicely into your budget.
3. You will need a car. I believe that there are parts of Grand Forks where you can live and walk to the grocery store, but much more than that and you'll need to drive. They have public transportation, but it's not as thorough as in larger cities.
4. Actually, Grand Forks is probably your best ND choice for a cultural center; Fargo and Bismarck do have culture, but it seems like Grand Forks has more interesting things than Fargo. Plus, Winnipeg Canada is an easy drive, and they have a lot of culture up there, too. Minneapolis is probably a 5-hour drive from GF, which is doable if there's something special to do.
5. Echoing on Weathergal's 'social circle' thing: there's a quiet, stoic-ness to the Swedish, German, and Norwegian immigrants who settled this area that may seem offputting or hostile to somebody from a more easygoing and social region. Don't let it get you down, it's just the way it is up here sometimes. The fact that a third of the year is spent in a heavy coat running from car to doorway also interferes with social interaction.
6. As I understand, UND is the better place in ND for a Humanities program; NDSU is more engineering and agricultural in focus, and that's about all your ND choices for postgrad programs.
posted by AzraelBrown at 5:22 AM on May 10, 2011
1. Winters here are harsh, but if you like them, good for you, just be prepared so that you don't have to go out any more than you have to. If you're comparing to what New Yorkers call a 'harsh winter', you're going to be in for a shock. My wife is from Milwaukee, and the harshness of the winters is almost beyond her tolerance. Several consecutive days of sub-zero weather is something that you don't experience in other parts of the US. There's no body of water nearby to balance out the climate like in Seattle or Nova Scotia, which are about as far north as us. Our cold is acrid and immovable.
2. I'd say $45,000-$50,000 will do well for you. In Fargo, I rent a three-bedroom house with garage and yard, pay all my own utilities, for $820 a month. Be aware that those harsh winters may mean $400/mo heating bills in the winter if you get a house. If you're far enough along in life that you don't have a lot of expenses, housing, food, and car should fit nicely into your budget.
3. You will need a car. I believe that there are parts of Grand Forks where you can live and walk to the grocery store, but much more than that and you'll need to drive. They have public transportation, but it's not as thorough as in larger cities.
4. Actually, Grand Forks is probably your best ND choice for a cultural center; Fargo and Bismarck do have culture, but it seems like Grand Forks has more interesting things than Fargo. Plus, Winnipeg Canada is an easy drive, and they have a lot of culture up there, too. Minneapolis is probably a 5-hour drive from GF, which is doable if there's something special to do.
5. Echoing on Weathergal's 'social circle' thing: there's a quiet, stoic-ness to the Swedish, German, and Norwegian immigrants who settled this area that may seem offputting or hostile to somebody from a more easygoing and social region. Don't let it get you down, it's just the way it is up here sometimes. The fact that a third of the year is spent in a heavy coat running from car to doorway also interferes with social interaction.
6. As I understand, UND is the better place in ND for a Humanities program; NDSU is more engineering and agricultural in focus, and that's about all your ND choices for postgrad programs.
posted by AzraelBrown at 5:22 AM on May 10, 2011
4. Actually, Grand Forks is probably your best ND choice for a cultural center; Fargo and Bismarck do have culture, but it seems like Grand Forks has more interesting things than Fargo. Plus, Winnipeg Canada is an easy drive, and they have a lot of culture up there, too. Minneapolis is probably a 5-hour drive from GF, which is doable if there's something special to do.
Perhaps this is the grass is always greener effect? Growing up in Bismarck, my impression was always that Fargo had the most interesting cultural things to do in the state. The few people I knew who went to school in Grand Forks confirmed this belief, they quickly transferred to NDSU or U of MN, citing Grand Forks as being even colder and less interesting than Fargo.
I would recommend Bismarck as being a prettier town that has a lot more of the western culture that people think of when they hear "Dakota," but there's no 4 year university there (and Mary doesn't count).
posted by TungstenChef at 12:51 PM on May 10, 2011
Perhaps this is the grass is always greener effect? Growing up in Bismarck, my impression was always that Fargo had the most interesting cultural things to do in the state. The few people I knew who went to school in Grand Forks confirmed this belief, they quickly transferred to NDSU or U of MN, citing Grand Forks as being even colder and less interesting than Fargo.
I would recommend Bismarck as being a prettier town that has a lot more of the western culture that people think of when they hear "Dakota," but there's no 4 year university there (and Mary doesn't count).
posted by TungstenChef at 12:51 PM on May 10, 2011
Response by poster: Thank you both so much! This is really helpful. Now I just have to convince my Southern California surfer boy husband that this is a wonderful idea.
posted by fifilaru at 12:52 PM on May 10, 2011
posted by fifilaru at 12:52 PM on May 10, 2011
Glad to be of help :) I saw you had considered Iowa a while back; why did North Dakota win out over a nicer climate closer to larger metro areas? You mentioned over there that Maui was too remote, and there's not many places more remote than the Dakotas.
posted by AzraelBrown at 1:29 PM on May 10, 2011
posted by AzraelBrown at 1:29 PM on May 10, 2011
After reading your Iowa thread, I too am curious about your reasons for picking Grand Forks? You've got the worst of a lot of things there, the crappy climate of northern NoDak (much better to the east), the boring landscape of eastern NoDak (better to the E if you like trees, better to the W if you like plains), a long distance from a city of any size, and a social climate that's somewhat hostile to outsiders.
Without knowing more about your preferences, might I suggest one of the more rural U of MN campuses? They've got the low cost of living plus trees! Perhaps UW: Madison? Madison is a great town, it's got much better access to outdoor recreation than Grand Forks and it's a reasonable driving distance from Minneapolis, Milwaukee, and Chicago.
posted by TungstenChef at 4:11 PM on May 10, 2011
Without knowing more about your preferences, might I suggest one of the more rural U of MN campuses? They've got the low cost of living plus trees! Perhaps UW: Madison? Madison is a great town, it's got much better access to outdoor recreation than Grand Forks and it's a reasonable driving distance from Minneapolis, Milwaukee, and Chicago.
posted by TungstenChef at 4:11 PM on May 10, 2011
Cost of living is the big feature. I donʻt mind being remote, that is a big plus. But I would like to be on the mainland. Remote in the middle of the ocean and remote on the mainland is quite different. I really donʻt need to be near a metro area. I live on Maui and if I want to go to a metro area I have to FLY there (Honolulu) on a jet, get screened by TSA, pay $200, rent a car, and it takes a few hours each way. Mauiʻs metro area consists of a couple of malls and some movie theaters. I am still interested in Iowa :} but my husband is not.
I am not very social, but I do like to take university classes. I picked Grand Forks since that is where UND is located. Grand Forks ranked high on a "quality of living" scale. On Maui I have lived in houses that were little more than tricked out shipping crates with rats and roaches (and these were considered "nice" houses), so I really donʻt expect a lot. Gas is $5 a gallon. Food costs 2x as much as my sister pays in Connecticut. And I cannot get a lot of things I want shipped to me since Hawaii is a no-shipping zone for many companies. I want to set up my own ceramics studio and with the cost of things here, there is no way I can do that.
So remote, cheap, nice people who donʻt bug you, not too crazy with crime is what I want. I also hate a hot climate and the beach only makes up for so much....
posted by wandering_not_lost at 5:13 PM on May 10, 2011
I am not very social, but I do like to take university classes. I picked Grand Forks since that is where UND is located. Grand Forks ranked high on a "quality of living" scale. On Maui I have lived in houses that were little more than tricked out shipping crates with rats and roaches (and these were considered "nice" houses), so I really donʻt expect a lot. Gas is $5 a gallon. Food costs 2x as much as my sister pays in Connecticut. And I cannot get a lot of things I want shipped to me since Hawaii is a no-shipping zone for many companies. I want to set up my own ceramics studio and with the cost of things here, there is no way I can do that.
So remote, cheap, nice people who donʻt bug you, not too crazy with crime is what I want. I also hate a hot climate and the beach only makes up for so much....
posted by wandering_not_lost at 5:13 PM on May 10, 2011
You sound like you'll be able to deal with the isolation, the only other thing I can think of is the weather. The thing about the ND winter that really gets people is the wind, you have 4-5 months where it may be -10 with a 30+ mph wind. Outdoor recreation will become impossible, you have to be really comfortable with staring at the inside of your house. This is obviously an extreme example, but this video gives you a taste of what it's like to be out on a bad ND winter day. Bitter cold just doesn't do it justice.
posted by TungstenChef at 6:03 PM on May 10, 2011
posted by TungstenChef at 6:03 PM on May 10, 2011
I am from Southern California, just moved to Grand Forks last August, and work at UND so I feel ridiculously qualified to answer your question!
I largely agree with what Weathergal had to say, and have especially found the lack of interesting restaurants to be a pain. I will note that I had a remarkably easy time breaking into social groups, but that was chance and I have heard others complain about the social freeze-out (think Seattle Nice--superficially nice but never going to invite you over for dinner or a real chat).
Housing is more expensive than most areas, though I hadn't heard the flood explanation before (a LOT of things can be traced back to The Flood here, which makes the now-regular April flooding a wee bit tense). I live on your income or thereabouts so that's possible, but I live in a lovely (incredibly spacious, well kept up) apartment and don't pay for health insurance, among other caveats. You would be looking in South town for newer (better!) housing stock and North town for older (more interesting!) housing stock; North and South is basically defined by DeMers Avenue.
I am not sure what you'd like to know about UND, but yes there are certainly doctoral programs in the humanities here. The student base is somewhat more diverse than you'd expect (there's a thriving international population and there's plenty of non-traditional students as well). Because it's the flagship university, academics are taken seriously (NDSU, it's been explained to me, is traditionally the Ag School and UND is traditionally the liberal arts school though of course that's changed radically on both sides over the years).
Right now, North Dakota is in excellent shape economically (low unemployment and a budget surplus) but that is coming straight from commodities (mainly oil) so that could change rather suddenly. The political climate is quite conservative (to my disgust, Grand Forks just voted down a library tax and there's a lot of self-identified Tea Party folks) and I'm still weirded out by the guns and hunting culture. In short, watch out for culture shock!
Finally, as several people point out, the weather. I actually didn't mind this past winter but I did get annoyed at how long the snow hung on (I mean really--snow in MAY?!). The single weirdest thing was not the wind (though it does tend to whip, all year round) but the fact that once snow falls for the season, it doesn't melt till spring. So you quite literally have snow on the ground in April that's been around since November. That takes some getting used to. I do like the fact that, as several people have pointed out to me, people here really take advantage of the good weather. People REALLY get outside and you'll see them all over the sidewalks and parks. It's totally doable, is what I'm saying.
Overall: Grand Forks is a small but welcoming town, though I'd think long and hard about retiring here!
posted by librarylis at 10:26 PM on May 10, 2011
I largely agree with what Weathergal had to say, and have especially found the lack of interesting restaurants to be a pain. I will note that I had a remarkably easy time breaking into social groups, but that was chance and I have heard others complain about the social freeze-out (think Seattle Nice--superficially nice but never going to invite you over for dinner or a real chat).
Housing is more expensive than most areas, though I hadn't heard the flood explanation before (a LOT of things can be traced back to The Flood here, which makes the now-regular April flooding a wee bit tense). I live on your income or thereabouts so that's possible, but I live in a lovely (incredibly spacious, well kept up) apartment and don't pay for health insurance, among other caveats. You would be looking in South town for newer (better!) housing stock and North town for older (more interesting!) housing stock; North and South is basically defined by DeMers Avenue.
I am not sure what you'd like to know about UND, but yes there are certainly doctoral programs in the humanities here. The student base is somewhat more diverse than you'd expect (there's a thriving international population and there's plenty of non-traditional students as well). Because it's the flagship university, academics are taken seriously (NDSU, it's been explained to me, is traditionally the Ag School and UND is traditionally the liberal arts school though of course that's changed radically on both sides over the years).
Right now, North Dakota is in excellent shape economically (low unemployment and a budget surplus) but that is coming straight from commodities (mainly oil) so that could change rather suddenly. The political climate is quite conservative (to my disgust, Grand Forks just voted down a library tax and there's a lot of self-identified Tea Party folks) and I'm still weirded out by the guns and hunting culture. In short, watch out for culture shock!
Finally, as several people point out, the weather. I actually didn't mind this past winter but I did get annoyed at how long the snow hung on (I mean really--snow in MAY?!). The single weirdest thing was not the wind (though it does tend to whip, all year round) but the fact that once snow falls for the season, it doesn't melt till spring. So you quite literally have snow on the ground in April that's been around since November. That takes some getting used to. I do like the fact that, as several people have pointed out to me, people here really take advantage of the good weather. People REALLY get outside and you'll see them all over the sidewalks and parks. It's totally doable, is what I'm saying.
Overall: Grand Forks is a small but welcoming town, though I'd think long and hard about retiring here!
posted by librarylis at 10:26 PM on May 10, 2011
This thread is closed to new comments.
The biggest adjustment for me has been not so much the harshness of the winters, but the length. This past April was very cool and wet, and we even got some snow on May 1st. Days are already getting pretty long due to the latitude (sunrise currently just before 6 AM and sunset around 9 PM and we're still more than a month away from solstice). Folks here are more than ready to see it warm up, but there is still a threat for lows to drop below freezing into early June. A lot of gardens don't get started until Memorial Day.
Besides the winters, in recent years spring has pretty much become flood season. Grand Forks is pretty well protected, and the flood is mostly an inconvenience here in town. However, you will constantly hear about the flood fight, a controversy over a diversion in Fargo, the problems with always rising Devils Lake, etc.
It is fairly cheap. You may hear people complain that the housing costs are relatively high (the flood in '97 wiped out a lot of the cheaper single family homes), but it will be nothing in comparison to NYC or Maui. A two bedroom apartment with a garage can be rented for between $600-700. And there are places that are even more inexpensive. If you are looking to buy, there are many options. I bought my 3 bed, 2 bath older home for 141K in a nice tree lined neighborhood, and there are much cheaper options if you are into fixer-uppers.
Goods like gas and groceries can be more expensive in Grand Forks than places further south here on the mainland (lots of comparisons to Fargo). There are decent amount of choices for shopping with the exception of bookstores. Lots of people come down from Canada to shop.
People here are hockey crazy. I've only been here 11 months and I'm already sick of hearing about the Fighting Sioux nickname controversy that's been going on for about a decade. But a lot of people play recreational hockey also, and will rollerblade in the summer to keep in shape for it. It's something to do in the winter, but there is ice skating, cross country skiing, and snowmobiling if hockey doesn't float your boat. Plenty of outdoor activities are available in the summer, such as biking, fishing, etc. The Greenway is very nice (although currently underwater)
Social circles can be hard to break into. It is not very diverse, although there are more refugees moving in in the last few years. If you like ethnic food, you may be disappointed, as we have a lot of Americana restaurants but choices are limited otherwise. A couple of recent restaurant openings have given us Thai and Iraqi options, hopefully they will survive. Most people seem more excited by the fact that Grand Forks will finally be getting an Olive Garden. Sigh.
That's all I'm thinking of off the top of my head. Me-mail me if you have specific questions. Unfortunately, I don't know too much about UND or its grad programs.
posted by weathergal at 10:48 PM on May 9, 2011 [2 favorites]