Victorians had very little furniture I guess.
May 7, 2011 11:22 PM Subscribe
The bin is out front, my reciprocating saw is ready... too bad we haven't settled on a floor plan for our reno. AskMe, we need your votes!
My partner and I have been renovating the attic of our 2.5 storey Victorian into a master bedroom and bath. We're nearly done, but we've almost used up the budget. Unfortunately, we aren't perfectly happy with the second floor either (especially the stairs between the 2nd floor and attic). In particular:
a) The door to the attic is at the bottom of a flight of winder stairs. This makes closing the door difficult, as you have to do it from three steps up.
b) The stair layout does not allow us to move any larger furniture (including box-springs) because the door is at 90 degrees to the direction of the steps, and the ceiling height is only 8' for the first three steps.
c) The 2nd floor does not have a linen closet
d) The 2nd floor has an 8' x 8' room with a window that is too large for a closet, and too small for almost anything else.
We've been brainstorming for weeks, and have come up with three potential solutions. Here they are, complete with floor plans:
Option 0) Do nothing. Maybe put an armoir in the 8' x 8' room to serve as an (ugly) linen closet. Nothing else gets fixed.
Option 1) Shrink the 8' x 8' room to 5' x 8'. Build a laundry room / walk-in linen closet here . Use the recovered space to straighten the attic stairs. There is room for the plumbing below, but this would be the most expensive option
Option 2) Join the 8' x 8' room to the 2nd floor hall. Straighten the attic stairs and rotate the door to allow large furniture to be passed through.
All three options have benefits and weaknesses I've noted on my floorplan sketches. I would love to get your votes on these, or offer solutions I haven't thought of yet. There's no particular rush to renovate the 2nd floor, but I do want to finish the attic renovations which means we have to decide what will happen to the stairs now.
My partner and I have been renovating the attic of our 2.5 storey Victorian into a master bedroom and bath. We're nearly done, but we've almost used up the budget. Unfortunately, we aren't perfectly happy with the second floor either (especially the stairs between the 2nd floor and attic). In particular:
a) The door to the attic is at the bottom of a flight of winder stairs. This makes closing the door difficult, as you have to do it from three steps up.
b) The stair layout does not allow us to move any larger furniture (including box-springs) because the door is at 90 degrees to the direction of the steps, and the ceiling height is only 8' for the first three steps.
c) The 2nd floor does not have a linen closet
d) The 2nd floor has an 8' x 8' room with a window that is too large for a closet, and too small for almost anything else.
We've been brainstorming for weeks, and have come up with three potential solutions. Here they are, complete with floor plans:
Option 0) Do nothing. Maybe put an armoir in the 8' x 8' room to serve as an (ugly) linen closet. Nothing else gets fixed.
Option 1) Shrink the 8' x 8' room to 5' x 8'. Build a laundry room / walk-in linen closet here . Use the recovered space to straighten the attic stairs. There is room for the plumbing below, but this would be the most expensive option
Option 2) Join the 8' x 8' room to the 2nd floor hall. Straighten the attic stairs and rotate the door to allow large furniture to be passed through.
All three options have benefits and weaknesses I've noted on my floorplan sketches. I would love to get your votes on these, or offer solutions I haven't thought of yet. There's no particular rush to renovate the 2nd floor, but I do want to finish the attic renovations which means we have to decide what will happen to the stairs now.
With option 2, can you lengthen the wall with the stairs and move the door to give you 2' between the bottom of the stairs and the door? You'd still have 6' between the door and the far wall where you could maneuver furniture, but you'd also have space to close the door at the foot of the stairs.
posted by elsietheeel at 11:47 PM on May 7, 2011
posted by elsietheeel at 11:47 PM on May 7, 2011
Response by poster: Thanks bluedaisy. Are you suggesting we turn the entire 8' x 8' room into a laundry room (and leave the attic stairs alone), or build a 5' x 8' laundry room as shown in Option 1?
My original plan was to join the 8' x 8' room with the bedroom beside it. That would have made a brilliant new large bedroom with two large windows (which are a commodity in this long narrow house). Unfortunately we decided we didn't have the budget to remove the structural wall between those two rooms, and we also started thinking about what to do with the stairs.
posted by Popular Ethics at 11:48 PM on May 7, 2011
My original plan was to join the 8' x 8' room with the bedroom beside it. That would have made a brilliant new large bedroom with two large windows (which are a commodity in this long narrow house). Unfortunately we decided we didn't have the budget to remove the structural wall between those two rooms, and we also started thinking about what to do with the stairs.
posted by Popular Ethics at 11:48 PM on May 7, 2011
PS. What's below the stairs on the other side of the wall from the bathtub? That would be a good space for a cupboard for linens, if possible.
posted by elsietheeel at 11:49 PM on May 7, 2011
posted by elsietheeel at 11:49 PM on May 7, 2011
Response by poster: elsietheeelWith option 2, can you lengthen the wall with the stairs and move the door to give you 2' between the bottom of the stairs and the door? You'd still have 6' between the door and the far wall where you could maneuver furniture, but you'd also have space to close the door at the foot of the stairs.
That's probably doable. 6' should be long enough for a box spring.
posted by Popular Ethics at 11:50 PM on May 7, 2011
That's probably doable. 6' should be long enough for a box spring.
posted by Popular Ethics at 11:50 PM on May 7, 2011
Response by poster: PS. What's below the stairs on the other side of the wall from the bathtub? That would be a good space for a cupboard for linens, if possible.
That's just hallway, maybe 4' from the wall to the top of the stairs heading down. I could maybe steal 12" from that for a narrow closet, but it would make bringing furniture up from the 1st floor more difficult. Another option would be to rearrange the closets in the two 2nd floor bedrooms so that I can make a closet off the hall. I figured that would involve too much plaster demolition though, and at least one door through the structural wall.
posted by Popular Ethics at 11:54 PM on May 7, 2011
That's just hallway, maybe 4' from the wall to the top of the stairs heading down. I could maybe steal 12" from that for a narrow closet, but it would make bringing furniture up from the 1st floor more difficult. Another option would be to rearrange the closets in the two 2nd floor bedrooms so that I can make a closet off the hall. I figured that would involve too much plaster demolition though, and at least one door through the structural wall.
posted by Popular Ethics at 11:54 PM on May 7, 2011
Response by poster: So is that an option--actually hiring a professional?
Unfortunately not with what's left of our budget. (I figure something like that would cost about $500). I'm hoping the crowd-sourcing route works here :)
posted by Popular Ethics at 11:56 PM on May 7, 2011
Unfortunately not with what's left of our budget. (I figure something like that would cost about $500). I'm hoping the crowd-sourcing route works here :)
posted by Popular Ethics at 11:56 PM on May 7, 2011
Oh right, it's the second floor. Of course there's stairs under the attic stairs.
No, don't make that space even smaller just for the sake of a tiny closet. Totally not worth it.
The armoire as pictured in option 2 would be lovely. I think opening up the hallway would be a lot better than the laundry room option - as much as having a second floor laundry room would be awesome. Maybe you could find a place to put a laundry chute!
posted by elsietheeel at 11:59 PM on May 7, 2011 [1 favorite]
No, don't make that space even smaller just for the sake of a tiny closet. Totally not worth it.
The armoire as pictured in option 2 would be lovely. I think opening up the hallway would be a lot better than the laundry room option - as much as having a second floor laundry room would be awesome. Maybe you could find a place to put a laundry chute!
posted by elsietheeel at 11:59 PM on May 7, 2011 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Here are some photos of the space for reference. Here is a photo of the neighbours (exactly alike) house, where he's implemented "Option 2". (I like it, but my partner is leaning towards "do nothing).
posted by Popular Ethics at 12:12 AM on May 8, 2011
posted by Popular Ethics at 12:12 AM on May 8, 2011
Option 3: Turn 8x8 room into sort of an ante room to your upstairs master suite. Straighten the stairs to exit into the 8x8 room and don't have a door. Use it as an office or library - plus armoire for linens? Then it's a compromise between do nothing, yet you eliminate the stairs/furniture issue and the shutting the door issue.
Or do nothing and add shelving and rails. 8x8 isn't too big for a closet!
posted by elsietheeel at 12:17 AM on May 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
Or do nothing and add shelving and rails. 8x8 isn't too big for a closet!
posted by elsietheeel at 12:17 AM on May 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Bedtime. Good suggestions so far. Keep them coming! I will follow up any others tomorrow morning.
posted by Popular Ethics at 12:19 AM on May 8, 2011
posted by Popular Ethics at 12:19 AM on May 8, 2011
The pictures make it much easier to understand. I really like what the neighbors did. I know you are anxious to change the stairs (so you can get furniture up there more easily?), but if you are running out of cash, do nothing right now. Live in your new master suite for a while and see how the space evolves. Maybe you won't mind going up and down the stairs. Maybe you'll hate it.
But if your big concern about the stairs is furniture--well, that's something you're not going to have to deal with all the time. Doing a huge stairs renovations can wait until you know how you want to use the space.
So, I say, wait.
posted by bluedaisy at 12:26 AM on May 8, 2011 [2 favorites]
But if your big concern about the stairs is furniture--well, that's something you're not going to have to deal with all the time. Doing a huge stairs renovations can wait until you know how you want to use the space.
So, I say, wait.
posted by bluedaisy at 12:26 AM on May 8, 2011 [2 favorites]
Absolutely, Option 2. I was going to suggest your neighbor's configuration -- the open staircase makes it way easier to get stuff up and down the stairs -- but if you need a door at the bottom of the stairs then that's not going to work. Unless you can put a door frame at the top of the stairs? Means you don't need to run up and down the steps to close the door, which is a major pain.
Reasons for option 2: Extra light from the window, even if it's just into the hall, will make a big difference, as will losing the visual clutter from the two doors opening into the hallway (the 8x8 room door will go, and the door to the attic will be masked by the wall on the now straight stairs). The landing is large enough and private enough to function as a office/reading/storage space even without a door. And the breathing room and light will be very nice.
posted by jrochest at 12:35 AM on May 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
Reasons for option 2: Extra light from the window, even if it's just into the hall, will make a big difference, as will losing the visual clutter from the two doors opening into the hallway (the 8x8 room door will go, and the door to the attic will be masked by the wall on the now straight stairs). The landing is large enough and private enough to function as a office/reading/storage space even without a door. And the breathing room and light will be very nice.
posted by jrochest at 12:35 AM on May 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
I see good things about each choice, so I'm afraid I can't help much, but I'll say this: if you decide to leave as-is for the moment and wait to see how that space will best suit you, one solution for the bedroom furniture problem (if the main issue is the box spring) is to build a platform bed on-site.
My husband built a platform bed for us that was supposed to be fairly temporary, but we used it for years, and I was pretty sad when we moved some distance and decided that ditching it and buying a regular bed at the new location would be easier. At the time he constructed it, we had a) almost no money to spend on furniture, and b) lived on the 9th floor of a building with an elevator that was too small to fit large furniture. There are a lot of DIY plans for platform beds online, and they can be super-simple and super-cheap, or you can build in special storage functionality. The cool thing about platform beds is that you can completely change the look with different headboards, so your bedroom decor is not tied in to whatever style bed you have – and I think they are rather stylish.
posted by taz at 1:10 AM on May 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
My husband built a platform bed for us that was supposed to be fairly temporary, but we used it for years, and I was pretty sad when we moved some distance and decided that ditching it and buying a regular bed at the new location would be easier. At the time he constructed it, we had a) almost no money to spend on furniture, and b) lived on the 9th floor of a building with an elevator that was too small to fit large furniture. There are a lot of DIY plans for platform beds online, and they can be super-simple and super-cheap, or you can build in special storage functionality. The cool thing about platform beds is that you can completely change the look with different headboards, so your bedroom decor is not tied in to whatever style bed you have – and I think they are rather stylish.
posted by taz at 1:10 AM on May 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
The 8 x 8 room is likely a nursery or a maids room. Over here we'd call it a box room. You can say it's too small for anything, but it has a window and you can absolutely put a kid in there forever. Just be aware that by eliminating this room, you are potentially removing a bedroom from your property value. Also, it's a Victorian and the winding stairs are original to the house; I would loathe to remove them. Go build an Ikea bed up there if you need one.
Having said all of that, if you do not currently have kids but plan to, I cannot tell you oh how grateful you will be every single day for six years to have a laundry room on that floor. So, so glad.
PS: If you are putting in a laundry room, plumb a sink and put in a mini fridge and you can also make coffee upstairs. My parents did this and I'm telling you: it is the height of awesome every morning.
posted by DarlingBri at 1:45 AM on May 8, 2011 [2 favorites]
Having said all of that, if you do not currently have kids but plan to, I cannot tell you oh how grateful you will be every single day for six years to have a laundry room on that floor. So, so glad.
PS: If you are putting in a laundry room, plumb a sink and put in a mini fridge and you can also make coffee upstairs. My parents did this and I'm telling you: it is the height of awesome every morning.
posted by DarlingBri at 1:45 AM on May 8, 2011 [2 favorites]
I would go with Option 2 - straighten out the stairs & leave the area open. If the 3rd floor is going to be your master, the winder stairs will get very old very fast.
This is the middle ground but you couldn't revamp the open area into a laundry room later on when it wouldn't stretch your budget?
posted by jaimystery at 4:25 AM on May 8, 2011
This is the middle ground but you couldn't revamp the open area into a laundry room later on when it wouldn't stretch your budget?
posted by jaimystery at 4:25 AM on May 8, 2011
2nding putting a door at the top of the stairs which would leave all your options open.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 6:08 AM on May 8, 2011
posted by TWinbrook8 at 6:08 AM on May 8, 2011
Could you do option two but put in a laundry closet? That would leave the area open, but give you a use for the space and provide storage.
posted by that's how you get ants at 6:41 AM on May 8, 2011
posted by that's how you get ants at 6:41 AM on May 8, 2011
How about a variant of #2, but with a landing at the top of the stairs, and the doorway at an angle.
posted by nangar at 7:39 AM on May 8, 2011
posted by nangar at 7:39 AM on May 8, 2011
This is what I'm picturing (roughly):
posted by nangar at 8:22 AM on May 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
| | |_____| | | |_____| | | |_____| | __| |_____| | | | | | | | | | 2nd bedroom | . _| | door here -> | . | | | maybe? | .| | | | | |__ __|_________________| |__________|
posted by nangar at 8:22 AM on May 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: 2nding putting a door at the top of the stairs which would leave all your options open.
Unfortunately, right above the "8' ceiling height" line, the staircase opens into a roof dormer. I would have to wall that all off (and block off its windows) to put a door at the top of the stairs.
Could you do option two but put in a laundry closet? That would leave the area open, but give you a use for the space and provide storage.
That was our original preference, but we measured and found that we couldn't build a door around the washer dryer without covering the window in the 8'x8' room.
posted by Popular Ethics at 9:03 AM on May 8, 2011
Unfortunately, right above the "8' ceiling height" line, the staircase opens into a roof dormer. I would have to wall that all off (and block off its windows) to put a door at the top of the stairs.
Could you do option two but put in a laundry closet? That would leave the area open, but give you a use for the space and provide storage.
That was our original preference, but we measured and found that we couldn't build a door around the washer dryer without covering the window in the 8'x8' room.
posted by Popular Ethics at 9:03 AM on May 8, 2011
Don't forgot to make sure you are not cutting into support structure for the house with ANYTHING you are doing. Old homes are often balloon framed and this is very different structurally from modern house framing. A washing machine and dryer are heavy and can warp and move stuff and will likely make the whole house shake if put on the second floor of a balloon framed house, or even a modern framed house if the house is built with that in mind. Also be wary of changing stairs, they are often tied into the structure in non obvious ways and can also lead to problems if you mess with them.
Remember-never, ever touch structure unless you are a qualified engineer, or have had a qualified engineer check it out. And in a balloon framed house it probably is all structure, especially if the house has any structural masonry(actual brick walls, not veneer).
BTW balloon framing means the wall studs on the exterior walls and some interior walls do not stop at the floors but usually go all the way up to the roof structure. Joists and interior walls are very critical to house stability in this situation. Multi-story Modern framing is like a series of one story houses built on top of each other and much more forgiving of losing some structure but still not something you want to mess with.
posted by bartonlong at 9:12 AM on May 8, 2011
Remember-never, ever touch structure unless you are a qualified engineer, or have had a qualified engineer check it out. And in a balloon framed house it probably is all structure, especially if the house has any structural masonry(actual brick walls, not veneer).
BTW balloon framing means the wall studs on the exterior walls and some interior walls do not stop at the floors but usually go all the way up to the roof structure. Joists and interior walls are very critical to house stability in this situation. Multi-story Modern framing is like a series of one story houses built on top of each other and much more forgiving of losing some structure but still not something you want to mess with.
posted by bartonlong at 9:12 AM on May 8, 2011
oops, if the house isn't built with a laundry room on the second story
posted by bartonlong at 9:13 AM on May 8, 2011
posted by bartonlong at 9:13 AM on May 8, 2011
Response by poster: Thanks for the warning bartonlong.
It's a double-brick masonry house, so the joists sit on the brick. The wall between the stairwell and the hall is structural, but none of the options I've presented have me putting any new holes there. I've already checked the layout of the floor beams under and above the stairs and I'm pretty sure I'm OK (I had to partially damage the winder stairs to do this. That's one of the weak reasons I'm anxious to modify them). Also I am an engineer :)
You're right that the laundry on the second floor will probably be load during the spin cycle. I've researched online, and that seems to be universally the case, though most people seem to accept the trade off.
posted by Popular Ethics at 9:39 AM on May 8, 2011
It's a double-brick masonry house, so the joists sit on the brick. The wall between the stairwell and the hall is structural, but none of the options I've presented have me putting any new holes there. I've already checked the layout of the floor beams under and above the stairs and I'm pretty sure I'm OK (I had to partially damage the winder stairs to do this. That's one of the weak reasons I'm anxious to modify them). Also I am an engineer :)
You're right that the laundry on the second floor will probably be load during the spin cycle. I've researched online, and that seems to be universally the case, though most people seem to accept the trade off.
posted by Popular Ethics at 9:39 AM on May 8, 2011
Response by poster: Another selfish reason - moving the laundry upstairs gives me room in the basement for a work bench :)
Thank you all for your suggestions. The votes seem to be evenly split between Option 0 (perhaps with a laundry room added) and Option 2, though Option 2 is a little more popular. I think we'll take bluedaisy's suggestion and do nothing for now. That means I don't get to make full use of the bin in my driveway, and I can't finish the attic stairwell completely. But the cost of having to do extra drywall and painting later is offset by the advantage of not having to decide or spend money *now*. We'll just have to live with awkward, unfinished, and slightly damaged stairs in the short term.
I can't explain why I was partial to Option 1. Somehow I find that the 8' room wastes too much space, but I would be OK with a utility room if it were only 5'. No one appears to share that view!
You've given me a bunch of advantages and disadvantages I hadn't thought of. Keep them coming!
posted by Popular Ethics at 9:49 AM on May 8, 2011
Thank you all for your suggestions. The votes seem to be evenly split between Option 0 (perhaps with a laundry room added) and Option 2, though Option 2 is a little more popular. I think we'll take bluedaisy's suggestion and do nothing for now. That means I don't get to make full use of the bin in my driveway, and I can't finish the attic stairwell completely. But the cost of having to do extra drywall and painting later is offset by the advantage of not having to decide or spend money *now*. We'll just have to live with awkward, unfinished, and slightly damaged stairs in the short term.
I can't explain why I was partial to Option 1. Somehow I find that the 8' room wastes too much space, but I would be OK with a utility room if it were only 5'. No one appears to share that view!
You've given me a bunch of advantages and disadvantages I hadn't thought of. Keep them coming!
posted by Popular Ethics at 9:49 AM on May 8, 2011
Response by poster: nanger I really like your idea of a 2nd door though the structural wall into the front bedroom. The current door interferes with the closet, so there would be an advantage to moving the door and patching over the old one. I think we'll have to wait for that work though - I'm having a hard enough time convincing the partner just to take down the one wall!
posted by Popular Ethics at 9:53 AM on May 8, 2011
posted by Popular Ethics at 9:53 AM on May 8, 2011
Winding stairs are a lot more Victorian than straight stairs.
1) Why not put the door into your master bedroom at the top of the stairs? Do you need a door at all? At the top, you'd have more control over the door without having to go all the way downstairs.
2) How about a modified option 2? Take out the wall, but leave the winding stairs and turn the remaining area into a reading nook or something. Victorians tend to have a lot of wasted space in hallways, so you can make it more functional and reclaim it while accomplishing several of your goals.
You can modify the bottom stair area something like this or this (but with stairs extended where the right-side railing is). This would give you the elegance of winding stairs without the walls hiding them or preventing furniture.
You could also extend that the wall for a short linen closet - bifold doors would let you have it as wide as you wanted in that hallway - and move the bedroom's door down by the chair in your Option 0 picture.
Hopefully this describes it enough - if not, let me know and I'll mock up a picture for you.
Good luck!
posted by bookdragoness at 10:38 AM on May 8, 2011
1) Why not put the door into your master bedroom at the top of the stairs? Do you need a door at all? At the top, you'd have more control over the door without having to go all the way downstairs.
2) How about a modified option 2? Take out the wall, but leave the winding stairs and turn the remaining area into a reading nook or something. Victorians tend to have a lot of wasted space in hallways, so you can make it more functional and reclaim it while accomplishing several of your goals.
You can modify the bottom stair area something like this or this (but with stairs extended where the right-side railing is). This would give you the elegance of winding stairs without the walls hiding them or preventing furniture.
You could also extend that the wall for a short linen closet - bifold doors would let you have it as wide as you wanted in that hallway - and move the bedroom's door down by the chair in your Option 0 picture.
Hopefully this describes it enough - if not, let me know and I'll mock up a picture for you.
Good luck!
posted by bookdragoness at 10:38 AM on May 8, 2011
I'm a big advocate of historic preservation, but one of the tenets of that is that adaptive reuse is the best way to keep old buildings around. That means they have to be able to adapt to new functions or new house technology, within reason. The fact is that many Victorians were themselves altered to adapt with changing times, like the gas lighting era and then the electric lighting era. It's no crime, and outside of landmark properties, nobody awards points for keeping everything exactly as built.
Personally, while I (like DarlingBri) love the idea of the charming winding attic stair, Option 2 is probably preferable. The number of buyers who would be charmed by, and keep that stairway in the future is probably limited. We don't have the same needs as Victorians and we have different expectations of safety and convenience. Since you're (as I understand it) making the attic into a bedroom, you're not really losing one resale-wise, and you're making the upstairs more comfortable and airy as well as improving that attic room's access.
I personally don't like the idea of the front being devoted to a utility room, which is a function usually in back or the basement. But a nice study/office? Sure! Especially if there's a decent view. You don't want to close that off unless you're really using the room.
posted by dhartung at 2:31 PM on May 9, 2011
Personally, while I (like DarlingBri) love the idea of the charming winding attic stair, Option 2 is probably preferable. The number of buyers who would be charmed by, and keep that stairway in the future is probably limited. We don't have the same needs as Victorians and we have different expectations of safety and convenience. Since you're (as I understand it) making the attic into a bedroom, you're not really losing one resale-wise, and you're making the upstairs more comfortable and airy as well as improving that attic room's access.
I personally don't like the idea of the front being devoted to a utility room, which is a function usually in back or the basement. But a nice study/office? Sure! Especially if there's a decent view. You don't want to close that off unless you're really using the room.
posted by dhartung at 2:31 PM on May 9, 2011
This thread is closed to new comments.
So is that an option--actually hiring a professional?
Of all your choices, I think I'd go with the second floor laundry room, if you have plumbing nearby. Especially if the laundry is now in the basement. That room's a great size for a laundry room and, say, ironing board.
I might also have considered making that room into a master suite, but it sounds like you're doing that on the third floor.
posted by bluedaisy at 11:35 PM on May 7, 2011