Does it count as a diploma mill if they still make you take the classes?

April 8, 2011 6:30 AM

I switched universities. Did I make a mistake?

Stuff you can probably guess from my history: I'm an undergraduate in computer science. I'd like to either find employment in or go to graduate school for human-computer interaction upon graduation.

I went to semi-prestigious school (top 20) in my field, University A. My life fell apart, I moved around a lot with shelters, and switched schools to an online program of not-known College B. The shelter I was most recently with helped me settle back down and get a job in the town of University A.

The more and more I'm around University A the more I miss it. Meanwhile, with College B, I'm finding that I can pass courses with absolutely no effort, mostly including turning in work from Wikipedia. Honestly, I'm not learning anything and I don't think I would be even if I tried. I'd like to go to graduate school, or at least get a decent job, and I'm wondering how prepared I'm going to be for either when College B is, in my opinion, a joke.

Now the rub - I'd like to switch back to University A, but it would require another year of out-of-state tuition before they give me in-state. I'm already $60k in student loan debt, and University A would be adding another $30k-$35k to that.
College B is allowing me in-state tuition which would only add another $5k.
There's also above average University C, which is about an hour from where I live, which would give me in-state tuition and thus add only another $5k. To go to University C I would probably need to quit my well paying job. Also, the shelter helped me work out a good deal on my lease, so I would probably be commuting to save money there.
Community College or comparable is not an option in this area.

Is prestigious University A worth it?
Would staying at College B hurt my chances of succeeding in graduate school and a career?
Or is University C my best bet as far as bang for my buck?

posted by semp to Education (27 answers total)

This is a difficult question, but there's a pretty big factor involved in getting into grad school that you haven't mentioned in your post: getting letters of recommendation.

I don't know how you'll get any good letters if you continue going through an online-only program.

Also, yes, grad school is hard. If you don't have a good foundation of knowledge and skills from undergrad, you're going to hit a wall.

That doesn't answer your question, but it will help you weigh that extra 30k debt in the grand scheme of things.
posted by voltairemodern at 6:39 AM on April 8, 2011

You've given us no long term goals aside from the somewhat wishy-washy "go to graduate school, or at least get a decent job", so this is pretty hard to answer. What do you really want to do?
posted by mhoye at 6:42 AM on April 8, 2011

Response by poster: As far as letters of recommendation, my boss is a professor at University A and offered to write one. For additional letters, I have been trying to align my courses so I will have one or two professors multiple times so I can request a recommendation from them. However, the primary job of the professors of College B is not teaching, so I'm not sure as to how much weight they will hold.
posted by semp at 6:43 AM on April 8, 2011

You definitely should get out of the online school. Online schools get no respect in academia. Your application to graduate programs will not get nearly the same attention if you have the name of an online university attached to it.

This isn't to say it's impossible for you to get into graduate school if you stay at University B... But it certainly won't be easier. Grad school is competitive, especially in an economic climate like this. Not only will you have a harder time getting accepted, you will have drastically lower chances of getting funding if accepted. If it's obvious to you, as a student, that the university is a total joke, then it's going to be obvious to anyone judging your grad school applications that it's a joke. You can't let your education be a joke.

University C would most definitely be better, no matter what, to University B. Like voltairemodern says, letters of recommendation are what's most important. If there are well-respected people at University C in your specific department, then you'll be in good shape. Choosing between University C and University A is a tough choice, and it's okay to let economics help you decide.

But, in the end, this online degree is more likely to hurt you rather than help.
posted by meese at 6:44 AM on April 8, 2011

Can your boss at A help you to find scholarship money that would ameliorate the cost difference (or the cost overall)?
posted by rbs at 6:46 AM on April 8, 2011

Response by poster: First, College B is public, not for profit, and has a brick and mortar equivalent. I don't think there will be any way for anyone to tell that I did the online portion, either. It's not terribly well known, and I'm not sure what the in person component is like, but I imagine it's very community college-y.

Ideally I'd like to end up doing user interface design. If we're going really out there, I'd love to do it for Microsoft. I would also love to get some research in beforehand, or during my time at my future job.

My boss has helped me find some scholarships to cut the costs, but she's not actually in my field of work, so the help she's given is limited. I plan on applying for other scholarships, but since I can't guarantee I'm going to get them I'd rather not allow them to color my decision.
posted by semp at 6:53 AM on April 8, 2011

As a CS prof with experience in grad admissions, your online degree will count for almost nothing if it shows it is online. Either A or C would be better. It may be more expensive, but if CS grad school is your goal the money spent on B is being wasted.
posted by procrastination at 6:55 AM on April 8, 2011

Oops, didn't see your reply above. I know you want to be anonymous, but knowing A and B at least would be helpful.
posted by procrastination at 6:58 AM on April 8, 2011

If you waited a year to attend A, would you get in-state tuition then? You could save up money at your well-paying job for a year, then go to the better -- local -- school, not quit your job, and pay less.
posted by jeather at 7:00 AM on April 8, 2011

Response by poster: A: Purdue University
B: Thomas Edison State College
C: IUPUI

I really tried to stay semi-anonymous, but I really need some good feedback also.
My understanding on "University A's" policy is that I will lose enrollment there and would need to be readmitted if I waited another year. It's not the end of the world, but that paired with repayment starting on my student loans, is probably not the better of the options.
posted by semp at 7:06 AM on April 8, 2011

Could you re-enrol at A part-time -- one class a semester -- pay a bit more for those two classes, and get in-state tuition in a year anyhow? I am not sure how that would affect your loan repayment.
posted by jeather at 7:17 AM on April 8, 2011

I'm really not a fan of student loan debt. I think way too many kids mortgage their future and take on debt they have no hope of paying. Having said that, I think in your particular instance it is better to take on the debt. I know many, many software engineers at many top companies like Microsoft. The first most important thing before anything else is to be a stellar programmer (and it doesn't sound like you are honing your skills at B). The second most important thing is your college and for new grads your gpa. I think in your particular instance you will earn so much more throughout your life if you graduate from some rinky dinky school that in the end financially you will better off. If you work at a top company you can expect at least 80 or 90 your first year plus stock options. (there's never any guarantees and that's why student loan debt is scary) but if you commit to living frugally you will be able to pay your loans (and probably pay them off early).

Also remember that no one on the west coast will have heard of b. I went to a top-tier law school on the east coast, but it's attached to a small liberal arts college that no one on the west coast has ever heard of. I'm so sick of people looking at me blankly when they ask where I went to school. Even the recruiter was surprised to find it was a first tier school.
posted by bananafish at 7:43 AM on April 8, 2011

Sorry computer fail. That should have said "don't graduate from."
posted by bananafish at 7:47 AM on April 8, 2011

School is what you make it. You don't have to turn in reports from wikipedia, even though it will get you an A. If you're at school B right now and feel that you're not being challenged by the classes, then have a little bit of autonomy and challenge yourself to do better. People who go to top-tier schools and succeed aren't succeeding at top-tier schools because the classes are demanding. They're succeeding because they're driven to succeed.

Keep going to school B, save the tuition, and do what you can to eke every bit of worthwhile time out of your classes there.

Not especially relevant, but you say (ideally) you'd like to work at Microsoft. I know a few people who work at/have worked at Microsoft, and they graduated from ultra-top-tier schools (e.g. MIT, Stanford) with nearly straight As. I don't know how common that is across all their hirings, but in general those are the kind of people you'd be competing with.
posted by phunniemee at 7:51 AM on April 8, 2011

Maybe you've been told something else, but I don't understand why you wouldn't get in-state tuition. The way we've calculated it here in Madison, you're asked about where you graduated high school, where your parents currently live, where they have paid taxes, where you have paid taxes/registered a car/gotten a driver's license in the last few years, etc. Maybe your parents have moved/aren't in the picture, and clearly you've moved, but things like your high school location don't change.

tl;dr if Purdue granted in-state residency before, you should really ask them (if you haven't already) if your residency is still the same.
posted by Madamina at 8:17 AM on April 8, 2011

Also, in most states it's a common myth that people can just get in-state tuition by attending school at the out-of-state rate for a year. If that happened, every sophomore and up would have in-state tuition.

Typically, most states require you to live in-state without attending school (or at least THAT school -- online programs don't really count) for a year.
posted by Madamina at 8:21 AM on April 8, 2011

Response by poster: My dependency status will be changing. The year thing is the year roll-over they require after dependency status. It doesn't matter if I'm going to school or not because time in state is not the determining factor for residency.
posted by semp at 8:37 AM on April 8, 2011

Forgive me for harping, but I'd ask anyway, as most ask the questions about parents/high school regardless of your dependency status. I was 27 when they asked me before grad school; my fiance was 35.
posted by Madamina at 8:47 AM on April 8, 2011

Response by poster: Sorry, I'm trying to make it clear without being 100% comfortable talking about it. The short version of the story is my dependency status is changed because of an assault that happened. Although it's not their fault, my parents were ruled unfit to provide primary care by a court. Therefore I'm now an independent. By state/school/someone's rules I have to be an independent and live here for 1 year to establish residency. Because of the circumstances it doesn't matter whether I'm in school or not.
posted by semp at 8:58 AM on April 8, 2011

Could you take classes/enroll at IUPUI as part of your program at Purdue? Meaning, you basically are working on your degree from Purdue but you will take your classes at the IUPUI campus. I thought that was the whole idea of IUPUI...providing an easily accessible location for students of both Indiana and Purdue to take classes in partnership (then it became it's own entity). Depending on how they do their paperwork, your degree might actually say Purdue (sorry...I don't have time to fully research that at the moment).

Does IUPUI have some online classes you can take while you establish residency? That may help you cut some costs, keep your job, and still keep the student loans deferred until you get everything straightened out.
posted by MultiFaceted at 9:32 AM on April 8, 2011

Have you discussed the in-state residency requirements with a registrar or another representative of PU or IUPUI who would be well versed in the policy? It appears as though the policy may be flexible about the residence time period when moving has occurred due to changes in family circumstances. The application for a change in residency status requires much more information that could document a case for your residency. This might make it easier for you to get into the more rigorous program sooner.
In the neighboring state of ohio, my husband was able to be reclassified as a resident for tuition purposes prior to the 12 month waiting period due to other supporting information (specifically, full time permanent employment).
posted by anthropophagous at 9:44 AM on April 8, 2011

Ah, I see -- please accept my apology for nudging you toward revealing things that you may not have wanted to reveal publicly.

I agree with anthropophagous that discussing your specific circumstances may still be helpful. In my trip around this fine Big Ten university, I have worked in both admissions and the registrar's office; my ex is an academic dean, aka the guy who lets you back in after you've had issues and who can help you manage the impact of personal crises on your academic career. They want to help you. Even before you get back into Purdue, you can make an appointment and plot a course to figure out the best and most affordable way to do it.

And if you don't find support in one place: please, please keep trying. In my experience with my partner (unstable blue-collar home life; didn't start college until he was 30 because he thought "it wasn't for me"), it's clear that he takes no for an answer much more easily than I do. He's used to doors being shut and not having confidence in his ability to find a different way. From what you're saying here, it sounds like you may have some of that, too.

If you can find an advocate to do some of the harder stuff for or with you, that will help a lot. But your personal story, especially if you've managed to succeed and improve after a particularly tough time, can actually be an asset to you. Resilience and persistence are such amazingly underappreciated strengths, and it seems like you're building up quite the store.

At any rate, I'll butt out here, but if I can be of service to you -- either myself or a colleague -- please don't hesitate to get in touch via MeMail. I have a strong interest in helping non-traditional or "interrupted" students get back into school, especially since I've helped my fiance through the process, and I would love to help any way I can.
posted by Madamina at 10:05 AM on April 8, 2011

I'd like to go to graduate school...and I'm wondering how prepared I'm going to be for either when College B is, in my opinion, a joke.

Jobs in CS I can't really speak to, but from the way you are describing it, by attending this program (B) you are (unfortunately) really your chances of going to a decent PhD program, and may even make it difficult to get into a decent masters program. From the perspective of going to grad school, going back to Purdue is a much, much better option than A. An online degree is worth almost nothing from a grad school admissions perspective.

First, College B is public, not for profit, and has a brick and mortar equivalent. I don't think there will be any way for anyone to tell that I did the online portion, either. It's not terribly well known, and I'm not sure what the in person component is like, but I imagine it's very community college-y.

There is no way you will get admitted to grad school without letters from some of your undergraduate instructors, and they will have to describe in what capacity they know you. (Also, from a completely online program, they won't know you nearly as well as they would for in-person classes, so the letters won't be as good. If you don't switch, could you at least take some of your classes in person there, to try to prepare to get letters?)
posted by advil at 10:53 AM on April 8, 2011

I can speak from reputation that A is by far the best on your list. One way into grad school, with an odd background, is to be at that school and do very well and work with a professor, which it sounds like you are doing in part. So in that case being at A would help.

The other problem you are not considering is that even though your option B is cheapest, you aren't learning anything. This can be good or bad. Either a) you know everything you need to and are ready for grad school anyway or b) you are not learning anything and are not being challenged to develop the skills you would actually need to survive and succeed in grad school. Without knowing you, b is more likely. The undergrad degree institution is a testament to what you learned and are able to do. Grad schools know that, which is why they prefer a degree from a place with a good reputation.

There are many good and viable paths through life, but if CS grad school is what you want, you should take school A. I would encourage you to find a way to do it cheaper, even if it means waiting a while until you become in-state to finish your degree.

Memail me if you have other questions.
posted by procrastination at 11:09 AM on April 8, 2011

Is is worth (possible?) taking a year off? You can work more (if you aren't already working full time), so you'll have more money for when you are in college, and you would be presumably then considered in-state?
posted by AnnaRat at 3:27 PM on April 8, 2011

A note about IUPUI -- degrees from IUPUI are from either IU or Purdue. As far as I know, it isn't marked anywhere on the degree itself that you took the classes in Indianapolis.
posted by naturalog at 7:52 PM on April 8, 2011

Would staying at College B hurt my chances of succeeding in graduate school and a career?

Maybe, maybe not. But plagiarism certainly will, if it's ever discovered. Seriously. If I were you, I would:

(1) Ask the moderators to delete this thread, since it now contains identifying information.

(2) Come clean with the instructor(s) at College B to whom you turned in stuff taken from Wikipedia, with either an "I did ... on purpose and I am now very sorry" or an "It has come to my attention that I inadvertently ...", as your conscience dictates.

(3) Let the chips fall where they may; if that means having to retake the course, retake the course--it's easy, right?--and earn an A based on your own work.

I cannot overstate the importance of doing this as soon as possible, on your own initiative. If it ever comes out that you plagiarized in an academic setting, no matter how much of a "joke" you found that setting to be, harm will come to your reputation.
posted by AkzidenzGrotesk at 4:37 PM on April 9, 2011