Need advice on leaking roof.
February 12, 2011 11:58 AM Subscribe
I noticed water spots in the ceiling a few days ago. Obviously the roof is leaking. The roof is fairly new, put in fall 09. But we've got a lot of snow, and what looks like an ice dam on the roof. I'm not sure what it all means or where to begin. Seeking advice.
Noticed a few water spots in a room that's been closed off. Upon looking closer, other parts of the house have smaller, less noticeable but definitely there water spots. We just got a new roof a year and a half ago, and so my first thought was to blame the roof. However, upon doing some research, I found it could be because of an ice dam on the roof. Sure enough looking out side there are symptoms of an ice dam - icicles on the roof edge, ice build up over the gutter.
And this is where I found conflicting information. Some sources seem to say that an ice dam sucks, is bad luck and a leak from it has nothing to do with the quality of the roof. Others say in northern areas where ice dams are common contractors/roofers should be aware of the potential and use a heavy rubber tarp under the shingles.
We haven't gone up in the attic yet to further assess the problem. I'm not sure what to look for at this point, other than obviously water dripping.
I'm not sure if this is something we should be looking for the contractor who did our roof to remedy because of a fault of the install, or of it's just stupid, bad luck. We've been in the house for almost 12 years. Never had a problem with the old roof leaking in the winter, but also never noticed an ice dam. Then again, I never had reason to look for one because the roof wasn't leaking.
I'd really like to know what to look for in the attic, what people's thoughts are on the responsibility of the contractor with regards to the leaking, and what, if anything, we can do immediately. Its getting above freezing this weekend so I suspect we could see more leaking.
Noticed a few water spots in a room that's been closed off. Upon looking closer, other parts of the house have smaller, less noticeable but definitely there water spots. We just got a new roof a year and a half ago, and so my first thought was to blame the roof. However, upon doing some research, I found it could be because of an ice dam on the roof. Sure enough looking out side there are symptoms of an ice dam - icicles on the roof edge, ice build up over the gutter.
And this is where I found conflicting information. Some sources seem to say that an ice dam sucks, is bad luck and a leak from it has nothing to do with the quality of the roof. Others say in northern areas where ice dams are common contractors/roofers should be aware of the potential and use a heavy rubber tarp under the shingles.
We haven't gone up in the attic yet to further assess the problem. I'm not sure what to look for at this point, other than obviously water dripping.
I'm not sure if this is something we should be looking for the contractor who did our roof to remedy because of a fault of the install, or of it's just stupid, bad luck. We've been in the house for almost 12 years. Never had a problem with the old roof leaking in the winter, but also never noticed an ice dam. Then again, I never had reason to look for one because the roof wasn't leaking.
I'd really like to know what to look for in the attic, what people's thoughts are on the responsibility of the contractor with regards to the leaking, and what, if anything, we can do immediately. Its getting above freezing this weekend so I suspect we could see more leaking.
"in northern areas where ice dams are common contractors/roofers should be aware of the potential and use a heavy rubber tarp under the shingles."
Did you pay for this? I would think that using (typically Grace Ice and Water Shield or similar) is something of a premium option on a roof -- if you picked your roof based on price, this may have been excluded to allow the contractor to make the sale. But ice and water shield will NOT prevent ice dams -- they simply provide additional insurance to reduce damage from ice dams.
Ice dams are caused by poor insulation that allows the surface of the roof to warm up, melting the snow, which re-freezes as ice. This ice "lump" then acts as a "dam" allowing melted snow water to migrate up under the shingles that are up-slope from the ice dam. The roof is the point of failure, but not the cause of failure.
So I don't think this is your roofing contractor's fault.
posted by misterbrandt at 12:24 PM on February 12, 2011
Did you pay for this? I would think that using (typically Grace Ice and Water Shield or similar) is something of a premium option on a roof -- if you picked your roof based on price, this may have been excluded to allow the contractor to make the sale. But ice and water shield will NOT prevent ice dams -- they simply provide additional insurance to reduce damage from ice dams.
Ice dams are caused by poor insulation that allows the surface of the roof to warm up, melting the snow, which re-freezes as ice. This ice "lump" then acts as a "dam" allowing melted snow water to migrate up under the shingles that are up-slope from the ice dam. The roof is the point of failure, but not the cause of failure.
So I don't think this is your roofing contractor's fault.
posted by misterbrandt at 12:24 PM on February 12, 2011
Ice dams suck big time, and they can cause leaks no matter how well the roof was constructed. I had one that was over 8 inches thick, I resorted to using a propane flamethrower on the thing...brought it to its knees.
posted by lobstah at 12:39 PM on February 12, 2011
posted by lobstah at 12:39 PM on February 12, 2011
You are not alone. When a lot of snow accumulates on a roof, ice dams happen. Just deal with it. Break up the ice dam before you get a LOT more water leaking into your house. Talk to your neighbors and see what they're doing about it.You can probably hire a local service to do it for you. (They often use live steam, which is quite effective but isn't usually do-it-yourself.)
posted by exphysicist345 at 1:04 PM on February 12, 2011
posted by exphysicist345 at 1:04 PM on February 12, 2011
The ice dams are not your roofing contractor's fault, but it is conceivable that the leaks are made worse or more likely due to some corner-cutting by the contractor. In my northern Ohio town, a course of ice guard at the bottom edge of the roof is required by code, but the building inspector doesn't inspect anything until the roof is finished, and when he does drop by he never sets foot on a ladder.
posted by jon1270 at 1:10 PM on February 12, 2011
posted by jon1270 at 1:10 PM on February 12, 2011
Response by poster: Thanks for the advice so far. The reason that I was concerned with whether or not it may have been the roofers workmanship is simply because we never had a problem before the new roof. My fear was that maybe the roofer took away something that was protecting the old roof, and replaced it with something of inferior quality or did a shoddy job. I have little knowledge of roofs, so I just plain don't know these things. But, maybe this just really truly is the first year an ice dam formed.
I just talked to DH, and he said that when the contractor came out, there were vents just going into the attic, but they fixed those to vent outside (I didn't realize that when I made this post). We will look though to see if any where missed. Also when we're looking at the insulation, how do we know what deficient insulation is? Its the pink fiberglass stuff, I know that.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 1:10 PM on February 12, 2011
I just talked to DH, and he said that when the contractor came out, there were vents just going into the attic, but they fixed those to vent outside (I didn't realize that when I made this post). We will look though to see if any where missed. Also when we're looking at the insulation, how do we know what deficient insulation is? Its the pink fiberglass stuff, I know that.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 1:10 PM on February 12, 2011
...we never had a problem before the new roof.
Did you ever have this much snow on the roof before? Your old roof might've leaked with this much snow on it.
posted by exphysicist345 at 1:34 PM on February 12, 2011
Did you ever have this much snow on the roof before? Your old roof might've leaked with this much snow on it.
posted by exphysicist345 at 1:34 PM on February 12, 2011
I haven't tried this yet since we're finally getting melting temps here but "This Old House" is pretty reliable. You take an old pair of hose and fill one leg with deicer and throw it up on the ice dam so it melts a channel for the water to drain. I thought it was pretty ingenuous.
Quick Ice Dam Cure
http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/skill-builder/0,,211604,00.html
posted by stray thoughts at 2:24 PM on February 12, 2011
Quick Ice Dam Cure
http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/skill-builder/0,,211604,00.html
posted by stray thoughts at 2:24 PM on February 12, 2011
You can call a roofing company and they'll come out and shovel all the snow off your roof and spread deicer on the ice dam to break it up for about $100-150. You should do this. Ice dam let water seem in and it can get into your walls and cause rot all kinds of places for a long time before you notice it leaking.
If you want to you can then put up temporary heat strips for this winter to melt holes in any new dams that form. If not then you need to keep snow off the roof and remedy the insulation situation next summer after you've allowed everything in your attic to dry out (this is assuming you do have some insulation up there?).
posted by fshgrl at 3:04 PM on February 12, 2011 [1 favorite]
If you want to you can then put up temporary heat strips for this winter to melt holes in any new dams that form. If not then you need to keep snow off the roof and remedy the insulation situation next summer after you've allowed everything in your attic to dry out (this is assuming you do have some insulation up there?).
posted by fshgrl at 3:04 PM on February 12, 2011 [1 favorite]
You can buy what are essentially hockey pucks made of ice melt, and toss them up there. Or use a stepladder and judiciously apply loose ice melt. The idea is to form one or more channels through the ice for water to flow out, to stop the damming.
posted by yclipse at 3:09 PM on February 12, 2011
posted by yclipse at 3:09 PM on February 12, 2011
> how do we know what deficient insulation is? Its the pink fiberglass stuff, I know that.
Have a look at this map to see what the recommended minimum attic insulation is for your location.
And, make sure that insulation was not laid down into the eaves, possibly covering up the vents.
posted by beagle at 3:46 PM on February 12, 2011 [2 favorites]
Have a look at this map to see what the recommended minimum attic insulation is for your location.
And, make sure that insulation was not laid down into the eaves, possibly covering up the vents.
posted by beagle at 3:46 PM on February 12, 2011 [2 favorites]
We have one section of the roof that is low sloped and north facing. It dams up like nobody's business. It dammed up this year even though we doubled the insulation. My fault for not taking out the rake soon enough.
Really, the solution to dams is to keep the bottom 3 feet of roof clear of snow. if you can do this, you won't have dams. Roof rakes are the simplest and cheapest way of doing this. It just means that after EVERY snowfall, you have to be out there with the rake.
Like others have said, if you have dams already and a big old chunk of ice, using salt on the bottom three feet to clear a channel for water is key. This is what contractors would do and if you're leery about doing it right now, hire, but do it soon.
In the meantime, get a copy of The Virgin Homeowner, which explains in beautiful detail how every system in your house works and how it needs to be maintained and how to know when something is wrong. There is a whole section on attic insulation and roof ventillation.
posted by plinth at 5:08 PM on February 12, 2011
Really, the solution to dams is to keep the bottom 3 feet of roof clear of snow. if you can do this, you won't have dams. Roof rakes are the simplest and cheapest way of doing this. It just means that after EVERY snowfall, you have to be out there with the rake.
Like others have said, if you have dams already and a big old chunk of ice, using salt on the bottom three feet to clear a channel for water is key. This is what contractors would do and if you're leery about doing it right now, hire, but do it soon.
In the meantime, get a copy of The Virgin Homeowner, which explains in beautiful detail how every system in your house works and how it needs to be maintained and how to know when something is wrong. There is a whole section on attic insulation and roof ventillation.
posted by plinth at 5:08 PM on February 12, 2011
Best answer: Best immediate solution is to get the snow off the roof as you know. This can be an extremely dangerous job as a large chunk of ice could dislodge and slide off the roof taking you with it. I was on a ladder trying to remove an ice dam from a gutter when a huge slab of ice came loose knocking my ladder back. I was lucky I wasn’t crushed by the ice slab. So be very careful or hire a roofer to do it.
When you have time to check the insulation in the attic, here are a few things to look for. The roof insulation must not be blocking air flow from the soffits, make sure it’s not extending too far into the intersection of the rafters and ceiling joists. They make formed foam inserts that fit between the rafters to insure air flow. Have them at the HD.
Any and all penetrations into the attic must be checked for leakage. Many people mistakenly think they can stuff insulation in a gap to prevent the escape of warm air. Not so, insulation will not prevent air flow. You can see where air is escaping as the insulation will look dirty where warm air is flowing. You need to check around the chimney, attic access point, bathroom air vents, high hats, plumbing vents, electrical boxes. All these points can allow a tremendous amount of air to escape and heat the attic. And you don’t want to pay to heat the attic.
Inspect these areas by pulling the insulation away and caulking any gaps with expanding foam sealant (like Great Stuff). Large gaps like you might find around a chimney or chase for plumbing and electrical conduit may need aluminum flashing in combination with the foam sealant.
If you have forced hot air ducts in the attic, make sure that all connections are sealed, the joints around the air handlers as well. Use the duct sealant caulk and duct sealant tape. The tape is not duct tape, it looks like it but has a shiny silver exterior.
Pick a cool day in the early spring and cover your skin and hair and wear a mask and gloves. Easy!
posted by PaulBGoode at 6:45 PM on February 12, 2011
When you have time to check the insulation in the attic, here are a few things to look for. The roof insulation must not be blocking air flow from the soffits, make sure it’s not extending too far into the intersection of the rafters and ceiling joists. They make formed foam inserts that fit between the rafters to insure air flow. Have them at the HD.
Any and all penetrations into the attic must be checked for leakage. Many people mistakenly think they can stuff insulation in a gap to prevent the escape of warm air. Not so, insulation will not prevent air flow. You can see where air is escaping as the insulation will look dirty where warm air is flowing. You need to check around the chimney, attic access point, bathroom air vents, high hats, plumbing vents, electrical boxes. All these points can allow a tremendous amount of air to escape and heat the attic. And you don’t want to pay to heat the attic.
Inspect these areas by pulling the insulation away and caulking any gaps with expanding foam sealant (like Great Stuff). Large gaps like you might find around a chimney or chase for plumbing and electrical conduit may need aluminum flashing in combination with the foam sealant.
If you have forced hot air ducts in the attic, make sure that all connections are sealed, the joints around the air handlers as well. Use the duct sealant caulk and duct sealant tape. The tape is not duct tape, it looks like it but has a shiny silver exterior.
Pick a cool day in the early spring and cover your skin and hair and wear a mask and gloves. Easy!
posted by PaulBGoode at 6:45 PM on February 12, 2011
Oh, and I think any competent roofer working in a northern climate should have at the very least given you the option to have Rain & Ice Shield installed with the new roof, and explained the advantages of same. It certainly doesn't stop all ice damn leakage, but it's part of a system to help stop water infiltration and it works. Trying to save money by omitting it may prove in the end to be false economy.
posted by PaulBGoode at 7:01 PM on February 12, 2011
posted by PaulBGoode at 7:01 PM on February 12, 2011
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In most northern US states it has been a winter particularly conducive to ice dam formation, so it's not surprising that you have leakage from them now but not in the past. You probably had ice dams forming each year, but never bad enough to cause a leak.
What is supposed to happen is that your attic floor is very well insulated from the living spaces below, so that very little heat escapes into the attic, and that the attic is well-ventilated, meaning, ideally, vents in all the eaves plus a ridge vent, and gable vents just in case the ridge vent becomes snow covered. And, you should not have any fan ducts from bathrooms, kitchen or laundry exhausting into the attic. If this is the case, the attic air will always be essentially the same temperature as the outside air; the snow on your roof does not melt and you don't get ice dams or leakage.
So, if you poke around up there, you'll find one or more of the above elements are missing, meaning insufficient insulation, insufficient ventilation and/or duct exhausts into the attic. If you have any rooms built into the attic space with slanting ceilings against the roof, the space behind that slanting ceiling should be insulated and have ventilation slats (I forget what they're called) installed against the bottom of the roof boards.
In some houses, there's no easy way to remedy this, and that's when people install the rubber under the shingles, or install 3 feet of metal flashing along the roof edge. Or they install a complete standing-seam metal roof. But remember that those solutions mean your house probably continues to leak heat where it shouldn't, causing the dam. Focus on insulation, ventilation and reroute any ducts venting into the attic.
To do immediately: get a roof rake and pull snow off the roof above the dam, so it doesn't get any bigger. And don't do any chopping or you'll damage the roof.
posted by beagle at 12:22 PM on February 12, 2011 [3 favorites]