complicated relationship
December 30, 2010 11:39 AM Subscribe
sorry, very long...need relationship advice and I feel like I have no place to go.
I hate posting because I fear not explaining my situation correctly. I know for certain I’m in a difficult relationship. I met my girlfriend in late 2008 and we started dating seriously in 2009. My situation was complicated by the amount of travel I do for work. At the time it was every week but I’ve been either no travel for extended periods of time (entire summers) or every other week. I have been divorced since 2005, had a couple girlfriends and moved on from those in healthy ways. I say this only because I think dating someone seriously that is fresh from a divorce or worse is tricky at best.
My girlfriend is widowed by an extremely tragic car accident (3/2008). She has 4 boys (3 to 11). At first the relationship was nice because she didn’t mind my travel and lived far from town anyway. To make a long story short I made the mistake of letting them move in last spring. To say this family has recovered and was ready for a real relationship would be completely foolish (me). I think that I looked at things and decided if I was ready then I could work through their needs. I have a big enough house and a much better neighborhood/school system than they had. Their mom is someone that wasn’t working before the accident and now had to get herself a degree and career. By this time she was already graduated (living off the soc sec payments to the kids) and ready to start a new job – she had one before moving in. Through all of this she was always tentative about our relationship. She will constantly “break up” with me only to return later – especially after listening to me rationalize about the relationship, etc.
I thought with her job there would not be any money issues. I have a house and a mortgage and don’t need extra income to support myself and my relatively low debt. I’m a saver and I invest for retirement aggressively. She is chronically out of money. Constantly bouncing checks. Constantly over drafting her checking account – every month. She ended up quitting the first job and spent the summer with the boys at the pool (looking for a job of course). She finally landed a second (better) position and it impressed me that it was at least a management position. It requires crazy hours and most days she has to work at home in the evening (taking time away from these kids). Still the money problems continue. She has a 50K+year job and 900x4 kids per month in Soc. Combined we make well over 200k. I pay ALL the bills. I had to buy her new tires because they were so bald I worried about an accident. The kids had no beds. I stepped up and bought them for Christmas. I can’t figure out why she doesn’t make ends meet after all this time with household bills except her cell phone.
I won’t even speak to me no being prepared for what losing your father this way and this young. Of course that is a problem but at least 2 of the kids need to be looked at by a psychologist. There are too many behavioral problems right now to list. 3 of them (oldest included) are still wetting the bed most nights. This has driven me insane as she has let at least one of them piss up my couch. I come home the house smells like a nursing home. I yell about that and get some basic hygiene put in place but they won’t stick to it. The 2 older ones are feeling all kinds of shame and hide dirty diapers in closets or toy chests. I had to yell at her last night about mitigating these things (again) so they can’t lie or mess up. It’s not their fault but I refuse to think parents should mess up the basic hygiene. You have to have the structure and routine in place to work on this stuff and take some of the pressure of lying off of them. Now I told fibs when I was a kid. But these guys are lying in ways that frighten me. I’ve got a 6 year old that refuses to read and can’t concentrate enough to remember “the” from one line to the next. His mom is not spending any time working with him and I’m stuck feeling guilt when I’m away and can’t do it. The oldest gets in trouble for fighting at school and on and on.
She admits that she spoiled them when she was grieving. Who can blame her but their memories of a dad are only the best and brightest. This is what is so sad – “my dad could lift up this whole house”. But this has made me a bad guy. I demand we put dirty diapers in the trash. You have a bed time. You have to practice your reading and do your homework. You have to take a shower (esp when soiled). You can’t hit your brothers and on and on….
She takes this personally. Everything is black and white and she threatens me with moving out ALL THE TIME – holding it over my head. She will always come around and claim to agree with me on the rules. Then the rules are different when I’m not home and there is no structure or routine. She acts like she deserves it because of the tragedy.
Then there are the errant text messages and pics sent to my phone but meant for someone else. Then there is the “friend” she has posting all over her fb. One day she explains to me he is a registered sex offender and is being “phased out”. I took that bad but of course, believed her. At some point I helped her get on a google voice account. I came home after a trip and the screen was still up on the pc listing night after night of conversations with this guy (sometimes over an hour). He was also leaving voicemail everyday (he does live one state over, 400+ miles). I blew my stack and finally communicated directly to him to disappear.
I could go on and on. I need serious help to unwind everything in my head. The trust issues alone. I just didn’t know where to start…..
I hate posting because I fear not explaining my situation correctly. I know for certain I’m in a difficult relationship. I met my girlfriend in late 2008 and we started dating seriously in 2009. My situation was complicated by the amount of travel I do for work. At the time it was every week but I’ve been either no travel for extended periods of time (entire summers) or every other week. I have been divorced since 2005, had a couple girlfriends and moved on from those in healthy ways. I say this only because I think dating someone seriously that is fresh from a divorce or worse is tricky at best.
My girlfriend is widowed by an extremely tragic car accident (3/2008). She has 4 boys (3 to 11). At first the relationship was nice because she didn’t mind my travel and lived far from town anyway. To make a long story short I made the mistake of letting them move in last spring. To say this family has recovered and was ready for a real relationship would be completely foolish (me). I think that I looked at things and decided if I was ready then I could work through their needs. I have a big enough house and a much better neighborhood/school system than they had. Their mom is someone that wasn’t working before the accident and now had to get herself a degree and career. By this time she was already graduated (living off the soc sec payments to the kids) and ready to start a new job – she had one before moving in. Through all of this she was always tentative about our relationship. She will constantly “break up” with me only to return later – especially after listening to me rationalize about the relationship, etc.
I thought with her job there would not be any money issues. I have a house and a mortgage and don’t need extra income to support myself and my relatively low debt. I’m a saver and I invest for retirement aggressively. She is chronically out of money. Constantly bouncing checks. Constantly over drafting her checking account – every month. She ended up quitting the first job and spent the summer with the boys at the pool (looking for a job of course). She finally landed a second (better) position and it impressed me that it was at least a management position. It requires crazy hours and most days she has to work at home in the evening (taking time away from these kids). Still the money problems continue. She has a 50K+year job and 900x4 kids per month in Soc. Combined we make well over 200k. I pay ALL the bills. I had to buy her new tires because they were so bald I worried about an accident. The kids had no beds. I stepped up and bought them for Christmas. I can’t figure out why she doesn’t make ends meet after all this time with household bills except her cell phone.
I won’t even speak to me no being prepared for what losing your father this way and this young. Of course that is a problem but at least 2 of the kids need to be looked at by a psychologist. There are too many behavioral problems right now to list. 3 of them (oldest included) are still wetting the bed most nights. This has driven me insane as she has let at least one of them piss up my couch. I come home the house smells like a nursing home. I yell about that and get some basic hygiene put in place but they won’t stick to it. The 2 older ones are feeling all kinds of shame and hide dirty diapers in closets or toy chests. I had to yell at her last night about mitigating these things (again) so they can’t lie or mess up. It’s not their fault but I refuse to think parents should mess up the basic hygiene. You have to have the structure and routine in place to work on this stuff and take some of the pressure of lying off of them. Now I told fibs when I was a kid. But these guys are lying in ways that frighten me. I’ve got a 6 year old that refuses to read and can’t concentrate enough to remember “the” from one line to the next. His mom is not spending any time working with him and I’m stuck feeling guilt when I’m away and can’t do it. The oldest gets in trouble for fighting at school and on and on.
She admits that she spoiled them when she was grieving. Who can blame her but their memories of a dad are only the best and brightest. This is what is so sad – “my dad could lift up this whole house”. But this has made me a bad guy. I demand we put dirty diapers in the trash. You have a bed time. You have to practice your reading and do your homework. You have to take a shower (esp when soiled). You can’t hit your brothers and on and on….
She takes this personally. Everything is black and white and she threatens me with moving out ALL THE TIME – holding it over my head. She will always come around and claim to agree with me on the rules. Then the rules are different when I’m not home and there is no structure or routine. She acts like she deserves it because of the tragedy.
Then there are the errant text messages and pics sent to my phone but meant for someone else. Then there is the “friend” she has posting all over her fb. One day she explains to me he is a registered sex offender and is being “phased out”. I took that bad but of course, believed her. At some point I helped her get on a google voice account. I came home after a trip and the screen was still up on the pc listing night after night of conversations with this guy (sometimes over an hour). He was also leaving voicemail everyday (he does live one state over, 400+ miles). I blew my stack and finally communicated directly to him to disappear.
I could go on and on. I need serious help to unwind everything in my head. The trust issues alone. I just didn’t know where to start…..
There's nothing good about this situation. It doesn't even sound like a "relationship" as such but more like a charity case. You need to get this family out of your life for your own sanity. The mom will manage - she has a job and she'll probably find another guy soon enough. The kids aren't your kids and there's not much you can do for them.
posted by amethysts at 11:49 AM on December 30, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by amethysts at 11:49 AM on December 30, 2010 [1 favorite]
harh07 -- I meant to ask: Why have you not ended this already? What's holding you back?
posted by jayder at 11:51 AM on December 30, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by jayder at 11:51 AM on December 30, 2010 [2 favorites]
Why are you still in this relationship? Do you get anything out of it at all? This sounds like a nightmare. You don't owe anything to this woman and her family. It's tragic that she lost her husband, but her life is not yours to fix.
posted by something something at 11:54 AM on December 30, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by something something at 11:54 AM on December 30, 2010 [1 favorite]
You deserve better. Much better. You seemt o be invested in her and the family 9financially and otherwise) but she seems to mainly be invested in the free house and stuff for the kids. She's getting emotional satisfaction elsewhere.
Ultimately, this doesn't add up to a relationship at all. I'm sorry, but it is so clear that she is using you. It's unfortunate what happened to the family, but it's not your responsibility.
What exactly are you getting out of it? Please answer that to your self honestly. And get out of this unhealthy situation ASAP.
posted by cmgonzalez at 11:54 AM on December 30, 2010 [4 favorites]
Ultimately, this doesn't add up to a relationship at all. I'm sorry, but it is so clear that she is using you. It's unfortunate what happened to the family, but it's not your responsibility.
What exactly are you getting out of it? Please answer that to your self honestly. And get out of this unhealthy situation ASAP.
posted by cmgonzalez at 11:54 AM on December 30, 2010 [4 favorites]
Tragedy does NOT sanctify people. This is important, so I'm going to repeat it: tragedy does NOT sanctify people.
The only positive thing you listed about your girlfriend - in a whole slew of text - was that she INITIALLY didn't mind your travel. Everything else was lukewarm to damning... she's got major financial issues. She is manipulative (threatening, etc). She's not giving her kids the attention, specialist care, etc. they need to heal and thrive. She has no respect for your house, your possessions or your style of doing things. She is wildly inconsistent. She is possibly cheating, possibly with a sex offender.
While is it heartbreaking that she was widowed - again, let me repeat - tragedy does not sanctify people. It is not a get-out-of-living-one's-life-and-acting-decently card, at least not indefinitely.
My heart aches for her poor kids... hit with one major tragedy, then another (the fact that their remaining parent is neglecting their [admittedly-huge, daunting] needs). It WAS a mistake to let her move in, because if you end the relationship, it will result in another loss for these kids. This isn't to say you can never break up... just that the kids will unfortunately be affected.
It seems to me that, until this point, she has largely held the cards... you've scurried behind her, taking care of things, doing whatever necessary to keep her placated and NOT threatening to break up.
That needs to change. Buck up, think of what's best for the kids and for yourself, then sit her ass down and lay some truth on her. "X and Y and Z concrete changes (getting the kids therapy, financial transparency, etc.) need to take place by this date or you WILL be moving out, period, because this arrangement is hurting everyone but you."
posted by julthumbscrew at 11:59 AM on December 30, 2010 [16 favorites]
The only positive thing you listed about your girlfriend - in a whole slew of text - was that she INITIALLY didn't mind your travel. Everything else was lukewarm to damning... she's got major financial issues. She is manipulative (threatening, etc). She's not giving her kids the attention, specialist care, etc. they need to heal and thrive. She has no respect for your house, your possessions or your style of doing things. She is wildly inconsistent. She is possibly cheating, possibly with a sex offender.
While is it heartbreaking that she was widowed - again, let me repeat - tragedy does not sanctify people. It is not a get-out-of-living-one's-life-and-acting-decently card, at least not indefinitely.
My heart aches for her poor kids... hit with one major tragedy, then another (the fact that their remaining parent is neglecting their [admittedly-huge, daunting] needs). It WAS a mistake to let her move in, because if you end the relationship, it will result in another loss for these kids. This isn't to say you can never break up... just that the kids will unfortunately be affected.
It seems to me that, until this point, she has largely held the cards... you've scurried behind her, taking care of things, doing whatever necessary to keep her placated and NOT threatening to break up.
That needs to change. Buck up, think of what's best for the kids and for yourself, then sit her ass down and lay some truth on her. "X and Y and Z concrete changes (getting the kids therapy, financial transparency, etc.) need to take place by this date or you WILL be moving out, period, because this arrangement is hurting everyone but you."
posted by julthumbscrew at 11:59 AM on December 30, 2010 [16 favorites]
Everything is black and white and she threatens me with moving out ALL THE TIME – holding it over my head.
Good! Let her!! There is something seriously wrong with her and has nothing to do with her freeloading. But here's the thing, she's never going to leave no matter how many times she threatens to, because why would she? You're providing free room and board, and all you're getting in return is stress. And she's cheating on you with a sex offender, when she has kids? What a trainwreck.
You deserve way better than this.
posted by crankylex at 11:59 AM on December 30, 2010 [8 favorites]
Good! Let her!! There is something seriously wrong with her and has nothing to do with her freeloading. But here's the thing, she's never going to leave no matter how many times she threatens to, because why would she? You're providing free room and board, and all you're getting in return is stress. And she's cheating on you with a sex offender, when she has kids? What a trainwreck.
You deserve way better than this.
posted by crankylex at 11:59 AM on December 30, 2010 [8 favorites]
You sound like a very caring man. Maybe you need to feel you're saving others in order to feel good about yourself? There are much healthier and more satisfying ways to go about doing that, if that's what scratches your itch. You're doing a wonderful thing but your mental health (not to mention your savings) are taking a very unfair beating in the process. You never mention love. This is not a good, healthy, equitable relationship for you to be in; you're involved with a manipulative partner who is not bringing anything to the table. You need to end it. I'm sorry.
posted by iconomy at 12:04 PM on December 30, 2010 [3 favorites]
posted by iconomy at 12:04 PM on December 30, 2010 [3 favorites]
Give her 60 days notice and offer to help move her. It is just not working out. Sooner or later, this woman will bring you down with her if she sticks around. The only thing from your post I can even imply is that the sex must be great because everything else sucks.
posted by AugustWest at 12:15 PM on December 30, 2010
posted by AugustWest at 12:15 PM on December 30, 2010
Please, please help her pack her and her children's stuff and put her out.
You have no reason to feel guilty about any of this. (You don't mention guilt but I know so many men want to be Capt. Save A Chick. This one can't be saved.)
It is not your job to get grief counseling for the children. It is not your job to help her become a responsible adult.
Get out while you can. This is only going to get worse.
posted by notjustfoxybrown at 12:20 PM on December 30, 2010
You have no reason to feel guilty about any of this. (You don't mention guilt but I know so many men want to be Capt. Save A Chick. This one can't be saved.)
It is not your job to get grief counseling for the children. It is not your job to help her become a responsible adult.
Get out while you can. This is only going to get worse.
posted by notjustfoxybrown at 12:20 PM on December 30, 2010
I'm going to take another (possibly unpopular) tack here and say that its possible the poster is venting his frustrations on us, which is why everything sounds so negative. I'm going to assume that there was at least some affection here, and that we're just not hearing about it.
If you want to save this relationship, this is what you need to do:
1) Paying bills separately is for roommates, not partners. Sit down together and see what kind of a plan you can make for a household budget. You say you don't know where the money is going -- is it possible she has debts from her first marriage? Hospital/medical debts from her first husband's accident and/or ongoing debts related to funeral expenses that she's paying off? If you don't know where that money is going you need to find that out.
2) I do think the children need to see someone -- likely someone who specializes in grieving children. Google "Center for grieving children" and your town, and see what you can find. Many communities have free programs to help children who have been through a loss like this.
3) Get her to agree to go to couples therapy with you.
If she's unwilling to do these things, then this relationship is likely over.
If you want to end this, you can also do so without guilt. Were you my friend, however, I would probably try to advise you to try and maintain a relationship with the children, somehow, since you're likely one of the only stable influences in their lives.
posted by anastasiav at 12:20 PM on December 30, 2010 [1 favorite]
If you want to save this relationship, this is what you need to do:
1) Paying bills separately is for roommates, not partners. Sit down together and see what kind of a plan you can make for a household budget. You say you don't know where the money is going -- is it possible she has debts from her first marriage? Hospital/medical debts from her first husband's accident and/or ongoing debts related to funeral expenses that she's paying off? If you don't know where that money is going you need to find that out.
2) I do think the children need to see someone -- likely someone who specializes in grieving children. Google "Center for grieving children" and your town, and see what you can find. Many communities have free programs to help children who have been through a loss like this.
3) Get her to agree to go to couples therapy with you.
If she's unwilling to do these things, then this relationship is likely over.
If you want to end this, you can also do so without guilt. Were you my friend, however, I would probably try to advise you to try and maintain a relationship with the children, somehow, since you're likely one of the only stable influences in their lives.
posted by anastasiav at 12:20 PM on December 30, 2010 [1 favorite]
Speaking from experience as the recipient, there comes a point in abusive relationships when the abusee finds the strength to stand up to the abuser & rightly reclaim their life.
Taking time to post a lengthy description of the situation is an indication (subconscious or otherwise) that you recognize you must get out of it. Permanently.
You are depriving yourself of love & respect. No one will give it to you if you don't learn how to give it to yourself. You can't do that if you continue to let this woman & her kids (yes, HER kids, not YOURS) abuse you.
Get completely out. The sooner the better. And most importantly: leave no door or window ajar.
Good luck.
posted by yoga at 12:21 PM on December 30, 2010 [2 favorites]
Taking time to post a lengthy description of the situation is an indication (subconscious or otherwise) that you recognize you must get out of it. Permanently.
You are depriving yourself of love & respect. No one will give it to you if you don't learn how to give it to yourself. You can't do that if you continue to let this woman & her kids (yes, HER kids, not YOURS) abuse you.
Get completely out. The sooner the better. And most importantly: leave no door or window ajar.
Good luck.
posted by yoga at 12:21 PM on December 30, 2010 [2 favorites]
Get a lawyer to help you move this woman and her kids out of your life.
If you were helping them in some significant way, I wouldn't advise you to do this. You are not helping, you are enabling a VERY bad situation. These are two totally different things, and you seem to have one confused for the other.
Being the product of a crazy mom (and I wished daily my dad or someone would step in and remove her from our lives) I'm not sure what to do about her children. Once she is out of your home with her kids, I would strongly suggest visiting their school authorities and contacting social services. Bring any documentation you have concerning the sex offender. These are all folks who are qualified to mitigate and improve the situation in their family. You are not qualified, as you have actively discovered by trying to do your best.
At any rate, I'm sure your attorney will know exactly how to report this situation so that it gets dealt with in the appropriate manner and the children are safe.
-----
I no more believe this woman will move out voluntarily than I believe she is friends with or dating a sex offender. I think these are all empty threats and false scenarios designed to manipulate you. I'm sure there are more lies you are unaware of, too.
(Have you looked the sex offender up and confirmed her story? Because surely his status must be public record.)
This is why I think you need a lawyer ASAP. I think you've stepped in a huge pile of shit, you are WAY out of your depth, and you need the guidance of a competent legal professional on ALL fronts to get you extricated from this in a safe and sane way.
Lawyer. Now.
AGAIN - getting this resolved with the help of professionals will help those kids and you. Either way, you can not afford to allow this type of neglect (ABUSE) go on under your roof.
posted by jbenben at 12:28 PM on December 30, 2010 [4 favorites]
If you were helping them in some significant way, I wouldn't advise you to do this. You are not helping, you are enabling a VERY bad situation. These are two totally different things, and you seem to have one confused for the other.
Being the product of a crazy mom (and I wished daily my dad or someone would step in and remove her from our lives) I'm not sure what to do about her children. Once she is out of your home with her kids, I would strongly suggest visiting their school authorities and contacting social services. Bring any documentation you have concerning the sex offender. These are all folks who are qualified to mitigate and improve the situation in their family. You are not qualified, as you have actively discovered by trying to do your best.
At any rate, I'm sure your attorney will know exactly how to report this situation so that it gets dealt with in the appropriate manner and the children are safe.
-----
I no more believe this woman will move out voluntarily than I believe she is friends with or dating a sex offender. I think these are all empty threats and false scenarios designed to manipulate you. I'm sure there are more lies you are unaware of, too.
(Have you looked the sex offender up and confirmed her story? Because surely his status must be public record.)
This is why I think you need a lawyer ASAP. I think you've stepped in a huge pile of shit, you are WAY out of your depth, and you need the guidance of a competent legal professional on ALL fronts to get you extricated from this in a safe and sane way.
Lawyer. Now.
AGAIN - getting this resolved with the help of professionals will help those kids and you. Either way, you can not afford to allow this type of neglect (ABUSE) go on under your roof.
posted by jbenben at 12:28 PM on December 30, 2010 [4 favorites]
I always assume that someone is venting when they rant like this... and I mean rant in the stream of consciousness tone of the OP. Even so... Please get her and her children out. I feel for those kids, but my word man, you cannot save them from themselves or their poor excuse for a mother.
posted by FlamingBore at 12:48 PM on December 30, 2010
posted by FlamingBore at 12:48 PM on December 30, 2010
I concur that you need to get out. But if you feel like you're dumping the kids, notify their school about what's happening so they can hook the kids up with the school psychologist and social worker. You're not their guardian so they can't give you information about the kids, but there's no reason you can't give a report to them.
Then get them out and don't look back. I'm sorry this happened to you.
posted by christinetheslp at 12:52 PM on December 30, 2010
Then get them out and don't look back. I'm sorry this happened to you.
posted by christinetheslp at 12:52 PM on December 30, 2010
Response by poster: What I ended up posting is, of course, and extremely short summary of what has gone on here. I liked the relationship when it was just dating (I have a traditional lifestyle, one woman man, clean cut, etc). Where I screw up is what I need to fix. I should not have her move in with me. I made some critical errors of judgement here that I need to avoid in the future.
I confronted her about cheating and was satisfied with her answer relative to any kind of sex. What hurts me about the calls to the sex offender guy was that when I was on the road trying to call her after dinner she would be like "i fell asleep", etc. Then I find her on the phone with him for hours at a time. I do think there was a period of time when she had all kinds of guys calling and she likes to send mms - if you get my drift. Frankly when your SO likes to send you pics it's nice. Unfortunately she was sending to who knows who else. She admits to being a flirt but says it stopped. I understand when people date sometimes it hasn't reached a level where even other flirty relationships should drop off. When I met her I was chatting with 2 or 3 other people so looking back I cut that stuff off early. After sitting in the Detroit airport a couple times with the wrong txt in my inbox it becomes hard not to worry. Still she lied about it the whole time and it went on for months.
I cannot stress enough it is SO much more complicated than what I've written here. This is a 2+ year relationship. I'm SO confused and hurt and I can't seem to get myself some clarity and resolution.
posted by harh07 at 12:52 PM on December 30, 2010
I confronted her about cheating and was satisfied with her answer relative to any kind of sex. What hurts me about the calls to the sex offender guy was that when I was on the road trying to call her after dinner she would be like "i fell asleep", etc. Then I find her on the phone with him for hours at a time. I do think there was a period of time when she had all kinds of guys calling and she likes to send mms - if you get my drift. Frankly when your SO likes to send you pics it's nice. Unfortunately she was sending to who knows who else. She admits to being a flirt but says it stopped. I understand when people date sometimes it hasn't reached a level where even other flirty relationships should drop off. When I met her I was chatting with 2 or 3 other people so looking back I cut that stuff off early. After sitting in the Detroit airport a couple times with the wrong txt in my inbox it becomes hard not to worry. Still she lied about it the whole time and it went on for months.
I cannot stress enough it is SO much more complicated than what I've written here. This is a 2+ year relationship. I'm SO confused and hurt and I can't seem to get myself some clarity and resolution.
posted by harh07 at 12:52 PM on December 30, 2010
A lot of people are telling you to break up with this woman, and I worry that you may reject all of their advice. When you love someone and have lived with someone, it can be very, very hard to give them up. When you feel sorry for someone, it can be very, very hard to stop helping them.
However, you need to admit that living with this woman and her four children is not working. There is something seriously dysfunctional about it all, and your story leaves me, slack-jawed, asking aloud, 'Where's all her money going!?" This is all just messed up. You seem way too preoccupied just with "Is she cheating on me?" and ignoring all the other features of your relationship that are unhealthy and, from an external point of view, really sad.
Even if you don't want to break up with her, even if you don't want to leave her children, you should at least consider her moving out. Again, your relationship is dysfunctional. Things aren't working. It sounds like she never fully recovered from her husband's death and now she's reeling, unsure of who she is and especially unsure of who the hell you are to her. It seems like she needs some space, that she needs to figure out what it means to stand on her own two feet, that she needs to rediscover what it means to be a parent to her children. And that's something she can't do while living with you, putting all responsibility on you, depending on you to make her life work to whatever extent it can.
The problems she has you can't solve. The problems she has require her to take responsibility for herself. And until she does that, your relationship just cannot work.
So, think, seriously, about having her move out. Even if you don't want to break up with her, even if you don't think of her as the MF in DTMFA. She needs it. (Also take seriously the advice to get a lawyer. Again, even if you love her, she is unwell and she may be dangerous to you, not just emotionally but perhaps financially and legally.)
In short, keep this in mind: loving someone doesn't mean letting them use you.
posted by meese at 12:59 PM on December 30, 2010 [6 favorites]
However, you need to admit that living with this woman and her four children is not working. There is something seriously dysfunctional about it all, and your story leaves me, slack-jawed, asking aloud, 'Where's all her money going!?" This is all just messed up. You seem way too preoccupied just with "Is she cheating on me?" and ignoring all the other features of your relationship that are unhealthy and, from an external point of view, really sad.
Even if you don't want to break up with her, even if you don't want to leave her children, you should at least consider her moving out. Again, your relationship is dysfunctional. Things aren't working. It sounds like she never fully recovered from her husband's death and now she's reeling, unsure of who she is and especially unsure of who the hell you are to her. It seems like she needs some space, that she needs to figure out what it means to stand on her own two feet, that she needs to rediscover what it means to be a parent to her children. And that's something she can't do while living with you, putting all responsibility on you, depending on you to make her life work to whatever extent it can.
The problems she has you can't solve. The problems she has require her to take responsibility for herself. And until she does that, your relationship just cannot work.
So, think, seriously, about having her move out. Even if you don't want to break up with her, even if you don't think of her as the MF in DTMFA. She needs it. (Also take seriously the advice to get a lawyer. Again, even if you love her, she is unwell and she may be dangerous to you, not just emotionally but perhaps financially and legally.)
In short, keep this in mind: loving someone doesn't mean letting them use you.
posted by meese at 12:59 PM on December 30, 2010 [6 favorites]
I cannot stress enough it is SO much more complicated than what I've written here.
But isn't everything more complicated than just about any written re-telling of it? You've supplied us with what appear to be the pertinent details. She sounds horrible, frankly, and I think it's a symptom of your own victimhood as an abusee (Stockholm syndrome or something like that) that you are so tolerant of her ongoing relationships with other men while she lives off of your generosity. A needless generosity, it appears, since a $50,000 per year job is plenty to support her and her children even in the absence of the social security benefits her children receive.
Life does not to be this miserable.
Imagine if the gender roles were reversed but the facts all remained the same. Wouldn't you think that a woman who was occupying your current position would be insane to tolerate what you're apparently tolerating?
posted by jayder at 1:03 PM on December 30, 2010
But isn't everything more complicated than just about any written re-telling of it? You've supplied us with what appear to be the pertinent details. She sounds horrible, frankly, and I think it's a symptom of your own victimhood as an abusee (Stockholm syndrome or something like that) that you are so tolerant of her ongoing relationships with other men while she lives off of your generosity. A needless generosity, it appears, since a $50,000 per year job is plenty to support her and her children even in the absence of the social security benefits her children receive.
Life does not to be this miserable.
Imagine if the gender roles were reversed but the facts all remained the same. Wouldn't you think that a woman who was occupying your current position would be insane to tolerate what you're apparently tolerating?
posted by jayder at 1:03 PM on December 30, 2010
Thanks for the update.
The standard reply here is that you need a therapist asap to help you sort through all of this. I repeat that I believe you need a lawyer, too.
"I made some critical errors of judgement here that I need to avoid in the future."
Avoid what in the future? Do you think this situation with this woman is somehow salvageable??
I'm honestly confused.
posted by jbenben at 1:10 PM on December 30, 2010 [1 favorite]
The standard reply here is that you need a therapist asap to help you sort through all of this. I repeat that I believe you need a lawyer, too.
"I made some critical errors of judgement here that I need to avoid in the future."
Avoid what in the future? Do you think this situation with this woman is somehow salvageable??
I'm honestly confused.
posted by jbenben at 1:10 PM on December 30, 2010 [1 favorite]
It's not complicated. Sounds like you have very strong values that emphasize loyalty and sticking to a problem: but you did not create this problem! She did. You are not her knight-in-shining-armor saving her and getting her to fly right. You're a chump, a cuckold being taken advantage of by a woman who doesn't care about anyone else but herself. She will drain your life and drain your savings and then leave you for the sex offender; I sincerely hope she doesn't just disappear one day and leave you with her kids.
And why stick with this person who is making you miserable when there are ton of women out there who share the same values and will bring you happiness without the drama?
posted by lychee at 1:12 PM on December 30, 2010 [3 favorites]
And why stick with this person who is making you miserable when there are ton of women out there who share the same values and will bring you happiness without the drama?
posted by lychee at 1:12 PM on December 30, 2010 [3 favorites]
You have convinced yourself that you are helping this family, but I would like to point out that your disgust for and resentment of the children is palpable in your post. Yes, things might be objectively "worse" for them if you stop enabling their mother and evict them all from your home and your life--but at least you will no longer be actively contributing to the damage that these children are suffering every day that this is the only life they know.
Think about this: what kind of male/female relationship modeling are you giving them?
posted by Scram at 1:27 PM on December 30, 2010 [1 favorite]
Think about this: what kind of male/female relationship modeling are you giving them?
posted by Scram at 1:27 PM on December 30, 2010 [1 favorite]
Three Questions:
1. What were you hoping to get out of AskMe? Validation on some particular point? A strategy to untangle the entire situation? Please clarify your goals or we can't help.
2. Why are you resistant to ending things with this woman?
(not being mean, just pretty sure it's the question on everyone's mind in light of your update)
3. Do you think you are in emotional, physical, financial, and legal danger right now? If not, what do you think your position is at this time? Maybe we don't understand the situation as you've described it.
posted by jbenben at 1:29 PM on December 30, 2010
1. What were you hoping to get out of AskMe? Validation on some particular point? A strategy to untangle the entire situation? Please clarify your goals or we can't help.
2. Why are you resistant to ending things with this woman?
(not being mean, just pretty sure it's the question on everyone's mind in light of your update)
3. Do you think you are in emotional, physical, financial, and legal danger right now? If not, what do you think your position is at this time? Maybe we don't understand the situation as you've described it.
posted by jbenben at 1:29 PM on December 30, 2010
All your efforts to keep the household together seem to be negated by the deliberate actions this woman is taking. Every action on her part signals her lack of commitment (and ability) to creating a respectful, safe and loving environment for both you and her kids.
The only way to change this situation is to act in your best interest since she clearly does not have yours in mind. Your relationship is complicated. Yeah, that's very much clear. But it doesn't need to be further complicated by the constant triage you're having to perform. Living a life in a constant state of emergency is going to ruin you. Do it for you since the only person who can help your woman and her children is HER. Your home is not the place for her to do that.
I wish you the best.
posted by loquat at 1:37 PM on December 30, 2010
The only way to change this situation is to act in your best interest since she clearly does not have yours in mind. Your relationship is complicated. Yeah, that's very much clear. But it doesn't need to be further complicated by the constant triage you're having to perform. Living a life in a constant state of emergency is going to ruin you. Do it for you since the only person who can help your woman and her children is HER. Your home is not the place for her to do that.
I wish you the best.
posted by loquat at 1:37 PM on December 30, 2010
Response by poster: jbenben - avoid future train wreck relationships.
Scram - not sure what sounds like resentment for the kids. Nothing here is their fault. The blame for unsanitary conditions falls to the mom, end of story. I have made that very clear. I'm serious when I say I've come home to my house smelling like a nursing home. No exagerations. These kids need help. One of them has a bad cavity (for months) and has not seen a dentist yet. I have said "I will take him", "There is nothing more important than getting to the dentist right now". I have had serious fun playing with these kids. It's just that in this relationship that is all they expect.
I don't feel like I'm in any kind of danger. I have lost some money yes, but nothing critical that will hurt me long term (no joint accounts, etc). Ditto on the legal stuff. I did check to see if I could evict her. I can if needed. She always claims she can leave in days.
My position is confused. I'm just worn out from dealing with the same problems over and over again. I've been lied to at time in my life when I'm ready to love and have healthy relationships.
posted by harh07 at 1:53 PM on December 30, 2010
Scram - not sure what sounds like resentment for the kids. Nothing here is their fault. The blame for unsanitary conditions falls to the mom, end of story. I have made that very clear. I'm serious when I say I've come home to my house smelling like a nursing home. No exagerations. These kids need help. One of them has a bad cavity (for months) and has not seen a dentist yet. I have said "I will take him", "There is nothing more important than getting to the dentist right now". I have had serious fun playing with these kids. It's just that in this relationship that is all they expect.
I don't feel like I'm in any kind of danger. I have lost some money yes, but nothing critical that will hurt me long term (no joint accounts, etc). Ditto on the legal stuff. I did check to see if I could evict her. I can if needed. She always claims she can leave in days.
My position is confused. I'm just worn out from dealing with the same problems over and over again. I've been lied to at time in my life when I'm ready to love and have healthy relationships.
posted by harh07 at 1:53 PM on December 30, 2010
She is lying to you. The money, the other guys. Remove her from your life. Be prepared to stay elsewhere if she gets all crazy.
posted by bravowhiskey at 1:53 PM on December 30, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by bravowhiskey at 1:53 PM on December 30, 2010 [2 favorites]
Get her out of your life. If this is a crazy relationship in a pattern of crazy relationships, spend some time single and get to therapy for some serious self-reflection on how you get yourself into these situations.
posted by Anonymous at 2:08 PM on December 30, 2010
posted by Anonymous at 2:08 PM on December 30, 2010
My position is confused. I'm just worn out from dealing with the same problems over and over again.
Generally speaking, the details of the problems don't matter, only the thing I quoted. A relationship shouldn't wear you out in the long term, it should make you stronger. Yes, it's possible for particular problems to cause that sort of feeling short-term, but in a healthy relationship you work through it and return to normal.
If you are constantly feeling drained and worn out by a relationship, even if there are short periods of happiness, the relationship is not working and not good for you. If the answer to "would I feel better if I were alone" is usually "yes", it's time to break up.
posted by Justinian at 2:27 PM on December 30, 2010 [1 favorite]
Generally speaking, the details of the problems don't matter, only the thing I quoted. A relationship shouldn't wear you out in the long term, it should make you stronger. Yes, it's possible for particular problems to cause that sort of feeling short-term, but in a healthy relationship you work through it and return to normal.
If you are constantly feeling drained and worn out by a relationship, even if there are short periods of happiness, the relationship is not working and not good for you. If the answer to "would I feel better if I were alone" is usually "yes", it's time to break up.
posted by Justinian at 2:27 PM on December 30, 2010 [1 favorite]
Time to sit down with her...
A first step...
"This relationship isn't working for me anymore. My mental and emotional health are suffering. I'm sorry, but I need you to move out as soon as possible."
Be kind and gentle, but be firm. Stick to your guns. Do what you can to help her move out. The goal is to remove her and her children, as sad as it may be, from your life.
For future relationships, please don't consider moving in together (or needless to say, marriage, for that matter), until you've at least dated for a year...(or two?)
You cannot help other people or have a healthy relationship unless you and the other person are in the right state of mind. Neither you nor she sound like you are good for one another. Time for the relationship to end.
posted by The ____ of Justice at 2:33 PM on December 30, 2010 [2 favorites]
A first step...
"This relationship isn't working for me anymore. My mental and emotional health are suffering. I'm sorry, but I need you to move out as soon as possible."
Be kind and gentle, but be firm. Stick to your guns. Do what you can to help her move out. The goal is to remove her and her children, as sad as it may be, from your life.
For future relationships, please don't consider moving in together (or needless to say, marriage, for that matter), until you've at least dated for a year...(or two?)
You cannot help other people or have a healthy relationship unless you and the other person are in the right state of mind. Neither you nor she sound like you are good for one another. Time for the relationship to end.
posted by The ____ of Justice at 2:33 PM on December 30, 2010 [2 favorites]
Given that you clearly care for the woman and that there are children involved, before you DTMFA, you need to sort out the various problems you're facing, and then sit down and talk with her.
1) The children's mental and physical health. Does she care? Does she just feel overwhelmed by it all? Why is she not taking proper care of her kids?
(Note: make a distinction between the problems that are serious and those that are not. An 11-year-old wetting the bed should be addressed. A six-year-old not reading is not the end of the world; someone needs to talk to the child's teacher and find out if there is reason for concern. Lots of kids don't read until later than this. The kids' lying and hiding things from you is serious.)
2) The finances. Why not ask her to keep track of her spending, and to share that information with you? If you are paying all the bills, yet she has an income, this is not too much to ask. Some people are really, really bad with money. That doesn't automatically make them bad people, but they DO need to acknowledge the weakness and figure out how to make themselves accountable.
3) Your relationship. If you're not comfortable with the contact she's having with other men (and it doesn't sound like you're a particularly jealous guy, just a harried one), then explain your needs to her. Ask if she can live with cutting off contact with these shady characters.
Finally, if she is truly unwilling to work with you on these three critical matters, then it's over. I do not at all understand why the ultimatums have all been coming from her? Why is SHE threatening to leave YOU--that is, what does she have on you except for emotional blackmail?
Good luck, and I mean that. I hope you can work it out. For that to happen, though, you're going to have to set out some basic guidelines for preserving your own sanity (and happiness).
posted by torticat at 3:18 PM on December 30, 2010
1) The children's mental and physical health. Does she care? Does she just feel overwhelmed by it all? Why is she not taking proper care of her kids?
(Note: make a distinction between the problems that are serious and those that are not. An 11-year-old wetting the bed should be addressed. A six-year-old not reading is not the end of the world; someone needs to talk to the child's teacher and find out if there is reason for concern. Lots of kids don't read until later than this. The kids' lying and hiding things from you is serious.)
2) The finances. Why not ask her to keep track of her spending, and to share that information with you? If you are paying all the bills, yet she has an income, this is not too much to ask. Some people are really, really bad with money. That doesn't automatically make them bad people, but they DO need to acknowledge the weakness and figure out how to make themselves accountable.
3) Your relationship. If you're not comfortable with the contact she's having with other men (and it doesn't sound like you're a particularly jealous guy, just a harried one), then explain your needs to her. Ask if she can live with cutting off contact with these shady characters.
Finally, if she is truly unwilling to work with you on these three critical matters, then it's over. I do not at all understand why the ultimatums have all been coming from her? Why is SHE threatening to leave YOU--that is, what does she have on you except for emotional blackmail?
Good luck, and I mean that. I hope you can work it out. For that to happen, though, you're going to have to set out some basic guidelines for preserving your own sanity (and happiness).
posted by torticat at 3:18 PM on December 30, 2010
harh07 -- I don't think you've answered the question which many of us have asked, which is "why haven't you ended things with this woman yet?"
I think a lot of us are wondering why you didn't kick her out when you learned she was still involved with the registered sex offender. Your reluctance MIGHT be understandable if she were destitute (even then, her ass would be gone if I were you) but she is NOT destitute, she has a perfectly livable salary plus generous Social Security benefits. So what is it that leads you to endure this soul-destroying level of indignity to which she is subjecting you?
It is clear that she doesn't respect you and that she is exploiting you -- so why haven't you gotten rid of her?
posted by jayder at 3:31 PM on December 30, 2010 [2 favorites]
I think a lot of us are wondering why you didn't kick her out when you learned she was still involved with the registered sex offender. Your reluctance MIGHT be understandable if she were destitute (even then, her ass would be gone if I were you) but she is NOT destitute, she has a perfectly livable salary plus generous Social Security benefits. So what is it that leads you to endure this soul-destroying level of indignity to which she is subjecting you?
It is clear that she doesn't respect you and that she is exploiting you -- so why haven't you gotten rid of her?
posted by jayder at 3:31 PM on December 30, 2010 [2 favorites]
Please call CPS in your state, now. I really don't know what else to tell you, but if the hygiene problems are what you say they are, and a case worker witnesses it, that will start a chain of events that will help the kids in the long run in ways you can not.
I don't know what will come of your relationship but innocent kids are being hurt here. Call the authorities, please.
posted by slow graffiti at 3:45 PM on December 30, 2010 [2 favorites]
I don't know what will come of your relationship but innocent kids are being hurt here. Call the authorities, please.
posted by slow graffiti at 3:45 PM on December 30, 2010 [2 favorites]
"I made some critical errors of judgement here that I need to avoid in the future."
"jbenben - avoid future train wreck relationships."
How are you going to avoid future train wreck relationships if you're not willing to extricate yourself from this one? Until you kick this awful woman to the curb, this is your future train wreck relationship.
Look, any decision you make that involves staying in a relationship with this woman and allowing her and her kids to remain living in your home is going to be yet another critical error of judgment. There is no magical happy ending we can offer you. Only red flags and warnings. Best of luck to you, it sounds like you're going to need it.
posted by keep it under cover at 4:03 PM on December 30, 2010 [6 favorites]
"jbenben - avoid future train wreck relationships."
How are you going to avoid future train wreck relationships if you're not willing to extricate yourself from this one? Until you kick this awful woman to the curb, this is your future train wreck relationship.
Look, any decision you make that involves staying in a relationship with this woman and allowing her and her kids to remain living in your home is going to be yet another critical error of judgment. There is no magical happy ending we can offer you. Only red flags and warnings. Best of luck to you, it sounds like you're going to need it.
posted by keep it under cover at 4:03 PM on December 30, 2010 [6 favorites]
I think many of us feel terrible for you. What's good in this relationship that keeps you there?
And consider: What if she loses her job? Won't ending this thing, moving her out, be a thousand times more difficult and complicated?
Wow. Good luck.
posted by fivesavagepalms at 4:23 PM on December 30, 2010
And consider: What if she loses her job? Won't ending this thing, moving her out, be a thousand times more difficult and complicated?
Wow. Good luck.
posted by fivesavagepalms at 4:23 PM on December 30, 2010
Don't stay with this woman just because you worry about her kids. I'd worry about her kids, too--heck, I'm worrying about them right now--but you're not actually their stepfather, so you don't have a duty of care to them beyond that of any other adult who knows and understands their situation.
Anything you can do to support them and remind them that not all adults are flakes like their mom is gravy. You didn't create the situation they're in, and you don't have to save them; if they have grandparents who might be usefully protective of them, being in touch with the grandparents and offering them your help might be a way to do something to help the kids in future without continuing to sacrifice yourself.
Where's the money going? If she's not buying things you can see with it (jewelry, clothes, whatever) I will bet you anything it's going for drugs, gambling, or other guys. People don't drive around on bald tires because they're economizing in order to donate to famine relief (or even to pay back bills). You have to end this relationship or you'll keep being a doormat.
Then, with the money you save on not paying her bills for her, you can see a therapist to work on your huge co-dependence issues. (Note: I'm not saying that you have huge co-dependence issues to be cruel; I have been in the same boat myself, my friend.) You need to work on that before you can have a healthy relationship, or you'll keep making the same mistake over and over.
There are so many super-nice women out there; don't stay with this messed-up user just because you're afraid to be lonely for a while. You'll be lonely for a while, you'll work on your issues, and the next relationship will be better!
And seconding everyone who says "End the relationship while she still has the job" because that's fairest to everyone--you, her, the kids. Maybe the challenge of raising the kids on $50K plus the Social Security will be an impetus for her to straighten up and fly right. Or not; maybe the grandparents will have to step in. The thing is that it shouldn't be your problem.
posted by Sidhedevil at 4:58 PM on December 30, 2010 [2 favorites]
Anything you can do to support them and remind them that not all adults are flakes like their mom is gravy. You didn't create the situation they're in, and you don't have to save them; if they have grandparents who might be usefully protective of them, being in touch with the grandparents and offering them your help might be a way to do something to help the kids in future without continuing to sacrifice yourself.
Where's the money going? If she's not buying things you can see with it (jewelry, clothes, whatever) I will bet you anything it's going for drugs, gambling, or other guys. People don't drive around on bald tires because they're economizing in order to donate to famine relief (or even to pay back bills). You have to end this relationship or you'll keep being a doormat.
Then, with the money you save on not paying her bills for her, you can see a therapist to work on your huge co-dependence issues. (Note: I'm not saying that you have huge co-dependence issues to be cruel; I have been in the same boat myself, my friend.) You need to work on that before you can have a healthy relationship, or you'll keep making the same mistake over and over.
There are so many super-nice women out there; don't stay with this messed-up user just because you're afraid to be lonely for a while. You'll be lonely for a while, you'll work on your issues, and the next relationship will be better!
And seconding everyone who says "End the relationship while she still has the job" because that's fairest to everyone--you, her, the kids. Maybe the challenge of raising the kids on $50K plus the Social Security will be an impetus for her to straighten up and fly right. Or not; maybe the grandparents will have to step in. The thing is that it shouldn't be your problem.
posted by Sidhedevil at 4:58 PM on December 30, 2010 [2 favorites]
I agree with everyone else who says you should end this relationship. I understand it's hard because you feel a responsibility to the kids, and perhaps to your girlfriend as well. But ultimately, you stepping in and trying to fix them is possibly what enables the woman to feel she doesn't have to help the kids or solve her money problems herself.
I also want to bring up a few red flags I saw in your post that no one else has mentioned:
"This has driven me insane as she has let at least one of them piss up my couch."
If the kids are having problems not peeing themselves - and this is clearly a medical and/or psychological problem, as you admit - why do you frame this as the mother letting them piss on the couch? Obviously the ultimate fault is hers if she won't take them to a doctor or psychologist, but I worry that you are blaming her directly for the individual instances. How exactly does one MAKE a child hold its bladder?
"I yell about that "
"I had to yell at her last night about mitigating these things (again) so they can’t lie or mess up."
You sound a bit, um, shouty, here. And seriously, you "had to" yell? I can imagine that this whole situation must be INCREDIBLY frustrating, but yelling is not really going to help matters. And again, you seem to be acting as though the mother has more direct control over the kids than I imagine she really does. If the kids are lying and messing up, why do you think yelling at the MOTHER is the solution? Either you yell at the kids for lying (well, tell them off, preferably NOT yelling), or you sit down with the mother and come up with a discipline strategy that she needs to enforce.
"I’ve got a 6 year old that refuses to read"
From the other stuff you have said about the kids, I doubt he/she is "refusing" to read, but probably can't. It sounds like the psychological issues he/she has are interfering with his/her learning abilities, and this is something that isn't going to be dealt with by yelling.
"I blew my stack and finally communicated directly to him to disappear."
This, along with your "yelling at" your girlfriend about the kids' behaviour sounds to me like you are not really treating her as an adult. It would never occur to me to go over my partner's head to tell his/her crush to get lost. If he/she were having an affair, or flirting with someone and I wasn't happy about it, I would be talking to him/her, and if that didn't work, I guess I'd give an ultimatum and eventually kick him/her out. But interfering directly in the other relationship? That sounds as though you aren't treating your girlfriend as an adult capable of making her own decisions. (And for what it's worth, I don't think she is behaving like one either: but that still doesn't mean its a healthy dynamic to have.)
In short, I wonder whether the fucked-up-edness of the whole situation has led to you and your girlfriend interacting in a way that is devoid of respect, paternalistic (on your behalf), and that lumps her and her kids together as a single entity instead of individuals. This is not healthy, and it might not be a dynamic you can reverse at this point.
Another reason to get out of the relationship, or at the very least, put some heavy ultimatums in place, which should at a minimum include getting the kids psychological and medical assistance.
posted by lollusc at 4:59 PM on December 30, 2010 [6 favorites]
I also want to bring up a few red flags I saw in your post that no one else has mentioned:
"This has driven me insane as she has let at least one of them piss up my couch."
If the kids are having problems not peeing themselves - and this is clearly a medical and/or psychological problem, as you admit - why do you frame this as the mother letting them piss on the couch? Obviously the ultimate fault is hers if she won't take them to a doctor or psychologist, but I worry that you are blaming her directly for the individual instances. How exactly does one MAKE a child hold its bladder?
"I yell about that "
"I had to yell at her last night about mitigating these things (again) so they can’t lie or mess up."
You sound a bit, um, shouty, here. And seriously, you "had to" yell? I can imagine that this whole situation must be INCREDIBLY frustrating, but yelling is not really going to help matters. And again, you seem to be acting as though the mother has more direct control over the kids than I imagine she really does. If the kids are lying and messing up, why do you think yelling at the MOTHER is the solution? Either you yell at the kids for lying (well, tell them off, preferably NOT yelling), or you sit down with the mother and come up with a discipline strategy that she needs to enforce.
"I’ve got a 6 year old that refuses to read"
From the other stuff you have said about the kids, I doubt he/she is "refusing" to read, but probably can't. It sounds like the psychological issues he/she has are interfering with his/her learning abilities, and this is something that isn't going to be dealt with by yelling.
"I blew my stack and finally communicated directly to him to disappear."
This, along with your "yelling at" your girlfriend about the kids' behaviour sounds to me like you are not really treating her as an adult. It would never occur to me to go over my partner's head to tell his/her crush to get lost. If he/she were having an affair, or flirting with someone and I wasn't happy about it, I would be talking to him/her, and if that didn't work, I guess I'd give an ultimatum and eventually kick him/her out. But interfering directly in the other relationship? That sounds as though you aren't treating your girlfriend as an adult capable of making her own decisions. (And for what it's worth, I don't think she is behaving like one either: but that still doesn't mean its a healthy dynamic to have.)
In short, I wonder whether the fucked-up-edness of the whole situation has led to you and your girlfriend interacting in a way that is devoid of respect, paternalistic (on your behalf), and that lumps her and her kids together as a single entity instead of individuals. This is not healthy, and it might not be a dynamic you can reverse at this point.
Another reason to get out of the relationship, or at the very least, put some heavy ultimatums in place, which should at a minimum include getting the kids psychological and medical assistance.
posted by lollusc at 4:59 PM on December 30, 2010 [6 favorites]
And yeah, as everyone has said, every day you stay in this relationship is a critical error of judgment and another day of train wreck. Dig yourself out of this disaster first, and then you can start looking at what to do better next time.
posted by Sidhedevil at 4:59 PM on December 30, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Sidhedevil at 4:59 PM on December 30, 2010 [1 favorite]
This is a nightmare relationship and needs to end, no doubt. That aside, it might help you in the future if you recognize some of the things you're doing wrong here. You seem to have it in your head that you solve problems by yelling, forcing, making. I yell about that... I had to yell at her... I cut that stuff off early. You're not nurturing a partnership; you're in a war, struggling for dominion. Avoid going to war with your romantic partners, because nobody can win in situations like this.
posted by jon1270 at 5:54 PM on December 30, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by jon1270 at 5:54 PM on December 30, 2010 [1 favorite]
Keep it under cover nailed it with "this is your future train wreck relationship." However, you're not in just one relationship. You are in five relationships.
A lot of folks have focused on leaving your relationship with your girlfriend. Perhaps your concern is partly about the futures of these children. It is not your responsibility to raise the children to adulthood - even though they're living in your house and you are the responsible adult figure in their lives right now. It is your responsibility to do what you can to make sure that people who are in a position to help this family are aware that they need help. It sounds like contacting CPS or a therapist might be good options to consider for the children.
May your future loving, healthy relationship comes as soon as you are ready for it.
Maybe you can friend the kids on Facebook after they move out, and check in with them once every couple weeks or month or so, just so they can continue to have a relationship with you as a role model in their life - should that be appropriate in your situation.
When I was a child, I peed my pants and wet the bed a lot. In fact, I still do, once or twice a year. Now it's still so embarrassing to me that not even my lovers have ever found out as far as I know. My mother used to get angry; she thought I was doing it on purpose. That just made me feel worse about it; I really didn't have good bladder control. Just a small bit of child-sized perspective. It's pretty cool that you're trying to teach them how to handle their problems responsibly, rather than being upset with them for doing it.
posted by lover at 6:58 PM on December 30, 2010
A lot of folks have focused on leaving your relationship with your girlfriend. Perhaps your concern is partly about the futures of these children. It is not your responsibility to raise the children to adulthood - even though they're living in your house and you are the responsible adult figure in their lives right now. It is your responsibility to do what you can to make sure that people who are in a position to help this family are aware that they need help. It sounds like contacting CPS or a therapist might be good options to consider for the children.
May your future loving, healthy relationship comes as soon as you are ready for it.
Maybe you can friend the kids on Facebook after they move out, and check in with them once every couple weeks or month or so, just so they can continue to have a relationship with you as a role model in their life - should that be appropriate in your situation.
When I was a child, I peed my pants and wet the bed a lot. In fact, I still do, once or twice a year. Now it's still so embarrassing to me that not even my lovers have ever found out as far as I know. My mother used to get angry; she thought I was doing it on purpose. That just made me feel worse about it; I really didn't have good bladder control. Just a small bit of child-sized perspective. It's pretty cool that you're trying to teach them how to handle their problems responsibly, rather than being upset with them for doing it.
posted by lover at 6:58 PM on December 30, 2010
I did a search for alternatives to CPS, and here's one link. Their school may also have some advice for you. Have you tried talking to the school?
posted by lover at 7:06 PM on December 30, 2010
posted by lover at 7:06 PM on December 30, 2010
I think you're being used. I think when she lost Mr. Right, she had to settle for Mr. Right Here, Right Now and the resources he could bring to the table. And I can't condemn anyone for that decision, because when you are a parent and the world falls apart, stabilizing it has got to be your first and most pressing concern. Those children NEED you to fix it, not later, not at the opportune moment, RIGHT NOW. But it leaves you in a Hell of a spot, because you've invested in the relationship, when the truth is, being with you was not her primary goal.
Think about about what it must be like when the person you depend on for the roof over your head is abruptly, without warning, GONE. Think about how frightened and completely at sea a woman with no education and little/no job experience would feel when that happens. THINK about the desperation that this would create in anyone, much less someone with four kids looking to her. Think about how screwed up each and every one of us gets when a loved one dies.
She was swimming like Hell in a raging torrent & trying to keep herself and her family from being swept away in the flood. You offered her a place to haul out and regroup. Another set of hands to help, another income to make the problems go away. A dream for the future, and respite for the present.
And now here you are. The princess has been rescued, and grinding reality has set in. And part of that reality is that she is not prepared to run a household, even with your steadying hand. And that re-grouping of family isn't working out so hot either; those kids sound like they're still in the flood. And somehow the ball is in your court because it's your home and, well, there are bills to pay and needs that must be met, and a sense of obligation on your part to her and the kids...
You say, "through all of this she was always tentative about our relationship. She will constantly “break up” with me only to return later".
She needs you & all that you offer. That is why she stays.
You need to recognize your role as a resource. Then analyze from there. Because if she's not going to give as much as she takes from this relationship, she is going to suck you dry and leave your bloodless husk like litter on the side of the road when she moves on. Because, yeah, resources are replaceable in a way that family is not.
posted by Ys at 7:13 PM on December 30, 2010 [1 favorite]
Think about about what it must be like when the person you depend on for the roof over your head is abruptly, without warning, GONE. Think about how frightened and completely at sea a woman with no education and little/no job experience would feel when that happens. THINK about the desperation that this would create in anyone, much less someone with four kids looking to her. Think about how screwed up each and every one of us gets when a loved one dies.
She was swimming like Hell in a raging torrent & trying to keep herself and her family from being swept away in the flood. You offered her a place to haul out and regroup. Another set of hands to help, another income to make the problems go away. A dream for the future, and respite for the present.
And now here you are. The princess has been rescued, and grinding reality has set in. And part of that reality is that she is not prepared to run a household, even with your steadying hand. And that re-grouping of family isn't working out so hot either; those kids sound like they're still in the flood. And somehow the ball is in your court because it's your home and, well, there are bills to pay and needs that must be met, and a sense of obligation on your part to her and the kids...
You say, "through all of this she was always tentative about our relationship. She will constantly “break up” with me only to return later".
She needs you & all that you offer. That is why she stays.
You need to recognize your role as a resource. Then analyze from there. Because if she's not going to give as much as she takes from this relationship, she is going to suck you dry and leave your bloodless husk like litter on the side of the road when she moves on. Because, yeah, resources are replaceable in a way that family is not.
posted by Ys at 7:13 PM on December 30, 2010 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Just want to be clear here. Nobody is in danger of harm. There is no violence, no signs of drugs, or other abuse. I feel used and certainly some will call that abuse. I am responsible for clearing that from my life and I haven't. The bathroom issues:
1. The 11 year old. I am told they went to the Dr. and physically everything is fine. This was several years ago. I was also told that it is only "every so often". That isn't true. It is at least a couple times a week. He does try to hide it but sometimes doesn't shower and this I think causes that smell on the furniture and their bedroom.
2. The six year old is most nights. Hides his diapers but this is happening in spurts. It is not every day but does cause the rooms to smell.
It has gotten "shouty" with her. The kids need to get punished but I have a problem in that there is also a 3 year old. Of course he wets the bed - but wears the exact same pull up so for me it has been hard to figure out who did it (both). The younger one just follows what his older brother does. The frustration level is because we've been over the problem together and as a family 3 or 4 times since summer. Please understand she didn't have ANY structure in place. NO instructions on personal hygenie. Those are things I (attempted to) put in place. I was the one that said we will get them up at night so they can potty and have some dry mornings - taking the pressure off of them. I told her many times we HAVE to have them put the diapers in the same place every day - the same routine. You MUST shower every morning, etc. No caffiene and on and on. None of that was there before me. I am angry because I get a couple weeks out of it and the rules when I'm not home are different. I do think it is her responsibility. She has to take ownership (esp the oldest) and it can't be that I want it more than her. When I put the structure in place - things DID improve. I have seen them get up at night and go. I think the younger two will make it with enough routine in their life. For some reason the 6 year old decided he needed to go back to hiding. I don't understand what his anxiety is yet and his mom is too busy fighting me about and telling me "it's looking like we just have to go". SHE won't check to see what they lie about. She just accepts whatever they say or do. It's weird actually.
Where I've heard of CPS coming in you have kids sitting in trash or being abused. This isn't anything even remotely close to that. Although we have the cavity situation.
Have not and would not raise my voice over the reading situation (not around the kids). The problem is that is dumped on me. I don’t have communication with the teachers. I’ve literally been made aware of this over the past couple months and took the time to sit down with him. He doesn’t get any words and I worry about his eyesight. I went to the 3 year old with the same book and pointed to the first word and he got it right and was VERY happy I would read with him.
I came here to collect my thoughts because I’ve watched other threads all over this site and for some reason there isn’t anything better on the web. I need to rationalize and get myself out of this unhealthy relationship and avoid them in the future. Why have I not done it? Because in the back of my head I look for some way to fix it. I’m somehow not good enough and that drives me to try harder thinking that will get me the friendship I deserve from my girlfriend. She will always find a way to say something that works. I forgive everything and try again. Then she promises to “be better”. You get a week or 2 of effort and the old habits and problems come back. I am either all good – or all bad.
posted by harh07 at 7:36 PM on December 30, 2010
1. The 11 year old. I am told they went to the Dr. and physically everything is fine. This was several years ago. I was also told that it is only "every so often". That isn't true. It is at least a couple times a week. He does try to hide it but sometimes doesn't shower and this I think causes that smell on the furniture and their bedroom.
2. The six year old is most nights. Hides his diapers but this is happening in spurts. It is not every day but does cause the rooms to smell.
It has gotten "shouty" with her. The kids need to get punished but I have a problem in that there is also a 3 year old. Of course he wets the bed - but wears the exact same pull up so for me it has been hard to figure out who did it (both). The younger one just follows what his older brother does. The frustration level is because we've been over the problem together and as a family 3 or 4 times since summer. Please understand she didn't have ANY structure in place. NO instructions on personal hygenie. Those are things I (attempted to) put in place. I was the one that said we will get them up at night so they can potty and have some dry mornings - taking the pressure off of them. I told her many times we HAVE to have them put the diapers in the same place every day - the same routine. You MUST shower every morning, etc. No caffiene and on and on. None of that was there before me. I am angry because I get a couple weeks out of it and the rules when I'm not home are different. I do think it is her responsibility. She has to take ownership (esp the oldest) and it can't be that I want it more than her. When I put the structure in place - things DID improve. I have seen them get up at night and go. I think the younger two will make it with enough routine in their life. For some reason the 6 year old decided he needed to go back to hiding. I don't understand what his anxiety is yet and his mom is too busy fighting me about and telling me "it's looking like we just have to go". SHE won't check to see what they lie about. She just accepts whatever they say or do. It's weird actually.
Where I've heard of CPS coming in you have kids sitting in trash or being abused. This isn't anything even remotely close to that. Although we have the cavity situation.
Have not and would not raise my voice over the reading situation (not around the kids). The problem is that is dumped on me. I don’t have communication with the teachers. I’ve literally been made aware of this over the past couple months and took the time to sit down with him. He doesn’t get any words and I worry about his eyesight. I went to the 3 year old with the same book and pointed to the first word and he got it right and was VERY happy I would read with him.
I came here to collect my thoughts because I’ve watched other threads all over this site and for some reason there isn’t anything better on the web. I need to rationalize and get myself out of this unhealthy relationship and avoid them in the future. Why have I not done it? Because in the back of my head I look for some way to fix it. I’m somehow not good enough and that drives me to try harder thinking that will get me the friendship I deserve from my girlfriend. She will always find a way to say something that works. I forgive everything and try again. Then she promises to “be better”. You get a week or 2 of effort and the old habits and problems come back. I am either all good – or all bad.
posted by harh07 at 7:36 PM on December 30, 2010
Response by poster: lover - my main concern was to take the pressure off of them. they need to live in a routine and be given the opportunity to win. With no structure they see mostly failure. I'm angry at their mom about the sanitary situation throughout the house. That has to be mitigated. Sheets need to get to the washing mashing that morning - just as another example.
Not sure if I can justify yelling with some people. Esp people in healthy relationships but we can only be pushed so far.
posted by harh07 at 7:42 PM on December 30, 2010
Not sure if I can justify yelling with some people. Esp people in healthy relationships but we can only be pushed so far.
posted by harh07 at 7:42 PM on December 30, 2010
Look, I get what lollusc and jon1270 are getting at with the 'yelling' thing. You should examine this, if only to get some traction on the situation. I find when I am in an emotional tizzy that it helps to examine and own every crappy assumption/crazy reaction/unmet-need-lashing-out-blindly-without-using-it's-words I've made/had/fostered.
That said, the thing that struck me about your post is that you are taking the responsiblity for parenting seriously, "dirty diapers in the trash! bed time! do your homework! take a shower! can’t hit your brothers!" (all reasonable and normal parent requests) and you do not seem to be getting any cooperation or back-up from her. I know even in non-blended families parents disagree about styles/boundries, but in a functional relationship the responsible parties sit down and reach a comprimise and establish consistency for the sake of the children.
I get that there was a trauma in her life, but I agree with this commenter that it is not a free pass to fuck around indefinately, especially where dependents are involved. She sounds like she is spun with PTSD that she is not dealing with, and the disappearing money, bald tires, urine-soaked children (wtf???? is this what 'spoiling kids' means these days?), cavities, and hours of fantasy-chat-internet-sexytime while you are away and she should be, oh, you know, focussing on the welfare of her offspring, are symptoms of this. The fact she even entered a relationship with you at all, to me, is also a symptom, another distratction from facing her loss ... I'm not saying you are not worthy of having a relationship with!!! But that the things you listed that are frustrating you paint the portrait of an individual who has clearly 'checked-out.'
You may have thought that shacking up was the next step to a strong future with a partner with whom you can share confidences, finances, responsibilities; but from your description she is acting like it is a wacky sitcom where she can sleep with her sometimes-there landlord, constantly skip out on the rent, ignore her off-spring's present-time needs while feeding them bon-bons of a sugar-coated past they will never regain, and use whatever men she has available to her to nuture her fantasies of a white knight to ride in and fix her bottomless need from this loss she is refusing to address. You are just one of those available guys.
And unless she wakes up and offers to stop wandering around like a sex-zombie and do the hard work to get herself and her children the help they need to move past their traumatic loss, I think all you can do is draw the line and save yourself and your sanity, lawyer up and get her to move out. Hell, even if she does realize she doesn't want to lose a man who seems genuinely concerned for her and her kids, and commits to therapy and giving up chat-friends, no reason she can't do that from her own abode where she doesn't have to give a crap about the boundries and rules you feel make a household and relationship function. Because nothing about your post says she is seeing you as her partner and the future; you're just an imperfect fill-in for the one who isn't coming back.
posted by Rube R. Nekker at 7:47 PM on December 30, 2010 [1 favorite]
That said, the thing that struck me about your post is that you are taking the responsiblity for parenting seriously, "dirty diapers in the trash! bed time! do your homework! take a shower! can’t hit your brothers!" (all reasonable and normal parent requests) and you do not seem to be getting any cooperation or back-up from her. I know even in non-blended families parents disagree about styles/boundries, but in a functional relationship the responsible parties sit down and reach a comprimise and establish consistency for the sake of the children.
I get that there was a trauma in her life, but I agree with this commenter that it is not a free pass to fuck around indefinately, especially where dependents are involved. She sounds like she is spun with PTSD that she is not dealing with, and the disappearing money, bald tires, urine-soaked children (wtf???? is this what 'spoiling kids' means these days?), cavities, and hours of fantasy-chat-internet-sexytime while you are away and she should be, oh, you know, focussing on the welfare of her offspring, are symptoms of this. The fact she even entered a relationship with you at all, to me, is also a symptom, another distratction from facing her loss ... I'm not saying you are not worthy of having a relationship with!!! But that the things you listed that are frustrating you paint the portrait of an individual who has clearly 'checked-out.'
You may have thought that shacking up was the next step to a strong future with a partner with whom you can share confidences, finances, responsibilities; but from your description she is acting like it is a wacky sitcom where she can sleep with her sometimes-there landlord, constantly skip out on the rent, ignore her off-spring's present-time needs while feeding them bon-bons of a sugar-coated past they will never regain, and use whatever men she has available to her to nuture her fantasies of a white knight to ride in and fix her bottomless need from this loss she is refusing to address. You are just one of those available guys.
And unless she wakes up and offers to stop wandering around like a sex-zombie and do the hard work to get herself and her children the help they need to move past their traumatic loss, I think all you can do is draw the line and save yourself and your sanity, lawyer up and get her to move out. Hell, even if she does realize she doesn't want to lose a man who seems genuinely concerned for her and her kids, and commits to therapy and giving up chat-friends, no reason she can't do that from her own abode where she doesn't have to give a crap about the boundries and rules you feel make a household and relationship function. Because nothing about your post says she is seeing you as her partner and the future; you're just an imperfect fill-in for the one who isn't coming back.
posted by Rube R. Nekker at 7:47 PM on December 30, 2010 [1 favorite]
"I’m somehow not good enough and that drives me to try harder thinking that will get me the friendship I deserve from my girlfriend. She will always find a way to say something that works. I forgive everything and try again. "
It sounds like you're stuck going around in circles. If you talk to a therapist and tell them the whole thing, they can help you break out of these patterns and brainstorm some real strategies for getting out of this.
posted by amethysts at 7:49 PM on December 30, 2010
It sounds like you're stuck going around in circles. If you talk to a therapist and tell them the whole thing, they can help you break out of these patterns and brainstorm some real strategies for getting out of this.
posted by amethysts at 7:49 PM on December 30, 2010
CPS is not just for kids who are in immediate danger of physical harm.
Look, you do not get how badly in over your head you are. PLEASE PLEASE get a professional in there for the kids because if you don't, then the only hope especially for the oldest, is that a teacher notices the problem and intervenes. The sooner that kid gets help, the more hope he has for a normal adolescence. How many teeth does the kid need to lose to lack of dental care before this becomes abuse in your mind?
I'm really not trying to derail, but you need to call CPS because you can't fix this, you really can't. It won't mean that the kids will automatically get taken away; that sounds unlikely in this case, but it would be a wake up to her and it will give you both access to resources for becoming a more functional family unit if you're determined to stay together. But no matter what way your relationship turns out, these kids desperately need third party adult intervention.
posted by slow graffiti at 8:20 PM on December 30, 2010 [7 favorites]
Look, you do not get how badly in over your head you are. PLEASE PLEASE get a professional in there for the kids because if you don't, then the only hope especially for the oldest, is that a teacher notices the problem and intervenes. The sooner that kid gets help, the more hope he has for a normal adolescence. How many teeth does the kid need to lose to lack of dental care before this becomes abuse in your mind?
I'm really not trying to derail, but you need to call CPS because you can't fix this, you really can't. It won't mean that the kids will automatically get taken away; that sounds unlikely in this case, but it would be a wake up to her and it will give you both access to resources for becoming a more functional family unit if you're determined to stay together. But no matter what way your relationship turns out, these kids desperately need third party adult intervention.
posted by slow graffiti at 8:20 PM on December 30, 2010 [7 favorites]
You are right to be fighting for regularity, routine, structure and hygiene in their lives. Keep up the good fight. Remember, as annoying as non-participation may be, you can establish these beachheads of normalcy in their lives, regardless of Mom's willingness to lift a finger.
About the peeing:
I remember when I was very little & would wet the bed. It was a huge ordeal: Yelling, spanking, dumped into the shower, sheets everywhere. It's still vivid in my mind's eye, and wonder if your kids get the same horrible sense of "OMG I've done something AWFUL!" that I did whenever they have an accident. I'm not an expert on peeing, but here's what we do at my house when there's peeing in inappropriate places: Maybe these kids would be more responsive to this kind of approach.
First, pee in the wrong place is an "oops!" not a "bad." Because oopses are fixable, right? If it's just an oops, that means maybe next time we can do better.
From there, the focus is on fixing the oops. Pee in the bed? Oops! Let's get the sheets off. Do you remember where we put them? That's right, in the tub.* OK, now get on the toilet & see if you have any more. Next we get the baking powder out & sprinkle it to neutralize the acid & kill the smell. Later I vacuum it up.
Am I annoyed? Well, yeah. But she's already upset at having messed the bed/floor/couch; me getting fussed up too doesn't really help. And I think the act of cleaning it up with me makes the whole business, well, less of an ordeal for both of us. Plus I'm teaching her a valuable life skill: Messes aren't just something that happen, they're something that demands action. We've been doing the same thing with spills since she could hold a towel, and I take so much pride when I see her tearing off to go get a napkin... I don't know. YMMV, but it's something to think about.
*We hand-wash peepee accidents: Soap & water in the bottom of the tub & stomp-stomp-stomp while we take our morning shower, then they get hung up to dry. My kid actually enjoys the stomping part, & it kept the laundry situation under control when she was toilet training.]
posted by Ys at 10:43 PM on December 30, 2010 [1 favorite]
About the peeing:
I remember when I was very little & would wet the bed. It was a huge ordeal: Yelling, spanking, dumped into the shower, sheets everywhere. It's still vivid in my mind's eye, and wonder if your kids get the same horrible sense of "OMG I've done something AWFUL!" that I did whenever they have an accident. I'm not an expert on peeing, but here's what we do at my house when there's peeing in inappropriate places: Maybe these kids would be more responsive to this kind of approach.
First, pee in the wrong place is an "oops!" not a "bad." Because oopses are fixable, right? If it's just an oops, that means maybe next time we can do better.
From there, the focus is on fixing the oops. Pee in the bed? Oops! Let's get the sheets off. Do you remember where we put them? That's right, in the tub.* OK, now get on the toilet & see if you have any more. Next we get the baking powder out & sprinkle it to neutralize the acid & kill the smell. Later I vacuum it up.
Am I annoyed? Well, yeah. But she's already upset at having messed the bed/floor/couch; me getting fussed up too doesn't really help. And I think the act of cleaning it up with me makes the whole business, well, less of an ordeal for both of us. Plus I'm teaching her a valuable life skill: Messes aren't just something that happen, they're something that demands action. We've been doing the same thing with spills since she could hold a towel, and I take so much pride when I see her tearing off to go get a napkin... I don't know. YMMV, but it's something to think about.
*We hand-wash peepee accidents: Soap & water in the bottom of the tub & stomp-stomp-stomp while we take our morning shower, then they get hung up to dry. My kid actually enjoys the stomping part, & it kept the laundry situation under control when she was toilet training.]
posted by Ys at 10:43 PM on December 30, 2010 [1 favorite]
As long as all it takes on her part is enduring a little yelling now and then, this woman can continue to refuse to grow up and refuse to be responsible for herself and her children. These kids need some serious help and it sounds like their mother has simply abdicated her responsibility for their hygiene, education, therapy, grieving, healing, nurturing, whatever. Whatever she's doing with her money, she seems very irresponsible. Lying the way she has really should be seen as a deal-breaker.
She won't change and the kids won't get better as long as you're their safety net and I cannot join the chorus loudly enough saying, get her out of there. You're enabling her fantasy that she's some tragic romantic figure of whom nothing should be expected and meanwhile, your house and your life are being trashed. Get free of this before the cops start bringing the kids home or you are frantically trying to find runaways or bailing somebody out of jail.
You have no authority and without authority, the idea you can be responsible is ludicrous. I can't stress strongly enough, cut these ties. Reestablish contact with the children later, if you must, or privately arrange for therapy or tutoring for them if you wish, but get them and their mother and the responsibility for them and their mother out of your life.
posted by Anitanola at 12:20 AM on December 31, 2010 [3 favorites]
She won't change and the kids won't get better as long as you're their safety net and I cannot join the chorus loudly enough saying, get her out of there. You're enabling her fantasy that she's some tragic romantic figure of whom nothing should be expected and meanwhile, your house and your life are being trashed. Get free of this before the cops start bringing the kids home or you are frantically trying to find runaways or bailing somebody out of jail.
You have no authority and without authority, the idea you can be responsible is ludicrous. I can't stress strongly enough, cut these ties. Reestablish contact with the children later, if you must, or privately arrange for therapy or tutoring for them if you wish, but get them and their mother and the responsibility for them and their mother out of your life.
posted by Anitanola at 12:20 AM on December 31, 2010 [3 favorites]
Not sure if I can justify yelling with some people.
Look, I've lived through the very yelly, fighty relationship. Justification is not the issue. You're frustrated and frequently angry, and those feelings make perfect sense. The problem with yelling, as a behavioral response to your frustration and anger, is that IT DOESN'T WORK. The more often you yell, the more predictable it seems and the more closed off other people become to what you have to say, leading you to yell even louder or otherwise escalate to "get their attention" again.
A friend of mine once told me about a confrontation he'd had with his first wife as their marriage (complete with infidelity and troubled kids from wife's previous marriage) was falling apart. He got so unhinged that he first brandished an automatic rifle, then sprayed bullets at the ground before her feet, right there in their semi-suburban driveway. That didn't "get her attention" either.
The elevated emotional state that typically goes with yelling is not conducive to any sort of clear thinking or empathy. Your judgment is poor in these situations because you're in fight-or-flight mode, acting like a frightened lizard that can talk. To the extent that you're successful in scaring the target of your yelling, you switch them into fight-or-flight mode too, so nobody can think straight. When you are so upset as to be yelling, the more advanced parts of your brain -- the ones that could actually help you address your problems constructively -- have stepped outside for a smoke.
posted by jon1270 at 1:47 AM on December 31, 2010 [2 favorites]
Look, I've lived through the very yelly, fighty relationship. Justification is not the issue. You're frustrated and frequently angry, and those feelings make perfect sense. The problem with yelling, as a behavioral response to your frustration and anger, is that IT DOESN'T WORK. The more often you yell, the more predictable it seems and the more closed off other people become to what you have to say, leading you to yell even louder or otherwise escalate to "get their attention" again.
A friend of mine once told me about a confrontation he'd had with his first wife as their marriage (complete with infidelity and troubled kids from wife's previous marriage) was falling apart. He got so unhinged that he first brandished an automatic rifle, then sprayed bullets at the ground before her feet, right there in their semi-suburban driveway. That didn't "get her attention" either.
The elevated emotional state that typically goes with yelling is not conducive to any sort of clear thinking or empathy. Your judgment is poor in these situations because you're in fight-or-flight mode, acting like a frightened lizard that can talk. To the extent that you're successful in scaring the target of your yelling, you switch them into fight-or-flight mode too, so nobody can think straight. When you are so upset as to be yelling, the more advanced parts of your brain -- the ones that could actually help you address your problems constructively -- have stepped outside for a smoke.
posted by jon1270 at 1:47 AM on December 31, 2010 [2 favorites]
So much good advice here, but I need to add: You are in a crisis situation, despite your claim that things aren't so bad and that no one is in danger. You sound VERY distracted and fragmented in your thinking (for example, do you really need to worry about repeating mistakes in future relationships right now? Seems to me you have much more immediate concerns). That level of distraction is NORMAL because you are under a BLINDING amount of stress and pressure. But please be careful! When you are this anxious and distracted, your immune system is compromised, your reflexes altered, your judgment clouds. Be careful driving, working with tools, drinking, crossing the street. Seriously. You need to take care of yourself physically right now so that you can be strong in your resolve to do what is right for the kids you obviously care about. You already know (and have heard from almost everyone here) that "right" means moving them out so you can calm down and think straight.
posted by thinkpiece at 9:14 AM on December 31, 2010 [5 favorites]
posted by thinkpiece at 9:14 AM on December 31, 2010 [5 favorites]
I need to rationalize and get myself out of this unhealthy relationship and avoid them in the future. Why have I not done it? Because in the back of my head I look for some way to fix it. I’m somehow not good enough and that drives me to try harder thinking that will get me the friendship I deserve from my girlfriend. She will always find a way to say something that works. I forgive everything and try again. Then she promises to “be better”. You get a week or 2 of effort and the old habits and problems come back. I am either all good – or all bad.
My friend, you are like an illustration from a textbook on codependence right here. Please, please read Facing Co-Dependence by Mellody, Miller, and Miller. It will quite literally save your life.
You're being a good friend to those kids. That's all you can do for them. Remember how, when you're on the plane, they say "put the oxygen mask on your own face before helping a child?" You need to do that here.
posted by Sidhedevil at 9:55 AM on December 31, 2010
My friend, you are like an illustration from a textbook on codependence right here. Please, please read Facing Co-Dependence by Mellody, Miller, and Miller. It will quite literally save your life.
You're being a good friend to those kids. That's all you can do for them. Remember how, when you're on the plane, they say "put the oxygen mask on your own face before helping a child?" You need to do that here.
posted by Sidhedevil at 9:55 AM on December 31, 2010
for example, do you really need to worry about repeating mistakes in future relationships right now? Seems to me you have much more immediate concerns
Yes, focusing on "avoiding this in the future" under these circumstances is kind of like asking, when your car is about to careen off of a cliff, "Let's talk about how I can keep this from happening in the future."
This is a very sad, awful situation.
posted by jayder at 10:15 AM on December 31, 2010
Yes, focusing on "avoiding this in the future" under these circumstances is kind of like asking, when your car is about to careen off of a cliff, "Let's talk about how I can keep this from happening in the future."
This is a very sad, awful situation.
posted by jayder at 10:15 AM on December 31, 2010
harh07:
The reason your girlfriend is neglecting her children, not paying her bills, taking up weird and sketchy "flirtations" with sex offenders -- generally, not solving any of her problems or any of the problems in your relationship -- is because that is what she *wants* to do.
How can it be that someone would just not WANT to solve these problems? It's easy to think that maybe she just hasn't figured out how, or isn't capable yet, or there's something else in the way? That would make more sense, but I don't think that's it. I think she just doesn't want to. And you can't force anyone to solve a problem they don't want to solve.
You on the other hand, sound like a problem-fixer (which is a good thing!). As well as a great, loving, caring, and generous person.
As jon1270 said, you seem to try to solve problems, or at least these problems, by "forcing, making." It must be extremely frustrating to you that forcing and making isn't working at all. Thing is, again, you can't solve other people's problems that they don't want to solve. You can lead a horse to water but can't make him drink, etc.
It might be worthwhile for you to go to see a counselor or therapist and ask about codependency, or read some of the books about codependency mentioned upthread -- especially if you identify with some of the points in this list below. (This list was written by Melody Beattie, the author of Codependent No More.)
The reason your girlfriend is neglecting her children, not paying her bills, taking up weird and sketchy "flirtations" with sex offenders -- generally, not solving any of her problems or any of the problems in your relationship -- is because that is what she *wants* to do.
How can it be that someone would just not WANT to solve these problems? It's easy to think that maybe she just hasn't figured out how, or isn't capable yet, or there's something else in the way? That would make more sense, but I don't think that's it. I think she just doesn't want to. And you can't force anyone to solve a problem they don't want to solve.
You on the other hand, sound like a problem-fixer (which is a good thing!). As well as a great, loving, caring, and generous person.
As jon1270 said, you seem to try to solve problems, or at least these problems, by "forcing, making." It must be extremely frustrating to you that forcing and making isn't working at all. Thing is, again, you can't solve other people's problems that they don't want to solve. You can lead a horse to water but can't make him drink, etc.
It might be worthwhile for you to go to see a counselor or therapist and ask about codependency, or read some of the books about codependency mentioned upthread -- especially if you identify with some of the points in this list below. (This list was written by Melody Beattie, the author of Codependent No More.)
Do you feel responsible for other people--their feelings, thoughts, actions, choices, wants, needs, well-being and destiny?posted by Ashley801 at 3:22 PM on December 31, 2010 [1 favorite]
Do you feel compelled to help people solve their problems or by trying to take care of their feelings?
Do you find it easier to feel and express anger about injustices done to others than about injustices done to you?
Do you feel safest and most comfortable when you are giving to others?
Do you feel insecure and guilty when someone gives to you?
Do you feel empty, bored and worthless if you don't have someone else to take care of, a problem to solve, or a crisis to deal with?
Are you often unable to stop talking, thinking and worrying about other people and their problems?
Do you lose interest in your own life when you are in love?
Do you stay in relationships that don't work and tolerate abuse in order to keep people loving you?
Do you leave bad relationships only to form new ones that don't work, either?
harh07, what is the situation with her extended family? Have you met or spoken with the children's maternal and paternal grandparents, or any other members of the family? Or has she kept them quite separate from you?
Usually it would be normal for members of the family to be very involved with these kids after such a loss and trauma. Are they significantly present, or not? And if not, can you discern why not?
The money situation is troubling because unless she is throwing everything into the kids' college funds (which really doesn't seem likely), it sounds like maybe she is supporting someone else with her and (to the degree that you support them) your money. In other words, there's a good chance that *you* are enabling the support of some guy like Mr. Molester or whatever the hell he is, which is pretty much the exact opposite of what you were hoping to achieve.
It seems to me that you don't actually have a good idea of what's really going on at all. If you haven't spoken to the family, it's time to do so. If they aren't aware that kids have emotional/learning/other problems that aren't being properly addressed, they need to know. If they are in danger of being exposed (or more likely are being exposed) to sketchy characters this needs to stop, and they need to help make it stop. I hope that the problems the kids are having are only related to the loss of their father and the major flaking out of their mother, but I worry that they are being made to keep secrets about activity that occurs while you are gone, or other stressors that you don't know about.
You definitely need to extricate yourself from this woman because whatever she is doing or trying to do, it's not about having a good-faith relationship with you ... and I hope you can find help and resources within the family and/or the school system and social services regarding the children, because it seems that at the very least she is also not prioritizing them either — and there is even some chance that she is actively endangering them.
Also, do the obvious and get tested for STDs, and be careful. And take care of yourself, as thinkpiece advises. Good luck!
posted by taz at 11:06 PM on December 31, 2010 [3 favorites]
Usually it would be normal for members of the family to be very involved with these kids after such a loss and trauma. Are they significantly present, or not? And if not, can you discern why not?
The money situation is troubling because unless she is throwing everything into the kids' college funds (which really doesn't seem likely), it sounds like maybe she is supporting someone else with her and (to the degree that you support them) your money. In other words, there's a good chance that *you* are enabling the support of some guy like Mr. Molester or whatever the hell he is, which is pretty much the exact opposite of what you were hoping to achieve.
It seems to me that you don't actually have a good idea of what's really going on at all. If you haven't spoken to the family, it's time to do so. If they aren't aware that kids have emotional/learning/other problems that aren't being properly addressed, they need to know. If they are in danger of being exposed (or more likely are being exposed) to sketchy characters this needs to stop, and they need to help make it stop. I hope that the problems the kids are having are only related to the loss of their father and the major flaking out of their mother, but I worry that they are being made to keep secrets about activity that occurs while you are gone, or other stressors that you don't know about.
You definitely need to extricate yourself from this woman because whatever she is doing or trying to do, it's not about having a good-faith relationship with you ... and I hope you can find help and resources within the family and/or the school system and social services regarding the children, because it seems that at the very least she is also not prioritizing them either — and there is even some chance that she is actively endangering them.
Also, do the obvious and get tested for STDs, and be careful. And take care of yourself, as thinkpiece advises. Good luck!
posted by taz at 11:06 PM on December 31, 2010 [3 favorites]
a couple more thoughts:
1) with regard to the sexting/sketchy facebook-voicechat friends: you really have no way of knowing if your girlfriend was like this with the father of the children, do you?
it is depressingly common in our age that a woman will want kids! want kids! and do what she must to get them (marriage! commitment!). once she has them, yuck! now she wants the ego-stoking and thrills of courtship back! and feels entitled to pursue them, regardless of the effect on SO or children. in roll the lies: ommission, white, and bold-ass; and in roll the infidelities: emotional and physical.
"I confronted her about cheating and was satisfied with her answer relative to any kind of sex."
yes, but you and i both feel there is something off about this behavior. when relationships escalate to cohabitation there is an implicit indication a choice has been made, and playing the field is over. i am of the belief that the same drive that manifests its-self as internet porn and hook-ups in men manifests as cyber friendships and flirty-chat interactions in women. and her pattern of behavior could be older than her relationship with you, so if you were in any way believing that you weren't man enough to fill the relationship shoes, please stop.
2) i am going to add a double-plus-+-PLUS to contacting CPS. and asking your lawyer about making a legal statement/documentation with regard to your experiences since these children have moved under your roof. and getting this askMe thread notarized and archived in a kryptonite vault.
your 2+ years of relationship have been filled with drama. the separation process, should it come to that, will also be filled with drama. it is also depressingly common that 'helping little kiddo get cleaned up after a peeing accident' becomes 'omg boyfriend touched my tot inappropriately!!!' when hurt and vengeful feelings come into play. a woman who is already equivocating and waving big red flags of denial will have no problem making criminal charges come about and finding other parties to support her. it would greatly help to have evidence in hand that such charges are retaliatory in nature.
i am so so sorry to be airing such dark thoughts about the worst motivations of woman and man in these first moments of our bright new year. you did say you wanted to rationalize, and the rational approach says: put your feelings aside a moment. list the worst that has happened, is happening, and could happen. form a contingency plan.
also, please: log out; wipe your cookies, histories, bookmarks; do not use shared computers or leave yours where she can access; think about whether your mefi handle is anon enough or whether you want to ask the mods for help. your life seems to hang in the balance of this poker game: you do not want to tip your hand.
my crazy rhetoric aside, i truly hope everyone involved, but especially you, can get the help they need, move on, and thrive.
posted by Rube R. Nekker at 1:27 PM on January 1, 2011 [5 favorites]
1) with regard to the sexting/sketchy facebook-voicechat friends: you really have no way of knowing if your girlfriend was like this with the father of the children, do you?
it is depressingly common in our age that a woman will want kids! want kids! and do what she must to get them (marriage! commitment!). once she has them, yuck! now she wants the ego-stoking and thrills of courtship back! and feels entitled to pursue them, regardless of the effect on SO or children. in roll the lies: ommission, white, and bold-ass; and in roll the infidelities: emotional and physical.
"I confronted her about cheating and was satisfied with her answer relative to any kind of sex."
yes, but you and i both feel there is something off about this behavior. when relationships escalate to cohabitation there is an implicit indication a choice has been made, and playing the field is over. i am of the belief that the same drive that manifests its-self as internet porn and hook-ups in men manifests as cyber friendships and flirty-chat interactions in women. and her pattern of behavior could be older than her relationship with you, so if you were in any way believing that you weren't man enough to fill the relationship shoes, please stop.
2) i am going to add a double-plus-+-PLUS to contacting CPS. and asking your lawyer about making a legal statement/documentation with regard to your experiences since these children have moved under your roof. and getting this askMe thread notarized and archived in a kryptonite vault.
your 2+ years of relationship have been filled with drama. the separation process, should it come to that, will also be filled with drama. it is also depressingly common that 'helping little kiddo get cleaned up after a peeing accident' becomes 'omg boyfriend touched my tot inappropriately!!!' when hurt and vengeful feelings come into play. a woman who is already equivocating and waving big red flags of denial will have no problem making criminal charges come about and finding other parties to support her. it would greatly help to have evidence in hand that such charges are retaliatory in nature.
i am so so sorry to be airing such dark thoughts about the worst motivations of woman and man in these first moments of our bright new year. you did say you wanted to rationalize, and the rational approach says: put your feelings aside a moment. list the worst that has happened, is happening, and could happen. form a contingency plan.
also, please: log out; wipe your cookies, histories, bookmarks; do not use shared computers or leave yours where she can access; think about whether your mefi handle is anon enough or whether you want to ask the mods for help. your life seems to hang in the balance of this poker game: you do not want to tip your hand.
my crazy rhetoric aside, i truly hope everyone involved, but especially you, can get the help they need, move on, and thrive.
posted by Rube R. Nekker at 1:27 PM on January 1, 2011 [5 favorites]
The money situation is troubling because unless she is throwing everything into the kids' college funds (which really doesn't seem likely), it sounds like maybe she is supporting ... Mr. Molester ....
This seems quite probable.
posted by jayder at 3:56 PM on January 2, 2011
This seems quite probable.
posted by jayder at 3:56 PM on January 2, 2011
Response by poster: taz - yes i have met her mom and sisters. Only for Thanksgiving. The only think I've noticed that bothers me is her mom wants her to move in to her (her mom's) old house (it wont sell) and gives her the "if you loved me you would move her routine".
Ashley801 - I will be getting some counseling....not familiar with the term but can see myself in that list. My healthcare provides this. Going by myself.
posted by harh07 at 7:49 PM on January 3, 2011
Ashley801 - I will be getting some counseling....not familiar with the term but can see myself in that list. My healthcare provides this. Going by myself.
posted by harh07 at 7:49 PM on January 3, 2011
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She takes this personally. Everything is black and white and she threatens me with moving out ALL THE TIME – holding it over my head.
Amazing --- she would have the gall threaten you with not allowing you to further support her ... when you're not even enjoying it or getting anything out of it! That's like a Jedi mind trick.
posted by jayder at 11:49 AM on December 30, 2010 [9 favorites]