lsat logic games desperate please help!!!
December 6, 2010 3:48 PM Subscribe
Logic games on LSAT- what is happening???
Ok, so there was a post on this before, but I need more specific help. I've been studying for ages for the logic tests portion of the test. I understand that the Powerscore bible on this topic is supposed to be the best. I have worked through this book 2.5 times. My score has not improved much beyond the initial couple weeks when studying- I can only get half the section. If I had enough time, I could do them all- rather methodically. My score otherwise would be pretty good- I have about a 162 with half the questions in the logic games section wrong, and if I could even increase this to getting 3/4 of the questions write I'd be satisfied. But why, despite so much study, isn't this happening? Everyone else studying extensively with that book seems to do great and advice from everyone seems to be to keep practicing and to use that specific book, but that's not getting me anywhere.
I'm taking the test this Saturday, please help!!!
Ok, so there was a post on this before, but I need more specific help. I've been studying for ages for the logic tests portion of the test. I understand that the Powerscore bible on this topic is supposed to be the best. I have worked through this book 2.5 times. My score has not improved much beyond the initial couple weeks when studying- I can only get half the section. If I had enough time, I could do them all- rather methodically. My score otherwise would be pretty good- I have about a 162 with half the questions in the logic games section wrong, and if I could even increase this to getting 3/4 of the questions write I'd be satisfied. But why, despite so much study, isn't this happening? Everyone else studying extensively with that book seems to do great and advice from everyone seems to be to keep practicing and to use that specific book, but that's not getting me anywhere.
I'm taking the test this Saturday, please help!!!
The PowerScore book helped me a lot, but I still only got about 80% of the logic games questions right. Kaplan and Princeton helped me a bit, too; I started out getting 25% RIGHT.
Have you done practices with the old LSAT logic games sections only, using the techniques from the other books? I did, if I recall correctly, twenty or thirty different retired logic games sections (used book stores for the win.) I don't think you can learn that much the third time through the same questions.
I also agree that it's a little late to be changing your strategies. From what I understand, most law schools are still looking at the highest score you've had, and honestly, 162 isn't terrible. If you blow the logic games on the actual test, take it again. Focus this week on building confidence and relaxing.
posted by SMPA at 4:10 PM on December 6, 2010
Have you done practices with the old LSAT logic games sections only, using the techniques from the other books? I did, if I recall correctly, twenty or thirty different retired logic games sections (used book stores for the win.) I don't think you can learn that much the third time through the same questions.
I also agree that it's a little late to be changing your strategies. From what I understand, most law schools are still looking at the highest score you've had, and honestly, 162 isn't terrible. If you blow the logic games on the actual test, take it again. Focus this week on building confidence and relaxing.
posted by SMPA at 4:10 PM on December 6, 2010
I agree with the first comment. I found the official tests the most useful. But Powerscore gives you actual tests, right? So I don't know if it's necessary to buy one of LSAC's official books.
Make sure you have a consistent system for notating the facts you know about each fact-pattern. It doesn't matter what notation you use, as long as you understand it and you're spending as little time as possible writing them down.
Be meticulous in writing down not just the facts they give you but also everything you can infer from those. For instance, if A can never go with B, and B always goes with C, also write down that A can never go with C.
In the end, I largely used a lot of trial and error. I remember thinking — before I got good at logic games — that it just couldn't be that simple. But it kind of is.
Based on glancing at Amazon's preview of the Powerscore Bible just now (specifically the chapter on "Grouping" games), it seems like they spend an inordinate amount of time analyzing and classifying the different types of problems and moves in painstaking detail. From your post, it sounds like you basically grasp the logic of how these games work and you're mainly worried about time. So I would recommend not dwelling on their explanations and just spend the last few days doing as many questions as possible to become more efficient.
I studied with someone who took a course where they taught him a bunch of tricks, e.g. reorder the questions based on what type of questions they are. As Neekee says, that kind of thing mainly slows you down. They had convinced him that he needed to use their tricks. (The companies have to claim that they possess privileged knowledge that will unlock the test for you; this is how they make money.) My friend scored around the 50th percentile, and I was in the 98th. I was very glad that I studied from the official tests and focused on applying my own reasoning rather than looking to a company for tricks.
Finally: from your post, you sound a bit panicky. Even if your skills aren't perfect by test day, make sure you have a positive attitude, keep your cool, and don't panic. If you realize after taking the test that you could do better, have the presence of mind to cancel your score on the spot (unless you need the results from this test to start law school next year).
posted by John Cohen at 4:27 PM on December 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
Make sure you have a consistent system for notating the facts you know about each fact-pattern. It doesn't matter what notation you use, as long as you understand it and you're spending as little time as possible writing them down.
Be meticulous in writing down not just the facts they give you but also everything you can infer from those. For instance, if A can never go with B, and B always goes with C, also write down that A can never go with C.
In the end, I largely used a lot of trial and error. I remember thinking — before I got good at logic games — that it just couldn't be that simple. But it kind of is.
Based on glancing at Amazon's preview of the Powerscore Bible just now (specifically the chapter on "Grouping" games), it seems like they spend an inordinate amount of time analyzing and classifying the different types of problems and moves in painstaking detail. From your post, it sounds like you basically grasp the logic of how these games work and you're mainly worried about time. So I would recommend not dwelling on their explanations and just spend the last few days doing as many questions as possible to become more efficient.
I studied with someone who took a course where they taught him a bunch of tricks, e.g. reorder the questions based on what type of questions they are. As Neekee says, that kind of thing mainly slows you down. They had convinced him that he needed to use their tricks. (The companies have to claim that they possess privileged knowledge that will unlock the test for you; this is how they make money.) My friend scored around the 50th percentile, and I was in the 98th. I was very glad that I studied from the official tests and focused on applying my own reasoning rather than looking to a company for tricks.
Finally: from your post, you sound a bit panicky. Even if your skills aren't perfect by test day, make sure you have a positive attitude, keep your cool, and don't panic. If you realize after taking the test that you could do better, have the presence of mind to cancel your score on the spot (unless you need the results from this test to start law school next year).
posted by John Cohen at 4:27 PM on December 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
It's been almost ten years since I took the LSAT. I did reasonably well but didn't study.
I've been a lawyer now for seven years, and have taught bar review courses to law grads taking the California bar exam. I think there are two things you might find profitable. You need to make sure you're properly reviewing your work. You also need to minimize your stress level before you go into the test.
First, take the old tests you took (if you have that ability) and discard (or disregard) all of the ones you got right. If you've done them multiple times, with luck you're making the same mistakes every time. Now look at whatever solution and explanation you have and focus on figuring out which mistake(s) you're making. This is what you would do on the bar exam as well - it's not as important to understand how you got an answer right as it is to understand where you're going wrong.
Keep in mind that if these are not actual LSAT tests released by LSAC. Some may be harder, while some may be less difficult. (To my knowledge, no one has a license to republish their tests, which you can get online.) Realize that your performance on pseudo-LSAT practice materials generated by someone other than LSAC may or may not be of useful predictive value.
Second, I would also consider taking some time off immediately before the test to unwind. Stress will definitely hurt you. Reduce stress by getting your test kit (pencils, clear plastic baggie, etc.) set up before the test.
I took the LSAT to show solidarity with a girlfriend who was scared to take it but I had no plan to go to law school. This meant I had zero stress. I can only equate your stress to how I felt about a bar exam that lasted three full days. I did not study at all on the two days immediately preceding the bar exam, and only reviewed some materials lightly (no practice, just review) the day before my stress-reducing hiatus. This worked well for me. You might not need so long to decompress, but you do need to make sure you go into the test relaxed.
Good luck with the test!
posted by Hylas at 4:36 PM on December 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
I've been a lawyer now for seven years, and have taught bar review courses to law grads taking the California bar exam. I think there are two things you might find profitable. You need to make sure you're properly reviewing your work. You also need to minimize your stress level before you go into the test.
First, take the old tests you took (if you have that ability) and discard (or disregard) all of the ones you got right. If you've done them multiple times, with luck you're making the same mistakes every time. Now look at whatever solution and explanation you have and focus on figuring out which mistake(s) you're making. This is what you would do on the bar exam as well - it's not as important to understand how you got an answer right as it is to understand where you're going wrong.
Keep in mind that if these are not actual LSAT tests released by LSAC. Some may be harder, while some may be less difficult. (To my knowledge, no one has a license to republish their tests, which you can get online.) Realize that your performance on pseudo-LSAT practice materials generated by someone other than LSAC may or may not be of useful predictive value.
Second, I would also consider taking some time off immediately before the test to unwind. Stress will definitely hurt you. Reduce stress by getting your test kit (pencils, clear plastic baggie, etc.) set up before the test.
I took the LSAT to show solidarity with a girlfriend who was scared to take it but I had no plan to go to law school. This meant I had zero stress. I can only equate your stress to how I felt about a bar exam that lasted three full days. I did not study at all on the two days immediately preceding the bar exam, and only reviewed some materials lightly (no practice, just review) the day before my stress-reducing hiatus. This worked well for me. You might not need so long to decompress, but you do need to make sure you go into the test relaxed.
Good luck with the test!
posted by Hylas at 4:36 PM on December 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
The only book that helped me "get" logic games was the official LSAT Superprep. I'd tried Kaplan (and some other one, not Powerscore, though). My practice scores (and actual score) went up like 10 points, no lie. YMMV. No matter what, only take practice tests that are actual old LSATs.
posted by elpea at 4:39 PM on December 6, 2010
posted by elpea at 4:39 PM on December 6, 2010
Also, you can buy old tests online. I got lucky and had a friend that took one of the expensive prep classes a couple of years before and gave me huge books full of old LSATs that she hadnt used all of. You might check with friends, craigslist, or used bookstores.
posted by elpea at 4:44 PM on December 6, 2010
posted by elpea at 4:44 PM on December 6, 2010
If you're still in college (or have access to a university), my college's career services had some official LSAC published old LSAT sections that students just photocopied for practice. However, I'd also agree with the other posters that relaxing, as much as you can, is the best thing you do at the test, and in the days leading up to it.
posted by Caz721 at 5:15 PM on December 6, 2010
posted by Caz721 at 5:15 PM on December 6, 2010
Try the LSAT forums at top law schools, there is a huge community of people obsessing about logic games there, it's like a crowd sourced LSAT tutor. Powerscore is a good book by the way, they only use real LSAT material. But they do spend a bit too much time focusing on categorizing games by type in my opinion. You won't find any other books that are substantially better, though.
posted by bluejayk at 5:36 PM on December 6, 2010
posted by bluejayk at 5:36 PM on December 6, 2010
Response by poster: hi everyone- thanks for input. i have all the old tests (through kaplan materials) and have gone through many real problems. biggest issue i've had is speed, and getting panicky when I do timed sections.
posted by saraindc at 5:39 PM on December 6, 2010
posted by saraindc at 5:39 PM on December 6, 2010
Best answer: Hylas' advice is quite good. I taught LSAT for years with The Princeton Review though not lately. I assume you know how well you want to do on the LSTA generally. Keep in mind that maybe you only need to do three out of four games to get that score. If you had slightly more time to do the three you had, do you think you could do okay? The big thing in my mind is to get started and to realize that this isn't supposed to be as difficult as it is complicated.
That is, there is a lot of information that you need to organize so that you can draw conclusions from it. And you need to be able to do this in a slightly speedy fashion. So part of your timing issue is going to be figuring out what is taking up your time. Are you over-organizing? Drawing meticulous diagrams? Trying to figure out where everyone is in the ordering game when you just need to know about the relationships between a few people. The thing that was the toughest for me to do was to be able to distinguish between absolute and relative placement sorts of things. That is, there's a difference between "John sits in the first chair" and "John is always to the right of Alice" and additionally the conclusions "If John is always to the right of Alice then alice can never be in the rightmost chair" and then having those conclusions cascade.
But really, relaxation is more important than most of this. Being able to get enough sleep, eat well, unclench your jaw and think "I am going to ROCK this" Take a few times tests and see if you can do better doing three of the four games. Good luck.
posted by jessamyn at 6:11 PM on December 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
That is, there is a lot of information that you need to organize so that you can draw conclusions from it. And you need to be able to do this in a slightly speedy fashion. So part of your timing issue is going to be figuring out what is taking up your time. Are you over-organizing? Drawing meticulous diagrams? Trying to figure out where everyone is in the ordering game when you just need to know about the relationships between a few people. The thing that was the toughest for me to do was to be able to distinguish between absolute and relative placement sorts of things. That is, there's a difference between "John sits in the first chair" and "John is always to the right of Alice" and additionally the conclusions "If John is always to the right of Alice then alice can never be in the rightmost chair" and then having those conclusions cascade.
But really, relaxation is more important than most of this. Being able to get enough sleep, eat well, unclench your jaw and think "I am going to ROCK this" Take a few times tests and see if you can do better doing three of the four games. Good luck.
posted by jessamyn at 6:11 PM on December 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: i can only 2 out of 4 games! that's what so strange- it seems like anyone who studies long enough can do better than that. 3 out of 4 games is what i'm shooting for :( sigh
tanks everyone!
jessamyn's advice on timing is the sort of stuff i'm looking for...in case anyone reads this post again.
posted by saraindc at 12:29 AM on December 7, 2010
tanks everyone!
jessamyn's advice on timing is the sort of stuff i'm looking for...in case anyone reads this post again.
posted by saraindc at 12:29 AM on December 7, 2010
Best answer: I took the LSAT last year and had trouble with the timing for the logic games section as well. I used only the SparkNotes guide to study and did pretty well (just finishing up my first semester). My advice would be to skim over the individual questions after reading the actual game so you have an idea of what you're looking for and which way to structure your diagram. I also realized I was spending way too much time figuring out the hardest (for me) question on each game, so I skipped that one and moved on to the next game. That way I at least got to each game, and forcing myself to work fast and skip answers when needed gave me a tiny bit of time at the end where I could go back and attempt the question I missed. Plus, you might not end up needing to skip any questions on the last game so that should make up for the questions you may have skipped on the first games.
And as others have said above, RELAX before the exam. Get everything ready so you're not scrambling at the last minute, and make sure you rest the night before and eat before the exam. Good luck!
posted by asras at 3:28 AM on December 7, 2010
And as others have said above, RELAX before the exam. Get everything ready so you're not scrambling at the last minute, and make sure you rest the night before and eat before the exam. Good luck!
posted by asras at 3:28 AM on December 7, 2010
Also in case you missed it, there's a more specific LSAT question this week which might have good information.
One of the other things I'd do to practice is getting used to "okay now what do we know?"
So like John is in the red chair. What do we know?
- he's not in any other color chair
- no one else is in the red chair
- the red chair is full
- John has a chair
Often LSAT stuff doesn't hinge on this, but like the next level. So something like there are three chairs in a line: red, yellow and blue. John is in the red chair. The blue chair is not the center chair. The yellow chair is on the left. Where is John sitting?
So you have to take what you know, and then combine it. So okay if the blue chair isn't the center it HAS to be left or right. Yellow is left ["okay now what do you know?"] Blue must be right ["Okay now what do you know?"] Red is center ["Okay now what do you know?"] That's where John is!
So each time you take in more data, get used to rejiggering "okay now what do you know?" and do this to work towards an answer. Do a rough chart/graph and then only do what you need to do to answer the questions. The goal is NOT to completely fill out your graph/diagram, it's to eliminate wrong answers to arrive at one answer left. That's the credited response. You get zero points for having a nice graph. Hope that's helpful.
posted by jessamyn at 4:20 PM on December 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
One of the other things I'd do to practice is getting used to "okay now what do we know?"
So like John is in the red chair. What do we know?
- he's not in any other color chair
- no one else is in the red chair
- the red chair is full
- John has a chair
Often LSAT stuff doesn't hinge on this, but like the next level. So something like there are three chairs in a line: red, yellow and blue. John is in the red chair. The blue chair is not the center chair. The yellow chair is on the left. Where is John sitting?
So you have to take what you know, and then combine it. So okay if the blue chair isn't the center it HAS to be left or right. Yellow is left ["okay now what do you know?"] Blue must be right ["Okay now what do you know?"] Red is center ["Okay now what do you know?"] That's where John is!
So each time you take in more data, get used to rejiggering "okay now what do you know?" and do this to work towards an answer. Do a rough chart/graph and then only do what you need to do to answer the questions. The goal is NOT to completely fill out your graph/diagram, it's to eliminate wrong answers to arrive at one answer left. That's the credited response. You get zero points for having a nice graph. Hope that's helpful.
posted by jessamyn at 4:20 PM on December 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by Neekee at 3:52 PM on December 6, 2010