Just shut up already.
October 23, 2010 6:39 PM Subscribe
Crazy family situation, please help me think this out.
My family is nuts, yours is also probably nuts too. There are 4 of us, my father (85), sister (46, married with 2 children [6 & 10]), brother (estranged, 56), and me (married, no children, 52).
I love my sister dearly, but she seems to have created an Oliver Twist childhood for herself. Our childhood was kind of awful: mentally unbalanced mother, brother with incipient paranoid schizophrenia, angry yelling father (think Don Draper, complete with messed up childhood, affairs, and you got my dad to a T), sullen older sister (moi'). Our mother died 30 years ago. Lots of chaos and disarray. But recently she said a couple of odd things to me.
I was visiting her family (she also lives 5000 miles away) and I told her 6-year old she was too young to be left home alone; anyway, my sister would never leave the 6-year old home by herself. My sister said that she had been left home alone at 6. This is completely false. My parents never did this. We had a nanny for heaven's sake. When I told her she was never left alone until she was 10, she said, "well it felt like it."
She also told me she was upset because one of her neighbors had just come back from setting up her son at college. She said she had just been dumped at college. Again this is untrue. I didn't know what to say, since I didn't think she meant it. Then a few days later she said the same thing. I told her she was not dumped at college, that our father had gone up for the complete parent's orientation (which included and overnight stay and meals in the cafeteria) and that we had brought her up to college the day before official move in so she would have a chance to settle in. In fact, her dorm room was kind of dirty, so we all (including dad, since it was his idea) washed everything including the walls. When we finished my sister's side, my father said we had to do the other side too, since my sister "had to look at it." When she moved on to another college, my father furnished her room lavishly. He did not attend orientation there since his appendix burst and he almost died. I went to orientation with her. I did say to her, "I hate to disabuse you of this Oliver Twist childhood you concocted for yourself, but...." She said she didn't remember until I reminded her.
My father is a former teacher. My sister homeschools her children. My father is really unhappy about this. My sister argues with him about it. I keep telling her not to argue with him, he is an old man and what good does it do. My sister is doing a great job with homeschooling. Her children are wonderful. My dad is upset since he does not get to see or talk to the children. Since he doesn't see them he has this image that they are illiterate and feral. He doesn't like to travel and my sister finds visiting him upsetting. He does send her money and presents. She send day great gifts and things from the kids. My dad can't understand why the children will not talk to him on the phone. I told him it is because they are kids and they do not really know him. There is no reasoning with either.
My brother was 10 when he started going crazy. Not just "I am a teenager crazy," I mean, clinically insane. He now lives in a park and has been homeless for about 20 years. My father feels that he is at fault for this. He projects this fear onto my nephew (10 years old). He is convinced that my sister needs to be very strict with the boy or he will end up like my brother. My father felt my mother was too easy on my brother. But my brother is a certified paranoid schizophrenic, this is not something that happens because your mother coddled you. Additionally, my sister is rather strict with her son, she just does not yell, hit, or verbally abuse. She is a rational parent, her son is a lovely and rational child.
I haven't seen my father in 3 years. I would like to go see him. I live about 5,000 miles away. He hates to travel, so he only visited me once in the last 20 years. But I don't want to rehash all this family stuff. I just want to visit him and have a nice time. I would also like my sister to be there. I have a dread feeling that it will be a week of sulking and yelling.
So my question is, how would you deal with this? Is there a way to get them for one week to not hash up all the problems and things that went wrong?
Not seeing my father is not an option. For all his problems, he was a great father and I love him dearly. I also don't want to be told to go on and live my own life, I have done that. I am content. I just want to see my family.
My family is nuts, yours is also probably nuts too. There are 4 of us, my father (85), sister (46, married with 2 children [6 & 10]), brother (estranged, 56), and me (married, no children, 52).
I love my sister dearly, but she seems to have created an Oliver Twist childhood for herself. Our childhood was kind of awful: mentally unbalanced mother, brother with incipient paranoid schizophrenia, angry yelling father (think Don Draper, complete with messed up childhood, affairs, and you got my dad to a T), sullen older sister (moi'). Our mother died 30 years ago. Lots of chaos and disarray. But recently she said a couple of odd things to me.
I was visiting her family (she also lives 5000 miles away) and I told her 6-year old she was too young to be left home alone; anyway, my sister would never leave the 6-year old home by herself. My sister said that she had been left home alone at 6. This is completely false. My parents never did this. We had a nanny for heaven's sake. When I told her she was never left alone until she was 10, she said, "well it felt like it."
She also told me she was upset because one of her neighbors had just come back from setting up her son at college. She said she had just been dumped at college. Again this is untrue. I didn't know what to say, since I didn't think she meant it. Then a few days later she said the same thing. I told her she was not dumped at college, that our father had gone up for the complete parent's orientation (which included and overnight stay and meals in the cafeteria) and that we had brought her up to college the day before official move in so she would have a chance to settle in. In fact, her dorm room was kind of dirty, so we all (including dad, since it was his idea) washed everything including the walls. When we finished my sister's side, my father said we had to do the other side too, since my sister "had to look at it." When she moved on to another college, my father furnished her room lavishly. He did not attend orientation there since his appendix burst and he almost died. I went to orientation with her. I did say to her, "I hate to disabuse you of this Oliver Twist childhood you concocted for yourself, but...." She said she didn't remember until I reminded her.
My father is a former teacher. My sister homeschools her children. My father is really unhappy about this. My sister argues with him about it. I keep telling her not to argue with him, he is an old man and what good does it do. My sister is doing a great job with homeschooling. Her children are wonderful. My dad is upset since he does not get to see or talk to the children. Since he doesn't see them he has this image that they are illiterate and feral. He doesn't like to travel and my sister finds visiting him upsetting. He does send her money and presents. She send day great gifts and things from the kids. My dad can't understand why the children will not talk to him on the phone. I told him it is because they are kids and they do not really know him. There is no reasoning with either.
My brother was 10 when he started going crazy. Not just "I am a teenager crazy," I mean, clinically insane. He now lives in a park and has been homeless for about 20 years. My father feels that he is at fault for this. He projects this fear onto my nephew (10 years old). He is convinced that my sister needs to be very strict with the boy or he will end up like my brother. My father felt my mother was too easy on my brother. But my brother is a certified paranoid schizophrenic, this is not something that happens because your mother coddled you. Additionally, my sister is rather strict with her son, she just does not yell, hit, or verbally abuse. She is a rational parent, her son is a lovely and rational child.
I haven't seen my father in 3 years. I would like to go see him. I live about 5,000 miles away. He hates to travel, so he only visited me once in the last 20 years. But I don't want to rehash all this family stuff. I just want to visit him and have a nice time. I would also like my sister to be there. I have a dread feeling that it will be a week of sulking and yelling.
So my question is, how would you deal with this? Is there a way to get them for one week to not hash up all the problems and things that went wrong?
Not seeing my father is not an option. For all his problems, he was a great father and I love him dearly. I also don't want to be told to go on and live my own life, I have done that. I am content. I just want to see my family.
So my question is, how would you deal with this? Is there a way to get them for one week to not hash up all the problems and things that went wrong?
Can you accept that "No" is possibly an answer here? Because "No" sounds like the answer. Given the history, it sounds highly optimistic to hope that a one-week vacation with Dad, Sis and you is going to be a happy dream. They do not get along.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:48 PM on October 23, 2010
Can you accept that "No" is possibly an answer here? Because "No" sounds like the answer. Given the history, it sounds highly optimistic to hope that a one-week vacation with Dad, Sis and you is going to be a happy dream. They do not get along.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:48 PM on October 23, 2010
Um...does it really matter if your parents never technically left your sister alone if she did in fact, feel like they did, and can't even remember that they didn't? I would argue she has a strong point there. Obviously, even though a nanny may have been technically in the house somewhere, she felt alone, was probably left alone in her room or some similar situation, and wasn't comforted by anyone. I'd let that issue go, it's quite frankly pretty trivial.
Also, the college story-that honestly doesn't really sound like a particularly loving send-off, more an adequate one, just in my experience.
I am getting the sense (sorry) that this is really your sister's business more than yours. It's not up to you to defend your parents and that's not a road I would go down. Perhaps it's because you have no kids of your own that you worry so much about hers, which is understandable, but-it's really her business.
Here is what I would honestly do in this situation: MYOB. If for some reason, you really feel that you can't, or you get dragged into an argument and are forced to pick sides, I personally would default to your sister over your father pretty much every time and let the little "remembering wrong" incidents go. Frankly, at this point it may be too late for the kids to ever feel safe with grandad and it's not a good idea to force it. He's going to pass away, while your sister will be your only remaining family and her children the only legacy of this whole drama. Consider that.
posted by Nixy at 6:49 PM on October 23, 2010 [3 favorites]
Also, the college story-that honestly doesn't really sound like a particularly loving send-off, more an adequate one, just in my experience.
I am getting the sense (sorry) that this is really your sister's business more than yours. It's not up to you to defend your parents and that's not a road I would go down. Perhaps it's because you have no kids of your own that you worry so much about hers, which is understandable, but-it's really her business.
Here is what I would honestly do in this situation: MYOB. If for some reason, you really feel that you can't, or you get dragged into an argument and are forced to pick sides, I personally would default to your sister over your father pretty much every time and let the little "remembering wrong" incidents go. Frankly, at this point it may be too late for the kids to ever feel safe with grandad and it's not a good idea to force it. He's going to pass away, while your sister will be your only remaining family and her children the only legacy of this whole drama. Consider that.
posted by Nixy at 6:49 PM on October 23, 2010 [3 favorites]
I think maybe you're trying too hard to manage the relationship between your father and your sister. It really is up to them to do that. Not that you should be completely hands off. Your sister seems to listen to you when you correct her false memories, so that seems constructive.
I'd maybe tell them both that you would like to have this visit and that you are worried that it'll be tense and see what they say to that. And I do think that actually getting to see and know his grandchildren a little will go a long way towards pacifying your father.
posted by orange swan at 6:51 PM on October 23, 2010 [3 favorites]
I'd maybe tell them both that you would like to have this visit and that you are worried that it'll be tense and see what they say to that. And I do think that actually getting to see and know his grandchildren a little will go a long way towards pacifying your father.
posted by orange swan at 6:51 PM on October 23, 2010 [3 favorites]
Listen, your family is crazy. But I have seen crazier (see: my family). You can't control your family members, but you can control your reaction to family members. Stay level headed at all times. Assume that crazy people are going to do crazy things. Always be patient and have well measured responses. If you feel you are being sucked into a stupid fight/situation, don't argue your way out. Say something like, I'll be back when things have calmed down a little bit.. and then leave for a little bit. You are not their therapist, you are their family member. So the lying, while it sucks, may not be worth challenging. At this point.. the misremembering/lying is probably not going to just stop because you've made a stand. Do your best to set the tone when you hang out with them, and if it gets derailed, do your best to get things back on track. That is really all you can do.. and if things go to shit, welp, you tried your best!
posted by pwally at 6:54 PM on October 23, 2010
posted by pwally at 6:54 PM on October 23, 2010
You know, I have an older sister who briefly tried to 'manage' my relationship with other family members.
It was painful, embarassing, shaming, and belittling.
Please don't try to construct a relationship for your sister and father. If either of them wants to mend fences, they can reach out to each other. Finding a way to get them into the same room and coerce them to behave is likely to cause resentment on all of your parts.
posted by bilabial at 7:22 PM on October 23, 2010 [4 favorites]
It was painful, embarassing, shaming, and belittling.
Please don't try to construct a relationship for your sister and father. If either of them wants to mend fences, they can reach out to each other. Finding a way to get them into the same room and coerce them to behave is likely to cause resentment on all of your parts.
posted by bilabial at 7:22 PM on October 23, 2010 [4 favorites]
Not only would it be a week of sulking and yelling (if you strong-armed your sister into going,) the visit would be about four days too long anyway. Since you'll now be going to visit your dad alone, keep it to three days! A week is too long to visit any family member, unless he's Jeremy Irons.
posted by BostonTerrier at 7:24 PM on October 23, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by BostonTerrier at 7:24 PM on October 23, 2010 [2 favorites]
You're the oldest, right? You feel responsible for everybody, you try to protect everybody, you tend to be a little bossy but it's for their own good... there are reasons these stereotypes exist.
But as everyone here says, you can only live your own life and only change yourself. You love your dad, you love your sister, you want to see them. Great! Visit them, but don't try to force their together time or get stuck in their fights. You can bring up to your sister that you'd love to have here there, but if she doesn't want to be there, even if it's just for a weekend - don't push her.
It sounds like you're doing a good job of countering their fightiest misconceptions about each other with reason, so do that, but then move on and change the subject. You can't fix them, you can only love them for who they are.
posted by ldthomps at 7:32 PM on October 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
But as everyone here says, you can only live your own life and only change yourself. You love your dad, you love your sister, you want to see them. Great! Visit them, but don't try to force their together time or get stuck in their fights. You can bring up to your sister that you'd love to have here there, but if she doesn't want to be there, even if it's just for a weekend - don't push her.
It sounds like you're doing a good job of countering their fightiest misconceptions about each other with reason, so do that, but then move on and change the subject. You can't fix them, you can only love them for who they are.
posted by ldthomps at 7:32 PM on October 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
You have my sympathies. I have a similar family situation in that my brother is mentally ill, I've not seen my sister in over ten years (although we do communicate) and it is unlikely that we will ever all be together again. I've found that we have tended to recreate different realities for ourselves, as part of a coping mechanism, and while I don't agree with other family members interpretations, I have to let that go.
I work at having the separate relationships with my family members and do not to manage a group relationship - that dynamic has always been effed up and it's perhaps better as it is right now. Getting us together won't bring any breakthroughs. And we are all likely to revert to type in spite of all our best efforts.
Go and have your trip and enjoy your relationship with your father. And while I'm not an advocate of therapy for everything, talking to an impartial person about all of this has given me a much-needed perspective and some practical tools for managing these tricky relationships.
posted by poissonrouge at 7:44 PM on October 23, 2010
I work at having the separate relationships with my family members and do not to manage a group relationship - that dynamic has always been effed up and it's perhaps better as it is right now. Getting us together won't bring any breakthroughs. And we are all likely to revert to type in spite of all our best efforts.
Go and have your trip and enjoy your relationship with your father. And while I'm not an advocate of therapy for everything, talking to an impartial person about all of this has given me a much-needed perspective and some practical tools for managing these tricky relationships.
posted by poissonrouge at 7:44 PM on October 23, 2010
None of this -- from your sister's parenting (and memories) to your brother's homelessness, to your father's abusiveness, to how your dad and sis interact -- is anything that you have any control over whatsoever.
And here you are, trying to manage and correct things, fussing over the details and nudging things in the direction you think they should go in. You are not their caseworker, they are grown adults and can have the relationships they'd like to have.
It doesn't sound like you want everyone to shut up -- it sounds like you want them to do and act as you'd prefer, and remember things the way you remember them. Surrender control! Relax, manage your own life, and with the details of others lives become inconvenient or contradict what you know to be true, mind your own business.
Your sister is a parent, and presumably pretty busy taking care of her kid, so deciding when and where she should go on vacation is pretty much not something you do. How about each making a list of places you'd like to go, and seeing where they overlap? THAT sounds like a good trip to take with sis.
posted by hermitosis at 8:05 PM on October 23, 2010 [2 favorites]
And here you are, trying to manage and correct things, fussing over the details and nudging things in the direction you think they should go in. You are not their caseworker, they are grown adults and can have the relationships they'd like to have.
It doesn't sound like you want everyone to shut up -- it sounds like you want them to do and act as you'd prefer, and remember things the way you remember them. Surrender control! Relax, manage your own life, and with the details of others lives become inconvenient or contradict what you know to be true, mind your own business.
Your sister is a parent, and presumably pretty busy taking care of her kid, so deciding when and where she should go on vacation is pretty much not something you do. How about each making a list of places you'd like to go, and seeing where they overlap? THAT sounds like a good trip to take with sis.
posted by hermitosis at 8:05 PM on October 23, 2010 [2 favorites]
I'm a little confused - do you live 5,000 miles away from your father and sister who are in the same location, or are you and your sister in the same location 5,000 miles away from your father?
I agree with the answers who say visit your father on your own terms, without regard for your sister, but I'm going to speculate - is it difficult for you to see your father alone? If so, I understand with the great distance that your husband or a friend could not come with you, but are you in contact with anyone other than your sister who is local to your father that could share the visits with you? Stay in a hotel and then get the third party and visit? Sometimes complicated family stuff is often buffered by a non-family member being present, at least for the initial contact.
posted by rainbaby at 8:18 PM on October 23, 2010
I agree with the answers who say visit your father on your own terms, without regard for your sister, but I'm going to speculate - is it difficult for you to see your father alone? If so, I understand with the great distance that your husband or a friend could not come with you, but are you in contact with anyone other than your sister who is local to your father that could share the visits with you? Stay in a hotel and then get the third party and visit? Sometimes complicated family stuff is often buffered by a non-family member being present, at least for the initial contact.
posted by rainbaby at 8:18 PM on October 23, 2010
There is a great book on this, The Dance of Intimacy. I definitely recommend it. It's got a lot of very practical advice.
posted by selfmedicating at 8:36 PM on October 23, 2010
posted by selfmedicating at 8:36 PM on October 23, 2010
I have lived, and/or been witness to almost everything in your story, in one way or another.
1) People who have had traumatic pasts can get a lot of post-production editing going on in their heads. Dealing with the bad parts can really re-color the good parts. Hell, even in pretty cut & dried situations, a lot of stuff gets interpreted differently by parties involved, and then over time memories erode.
As exhibits A & B for your anectdata collection: I once asked my mother & my father how my sister and I ended up moved between homes on 24 hours notice. My father said, "It was a female conspiracy to take away my kids" and my mother said, "it was a complete shock; you guys were dumped on me." Only by talking to my ex-stepmother did I get a point of view capable of stitching these two responses together. Reconstructing memories from a tumultuous past can be like doing a jigsaw puzzle with the lid burned beyond recognition & the pieces put through a woodchipper.
More recently, I made an offhand comment to my mother about how much I enjoyed travelling by train as a child. She was incensed by the idea that minors would have been put on a train alone and demanded to know when I had ever been put on a train with my sister as an unaccompanied minor. This despite the fact that my childhood is stitched with memories of travelling between parents by both plane & train, and that it was a standing joke between me and my sister was that Dad always sent us by plane & Mom (smaller paycheck) always sent us by train. Go figure. Sometimes you just have to accept that the memory has been scrubbed or buried, or whatever & move on.
2) Do not take your sister. I cannot emphasize this enough. Whatever peace you may be ready to make with your father, it will be hard enough without a third party complicating the chemistry. This is personal. This is you. This will be hard. This will take time. Do not bring an extra baggage train.
I can think of a dozen reasons without even trying why you might _want_ to bring her, but I promise you they are fantasies. Playing "Happy Families" will not make reconcilliation any more or less real, and it will not keep you safe from the emotional impact of being in the same room as someone who truly fucked up as a parent. If you need a third party to make this visit emotionally tenable, draft a really, REALLY good friend to go with you. Preferably someone who knows something of the history, and who has the capacity to help you in a meltdown.
3) Do not take your sister. I will say it again for completely different reasons. Your experience with your father is by nature different than her experience with your father. You may have been there at the same time and place, but you are not the same person, you were not the same age, and the subjective experience is different. What you want and are willing/able to do implies nothing about what she wants and is willing/able to do.
When I was in my twenties & reconstructing my childhood, I reconnected with my ex-stepmother. Despite loathing her as a kid, I discovered I liked her. I respect and trust her. We became family again. So I was a little surprised to learn (7 years later), that what my sister remembers of her is that she used to beat her.
I remember those scenes. I remember how they started, how they ended, and a lot of what went on in between. I do remember the bad times. But I disagree strongly with my sister's interpretation of events. I remember a child who was so far out of control she would try to hurt herself and things and other people. I remember my stepfather, a man who'd never raised a hand or voice to anyone in his life, picking her up bodily and throwing her into a shower during one of those fits. I remember situations that could not be controlled by anything other than an adult overwhelming a child by force. But the details are irrelevant; this is not something we will ever remember the same.
My point is: I can forgive & foster a relationship there, my sister cannot. You cannot assume your sister's point of view. It doesn't matter that you were there & remember.
Do not drag your sister into this. She has her own relationship with your father & has made her own journey. If she's keeping him at an armlength, she doubtless has her reasons, and inviting her into an emotionally charged meeting like you're describing is just a recipe for disaster. The argument "because it will be too late later" is not sufficient for dismissing any pain she went through/may still be carrying around with her.
I feel like I had more I wanted to address when I started typing, but I've lost my train of thought. But the most important point is already made: Let your sister negotiate her relationship with the father in peace. At most, let her know the trip is happening & leave it at that.
I'm sorry you've had to walk through this Hell. It also is a shame that your father thinks he failed with his son. It must be a heavy burden on him, and it is a blessing that your sister has seen through that lie of the heart and has been able to raise her own children without its spectre controlling their lives.
posted by Ys at 8:45 PM on October 23, 2010 [10 favorites]
1) People who have had traumatic pasts can get a lot of post-production editing going on in their heads. Dealing with the bad parts can really re-color the good parts. Hell, even in pretty cut & dried situations, a lot of stuff gets interpreted differently by parties involved, and then over time memories erode.
As exhibits A & B for your anectdata collection: I once asked my mother & my father how my sister and I ended up moved between homes on 24 hours notice. My father said, "It was a female conspiracy to take away my kids" and my mother said, "it was a complete shock; you guys were dumped on me." Only by talking to my ex-stepmother did I get a point of view capable of stitching these two responses together. Reconstructing memories from a tumultuous past can be like doing a jigsaw puzzle with the lid burned beyond recognition & the pieces put through a woodchipper.
More recently, I made an offhand comment to my mother about how much I enjoyed travelling by train as a child. She was incensed by the idea that minors would have been put on a train alone and demanded to know when I had ever been put on a train with my sister as an unaccompanied minor. This despite the fact that my childhood is stitched with memories of travelling between parents by both plane & train, and that it was a standing joke between me and my sister was that Dad always sent us by plane & Mom (smaller paycheck) always sent us by train. Go figure. Sometimes you just have to accept that the memory has been scrubbed or buried, or whatever & move on.
2) Do not take your sister. I cannot emphasize this enough. Whatever peace you may be ready to make with your father, it will be hard enough without a third party complicating the chemistry. This is personal. This is you. This will be hard. This will take time. Do not bring an extra baggage train.
I can think of a dozen reasons without even trying why you might _want_ to bring her, but I promise you they are fantasies. Playing "Happy Families" will not make reconcilliation any more or less real, and it will not keep you safe from the emotional impact of being in the same room as someone who truly fucked up as a parent. If you need a third party to make this visit emotionally tenable, draft a really, REALLY good friend to go with you. Preferably someone who knows something of the history, and who has the capacity to help you in a meltdown.
3) Do not take your sister. I will say it again for completely different reasons. Your experience with your father is by nature different than her experience with your father. You may have been there at the same time and place, but you are not the same person, you were not the same age, and the subjective experience is different. What you want and are willing/able to do implies nothing about what she wants and is willing/able to do.
When I was in my twenties & reconstructing my childhood, I reconnected with my ex-stepmother. Despite loathing her as a kid, I discovered I liked her. I respect and trust her. We became family again. So I was a little surprised to learn (7 years later), that what my sister remembers of her is that she used to beat her.
I remember those scenes. I remember how they started, how they ended, and a lot of what went on in between. I do remember the bad times. But I disagree strongly with my sister's interpretation of events. I remember a child who was so far out of control she would try to hurt herself and things and other people. I remember my stepfather, a man who'd never raised a hand or voice to anyone in his life, picking her up bodily and throwing her into a shower during one of those fits. I remember situations that could not be controlled by anything other than an adult overwhelming a child by force. But the details are irrelevant; this is not something we will ever remember the same.
My point is: I can forgive & foster a relationship there, my sister cannot. You cannot assume your sister's point of view. It doesn't matter that you were there & remember.
Do not drag your sister into this. She has her own relationship with your father & has made her own journey. If she's keeping him at an armlength, she doubtless has her reasons, and inviting her into an emotionally charged meeting like you're describing is just a recipe for disaster. The argument "because it will be too late later" is not sufficient for dismissing any pain she went through/may still be carrying around with her.
I feel like I had more I wanted to address when I started typing, but I've lost my train of thought. But the most important point is already made: Let your sister negotiate her relationship with the father in peace. At most, let her know the trip is happening & leave it at that.
I'm sorry you've had to walk through this Hell. It also is a shame that your father thinks he failed with his son. It must be a heavy burden on him, and it is a blessing that your sister has seen through that lie of the heart and has been able to raise her own children without its spectre controlling their lives.
posted by Ys at 8:45 PM on October 23, 2010 [10 favorites]
Um...does it really matter if your parents never technically left your sister alone if she did in fact, feel like they did, and can't even remember that they didn't? I would argue she has a strong point there.
I would argue she's being a big fat drama queen and lying about stuff that didn't happen.
I have a sibling like this too and I get along with him well, I also get along with the rest of the family well. He does not, therefore I either go see him OR the rest of the family not both at once. Much easier on my brain.
posted by fshgrl at 8:57 PM on October 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
I would argue she's being a big fat drama queen and lying about stuff that didn't happen.
I have a sibling like this too and I get along with him well, I also get along with the rest of the family well. He does not, therefore I either go see him OR the rest of the family not both at once. Much easier on my brain.
posted by fshgrl at 8:57 PM on October 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
I would argue she's being a big fat drama queen and lying about stuff that didn't happen.
Let me put it this way: My father was abusive. I am the youngest sibling with an older sister. I know firsthand that "I had it worse growing up than you did! Dad was nicer to you!" "No, being the oldest is harder, you're wrong!" arguments are a complete, absolute waste of everyone's time and emotion and are extremely juvenile. An older sister condescending to explain to me why my memories are “wrong” is also pointless and offensive and helps no one. (Filling in the gaps with kindness is another matter, as is friendly reminiscing) If I were the OP I would take a good hard look at why these little comments by her sister have continued to bother her past the age of say, 15. Who cares what she thinks? It’s her reality. It’s not even directly affecting their father, and I would venture to guess that gently correcting your little sister that she wasn’t actually left alone when she was 6 (a time many people remember inaccurately) isn’t going to make her suddenly repair a years-rocky relationship with Dad. It’s the kind of thing that you have to decide to either make a huge deal and have it out in a big dramafest, or just let it go, and I know which option I’d pick.
Also, when my dad dropped me off at college, he INSISTED on buying me a futon and ORDERED me to help him put it together even though I didn’t need it, wouldn’t be able to move it out later, and had other important things to be doing during that time. I pleaded with him to stop. Wouldn’t hear it. Had to listen to other people tell me for YEARS that he “meant well”. Surely we all know how the “facts” can make an abuser look good and like he was just trying to help when the emotional reality is actually that he’s ignoring and minimizing someone’s feelings (hence the sister feeling things like ignored, “dumped” alone, etc) The emotional reality is more important in those situations than “the facts” and who comes out “looking good.”
posted by Nixy at 9:54 PM on October 23, 2010 [2 favorites]
Let me put it this way: My father was abusive. I am the youngest sibling with an older sister. I know firsthand that "I had it worse growing up than you did! Dad was nicer to you!" "No, being the oldest is harder, you're wrong!" arguments are a complete, absolute waste of everyone's time and emotion and are extremely juvenile. An older sister condescending to explain to me why my memories are “wrong” is also pointless and offensive and helps no one. (Filling in the gaps with kindness is another matter, as is friendly reminiscing) If I were the OP I would take a good hard look at why these little comments by her sister have continued to bother her past the age of say, 15. Who cares what she thinks? It’s her reality. It’s not even directly affecting their father, and I would venture to guess that gently correcting your little sister that she wasn’t actually left alone when she was 6 (a time many people remember inaccurately) isn’t going to make her suddenly repair a years-rocky relationship with Dad. It’s the kind of thing that you have to decide to either make a huge deal and have it out in a big dramafest, or just let it go, and I know which option I’d pick.
Also, when my dad dropped me off at college, he INSISTED on buying me a futon and ORDERED me to help him put it together even though I didn’t need it, wouldn’t be able to move it out later, and had other important things to be doing during that time. I pleaded with him to stop. Wouldn’t hear it. Had to listen to other people tell me for YEARS that he “meant well”. Surely we all know how the “facts” can make an abuser look good and like he was just trying to help when the emotional reality is actually that he’s ignoring and minimizing someone’s feelings (hence the sister feeling things like ignored, “dumped” alone, etc) The emotional reality is more important in those situations than “the facts” and who comes out “looking good.”
posted by Nixy at 9:54 PM on October 23, 2010 [2 favorites]
Your question is kind of all over the place, to be honest. You give the answer(s) to your question(s) yourself. I use parentheses to refer to the implied questions about your sister's irrationality — meaning that you very strongly imply that she's being irrational, even though you give pretty solid grounds for her being quite well-grounded. So I'll quote you, answering yourself:
On your childhood and experiences with parents: "Our childhood was kind of awful: mentally unbalanced mother, brother with incipient paranoid schizophrenia, angry yelling father (think Don Draper, complete with messed up childhood, affairs, and you got my dad to a T), sullen older sister (moi'). Our mother died 30 years ago. Lots of chaos and disarray."
On your sister's groundedness: "My sister is doing a great job with homeschooling. Her children are wonderful." And later, "She is a rational parent, her son is a lovely and rational child."
That's pretty awesome, a woman who came out of a "chaotic" childhood spent with a "mentally unbalanced mother" and "angry yelling father" as a warm, rational, strong, non-abusive parent.
On your father's... "consideration"... for your sister and his own grandchildren(!): "Since he doesn't see them [her children] he has this image that they are illiterate and feral."
They're her children. Maybe she also wants to protect them from what sounds like an overly judgmental, unpredictable grandfather?
On whether to see your father, yourself: "I would like to go see him. [...] Not seeing my father is not an option. For all his problems, he was a great father and I love him dearly. I also don't want to be told to go on and live my own life, I have done that. I am content. I just want to see my family."
So go see him. Ask your sister if she wants to go with her. If/when she says "no", that's her answer. She sounds like she's got a pretty darn good head on her shoulders.
posted by fraula at 1:24 AM on October 24, 2010
On your childhood and experiences with parents: "Our childhood was kind of awful: mentally unbalanced mother, brother with incipient paranoid schizophrenia, angry yelling father (think Don Draper, complete with messed up childhood, affairs, and you got my dad to a T), sullen older sister (moi'). Our mother died 30 years ago. Lots of chaos and disarray."
On your sister's groundedness: "My sister is doing a great job with homeschooling. Her children are wonderful." And later, "She is a rational parent, her son is a lovely and rational child."
That's pretty awesome, a woman who came out of a "chaotic" childhood spent with a "mentally unbalanced mother" and "angry yelling father" as a warm, rational, strong, non-abusive parent.
On your father's... "consideration"... for your sister and his own grandchildren(!): "Since he doesn't see them [her children] he has this image that they are illiterate and feral."
They're her children. Maybe she also wants to protect them from what sounds like an overly judgmental, unpredictable grandfather?
On whether to see your father, yourself: "I would like to go see him. [...] Not seeing my father is not an option. For all his problems, he was a great father and I love him dearly. I also don't want to be told to go on and live my own life, I have done that. I am content. I just want to see my family."
So go see him. Ask your sister if she wants to go with her. If/when she says "no", that's her answer. She sounds like she's got a pretty darn good head on her shoulders.
posted by fraula at 1:24 AM on October 24, 2010
Oops, one of my italics tags didn't get closed. Should be as follows:
Maybe she also wants to protect them from what sounds like an overly judgmental, unpredictable grandfather?
On whether to see your father, yourself: "I would like to go see him. [...] Not seeing my father is not an option. For all his problems, he was a great father and I love him dearly. I also don't want to be told to go on and live my own life, I have done that. I am content. I just want to see my family."
So go see him. Ask your sister if she wants to go with her. If/when she says "no", that's her answer. She sounds like she's got a pretty darn good head on her shoulders.
posted by fraula at 1:26 AM on October 24, 2010
Maybe she also wants to protect them from what sounds like an overly judgmental, unpredictable grandfather?
On whether to see your father, yourself: "I would like to go see him. [...] Not seeing my father is not an option. For all his problems, he was a great father and I love him dearly. I also don't want to be told to go on and live my own life, I have done that. I am content. I just want to see my family."
So go see him. Ask your sister if she wants to go with her. If/when she says "no", that's her answer. She sounds like she's got a pretty darn good head on her shoulders.
posted by fraula at 1:26 AM on October 24, 2010
Nthing everyone who said, if you want to see your dad, go, and leave your sister alone.
It is NOT YOUR JOB to be "family manager." It is not your job, not your duty, and not your business to tell mentallly competent adult relatives how to deal with one another. If they don't get along, it's sad, but you can't do anything about it. If your dad thinks your sister's kids are "feral" and your sister doesn't encourage a relationship with their grandfather, that's too bad, maybe your dad WOULD benefit from seeing the kids, but it's not your place and not your business - it's up to your sister.
Being a family manager - for her own good, of course! - will only generate resentment and pushback from your sister. Please don't try. You can tell her you are going to go visit your dad, and if she wants to join you she can - but then, for Pete's sake, let it go. Don't push her or guilt-trip her into visiting.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 7:32 AM on October 24, 2010
It is NOT YOUR JOB to be "family manager." It is not your job, not your duty, and not your business to tell mentallly competent adult relatives how to deal with one another. If they don't get along, it's sad, but you can't do anything about it. If your dad thinks your sister's kids are "feral" and your sister doesn't encourage a relationship with their grandfather, that's too bad, maybe your dad WOULD benefit from seeing the kids, but it's not your place and not your business - it's up to your sister.
Being a family manager - for her own good, of course! - will only generate resentment and pushback from your sister. Please don't try. You can tell her you are going to go visit your dad, and if she wants to join you she can - but then, for Pete's sake, let it go. Don't push her or guilt-trip her into visiting.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 7:32 AM on October 24, 2010
Best answer: IMHO you need to learn to detach from your family's issues. Or at least acknowledge that listening to family rehash their issues triggers issues within yourself. Even though they're behaving like immature little sh*ts sometimes, your father and sister are still both independent adults responsible for their own behaviors. They are responsible, not you.
I'm also an oldest sister from a crazy family (thank god no schizophrenia in my siblings though, just generic upbringing-related eccentricities). I've found that it's very easy to lose your adult identity in the company of family, and slip back into the fixer's role when home (especially when everyone is there). I lose my identity again and become the "fixer"... even though nothing really gets fixed (just as it hasn't for the past ~30 years), and I leave feeling resentful, guilty, and like I failed them somehow.
Those feelings are wrong. Because no matter what I/you choose to do, your sister has made decisions about how to remember her childhood that are independent of you, your dad, or anyone. Your dad has also made decisions as to how he wants to perceive his family, independent of you. You are WAY over-estimating how much power you have over these two autonomous individuals, in spite of the fact they're family.
I echo the sentiment that there is no point in comparing memories. Ex. I never saw firsthand the things my dad did to my sister (he wanted to be an angel parent, and my sister was the only one who saw through the facade, so she was the only one he beat when he was angry; I never saw it; her memories of dad will always be different than mine).
What has helped me: distance with love. I can love my family members (even though they don't get along) and I can SUPPORT my family members to be healthy people (even though they don't recognize it). But for my own mental health, I can't be near people who choose to rage in unhealthy conflicts. Regardless of what the facts were, I can choose not to support them in unhealthy, drama-seeking behaviors.
posted by human ecologist at 9:17 AM on October 24, 2010
I'm also an oldest sister from a crazy family (thank god no schizophrenia in my siblings though, just generic upbringing-related eccentricities). I've found that it's very easy to lose your adult identity in the company of family, and slip back into the fixer's role when home (especially when everyone is there). I lose my identity again and become the "fixer"... even though nothing really gets fixed (just as it hasn't for the past ~30 years), and I leave feeling resentful, guilty, and like I failed them somehow.
Those feelings are wrong. Because no matter what I/you choose to do, your sister has made decisions about how to remember her childhood that are independent of you, your dad, or anyone. Your dad has also made decisions as to how he wants to perceive his family, independent of you. You are WAY over-estimating how much power you have over these two autonomous individuals, in spite of the fact they're family.
I echo the sentiment that there is no point in comparing memories. Ex. I never saw firsthand the things my dad did to my sister (he wanted to be an angel parent, and my sister was the only one who saw through the facade, so she was the only one he beat when he was angry; I never saw it; her memories of dad will always be different than mine).
What has helped me: distance with love. I can love my family members (even though they don't get along) and I can SUPPORT my family members to be healthy people (even though they don't recognize it). But for my own mental health, I can't be near people who choose to rage in unhealthy conflicts. Regardless of what the facts were, I can choose not to support them in unhealthy, drama-seeking behaviors.
- Is there a way to get them for one week to not hash up all the problems and things that went wrong?
posted by human ecologist at 9:17 AM on October 24, 2010
Best answer: I know how it feels to sit there in a room with a family member (or members) with absolute memory (and somewhat martyred and patronizing attitude about things for which are disproved by overwhelming evidence (such as emails, photos, middle-school report cards, sports trophies, scrapbooks made at the time by the person whose memory has nothing to do with reality.)
Certain people, like some of our family members and Sarah Palin, seem to be completely okay with saying whatever they want to say whenever they want to say it – especially if it makes them look or feel better - even when the facts on the ground refute their claims.
All you can do is not be that way.
It’s difficult to communicate with people who want see things on the context of the world they made up in their own heads instead of the real world. Unless you are a mental health professional working with such a person, there’s not much you can do.
I understand your hope of getting them together, but maybe you should shelve that idea until you see some changes in one of them - which may never happen.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 10:30 AM on October 24, 2010 [1 favorite]
Certain people, like some of our family members and Sarah Palin, seem to be completely okay with saying whatever they want to say whenever they want to say it – especially if it makes them look or feel better - even when the facts on the ground refute their claims.
All you can do is not be that way.
It’s difficult to communicate with people who want see things on the context of the world they made up in their own heads instead of the real world. Unless you are a mental health professional working with such a person, there’s not much you can do.
I understand your hope of getting them together, but maybe you should shelve that idea until you see some changes in one of them - which may never happen.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 10:30 AM on October 24, 2010 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Thanks everyone. This helped me put this in perspective. I am a fixer. I tend to want to see my father in a good light (he was my primary caretaker as an infant and child, and was very kind and loving to me). I want my sister to get along with him better, but I realize that I cannot make them get along. My sister has a different take on my father. She grew up when my brother was out of control and my parents did not handle it well. I will probably just visit Dad on my own.
(I just wanted them to realize how awesome they both are [sister and father], which is childish wishful thinking on my part).
posted by wandering_not_lost at 1:05 PM on October 24, 2010
(I just wanted them to realize how awesome they both are [sister and father], which is childish wishful thinking on my part).
posted by wandering_not_lost at 1:05 PM on October 24, 2010
- I just wanted them to realize how awesome they both are [sister and father], which is childish wishful thinking on my part
posted by human ecologist at 1:27 PM on October 24, 2010
Why isn't your brother getting medical treatment, out of curiosity?
posted by luke1249 at 7:35 PM on October 24, 2010
posted by luke1249 at 7:35 PM on October 24, 2010
I know I'm late to the party here but: take your laptop to see your Dad and Skype-video with your sister and her kids! Maybe you can make a regular thing of it if your Dad has a computer or if you can rig him an ipad or something (provided you have the money for that).
posted by blue_bicycle at 5:35 PM on January 29, 2011
posted by blue_bicycle at 5:35 PM on January 29, 2011
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If your dad brings her up, simply reiterate that she is doing a good job with the children and that you would be sure to tell him if that were not so, or if things changed. Then change the subject. Tell him you want to have a pleasant visit. I bet he'll go along with it.
And please realize there is only so much control (read:little) regarding what other people say or think in your presence.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 6:47 PM on October 23, 2010 [2 favorites]