Whispering Chinese?
October 4, 2010 6:52 PM Subscribe
Can you whisper in Chinese and be understood?
We English speakers can whisper because tone-of-voice doesn't affect how we parse words out of continuous speech.
But in Chinese the frequency modulation of the voice is part of differentiating phonemes. What would, to English ears, seem to be the same sound means different things if the frequency of the voice is rising, steady, falling... or so I vaguely understand it. I know that when Chinese phonemes are represented in English they include an approximation of consonant and vowel sounds, but they also include a digit to indicate what voice tone gets used.
Whispering is like speaking except that the vocal cords don't vibrate. Instead, you generate a hissing noise -- and that can't be modulated the way your voice can be. Consonant sounds and vowel sounds still come through, but it doesn't seem obvious how tones could be represented.
So if someone whispers Chinese, is there enough information left to avoid ambiguity?
We English speakers can whisper because tone-of-voice doesn't affect how we parse words out of continuous speech.
But in Chinese the frequency modulation of the voice is part of differentiating phonemes. What would, to English ears, seem to be the same sound means different things if the frequency of the voice is rising, steady, falling... or so I vaguely understand it. I know that when Chinese phonemes are represented in English they include an approximation of consonant and vowel sounds, but they also include a digit to indicate what voice tone gets used.
Whispering is like speaking except that the vocal cords don't vibrate. Instead, you generate a hissing noise -- and that can't be modulated the way your voice can be. Consonant sounds and vowel sounds still come through, but it doesn't seem obvious how tones could be represented.
So if someone whispers Chinese, is there enough information left to avoid ambiguity?
Response by poster: You can use your tongue and lips to control filtration, which is what we do to create different vowel sounds. That's not the same as changing pitch.
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 7:01 PM on October 4, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 7:01 PM on October 4, 2010 [1 favorite]
It looks like there are some tonal differences, as well as volume based ones, just looking around in a google search:
Tone Recognition of Chinese Whispered Speech
TONE PRODUCTION IN WHISPERED MANDARIN
posted by zabuni at 7:03 PM on October 4, 2010
Tone Recognition of Chinese Whispered Speech
TONE PRODUCTION IN WHISPERED MANDARIN
posted by zabuni at 7:03 PM on October 4, 2010
You might want to compare the the whispering/humming used in the Pirahã language
posted by plinth at 7:11 PM on October 4, 2010
posted by plinth at 7:11 PM on October 4, 2010
Best answer: Speaking as a Chinese person, I've definitely talked quietly with another person before... Unless you're looking for a technical explanation.
I know there's usually the joke that when a foreigner tries to speak Chinese, they end up saying something completely different to what they mean. But (for mandarin anyway) native speakers, it's pretty hard to accidentally say a sentence which means something else entirely. For one or two words, maybe.
You're much more likely to get the wrong meaning by mishearing the words (just like in English) than by two different words having the same sound.
Anyway, English isn't exactly a monotonal language, there's rising and falling as well. Wouldn't there be an inflection every time you try to whisper a question?
posted by fallsauce at 7:38 PM on October 4, 2010 [2 favorites]
I know there's usually the joke that when a foreigner tries to speak Chinese, they end up saying something completely different to what they mean. But (for mandarin anyway) native speakers, it's pretty hard to accidentally say a sentence which means something else entirely. For one or two words, maybe.
You're much more likely to get the wrong meaning by mishearing the words (just like in English) than by two different words having the same sound.
Anyway, English isn't exactly a monotonal language, there's rising and falling as well. Wouldn't there be an inflection every time you try to whisper a question?
posted by fallsauce at 7:38 PM on October 4, 2010 [2 favorites]
Best answer: English speakers focus a lot on the fact that Chinese is a tonal language. True, the tones are part of the language but you're forgetting how important context is. If you're speaking Chinese and get a few tones wrong, people can still understand you because of context. Its just a part of pronunciation- English can still be understood if the speaker's pronunciation is not standard. Of course, if they have awful pronunciation and say everything incorrectly, that's a different story.
As far as scientific explanation goes re: pitch and whispering, I don't know. But I just whispered to myself in Chinese, and I could hear the tones. I've also been whispered to in Chinese and could understand without a problem....and I've lip-read Chinese, too.
posted by bearette at 8:05 PM on October 4, 2010 [3 favorites]
As far as scientific explanation goes re: pitch and whispering, I don't know. But I just whispered to myself in Chinese, and I could hear the tones. I've also been whispered to in Chinese and could understand without a problem....and I've lip-read Chinese, too.
posted by bearette at 8:05 PM on October 4, 2010 [3 favorites]
Theoretically whispering in English should mean that the voicing/voiceless contrast for consonants should also not be present (or be much less pronounced), but this doesn't interfere with our ability to distinguish minimal pairs. So either context is helping out a lot, or something else is going on that might be at play in Chinese too.
posted by lollusc at 8:07 PM on October 4, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by lollusc at 8:07 PM on October 4, 2010 [1 favorite]
I just thought of something....maybe pitch and tones are not the same thing. When you speak Chinese and speak different tones, the pitch of your voice does not really change...i.e. some people have low-pitched voices, some high-pitched...all those people can speak Chinese. So I think tones are expressed in another way besides changing pitch, but I don't have the word for it.
posted by bearette at 8:08 PM on October 4, 2010
posted by bearette at 8:08 PM on October 4, 2010
Best answer: i speak mandarin chinese and i have definitely been able to whisper in chinese and be understood by other chinese speakers
posted by raw sugar at 8:38 PM on October 4, 2010
posted by raw sugar at 8:38 PM on October 4, 2010
Response by poster: OK, then. Apparently there's more to tone than I thought.
And the point about the contribution of context is well taken, too.
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 9:26 PM on October 4, 2010
And the point about the contribution of context is well taken, too.
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 9:26 PM on October 4, 2010
> I just whispered to myself in Chinese
Just want to say, this is sheer poetry.
posted by AmbroseChapel at 9:47 PM on October 4, 2010 [6 favorites]
Just want to say, this is sheer poetry.
posted by AmbroseChapel at 9:47 PM on October 4, 2010 [6 favorites]
Yeah, pitch and tone are not quite the same. (I am a linguist, but not a phonetician). In English intonation, pitch is only one of the factors involved: others include volume, and vowel length, for example. In a tone language like Chinese, I think pitch IS the main thing, but it is relative pitch, not absolute, so a high tone for a speaker with a low voice might be lower than a low tone for a speaker with a high voice. We calibrate our interpretation of tone based on the person's speech in general. Volume or other factors that can still be controlled while whispering may correlate with tone enough that they can be a clue in ambiguous cases, but I'm not sure about that.
posted by lollusc at 11:12 PM on October 4, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by lollusc at 11:12 PM on October 4, 2010 [1 favorite]
Best answer: "We English speakers can whisper because tone-of-voice doesn't affect how we parse words out of continuous speech."
This isn't why we can whisper. In fact English speakers shouldn't be able to whisper for the same reason you're thinking that Chinese people shouldn't be able to (and be understood). In English voiced and voiceless sounds are contrastive, meaning that a voicing distinction should lead to a different meaning of word. The only difference between "pad" and "bad" is the voicelessness/voicing of the p/b. Same is true for t/d, k/g, f/v, th in "thigh" versus "thy", and several other English sound pairs. When we whisper, there is no voicing, so these distinctions are not preserved. Based on that criteria alone, we shouldn't be able to hear them.
BUT, whispering isn't simply turning off the voicing. The lack of voicing is an outcome of the shift in phonation type. But the distinctions are compensated for in other ways (some of the speech information is still lost, which leads to parsing confusion anyway). In English we would mess with the amount of aspiration perhaps, or the length of the sound, or the shape of the lips/mouth/tongue. Go ahead and whisper "pat" and "bat"...they ARE the same and they ARE different.
I don't know enough about the acoustics of tone and phonation to directly answer your question. But I can tell you that the information lost with this change in phonation gets approximated in other ways. Some of those ways don't even use the vocal apparatus! People gotta whisper and they're not going to be prevented from doing so by the limits of their language. Which makes it possible for speakers of Chinese, Chinese Sign Language (or any other sign language for that matter) to whisper, yell, sing, use rising intonation, do falsetto voice, whatever.
posted by iamkimiam at 2:27 AM on October 5, 2010 [11 favorites]
This isn't why we can whisper. In fact English speakers shouldn't be able to whisper for the same reason you're thinking that Chinese people shouldn't be able to (and be understood). In English voiced and voiceless sounds are contrastive, meaning that a voicing distinction should lead to a different meaning of word. The only difference between "pad" and "bad" is the voicelessness/voicing of the p/b. Same is true for t/d, k/g, f/v, th in "thigh" versus "thy", and several other English sound pairs. When we whisper, there is no voicing, so these distinctions are not preserved. Based on that criteria alone, we shouldn't be able to hear them.
BUT, whispering isn't simply turning off the voicing. The lack of voicing is an outcome of the shift in phonation type. But the distinctions are compensated for in other ways (some of the speech information is still lost, which leads to parsing confusion anyway). In English we would mess with the amount of aspiration perhaps, or the length of the sound, or the shape of the lips/mouth/tongue. Go ahead and whisper "pat" and "bat"...they ARE the same and they ARE different.
I don't know enough about the acoustics of tone and phonation to directly answer your question. But I can tell you that the information lost with this change in phonation gets approximated in other ways. Some of those ways don't even use the vocal apparatus! People gotta whisper and they're not going to be prevented from doing so by the limits of their language. Which makes it possible for speakers of Chinese, Chinese Sign Language (or any other sign language for that matter) to whisper, yell, sing, use rising intonation, do falsetto voice, whatever.
posted by iamkimiam at 2:27 AM on October 5, 2010 [11 favorites]
Whistling a tune doesn't engage the vocal chords, but you can definitely vary the pitch, otherwise you'd only be able to whistle one note.
I can't speak much Chinese beyond an introductory level, but I just whispered a few words to see if I could whisper in different tones. It is very easy and intuitive. For an English equivalent, try whispering:
Stop.
and:
Stop?
It's not hard to whisper the rising tone of the question in the second example.
posted by surenoproblem at 4:52 AM on October 5, 2010
I can't speak much Chinese beyond an introductory level, but I just whispered a few words to see if I could whisper in different tones. It is very easy and intuitive. For an English equivalent, try whispering:
Stop.
and:
Stop?
It's not hard to whisper the rising tone of the question in the second example.
posted by surenoproblem at 4:52 AM on October 5, 2010
Oh great work Iamkimiam. Someone just walked in and found me whispering "thy/thigh, pat/bat" to myself.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:55 AM on October 5, 2010
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:55 AM on October 5, 2010
iamkimiam, mark me a fan of your post as well. Superb.
posted by IAmBroom at 7:03 AM on October 5, 2010
posted by IAmBroom at 7:03 AM on October 5, 2010
Fascinating stuff. I never even thought of whispering as something different from ordinary speech. Thanks!
posted by archagon at 4:29 AM on October 7, 2010
posted by archagon at 4:29 AM on October 7, 2010
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by mittens at 6:59 PM on October 4, 2010 [1 favorite]