Help my broken boy-picker pick better
September 20, 2010 10:32 AM Subscribe
Impaired judgment about men... is this a good guy?
Question is anonymous because I don't want it attached to my (non-personal) posting history.
Late 20s woman, bad childhood role models, crappy dating history, blah blah. I had one very serious relationship that turned abusive, and a series of short-ish (2 months - 1 year) relationships with nice guys who really didn't get me.
This guy I'm dating now is better than all others in a few ways, and has a few traits that also really bother me. I'd love to hear your opinion, hive mind.
We've been long-distance for about 3 months, in person for about a month. We met through friends and have met each other's friends (but not family) at this point. He's late 20s also.
The good things:
- Sex. Absolutely amazing, truly compatible sex. About the best I've ever had. I love a dominant man who, um, pulls my hair. He's really great at it.
- Good communicator. I know where he stands and he makes sure he knows where I stand. If I'm uncomfortable, he notices and asks me about it. Best handling of my emotions of anyone I've ever dated.
- Emotions. It's very easy to be honest with him. He handles my emotions better than anyone I've dated. I feel okay getting upset with him. I feel okay being "real" with him. Example: I have some post-traumatic stress issues from my childhood. He made a remark that triggered me. I told him about it and felt very embarrassed and afraid it would be an issue. He responded "I am aware of your neuroses, but I still really like you and it's not an issue for me."
- Good traits: he's smart, ambitious, articulate, thoughtful, interests in common, etc.
- Sense of humor: He has a very dry, dark, cynical sense of humor and we get along very well
- Not jealous: Doesn't ask what I've been doing, I tell him about guy-friends, I live with male roommates that I'm really close to, doesn't make a big deal about things
Bad things:
- He's crude. Fart jokes, loves to talk about sex, etc. Not cultured, doesn't know about novels, film, etc. He's smart, but grew up working class and doesn't have a lot of exposure to the "finer things in life"
- He's messy, procrastinates, shows up late, misses appointments (with others, not me at this point).
- He's kind of self-centered. Loves to talk about himself, focuses on his life, his company. Has a hard time understanding other people's views (politically, psychologically). Thinks a lot of things are "bullshit".
- A wheeler-dealer type. Loves to get something for nothing, kind of cheap, likes to push to the limit to see what he can get away with. He told me that he went to a strip club recently, but it was okay because he didn't give the girls any money -- implying that that was showing good judgment.
I've brought these things up to him. He was a bit hurt that I was so critical, but dealt with it. They are just the way he is, though. That's not what he said, but it seems to be the case. Just his personality.
He's fallen in love with me and told me so yesterday. I'm still on the fence. I have a great time with him, but don't like a lot of things about him (as above).
Evaluations?
Question is anonymous because I don't want it attached to my (non-personal) posting history.
Late 20s woman, bad childhood role models, crappy dating history, blah blah. I had one very serious relationship that turned abusive, and a series of short-ish (2 months - 1 year) relationships with nice guys who really didn't get me.
This guy I'm dating now is better than all others in a few ways, and has a few traits that also really bother me. I'd love to hear your opinion, hive mind.
We've been long-distance for about 3 months, in person for about a month. We met through friends and have met each other's friends (but not family) at this point. He's late 20s also.
The good things:
- Sex. Absolutely amazing, truly compatible sex. About the best I've ever had. I love a dominant man who, um, pulls my hair. He's really great at it.
- Good communicator. I know where he stands and he makes sure he knows where I stand. If I'm uncomfortable, he notices and asks me about it. Best handling of my emotions of anyone I've ever dated.
- Emotions. It's very easy to be honest with him. He handles my emotions better than anyone I've dated. I feel okay getting upset with him. I feel okay being "real" with him. Example: I have some post-traumatic stress issues from my childhood. He made a remark that triggered me. I told him about it and felt very embarrassed and afraid it would be an issue. He responded "I am aware of your neuroses, but I still really like you and it's not an issue for me."
- Good traits: he's smart, ambitious, articulate, thoughtful, interests in common, etc.
- Sense of humor: He has a very dry, dark, cynical sense of humor and we get along very well
- Not jealous: Doesn't ask what I've been doing, I tell him about guy-friends, I live with male roommates that I'm really close to, doesn't make a big deal about things
Bad things:
- He's crude. Fart jokes, loves to talk about sex, etc. Not cultured, doesn't know about novels, film, etc. He's smart, but grew up working class and doesn't have a lot of exposure to the "finer things in life"
- He's messy, procrastinates, shows up late, misses appointments (with others, not me at this point).
- He's kind of self-centered. Loves to talk about himself, focuses on his life, his company. Has a hard time understanding other people's views (politically, psychologically). Thinks a lot of things are "bullshit".
- A wheeler-dealer type. Loves to get something for nothing, kind of cheap, likes to push to the limit to see what he can get away with. He told me that he went to a strip club recently, but it was okay because he didn't give the girls any money -- implying that that was showing good judgment.
I've brought these things up to him. He was a bit hurt that I was so critical, but dealt with it. They are just the way he is, though. That's not what he said, but it seems to be the case. Just his personality.
He's fallen in love with me and told me so yesterday. I'm still on the fence. I have a great time with him, but don't like a lot of things about him (as above).
Evaluations?
It's still really early in your relationship, so I think it's going to be difficult for any of us to say accurately whether this guy is "bad" or "good" for you in any real sense. It could be that all the negatives you've listed are just little accidental details, while the positive traits are the real, important features of his personality. Or it could be the reverse. He could treat you better and better as time goes on, or he could treat you worse and worse. You've only been together in the same place for a month-- who really knows?
If you're worried, though, what you might do is to try to harness some of the (relative) objectivity and distance you have at present, and apply it in the service of your future self. Try this: think about the relationship six months from now, and try writing down some things that it will need to provide in order to make you happy-- things like "We have supportive conversations about my feelings," "We share jokes," "I feel safe being emotional," etc. Then think about your previous bad relationships and your fears about this guy, and write down some things that you worry might happen if the relationship goes south in the future-- things like, "He does a lot of selfish things," or "He's always late for dates with me," or whatever. Then, promise yourself that six months hence, you'll revisit those lists, and if the relationship has grown to have more features of the "bad" list than the "good" list, that you'll break up, no negotiation, no questions asked. An exercise like that might help reassure you that you won't end up getting sucked into something unhealthy that you can't escape, leaving you free to focus on enjoying your relationship in the present-- which is probably the best thing you can do at this point, anyway.
posted by Bardolph at 10:48 AM on September 20, 2010 [4 favorites]
If you're worried, though, what you might do is to try to harness some of the (relative) objectivity and distance you have at present, and apply it in the service of your future self. Try this: think about the relationship six months from now, and try writing down some things that it will need to provide in order to make you happy-- things like "We have supportive conversations about my feelings," "We share jokes," "I feel safe being emotional," etc. Then think about your previous bad relationships and your fears about this guy, and write down some things that you worry might happen if the relationship goes south in the future-- things like, "He does a lot of selfish things," or "He's always late for dates with me," or whatever. Then, promise yourself that six months hence, you'll revisit those lists, and if the relationship has grown to have more features of the "bad" list than the "good" list, that you'll break up, no negotiation, no questions asked. An exercise like that might help reassure you that you won't end up getting sucked into something unhealthy that you can't escape, leaving you free to focus on enjoying your relationship in the present-- which is probably the best thing you can do at this point, anyway.
posted by Bardolph at 10:48 AM on September 20, 2010 [4 favorites]
I wasn't really sure about an answer here until I saw that he's long-distance.
This relationship will work fine as long as it's long-distance. If you lived nearer each other, or even together, he would drive you absolutely up a goddamn wall. It's not that he's a bad guy and it's not that there's anything wrong with your approach to life or relationships, it's that you both prioritize different ways of living your lives. So proceed accordingly.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 10:48 AM on September 20, 2010 [2 favorites]
This relationship will work fine as long as it's long-distance. If you lived nearer each other, or even together, he would drive you absolutely up a goddamn wall. It's not that he's a bad guy and it's not that there's anything wrong with your approach to life or relationships, it's that you both prioritize different ways of living your lives. So proceed accordingly.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 10:48 AM on September 20, 2010 [2 favorites]
All the bad things you list about him are stereotypical male traits. It's possible they're ingrained in him, it's possible he does them to show off, whatever, but be aware that he's far from alone in any of those respects. See what happens if you nudge rather than confront. As far as "the finer things in life", maybe doing them with you would spark his own interest (the wrong set of people can ruin an otherwise fun event).
If you really mean that you don't like a lot of things about him, though, then cut your losses and move on.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 10:50 AM on September 20, 2010
If you really mean that you don't like a lot of things about him, though, then cut your losses and move on.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 10:50 AM on September 20, 2010
The first two "bad things" are matters of personal taste. You have different senses of humor and standards of organization. Not deal-breakers.
The third and fourth items are annoying personality traits, but again not necessarily deal-breakers if you can accept that they're probably never going to change.
I agree with ThePinkSuperhero. It doesn't seem that you like this guy. If you liked him, you wouldn't be making a pro/con list.
posted by desjardins at 10:51 AM on September 20, 2010 [2 favorites]
The third and fourth items are annoying personality traits, but again not necessarily deal-breakers if you can accept that they're probably never going to change.
I agree with ThePinkSuperhero. It doesn't seem that you like this guy. If you liked him, you wouldn't be making a pro/con list.
posted by desjardins at 10:51 AM on September 20, 2010 [2 favorites]
You don't sound very compatible...he sounds like an awesome sex buddy, though, if you're up for that.
He doesn't sound like someone who would change a lot to please you, though.
Do you love him?
posted by Omnomnom at 10:51 AM on September 20, 2010 [2 favorites]
He doesn't sound like someone who would change a lot to please you, though.
Do you love him?
posted by Omnomnom at 10:51 AM on September 20, 2010 [2 favorites]
You don't have to settle for someone with these "bad" traits just because he happens to have a few good traits too. If you "don't like a lot of things about him" (your words), move on.
FWIW, this guy has too many bad traits for me to tolerate.
posted by murrey at 10:52 AM on September 20, 2010 [1 favorite]
FWIW, this guy has too many bad traits for me to tolerate.
posted by murrey at 10:52 AM on September 20, 2010 [1 favorite]
He sounds like a good guy, but you seem genuinely embarrassed by him. I've felt that way (or similar, both consciously and without realizing it myself) about otherwise great guys before, and it just didn't work. On the other hand, you'll never find someone who is perfect in every regard: he just doesn't exist.
It's up to you to decide how much you are willing to compromise. If you're still on the fence after three months, it's probably a lost cause.
posted by halogen at 10:55 AM on September 20, 2010
It's up to you to decide how much you are willing to compromise. If you're still on the fence after three months, it's probably a lost cause.
posted by halogen at 10:55 AM on September 20, 2010
I'm with desjardins, I have never made a pro/con list about someone I really liked, even though there are always things that annoy me about people (naturally).
I will also say that rather someone is a "good" guy can have very little bearing on whether you like them. The guy seems nice, I think you question is really more "do I like him?" which is impossible for us to answer.
posted by Saminal at 10:56 AM on September 20, 2010
I will also say that rather someone is a "good" guy can have very little bearing on whether you like them. The guy seems nice, I think you question is really more "do I like him?" which is impossible for us to answer.
posted by Saminal at 10:56 AM on September 20, 2010
In my perhaps-paranoid mind, the "wheeler-dealer" and "self-centered" traits actually combine with the "good communicator" and "good with emotions" traits to form a screaming red ball of "manipulative, narcissistic asshole." But honestly if I hadn't been primed with your relationship history, I probably wouldn't have made that association.
But overall, everyone above is right - just because the guy is good on paper and in bed, doesn't mean you have to stay with him if it doesn't quite feel right.
posted by restless_nomad at 10:58 AM on September 20, 2010 [4 favorites]
But overall, everyone above is right - just because the guy is good on paper and in bed, doesn't mean you have to stay with him if it doesn't quite feel right.
posted by restless_nomad at 10:58 AM on September 20, 2010 [4 favorites]
The thing that stands out to me is that those bad things, while not necessarily dealbreakers, are things that are unlikely to change. The burp-and-farters of the world tend to remain that way -- I disagree that these are "stereotypical male traits." Class stereotype here, not gender. Are you okay with somebody who is, well, crass? Are you looking for a long-term relationship, and kids; if yes, will you be cool with him parenting like he was parented, dirty jokes and no visits to the opera house?
Nth sounds like a nice friend, but for it to be a sustainable relationship you'd have to be cool with the "working class" yuk-yuk I-didn't-tip-the-strippers stuff, and it doesn't sound like you are. With people like that I tend to be a little worried that I would eventually come home to find out that they had spent all our savings on something sold by a door-to-door salesman, or are having "toxins" removed via their feet, or whatever, also stop picking your goddam nose right now you @#$(. And it is not terribly ethical to ball people you don't have a lot of respect for, I feel.
posted by kmennie at 11:01 AM on September 20, 2010 [2 favorites]
Nth sounds like a nice friend, but for it to be a sustainable relationship you'd have to be cool with the "working class" yuk-yuk I-didn't-tip-the-strippers stuff, and it doesn't sound like you are. With people like that I tend to be a little worried that I would eventually come home to find out that they had spent all our savings on something sold by a door-to-door salesman, or are having "toxins" removed via their feet, or whatever, also stop picking your goddam nose right now you @#$(. And it is not terribly ethical to ball people you don't have a lot of respect for, I feel.
posted by kmennie at 11:01 AM on September 20, 2010 [2 favorites]
From what you've told us, it doesn't sound like there's anything wrong with this guy - he's not a 'bad' guy per se - but it does sound like he's not the right guy for *you*. Don't just take the statement above that the first two items are "just" matters of personal taste - that's the WHOLE POINT when you're involved with someone (or not), whether or not there are things you can deal with about them. It sounds to me like these are things that you just can't get over and THAT'S OKAY.
For example, #2. It would be fine if he was open and inquisitive and secure in himself and could just say "Never read that" but if he gets angry and defensive and goes off on a treatise about the class system every time you mention David Foster Wallace, this isn't going to be a fun relationship.
You're dating long distance right now so none of these things are a real problem. I am pretty sure, based on what you have told us here, that they would become a real problem quicker if you were dating IRL, and you wouldn't need to come here to ask us whether or not this guy is the guy for you. You'd be pretty sure because being with him wouldn't be fun and you would be annoyed and you'd figure it out pretty quickly that you just weren't compatible.
posted by micawber at 11:07 AM on September 20, 2010 [1 favorite]
For example, #2. It would be fine if he was open and inquisitive and secure in himself and could just say "Never read that" but if he gets angry and defensive and goes off on a treatise about the class system every time you mention David Foster Wallace, this isn't going to be a fun relationship.
You're dating long distance right now so none of these things are a real problem. I am pretty sure, based on what you have told us here, that they would become a real problem quicker if you were dating IRL, and you wouldn't need to come here to ask us whether or not this guy is the guy for you. You'd be pretty sure because being with him wouldn't be fun and you would be annoyed and you'd figure it out pretty quickly that you just weren't compatible.
posted by micawber at 11:07 AM on September 20, 2010 [1 favorite]
I'm sorry to be absolutist on this point, but I have one big rule: Never date a shit tipper.
Does he think those women were taking off their clothes because it sexually excites them? On a bad night a stripper can be in the hole for how much it costs her to get on the dance floor -- but she expects to make it back. By being paid. In tips.
The other stuff you said, I'd be offering perspective, asking questions, that kind of thing. But shit-tipping is a no-go zone in my experienced opinion.
posted by endless_forms at 11:09 AM on September 20, 2010 [13 favorites]
Does he think those women were taking off their clothes because it sexually excites them? On a bad night a stripper can be in the hole for how much it costs her to get on the dance floor -- but she expects to make it back. By being paid. In tips.
The other stuff you said, I'd be offering perspective, asking questions, that kind of thing. But shit-tipping is a no-go zone in my experienced opinion.
posted by endless_forms at 11:09 AM on September 20, 2010 [13 favorites]
I can't give you an overall picture based on the limited information presented here. But I saw some very specific flags that tell me that you are seeing him with rose-tinted glasses:
"Good traits: he's smart, ambitious, articulate, thoughtful"
"- He's messy, procrastinates, shows up late, misses appointments (with others, not me at this point)."
He is not ambitious. Ambitious people do not procrastinate, and most of them do not miss appointments unless they are hammering out critical sales - and even then rarely because they do not disregard others' time, even outside of business. He may tell you he wants to grow his business, but you give no concrete examples of ambition and two concrete examples against real ambition.
"- He's kind of self-centered. Loves to talk about himself, focuses on his life, his company. Has a hard time understanding other people's views (politically, psychologically). Thinks a lot of things are "bullshit"."
He is not articulate or thoughtful. He may treat you well since the sex is excellent, but the way he treats others is the way he will treat you when sex isn't enough. Do you want to be on the receiving end of this behavior when you voice an opinion he doesn't agree with?
I'd say you need to take a breath and make sure you're being honest with yourself.
posted by Tehhund at 11:15 AM on September 20, 2010 [7 favorites]
"Good traits: he's smart, ambitious, articulate, thoughtful"
"- He's messy, procrastinates, shows up late, misses appointments (with others, not me at this point)."
He is not ambitious. Ambitious people do not procrastinate, and most of them do not miss appointments unless they are hammering out critical sales - and even then rarely because they do not disregard others' time, even outside of business. He may tell you he wants to grow his business, but you give no concrete examples of ambition and two concrete examples against real ambition.
"- He's kind of self-centered. Loves to talk about himself, focuses on his life, his company. Has a hard time understanding other people's views (politically, psychologically). Thinks a lot of things are "bullshit"."
He is not articulate or thoughtful. He may treat you well since the sex is excellent, but the way he treats others is the way he will treat you when sex isn't enough. Do you want to be on the receiving end of this behavior when you voice an opinion he doesn't agree with?
I'd say you need to take a breath and make sure you're being honest with yourself.
posted by Tehhund at 11:15 AM on September 20, 2010 [7 favorites]
FWIW, anon, your boy sounds a lot like my husband, minus the strip club part. You don't mention if he has any interest in learning about novels/film/whatever, but my husband grew up in much the same way, but with a great big slug of intellectual curiosity added on.
He and I both grew up in poor, rural areas with lower-middle class families, so I'm no blue blood myself, but I was a gifted kid with parents who (at least) managed to indulge me when it came to books. I have a similar history to the one you describe, with the bad male role models and the abusive home and all that, but in my adulthood I come off like your typical large-city, private college-educated yuppie. My husband wasn't so fortunate, as he had undiagnosed dyslexia and ADD that kept him from hammering at the books the way I did. He's got a master's degree and makes twice the money that I do, but mention the War of 1812 or Pachelbel's Canon to him and you get a blank stare. He's one of the smartest humans I know, but he is never going to be the type of guy who reads Marcus Aurelius late into the night.
Do I regret this? Not for a second. He's the perfect guy for me. His slightly less classy younger brother that you're dating, though? It sounds like you don't respect him very much and that he might not be the guy for you. None of this means he's a bad person, though.
posted by timetoevolve at 11:15 AM on September 20, 2010 [6 favorites]
He and I both grew up in poor, rural areas with lower-middle class families, so I'm no blue blood myself, but I was a gifted kid with parents who (at least) managed to indulge me when it came to books. I have a similar history to the one you describe, with the bad male role models and the abusive home and all that, but in my adulthood I come off like your typical large-city, private college-educated yuppie. My husband wasn't so fortunate, as he had undiagnosed dyslexia and ADD that kept him from hammering at the books the way I did. He's got a master's degree and makes twice the money that I do, but mention the War of 1812 or Pachelbel's Canon to him and you get a blank stare. He's one of the smartest humans I know, but he is never going to be the type of guy who reads Marcus Aurelius late into the night.
Do I regret this? Not for a second. He's the perfect guy for me. His slightly less classy younger brother that you're dating, though? It sounds like you don't respect him very much and that he might not be the guy for you. None of this means he's a bad person, though.
posted by timetoevolve at 11:15 AM on September 20, 2010 [6 favorites]
By the way, as a partner of someone with PTSD, his "good" response to your being triggered isn't some badge of honor. It sounds kind of like a sugared up "I'm willing to put up with you."
posted by endless_forms at 11:19 AM on September 20, 2010 [4 favorites]
posted by endless_forms at 11:19 AM on September 20, 2010 [4 favorites]
Well you listed more good things than bad. Some of the bad things don't seem SO awful.
I'd say the worst part about him is that he doesn't like to try to understand other peoples thoughts or ideas. Not caring about anything that doesn't immediately send off an "I AGREE" signal in the brain is something that will be very tiresome to be around.
posted by zephyr_words at 11:27 AM on September 20, 2010
I'd say the worst part about him is that he doesn't like to try to understand other peoples thoughts or ideas. Not caring about anything that doesn't immediately send off an "I AGREE" signal in the brain is something that will be very tiresome to be around.
posted by zephyr_words at 11:27 AM on September 20, 2010
Like endless_forms, I'm not too thrilled with his whole "I am aware of your neuroses" bit.
I mean, hey, it's great that you can be up front with him about your emotions and all, but his phrasing was definitely a red flag to me.
posted by couch fort dinner party at 11:30 AM on September 20, 2010
I mean, hey, it's great that you can be up front with him about your emotions and all, but his phrasing was definitely a red flag to me.
posted by couch fort dinner party at 11:30 AM on September 20, 2010
Oh, wait, I just caught that he was sexually dominant. I've been around the BDSM world for about 10 years now, known lots and lots and lots of dominant men, and the good ones are never self-centered. It is hard for some women who have been abused to distinguish a dominant guy from a domineering guy, when some of the physical behaviors can be the same. And yeah, the sex can be awesome. The difference is that a dominant guy is not focused on himself. He's also in control of himself; while he may not like opera, he's not crude and he does not consistently miss appointments or otherwise flake out.
I stand by what I said before - it doesn't seem like you really like the guy anyway, but if you do stay with him, I'd proceed with caution. Set your bar very high; an honorable dominant man will meet it because he knows it takes a lot of trust for his partner to submit.
posted by desjardins at 11:52 AM on September 20, 2010 [2 favorites]
I stand by what I said before - it doesn't seem like you really like the guy anyway, but if you do stay with him, I'd proceed with caution. Set your bar very high; an honorable dominant man will meet it because he knows it takes a lot of trust for his partner to submit.
posted by desjardins at 11:52 AM on September 20, 2010 [2 favorites]
Just some thoughts:
We've been long-distance for about 3 months
Long-distance makes things seem much more romantic and bearable than they actually are in person sometimes.
in person for about a month.
If he says he has fallen in love with you after a month, and you really don't like him much after a month...two things: It's probably not going to get much better for you, and also, he's rushing things in a way that screams "red flag."
- Sex. Absolutely amazing, truly compatible sex. About the best I've ever had. I love a dominant man who, um, pulls my hair. He's really great at it.-
Good sex does not a good relationship make. You listed this first, too. Also, dom in bed can sometimes = issues. It may actually be better for you to find a less sexual guy who has a better personality match. JMO. Sorry.
Good communicator. I know where he stands and he makes sure he knows where I stand. If I'm uncomfortable, he notices and asks me about it. Best handling of my emotions of anyone I've ever dated.-
This sounds sort of like "blunt interrogation" to me, if I'm being really uncharitable. Also a controlling sort of trait. Interesting that he's "handling" your emotions.
- Sense of humor: He has a very dry, dark, cynical sense of humor and we get along very well
I hope "dark and cynical" is not just code for "asshole"
- Not jealous: Doesn't ask what I've been doing, I tell him about guy-friends, I live with male roommates that I'm really close to, doesn't make a big deal about things
This is not a positive trait. It is a not-negative trait.
Everyone else mentioned most other things.
posted by Nixy at 12:13 PM on September 20, 2010 [4 favorites]
We've been long-distance for about 3 months
Long-distance makes things seem much more romantic and bearable than they actually are in person sometimes.
in person for about a month.
If he says he has fallen in love with you after a month, and you really don't like him much after a month...two things: It's probably not going to get much better for you, and also, he's rushing things in a way that screams "red flag."
- Sex. Absolutely amazing, truly compatible sex. About the best I've ever had. I love a dominant man who, um, pulls my hair. He's really great at it.-
Good sex does not a good relationship make. You listed this first, too. Also, dom in bed can sometimes = issues. It may actually be better for you to find a less sexual guy who has a better personality match. JMO. Sorry.
Good communicator. I know where he stands and he makes sure he knows where I stand. If I'm uncomfortable, he notices and asks me about it. Best handling of my emotions of anyone I've ever dated.-
This sounds sort of like "blunt interrogation" to me, if I'm being really uncharitable. Also a controlling sort of trait. Interesting that he's "handling" your emotions.
- Sense of humor: He has a very dry, dark, cynical sense of humor and we get along very well
I hope "dark and cynical" is not just code for "asshole"
- Not jealous: Doesn't ask what I've been doing, I tell him about guy-friends, I live with male roommates that I'm really close to, doesn't make a big deal about things
This is not a positive trait. It is a not-negative trait.
Everyone else mentioned most other things.
posted by Nixy at 12:13 PM on September 20, 2010 [4 favorites]
If a guy likes to joke around and you don't like his sense of humor, it can become annoying, and grow into a serious irritant. Will you be able to overlook it? Time will tell. You don't need to decide about that now.
The part about his rationalizing his less-honorable behaviors could turn out to be a serious problem in your relationship. What if his idea of "real cheating" is different from yours, or he decides that telling the truth counts only if he's asked a direct question. Certain things you can anticipate and be very clear about, but if his honesty level is consistently different from yours, you shouldn't try to put up with it.
A lot of times "impaired judgment" about relationships is a result of wanting to be reasonable, and of tolerating or explaining away things that bother you, hurt you, or make you uncomfortable. Early on, a prospective boyfriend/girlfriend gives a lot of information about their habits and values, even while they're putting their best foot forward. You're not ignoring that stuff now, and that's good. Don't think you need to ignore your needs in favor of his. There's nothing unreasonable about refusing to spend time with someone because you don't like their values or don't enjoy their company.
And if he starts telling you you're "overreacting" or "unreasonable" because of something you feel, beware.
posted by wryly at 12:29 PM on September 20, 2010 [2 favorites]
The part about his rationalizing his less-honorable behaviors could turn out to be a serious problem in your relationship. What if his idea of "real cheating" is different from yours, or he decides that telling the truth counts only if he's asked a direct question. Certain things you can anticipate and be very clear about, but if his honesty level is consistently different from yours, you shouldn't try to put up with it.
A lot of times "impaired judgment" about relationships is a result of wanting to be reasonable, and of tolerating or explaining away things that bother you, hurt you, or make you uncomfortable. Early on, a prospective boyfriend/girlfriend gives a lot of information about their habits and values, even while they're putting their best foot forward. You're not ignoring that stuff now, and that's good. Don't think you need to ignore your needs in favor of his. There's nothing unreasonable about refusing to spend time with someone because you don't like their values or don't enjoy their company.
And if he starts telling you you're "overreacting" or "unreasonable" because of something you feel, beware.
posted by wryly at 12:29 PM on September 20, 2010 [2 favorites]
My boyfriend of 5+ years has some of the supposed "con" features you mention -- the fart jokes, not having a background in literature or art, can be messy, grew up more working-class than I did (e.g., I have a master's degree; he didn't go to college). In and of themselves, they don't actually say anything meaningful about him as a person.
However: what he does have, in spades, are a number of essential qualities -- among them curiosity, empathy, and generosity. That means, for example, he's genuinely interested in learning more about literature (one of the sweetest gestures he ever made was reading Joyce's Dubliners for me so that we could talk about it); he finds other people's feelings and points of view interesting and worthy of consideration, rather than dashing them off as bullshit; and he's also the single best tipper I've ever known, because he totally gets how incredibly hard it is to work for tips, whether as a waiter or a stripper.
Don't let great sex and a good sense of humor get in the way of seeing someone's real qualities -- which they most often show in relation to how they view and treat others (especially the others they're not currently sleeping with). Or, in the words of Don Draper on last week's Mad Men: "People tell you who they are but we ignore them, because we want them to be who we want them to be." (The fact that this insight comes from Draper is ironic, of course, but that's a derail.)
posted by scody at 12:34 PM on September 20, 2010 [9 favorites]
However: what he does have, in spades, are a number of essential qualities -- among them curiosity, empathy, and generosity. That means, for example, he's genuinely interested in learning more about literature (one of the sweetest gestures he ever made was reading Joyce's Dubliners for me so that we could talk about it); he finds other people's feelings and points of view interesting and worthy of consideration, rather than dashing them off as bullshit; and he's also the single best tipper I've ever known, because he totally gets how incredibly hard it is to work for tips, whether as a waiter or a stripper.
Don't let great sex and a good sense of humor get in the way of seeing someone's real qualities -- which they most often show in relation to how they view and treat others (especially the others they're not currently sleeping with). Or, in the words of Don Draper on last week's Mad Men: "People tell you who they are but we ignore them, because we want them to be who we want them to be." (The fact that this insight comes from Draper is ironic, of course, but that's a derail.)
posted by scody at 12:34 PM on September 20, 2010 [9 favorites]
You're already excusing bad behavior for him & accepting things you don't like. I vote "no". What you see is what you get, & you're going to get bored of making excuses for him.
posted by Ys at 12:48 PM on September 20, 2010
posted by Ys at 12:48 PM on September 20, 2010
He sounds like a fun guy, but given the time frame and the number of things you don't like, I'd say he's not (at this point) a keeper guy. Enjoy it for what it is, and see if over time the things you like happen more (or stop happening), and the things you like stop happening (or happen more.) Time's on your side with this one.
Having said that: if the sex weren't happening, would you stick with it? That's a good rule of thumb, whether you'd want to hang out with this person even if you weren't sleeping with them.
posted by davejay at 12:56 PM on September 20, 2010 [1 favorite]
Having said that: if the sex weren't happening, would you stick with it? That's a good rule of thumb, whether you'd want to hang out with this person even if you weren't sleeping with them.
posted by davejay at 12:56 PM on September 20, 2010 [1 favorite]
I think this one's up to you. I don't see any immediate danger here, so you have to go with your gut. Totally a matter of your taste.
You DO have the right to be selective. Don't allow your self any worry about who the next guy is or whether there will be a next one. (There will always be a next one.)
My malapropism of the day is: Nut up and make the call.
(I think you already know deep down, and you're not quite willing to punch it in yet, one way or the other.)
posted by Citrus at 12:59 PM on September 20, 2010 [1 favorite]
You DO have the right to be selective. Don't allow your self any worry about who the next guy is or whether there will be a next one. (There will always be a next one.)
My malapropism of the day is: Nut up and make the call.
(I think you already know deep down, and you're not quite willing to punch it in yet, one way or the other.)
posted by Citrus at 12:59 PM on September 20, 2010 [1 favorite]
The thing that stood out the most to me was:
He told me that he went to a strip club recently, but it was okay because he didn't give the girls any money -- implying that that was showing good judgment.
That seems only a short hop away from "I was with another girl, but it's okay because I just let her go down on me."
He uses people for his own satisfaction and thinks it's a good thing? That is so scary. How do you know he's not doing that to you? Him telling you that he loves you could just be another way to get what he wants from you.
By the way, as a partner of someone with PTSD, his "good" response to your being triggered isn't some badge of honor. It sounds kind of like a sugared up "I'm willing to put up with you."
posted by endless_forms at 12:19 PM
I'm with endless_forms on that one. If I found out that my partner had PTSD and I'd unwittingly triggered something, I would be apologizing and trying to figure out what I could do in the future not to have it happen again. I wouldn't be brushing it off with an "It's okay I know you're crazy" answer. My husband will give me the 'I know you're nuts' answer sometimes, but it's only after I've done something to upset him and I'm the one apologizing. Kind of like when I'm being super bitchy during PMS and I apologize after my hubby will say something like "I forgive you honey, you can't help you're crazy." Followed by laughing and cuddling.
I'm sorry to be absolutist on this point, but I have one big rule: Never date a shit tipper.
Here's another point that endless_forms is dead on about. If you want to know the real measure of a person look at how they treat people the see as 'below' them. If somebody is good to children, the elderly, and people in service industries then they are basically a good person. People who abuse their power over others are not good.
In my opinion your list of cons far outweighs your list of pros. I really think you need to cut your losses and get out now.
posted by TooFewShoes at 1:05 PM on September 20, 2010 [3 favorites]
He told me that he went to a strip club recently, but it was okay because he didn't give the girls any money -- implying that that was showing good judgment.
That seems only a short hop away from "I was with another girl, but it's okay because I just let her go down on me."
He uses people for his own satisfaction and thinks it's a good thing? That is so scary. How do you know he's not doing that to you? Him telling you that he loves you could just be another way to get what he wants from you.
By the way, as a partner of someone with PTSD, his "good" response to your being triggered isn't some badge of honor. It sounds kind of like a sugared up "I'm willing to put up with you."
posted by endless_forms at 12:19 PM
I'm with endless_forms on that one. If I found out that my partner had PTSD and I'd unwittingly triggered something, I would be apologizing and trying to figure out what I could do in the future not to have it happen again. I wouldn't be brushing it off with an "It's okay I know you're crazy" answer. My husband will give me the 'I know you're nuts' answer sometimes, but it's only after I've done something to upset him and I'm the one apologizing. Kind of like when I'm being super bitchy during PMS and I apologize after my hubby will say something like "I forgive you honey, you can't help you're crazy." Followed by laughing and cuddling.
I'm sorry to be absolutist on this point, but I have one big rule: Never date a shit tipper.
Here's another point that endless_forms is dead on about. If you want to know the real measure of a person look at how they treat people the see as 'below' them. If somebody is good to children, the elderly, and people in service industries then they are basically a good person. People who abuse their power over others are not good.
In my opinion your list of cons far outweighs your list of pros. I really think you need to cut your losses and get out now.
posted by TooFewShoes at 1:05 PM on September 20, 2010 [3 favorites]
I was about to write something very similar to TooFewShoes.
It's weird that he thinks it's OK to go to strip clubs as long as he doesn't tip the strippers. Why is he even talking to you about his visits to strip clubs? How is that supposed to make you feel? On one hand, it is good that he is honest about going to strip clubs. On the other, bragging about being too cheap to tip them is very disturbing to me.
I think you need to ask yourself if you are OK with dating someone who enjoys strip clubs. I know most men have been to strip clubs, but the ones which I get along with best seem to be the ones who didn't actually like the experience. In my mind, a strip club seems one step away from cheating.
I'm guessing most people here probably will disagree with me on this, but I can't imagine someone who enjoys strip clubs as being someone who also believes women are his equals.
posted by parakeetdog at 1:19 PM on September 20, 2010
It's weird that he thinks it's OK to go to strip clubs as long as he doesn't tip the strippers. Why is he even talking to you about his visits to strip clubs? How is that supposed to make you feel? On one hand, it is good that he is honest about going to strip clubs. On the other, bragging about being too cheap to tip them is very disturbing to me.
I think you need to ask yourself if you are OK with dating someone who enjoys strip clubs. I know most men have been to strip clubs, but the ones which I get along with best seem to be the ones who didn't actually like the experience. In my mind, a strip club seems one step away from cheating.
I'm guessing most people here probably will disagree with me on this, but I can't imagine someone who enjoys strip clubs as being someone who also believes women are his equals.
posted by parakeetdog at 1:19 PM on September 20, 2010
this isn't just that he's a shit tipper -- going to a strip club and enjoying the show, aka WOMEN'S HARD WORK without paying -- it's sexist crap. if he thinks he's savvy for treating working women as though he's entitled to see them strip, he is NOT someone i'd want to fall in love with. MAJOR RED FLAG.
posted by crawfo at 1:45 PM on September 20, 2010 [6 favorites]
posted by crawfo at 1:45 PM on September 20, 2010 [6 favorites]
You've got a strong masculine guy on your hands, but it sounds like he's not as mature as you'd like. I think the raw materials are there, but you would like more refinement. Those cons that you cite that have to do with personal responsibility you have a right to take issue with. But if the culture he comes from is different from yours, you have to respect that if you want to be with him. If he likes graphic talk and humor, you might be careful to criticize him because he might have trouble NOT taking it personally, as your example shows.
One of the overriding traits that's important in a partner is the ability to observe one's ego. If he can't take feedback without feeling like it's attacking his ego (gets defensive), then he might be harder to work with long term in a relationship.
As a feminine woman, be true to your own values and boundaries and test him to confirm whether he matches those or not. Don't compromise what's really important to you, but really be sure you know what actually IS important to you first.
posted by JasonMiller at 7:24 PM on September 20, 2010 [1 favorite]
One of the overriding traits that's important in a partner is the ability to observe one's ego. If he can't take feedback without feeling like it's attacking his ego (gets defensive), then he might be harder to work with long term in a relationship.
As a feminine woman, be true to your own values and boundaries and test him to confirm whether he matches those or not. Don't compromise what's really important to you, but really be sure you know what actually IS important to you first.
posted by JasonMiller at 7:24 PM on September 20, 2010 [1 favorite]
You're obviously aware of the pattern you have in choosing men. Does he have any of your "don't choose" traits?
FWIW, I would not call him a good guy. In fact, he would scare me. Remember, he might have a perfectly good "picker" and know exactly how to select and manage women who have been hurt in certain ways.
I'm incensed on your behalf that, after you explained how he triggered you, he said he "is aware of your neuroses and doesn't mind them." (Suggests either he didn't really understand anything or he figures your sensitivity in that area makes you exactly right for his purposes.) Telling you about the strippers, coupled with the fact that he isn't at all concerned about your living with and being friends with other men suggests to me that he sees women, not as equals and potential life partners, but strictly as sexual resources that he knows exactly how to "handle" while his signaling acceptance of your emotions is just a part of his technique.
I'd say, drop him completely, or at most enjoy the sex for a bit if you must but don't escalate.
posted by Anitanola at 8:36 PM on September 20, 2010
FWIW, I would not call him a good guy. In fact, he would scare me. Remember, he might have a perfectly good "picker" and know exactly how to select and manage women who have been hurt in certain ways.
I'm incensed on your behalf that, after you explained how he triggered you, he said he "is aware of your neuroses and doesn't mind them." (Suggests either he didn't really understand anything or he figures your sensitivity in that area makes you exactly right for his purposes.) Telling you about the strippers, coupled with the fact that he isn't at all concerned about your living with and being friends with other men suggests to me that he sees women, not as equals and potential life partners, but strictly as sexual resources that he knows exactly how to "handle" while his signaling acceptance of your emotions is just a part of his technique.
I'd say, drop him completely, or at most enjoy the sex for a bit if you must but don't escalate.
posted by Anitanola at 8:36 PM on September 20, 2010
Help my broken boy-picker pick better
I don't think you have a broken boy-picker or impaired judgment at all. You are not oblivious to this guy's bad traits. (Let's say for the sake of argument that "bad traits" = traits that will make for a miserable relationship, not necessarily things that make someone a Bad Person.) You see them and you know exactly what they are, and that they are bad signs.
I think that you are too good at getting along/making things work/smoothing out the situation/accepting the behavior of people who behave badly and/or have bad traits and show bad signs. Maybe you also think that you have to accept those things in order to get the things that you do want. Or you think of seriously misery-making traits as normal or at least common, and you think it is really rare to find people who don't have them.
In my humble opinion, the way for you to have a happy relationship in the future is to work on not accepting/accommodating bad behavior/traits, and cutting off relationships (including platonic ones) with people who display them as soon as you notice it rather than continuing to build the relationships.
posted by Ashley801 at 10:02 PM on September 20, 2010 [3 favorites]
I don't think you have a broken boy-picker or impaired judgment at all. You are not oblivious to this guy's bad traits. (Let's say for the sake of argument that "bad traits" = traits that will make for a miserable relationship, not necessarily things that make someone a Bad Person.) You see them and you know exactly what they are, and that they are bad signs.
I think that you are too good at getting along/making things work/smoothing out the situation/accepting the behavior of people who behave badly and/or have bad traits and show bad signs. Maybe you also think that you have to accept those things in order to get the things that you do want. Or you think of seriously misery-making traits as normal or at least common, and you think it is really rare to find people who don't have them.
In my humble opinion, the way for you to have a happy relationship in the future is to work on not accepting/accommodating bad behavior/traits, and cutting off relationships (including platonic ones) with people who display them as soon as you notice it rather than continuing to build the relationships.
posted by Ashley801 at 10:02 PM on September 20, 2010 [3 favorites]
I would be very wary. There are several things that would bother me a lot. In this article about warning signs of "dating a loser" (not crazy about the title, but whatever), he's possibly pinging on these items:
2 (it's way early to be declaring love, isn't it?)
4 (talking about going to see strippers? Really? This is weird. And how long 'til you start getting comparisons about your body versus theirs? Maybe you're already supposed to be thinking about that. Not cool.)
13 (self centered/late or doesn't show up/pushing limits/stiffing the strippers)
16 (cheap & strippers episode);
19 and possibly 12 (establishing that you have neuroses will come in handy if he wants to convince you/others that any concerns about him are "crazy"; he indicates that he's willing to put up with it, though -- you're so lucky).
Just so far. While on "best behavior." I understand that these may not be accurate, but there's too much pointing toward danger signs not to be extremely cautious. The problem is, if he is this type of person, he will be overwhelming you with charm, attention, trying to be everything you want during the honeymoon period, which makes it difficult to be objective. I personally wouldn't be able to tolerate the crudeness, self-centeredness/close-mindedness, cheapness, or mistreatment of _______ (strippers, service people, whatever). Also, in my experience (married 20+ years) being able to truly respect and admire your partner over the long term (along with trust) is vital to happiness a relationship. I'd put intellectual and emotional compatibility next, but they really interrelate.
posted by taz at 3:58 AM on September 21, 2010
2 (it's way early to be declaring love, isn't it?)
4 (talking about going to see strippers? Really? This is weird. And how long 'til you start getting comparisons about your body versus theirs? Maybe you're already supposed to be thinking about that. Not cool.)
13 (self centered/late or doesn't show up/pushing limits/stiffing the strippers)
16 (cheap & strippers episode);
19 and possibly 12 (establishing that you have neuroses will come in handy if he wants to convince you/others that any concerns about him are "crazy"; he indicates that he's willing to put up with it, though -- you're so lucky).
Just so far. While on "best behavior." I understand that these may not be accurate, but there's too much pointing toward danger signs not to be extremely cautious. The problem is, if he is this type of person, he will be overwhelming you with charm, attention, trying to be everything you want during the honeymoon period, which makes it difficult to be objective. I personally wouldn't be able to tolerate the crudeness, self-centeredness/close-mindedness, cheapness, or mistreatment of _______ (strippers, service people, whatever). Also, in my experience (married 20+ years) being able to truly respect and admire your partner over the long term (along with trust) is vital to happiness a relationship. I'd put intellectual and emotional compatibility next, but they really interrelate.
posted by taz at 3:58 AM on September 21, 2010
He handles my emotions better than anyone I've dated. I feel okay getting upset with him. I feel okay being "real" with him. Example: I have some post-traumatic stress issues from my childhood. He made a remark that triggered me. I told him about it and felt very embarrassed and afraid it would be an issue. He responded "I am aware of your neuroses, but I still really like you and it's not an issue for me."
Well, I'm not sure how literally to read that. Perhaps it's just good intentions clumsily expressed. But how can he be "aware of your neuroses" if you hadn't already explained them? By definition, PTSD triggers aren't something he could simply have known about, are they? To me this sounds a bit like, "don't worry, I've already noticed that you're high strung and it doesn't spoil my enjoyment of you". I think that if he cared, he would probably have asked for more information so he wouldn't upset you again. But it's hard to tell, I think you had to be there.
"Not jealous… [etc]" well I don't know why you're grateful for this when you could be grateful for so much more. Instead of not being jealous, why isn't he not murdering people, for example, and giving you the opportunity to be grateful that he's not murdering people? Doesn't he love you enough to go the extra mile?
"He's crude." Well, if he's crude and you're not, this is going to be an attraction killer. In fact I'm surprised you've lasted this long.
"Not cultured" but "grew up working class" oh puhleeze. He doesn't like fine aht because he doesn't know it exists, because his parents couldn't afford to buy him taste? If he's capable of changing a TV channel, he's capable of forming his own personal tastes, and he has, and those tastes aren't the same as yours.
I guess it depends how bothered you are about messiness and procrastination and showing up late, but you may not stick around long enough to be affected by these.
Self-centered and thinks other people are "bullshit"? Oh no, it gets worse. Do you think your exposing him to the finer things in life might civilise him?
A wheeler-dealer type, i.e. stingy and manipulative. Got strippers to strip for him for free, then boasted to you about it. Ding ding we have a winner! Yes, this guy is a real diamond in the rough!
If, indeed, he has fallen in love with you, I think you'd better not lead him on. You've painted a very unflattering picture of him here, which suggests that you probably do not love him or like him very much, or at least that you won't get along. Pending evidence to the contrary we should assume he really does have feelings, and you really shouldn't hurt his feelings more than strictly necessary. Therefore, my advice is to end it now.
posted by tel3path at 6:11 AM on September 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
Well, I'm not sure how literally to read that. Perhaps it's just good intentions clumsily expressed. But how can he be "aware of your neuroses" if you hadn't already explained them? By definition, PTSD triggers aren't something he could simply have known about, are they? To me this sounds a bit like, "don't worry, I've already noticed that you're high strung and it doesn't spoil my enjoyment of you". I think that if he cared, he would probably have asked for more information so he wouldn't upset you again. But it's hard to tell, I think you had to be there.
"Not jealous… [etc]" well I don't know why you're grateful for this when you could be grateful for so much more. Instead of not being jealous, why isn't he not murdering people, for example, and giving you the opportunity to be grateful that he's not murdering people? Doesn't he love you enough to go the extra mile?
"He's crude." Well, if he's crude and you're not, this is going to be an attraction killer. In fact I'm surprised you've lasted this long.
"Not cultured" but "grew up working class" oh puhleeze. He doesn't like fine aht because he doesn't know it exists, because his parents couldn't afford to buy him taste? If he's capable of changing a TV channel, he's capable of forming his own personal tastes, and he has, and those tastes aren't the same as yours.
I guess it depends how bothered you are about messiness and procrastination and showing up late, but you may not stick around long enough to be affected by these.
Self-centered and thinks other people are "bullshit"? Oh no, it gets worse. Do you think your exposing him to the finer things in life might civilise him?
A wheeler-dealer type, i.e. stingy and manipulative. Got strippers to strip for him for free, then boasted to you about it. Ding ding we have a winner! Yes, this guy is a real diamond in the rough!
If, indeed, he has fallen in love with you, I think you'd better not lead him on. You've painted a very unflattering picture of him here, which suggests that you probably do not love him or like him very much, or at least that you won't get along. Pending evidence to the contrary we should assume he really does have feelings, and you really shouldn't hurt his feelings more than strictly necessary. Therefore, my advice is to end it now.
posted by tel3path at 6:11 AM on September 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
I'm sorry that I made my last post sound very blunt and flippant. I do think, however, that you've described somebody who, whether or not the red flags turn out to be significant, has a number of flaws that make him incompatible with you. It also sounds like you're not that into him.
Meanwhile, he's saying he loves you. Either this is true, in which case it's unfair to lead him on; or he's manipulating you, which means DTMFA. Given the risk that it could be true, I don't think it would be fair to him to stick around just for the sex.
posted by tel3path at 10:16 AM on September 21, 2010
Meanwhile, he's saying he loves you. Either this is true, in which case it's unfair to lead him on; or he's manipulating you, which means DTMFA. Given the risk that it could be true, I don't think it would be fair to him to stick around just for the sex.
posted by tel3path at 10:16 AM on September 21, 2010
This thread is closed to new comments.
Read that again. You don't really like this guy. I don't see anything in your pro list (which can be summarized as "He's good on paper, treats me well, and we have great sex") that's going to outweigh the things you don't like about him. You can date someone you don't like for a little while, but sooner or later, not liking him is going to be a stumbling block in your relationship.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 10:44 AM on September 20, 2010 [3 favorites]