Taking this lowball badly, need perspective and good advice
September 3, 2010 12:58 PM Subscribe
My employer tried to lowball me severely on my salary. Am I making too much of this?
(CanadianBarFilter) After graduating from law school, I articled at a small boutique firm. Articling salaries are notoriously low in this city, so I was quite happy with the $37,000 I was offered. I really enjoyed the area of law the firm specializes in, got along very well with everyone in the office, the clients liked me, and the partners had only good things to say about my work. The partners assured me that I would be kept on after my articling year ended. So I completed articling, was called to the Bar, the partners took me and my family out for a fancy celebration, and then... nothing. I was still coming in for work every day, being paid at my articling salary, and the partner who had hired me kept putting off discussions about my associate salary. He kept saying, "Don't worry! Please don't think we're just stringing you along, we've just been so busy we haven't had the chance to draw up the offer. We'll have it next week."
Finally, nearly a month after being called, I went to his office again to ask if he could tell me anything. He said yes, and gave me the offer... $40,000. I felt like I'd been punched in the stomach. He seemed shocked at the look on my face and asked if that was not what I’d expected. I told him if he's only willing to give me $3000 over my articling salary, when salaries typically jump $15,000-20,000 for first year associates, then my performance must have been extremely disappointing. I also told him I knew they had offered their previous articling student, who rejected the offer and left the firm, $55,000.
The partner swore they’d made a big mistake, that they thought I was only making $30,000 and $40,000 would have been a fair raise, that they were very happy to have me and there were zero concerns about my performance, and promised to have a new offer for me after the weekend. He emailed me over the weekend with the new offer of $50,000 plus a $5,000 bonus if I meet my billing targets. He also explained that the economy is not what it was when they made the offer to the previous student. I get that, and the firm had always treated me well, so I accepted that it was an inadvertent error and not any attempt to screw me. I’m the only associate at the firm, and had no one else to compare my offer with. So I accepted the offer.
All was well until the receptionist mentioned to me that she was making $35,000. The receptionist is 22 years old and has no degrees or qualifications beyond a high school diploma. She started this job a couple of weeks after I started articling. At first she was making $30,000 and was given the $5000 raise after only 3 months of working here. In fact, the raise was meant to be only $4000, but she thought she was already making $32,000 (her own mistake) and so the managing partner rounded it up to $35,000 just because (she didn’t ask for more). She leaves every day at 5pm on the dot, while I regularly put in 10-11 hour days and come in on the weekends. Proportionally, she’s making almost the same money I am.
Now this knowledge is eating away at me. They'd tried to offer me only $5000 over what they'd been paying the receptionist for the past ten months. Clearly $5,000 is not much to the partners if they’re able to give that kind of raise to her after just three months, whereas I worked my ass off for an entire year to earn my raise. Ever since I learned this, I have been feeling extremely unhappy and unmotivated. I feel like I’ve been such a chump and that the partners must not value me much at all. Or worse, I have this nagging fear that I'm actually terrible at my job but they just don't want to say anything and are willing to keep me around as long as I'm cheap. I realize that's not rational, but it's something that keeps running through my head. I know that I should keep working my ass off this year and then use my numbers to demand a better salary next year, and that I’m lucky to be employed when so many people are scrambling. I’ve been trying to keep my chin up, but I just can’t do it anymore.
I’ve started slacking off and letting things pile up on desk, and yes I should be working right now instead of posting to AskMe. This scares me to death, because I have always been proud of my work ethic. Whether I was making eight dollars an hour or waiting tables for tips, I had always put in 110% because getting things done and done right was something I found immensely enjoyable. All of my past employers have remarked at how hard I work, how efficiently I get things done, and how I always go above and beyond what is asked of me. Now, it feels like that part of me has said, “I’ve had it. Screw the lot of you, I’m going on vacation.”
I desperately need some perspective, advice, anything to make this dejected feeling go away, and to make sure that this doesn’t happen again with this firm or any other. Please help me, MeFites.
(CanadianBarFilter) After graduating from law school, I articled at a small boutique firm. Articling salaries are notoriously low in this city, so I was quite happy with the $37,000 I was offered. I really enjoyed the area of law the firm specializes in, got along very well with everyone in the office, the clients liked me, and the partners had only good things to say about my work. The partners assured me that I would be kept on after my articling year ended. So I completed articling, was called to the Bar, the partners took me and my family out for a fancy celebration, and then... nothing. I was still coming in for work every day, being paid at my articling salary, and the partner who had hired me kept putting off discussions about my associate salary. He kept saying, "Don't worry! Please don't think we're just stringing you along, we've just been so busy we haven't had the chance to draw up the offer. We'll have it next week."
Finally, nearly a month after being called, I went to his office again to ask if he could tell me anything. He said yes, and gave me the offer... $40,000. I felt like I'd been punched in the stomach. He seemed shocked at the look on my face and asked if that was not what I’d expected. I told him if he's only willing to give me $3000 over my articling salary, when salaries typically jump $15,000-20,000 for first year associates, then my performance must have been extremely disappointing. I also told him I knew they had offered their previous articling student, who rejected the offer and left the firm, $55,000.
The partner swore they’d made a big mistake, that they thought I was only making $30,000 and $40,000 would have been a fair raise, that they were very happy to have me and there were zero concerns about my performance, and promised to have a new offer for me after the weekend. He emailed me over the weekend with the new offer of $50,000 plus a $5,000 bonus if I meet my billing targets. He also explained that the economy is not what it was when they made the offer to the previous student. I get that, and the firm had always treated me well, so I accepted that it was an inadvertent error and not any attempt to screw me. I’m the only associate at the firm, and had no one else to compare my offer with. So I accepted the offer.
All was well until the receptionist mentioned to me that she was making $35,000. The receptionist is 22 years old and has no degrees or qualifications beyond a high school diploma. She started this job a couple of weeks after I started articling. At first she was making $30,000 and was given the $5000 raise after only 3 months of working here. In fact, the raise was meant to be only $4000, but she thought she was already making $32,000 (her own mistake) and so the managing partner rounded it up to $35,000 just because (she didn’t ask for more). She leaves every day at 5pm on the dot, while I regularly put in 10-11 hour days and come in on the weekends. Proportionally, she’s making almost the same money I am.
Now this knowledge is eating away at me. They'd tried to offer me only $5000 over what they'd been paying the receptionist for the past ten months. Clearly $5,000 is not much to the partners if they’re able to give that kind of raise to her after just three months, whereas I worked my ass off for an entire year to earn my raise. Ever since I learned this, I have been feeling extremely unhappy and unmotivated. I feel like I’ve been such a chump and that the partners must not value me much at all. Or worse, I have this nagging fear that I'm actually terrible at my job but they just don't want to say anything and are willing to keep me around as long as I'm cheap. I realize that's not rational, but it's something that keeps running through my head. I know that I should keep working my ass off this year and then use my numbers to demand a better salary next year, and that I’m lucky to be employed when so many people are scrambling. I’ve been trying to keep my chin up, but I just can’t do it anymore.
I’ve started slacking off and letting things pile up on desk, and yes I should be working right now instead of posting to AskMe. This scares me to death, because I have always been proud of my work ethic. Whether I was making eight dollars an hour or waiting tables for tips, I had always put in 110% because getting things done and done right was something I found immensely enjoyable. All of my past employers have remarked at how hard I work, how efficiently I get things done, and how I always go above and beyond what is asked of me. Now, it feels like that part of me has said, “I’ve had it. Screw the lot of you, I’m going on vacation.”
I desperately need some perspective, advice, anything to make this dejected feeling go away, and to make sure that this doesn’t happen again with this firm or any other. Please help me, MeFites.
You know who makes a ridiculous amount of money despite not doing anywhere near as much as you? Thousands of people. Hell, tens of thousands. Trust fund brats, lottery winners, Hollywood stars... the list goes on and on. If you let it get to you, well, that's your own fault.
But the degree to which it's getting to you sounds an awful lot like depression. I've gone through that sort of thing before, and I really wish I'd seen someone during that time of my life. See someone.
posted by Etrigan at 1:07 PM on September 3, 2010
But the degree to which it's getting to you sounds an awful lot like depression. I've gone through that sort of thing before, and I really wish I'd seen someone during that time of my life. See someone.
posted by Etrigan at 1:07 PM on September 3, 2010
To feel resentful is like drinking poison and hoping the other party dies.
Here's my advice.
1) Be constructive at work
2) Look for a new job
While looking, you will get a feel for your worth and that piece of information can be used to decide if you should ask for a raise or move on to a new place.
Best wishes!
posted by jchaw at 1:08 PM on September 3, 2010 [10 favorites]
Here's my advice.
1) Be constructive at work
2) Look for a new job
While looking, you will get a feel for your worth and that piece of information can be used to decide if you should ask for a raise or move on to a new place.
Best wishes!
posted by jchaw at 1:08 PM on September 3, 2010 [10 favorites]
Don't say "I've had it. Screw the lot of you." Then everybody loses. Discouragement is almost never good for anything, so let it just pass through you and keep on kicking butt. If you're motivation is that zapped then go and talk to them again and articulate your issue as nicely as you have done here.
posted by pwally at 1:10 PM on September 3, 2010
posted by pwally at 1:10 PM on September 3, 2010
Knowing what others earn is a dangerous thing, so you should really just focus on yourself. Are you happy with what you are earning? If you're not, then do you think you could earn more elsewhere? If you can, then what's stopping you?
My advice is to keep working hard, keep performing well, keep your eyes open for opportunities and they will come your way. From the sounds of it, it doesn't sound like that will be a problem for you.
posted by saintsguy at 1:11 PM on September 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
My advice is to keep working hard, keep performing well, keep your eyes open for opportunities and they will come your way. From the sounds of it, it doesn't sound like that will be a problem for you.
posted by saintsguy at 1:11 PM on September 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
Head receptionist (her age doesn't matter) making $35,000 = someone probably at a ceiling in payscale that is unlikely to go up much at all, if ever.
New associate = someone who will make more in a lifetime than the receptionist can dream of.
Get over it. Not trying to be harsh, but it's one of the realities of the working world. Companies look out for their bottom line. New lawyers are cheap. Budgets are sometimes set years in advance. Sometimes probationary periods end with a sizable raises. People make different amounts, and it's not always rational. In fact, it's seldom rational. It could be any number of things. It doesn't mean they don't like you.
This is why salaries should be kept confidential.
posted by hamandcheese at 1:11 PM on September 3, 2010 [17 favorites]
New associate = someone who will make more in a lifetime than the receptionist can dream of.
Get over it. Not trying to be harsh, but it's one of the realities of the working world. Companies look out for their bottom line. New lawyers are cheap. Budgets are sometimes set years in advance. Sometimes probationary periods end with a sizable raises. People make different amounts, and it's not always rational. In fact, it's seldom rational. It could be any number of things. It doesn't mean they don't like you.
This is why salaries should be kept confidential.
posted by hamandcheese at 1:11 PM on September 3, 2010 [17 favorites]
You've voiced your displeasure with those in power at your company already. If they're unable or unwilling to do anything about it, you should leave and find another job. Seconding everyone else, even though you'll be looking for another job, you can't slack off now. Look at it as the only way you can prove to your new employer that you deserve another better job.
posted by meowzilla at 1:12 PM on September 3, 2010
posted by meowzilla at 1:12 PM on September 3, 2010
Here's another suggestion.
Contact a few headhunting agencies and tell them that you are interested in pursuing a new position. They will be able to give you information and help you in your job search.
posted by jchaw at 1:15 PM on September 3, 2010 [2 favorites]
Contact a few headhunting agencies and tell them that you are interested in pursuing a new position. They will be able to give you information and help you in your job search.
posted by jchaw at 1:15 PM on September 3, 2010 [2 favorites]
It would've helped to know what city you're in, OP; that salary in Toronto or Vancouver may be a joke (although I understand that even 2 and 3 year calls at the DOJ earn around $50k across the country) but if you're in Winnipeg or Victoria it's more proportionate.
In your situation I probably wouldn't immediately bail to a new firm (although having a better offer in hand is a great negotiating strategy with the current employer) or wait a whole year til salary review. Try 6 months, exceeding your billing targets (if possible...that info would've helped too) and then arrange another meeting with the partners to discuss your performance and salary expectations.
People telling you to ignore what the secretary earns are off the mark. It does matter, both in terms of your relative wage and the firm's ability/willingness to pay people fairly.
Good luck!
posted by Pomo at 1:21 PM on September 3, 2010 [3 favorites]
In your situation I probably wouldn't immediately bail to a new firm (although having a better offer in hand is a great negotiating strategy with the current employer) or wait a whole year til salary review. Try 6 months, exceeding your billing targets (if possible...that info would've helped too) and then arrange another meeting with the partners to discuss your performance and salary expectations.
People telling you to ignore what the secretary earns are off the mark. It does matter, both in terms of your relative wage and the firm's ability/willingness to pay people fairly.
Good luck!
posted by Pomo at 1:21 PM on September 3, 2010 [3 favorites]
This entire story reeks of "but look what these people are making" and not "I'm not being paid what I'm worth". While the latter may be true, when you write it as the former, it makes you sound petty and jealous. My suggestion is to get over it and stop worrying about money so much, but if you can't, you can at least present yourself in a more positive light.
posted by Dr.Enormous at 1:21 PM on September 3, 2010 [3 favorites]
posted by Dr.Enormous at 1:21 PM on September 3, 2010 [3 favorites]
The only way you'll really know what you're worth is to dip your toes and interview elsewhere. I work in IT and had to start out at a salary significantly below my skill set, but it wasn't long before I proved my worth and interviewed elsewhere. Due to the fact that IT is usually a small world outside of the really big cities, word got out over the grapevine and I was offered a few significant raises over the next couple of years.
I know law is different as most firms are smaller, offer partnerships, etc, but you need to branch out. Chances are you're worth more than you think. When I finally did decide to move on, I was quite surprised. And remember, be as loyal to others as you suspect they would be to you. Good luck!
posted by hylaride at 1:22 PM on September 3, 2010
I know law is different as most firms are smaller, offer partnerships, etc, but you need to branch out. Chances are you're worth more than you think. When I finally did decide to move on, I was quite surprised. And remember, be as loyal to others as you suspect they would be to you. Good luck!
posted by hylaride at 1:22 PM on September 3, 2010
If you want to be making more and they're not willing to pay you more then you need to find a new job.
Just make sure you don't quit your current position until you have something finalized.
posted by bshort at 1:25 PM on September 3, 2010
Just make sure you don't quit your current position until you have something finalized.
posted by bshort at 1:25 PM on September 3, 2010
This is why salaries should be kept confidential.
Exactly. Because otherwise employees might start being concerned about money and demanding more of it from their employers.
That said, it is a fact of life that when starting your career, you're going to be paid less than you're "worth," because ultimately, employers don't know how much a new-employee is going to be worth. The tradeoff is supposed to be that after you've proven yourself in an up-or-out career track, you will more than make up for those low-earning years. The trick, however, is that you have to make sure to demand those higher salaries when you have enough professional leverage to do so, and you have to keep aware of how much money you can command on the "open market" and how much your peers are getting offered.
Don't listen to people who say tell you not to think about money. Your employers are thinking about money, so you should be, too.
posted by deanc at 1:28 PM on September 3, 2010 [9 favorites]
Exactly. Because otherwise employees might start being concerned about money and demanding more of it from their employers.
That said, it is a fact of life that when starting your career, you're going to be paid less than you're "worth," because ultimately, employers don't know how much a new-employee is going to be worth. The tradeoff is supposed to be that after you've proven yourself in an up-or-out career track, you will more than make up for those low-earning years. The trick, however, is that you have to make sure to demand those higher salaries when you have enough professional leverage to do so, and you have to keep aware of how much money you can command on the "open market" and how much your peers are getting offered.
Don't listen to people who say tell you not to think about money. Your employers are thinking about money, so you should be, too.
posted by deanc at 1:28 PM on September 3, 2010 [9 favorites]
This is why salaries should be kept confidential.
This is why salaries should not be kept confidential. OP was only able to negotiate the higher salary because he had more information about what the firm was willing to pay others.
My advice is to look out for your career, because it sounds like this firm is 1) going to pay you as little as they can get away with or 2) so disinterested in your development that they can't even keep track of what they're paying you when deciding on annual raises.
There's nothing wrong or unusual about looking out for yourself in this way, but it is, as you've seen, jarring to feel like your efforts will only be compensated if your employer has no other options. Working more hours is great, but how do you know they'll give you a raise if they don't lose anything by skimping?
So start improving your threat advantage. Do work that makes you difficult to replace. Save enough money or pay down enough debt so that you can pursue other options if need be. The economy is terrible, but it won't always be terrible, and people with specialized skills will do better, sooner. You shouldn't threaten to quit here, especially since you got what you wanted in your last negotiation, but you should be preparing to improve your hand for the next negotiation.
posted by Marty Marx at 1:29 PM on September 3, 2010 [5 favorites]
This is why salaries should not be kept confidential. OP was only able to negotiate the higher salary because he had more information about what the firm was willing to pay others.
My advice is to look out for your career, because it sounds like this firm is 1) going to pay you as little as they can get away with or 2) so disinterested in your development that they can't even keep track of what they're paying you when deciding on annual raises.
There's nothing wrong or unusual about looking out for yourself in this way, but it is, as you've seen, jarring to feel like your efforts will only be compensated if your employer has no other options. Working more hours is great, but how do you know they'll give you a raise if they don't lose anything by skimping?
So start improving your threat advantage. Do work that makes you difficult to replace. Save enough money or pay down enough debt so that you can pursue other options if need be. The economy is terrible, but it won't always be terrible, and people with specialized skills will do better, sooner. You shouldn't threaten to quit here, especially since you got what you wanted in your last negotiation, but you should be preparing to improve your hand for the next negotiation.
posted by Marty Marx at 1:29 PM on September 3, 2010 [5 favorites]
I would not internalize this fact as being about your performance--it's just the Man trying to get something good for a woefully small amount of money. That's the Man's way. Always, always, stick it to the Man. Right now, he's sticking it to you.
While I agree with the posters above that you should not tarnish yourself in the eyes of the firm by doing a bad job, I don't think you need just to "suck it up." They're picking your pocket, and, in all likelihood, you deserve better. Don't just wait for future payoff; if making a good salary is important to you, make it happen by 1) approaching the partner with this information or 2) finding another job.
Caveat: this is the worst time ever to be a lawyer, and they probably can replace you, and it's harder to get a new job.
Good luck, in any event!
posted by Admiral Haddock at 1:32 PM on September 3, 2010 [2 favorites]
While I agree with the posters above that you should not tarnish yourself in the eyes of the firm by doing a bad job, I don't think you need just to "suck it up." They're picking your pocket, and, in all likelihood, you deserve better. Don't just wait for future payoff; if making a good salary is important to you, make it happen by 1) approaching the partner with this information or 2) finding another job.
Caveat: this is the worst time ever to be a lawyer, and they probably can replace you, and it's harder to get a new job.
Good luck, in any event!
posted by Admiral Haddock at 1:32 PM on September 3, 2010 [2 favorites]
I don't think this is about the dollar amount. It's about how much the OP thinks his or her bosses respect and value him.
posted by amtho at 1:50 PM on September 3, 2010 [3 favorites]
posted by amtho at 1:50 PM on September 3, 2010 [3 favorites]
The story about how the secretary got a raise seems to indicate the firm is woefully unconcerned with HR issues and probably has no set policies or procedures for salary scaling and salary reviews. As a result, compensation seem so to be a bit like a game of chance. The secretary won, and you lost out.
In the grand scheme of things, does it matter? Couldn't you just try to find a different position someplace else and in the meantime enjoy what you have?
posted by KokuRyu at 1:54 PM on September 3, 2010
In the grand scheme of things, does it matter? Couldn't you just try to find a different position someplace else and in the meantime enjoy what you have?
posted by KokuRyu at 1:54 PM on September 3, 2010
To be fair, receptionists are pretty crucial. While you are a lawyer who has some experience, your billing rate would be able to go up once you have a lot more experience. They don't bill the receptionist's work to clients, but they do bill yours. She's part of their business the way that infrastructure is, so comparing your salary to hers is kind of not the same. Your law degree is just subject to market forces because they don't desperately need you, while they simply do need the receptionist.
posted by anniecat at 1:56 PM on September 3, 2010 [3 favorites]
posted by anniecat at 1:56 PM on September 3, 2010 [3 favorites]
My first instinct upon reading this is to tell you not to cut your nose off to spite your face. It does suck that they lowballed you, but think about your long term earning potential. Are you on the right road with this firm? Don't bother comparing yourself to the receptionist - that is ridiculous. The both of you are on completely different paths - you have gone to law school and are building a career with immense earning potential. She is a receptionist on her own road. You should not be comparing these things at all - you have completely different jobs.
Keep your eyes on your own paper. Your original offer was insulting - and possibly an attempt to keep the negotiating window reasonably low. However, they came back with a $13k raise with the potential to become an $18k raise, I would not say that's anything to sneeze at. Also, the economy thing is not exactly a line or an excuse. Even if it is, it's being handed to pretty much everybody in the universe right now.
If you believe that $13k is not appropriate based on the merit of the work you've done, go in and ask for $15k more, or whatever it is that you think you deserve. Don't say word one about the receptionist. Trust me on this. It will end badly for you!
Taking business like this personally is really going to hurt you in your career. Do not do it. Being emotional about money at work is a losing game for you. I know it's hard not to do it (btw, my name is pot, you must be kettle) - but it's just the reality!
These are good reasons to ask for a raise, or for negotiate for more than you've been offered:
- It's below market
- Your work clearly shows that you are valuable and they would be idiots not to make you happy and lose you
- It was promised to you in some form
These are bad reasons:
- The receptionist leaves at 5 and got a big raise
- I've got bills to pay
I agree with some of the other posters here - it sounds like there might be going on underneath. Are *you* happy with the work you've been doing? Are you feeling unrecognized? Think deeply on this. Are your expectations for recognition - monetarily, verbally, whatever -- reasonable? Are you not getting feedback on your performance? Something does not sound right here. I'm not trying to kick you in the teeth, but I think you have some entitlement issues that you need to examine. It's one thing to be disappointed, it's another to seethe to the point where you stop doing your job.
There's something really harsh that my grandfather used to say, but it reminded me how bosses think. "Your paycheck is your thank you". That is the world many of us live in, particularly now that employment skews in favor of the employers, not the other way 'round. Never forget that!
Also, if you're looking for data points on salary, read salary surveys in trade journals and the like. Do not talk to the receptionist, executive assistant, marketing director, or other people who do different jobs than you do. Not only is that information useless to you, you can get stuck in a spinny web of resentment all of your own making. You are making assumptions about your receptionist's job based on what time she leaves at the end of the day - don't do that.
Finally, one more thing about the receptionist and her salary. You don't do her job, you don't know what it entails. I've been a receptionist before. Let me tell you this - 8 hours a day at a desk where I have to ask permission to be away from my desk for two minutes, had to beg someone to cover phones to get a glass of water, got chewed out by my boss for going to pee in an emergency, had a million things dropped on my desk to do that weren't my job and never with a please or thank you, where I was sent into a panic attack that I'd lose my lifeline when traffic piled up and I was going to be 3 minutes late to work, and I was talked down to and made assumptions about on a daily basis, all the while knowing I was probably going nowhere and was learning few appreciable skills, I felt like ass at the end of every day when I left at 5. I earned every dollar of my money.
posted by pazazygeek at 2:06 PM on September 3, 2010 [13 favorites]
Keep your eyes on your own paper. Your original offer was insulting - and possibly an attempt to keep the negotiating window reasonably low. However, they came back with a $13k raise with the potential to become an $18k raise, I would not say that's anything to sneeze at. Also, the economy thing is not exactly a line or an excuse. Even if it is, it's being handed to pretty much everybody in the universe right now.
If you believe that $13k is not appropriate based on the merit of the work you've done, go in and ask for $15k more, or whatever it is that you think you deserve. Don't say word one about the receptionist. Trust me on this. It will end badly for you!
Taking business like this personally is really going to hurt you in your career. Do not do it. Being emotional about money at work is a losing game for you. I know it's hard not to do it (btw, my name is pot, you must be kettle) - but it's just the reality!
These are good reasons to ask for a raise, or for negotiate for more than you've been offered:
- It's below market
- Your work clearly shows that you are valuable and they would be idiots not to make you happy and lose you
- It was promised to you in some form
These are bad reasons:
- The receptionist leaves at 5 and got a big raise
- I've got bills to pay
I agree with some of the other posters here - it sounds like there might be going on underneath. Are *you* happy with the work you've been doing? Are you feeling unrecognized? Think deeply on this. Are your expectations for recognition - monetarily, verbally, whatever -- reasonable? Are you not getting feedback on your performance? Something does not sound right here. I'm not trying to kick you in the teeth, but I think you have some entitlement issues that you need to examine. It's one thing to be disappointed, it's another to seethe to the point where you stop doing your job.
There's something really harsh that my grandfather used to say, but it reminded me how bosses think. "Your paycheck is your thank you". That is the world many of us live in, particularly now that employment skews in favor of the employers, not the other way 'round. Never forget that!
Also, if you're looking for data points on salary, read salary surveys in trade journals and the like. Do not talk to the receptionist, executive assistant, marketing director, or other people who do different jobs than you do. Not only is that information useless to you, you can get stuck in a spinny web of resentment all of your own making. You are making assumptions about your receptionist's job based on what time she leaves at the end of the day - don't do that.
Finally, one more thing about the receptionist and her salary. You don't do her job, you don't know what it entails. I've been a receptionist before. Let me tell you this - 8 hours a day at a desk where I have to ask permission to be away from my desk for two minutes, had to beg someone to cover phones to get a glass of water, got chewed out by my boss for going to pee in an emergency, had a million things dropped on my desk to do that weren't my job and never with a please or thank you, where I was sent into a panic attack that I'd lose my lifeline when traffic piled up and I was going to be 3 minutes late to work, and I was talked down to and made assumptions about on a daily basis, all the while knowing I was probably going nowhere and was learning few appreciable skills, I felt like ass at the end of every day when I left at 5. I earned every dollar of my money.
posted by pazazygeek at 2:06 PM on September 3, 2010 [13 favorites]
Are their excuses really believable? They claim they didn't KNOW how much you or the receptionist were making? I mean, this sounds like either a huge load of crap, or the least competent law firm out there. I would look at this more from a "do I really want to work for folks who are either terrible liars or terrible businesspeople" standpoint than an "I'm not making enough money" standpoint.
posted by Slinga at 2:32 PM on September 3, 2010
posted by Slinga at 2:32 PM on September 3, 2010
I earned every dollar of my money.
Absolutely 100% agreed. I worked in IT for a large law firm in a mid-size city and the receptionist was the second hardest working person* in the whole office. I do not know how she managed to basically run the whole office everyday, while smiling and always being dressed impeccably. I have no doubt she earned every cent, and compared to the value she brought to the firm, an almost criminally bargain rate of pay.
So, yeah, don't compare what you consider your monetary value to other facets of the organization. Staff makes the world go round, and you should probably limit any comparisons to your peers when determining salary negotiation tactics.
*second only to one particular legal secretary who was amazing. I have seen people type fast, but no one comes near her all while basically running the most sincerely nice interference for a lawyer that worked with a burning rage and a core of pure sulphur and hate 80+ hours a week.
posted by hominid211 at 2:36 PM on September 3, 2010 [2 favorites]
Absolutely 100% agreed. I worked in IT for a large law firm in a mid-size city and the receptionist was the second hardest working person* in the whole office. I do not know how she managed to basically run the whole office everyday, while smiling and always being dressed impeccably. I have no doubt she earned every cent, and compared to the value she brought to the firm, an almost criminally bargain rate of pay.
So, yeah, don't compare what you consider your monetary value to other facets of the organization. Staff makes the world go round, and you should probably limit any comparisons to your peers when determining salary negotiation tactics.
*second only to one particular legal secretary who was amazing. I have seen people type fast, but no one comes near her all while basically running the most sincerely nice interference for a lawyer that worked with a burning rage and a core of pure sulphur and hate 80+ hours a week.
posted by hominid211 at 2:36 PM on September 3, 2010 [2 favorites]
The comparisons with the receptionist are irrelevant, regardless of how hard or easy her job is. They need a receptionist. If they could only hire a competent receptionist by paying her more money than you, then they would have to do it.
posted by grouse at 3:21 PM on September 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by grouse at 3:21 PM on September 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
That is to say that salary is determined by supply, demand, and negotiating skill, not by how much the organization "values" someone. Remove that thought from your head and get back to work.
posted by grouse at 3:23 PM on September 3, 2010 [4 favorites]
posted by grouse at 3:23 PM on September 3, 2010 [4 favorites]
Anniecat is dead on. She wrote:
To be fair, receptionists are pretty crucial. While you are a lawyer who has some experience, your billing rate would be able to go up once you have a lot more experience. They don't bill the receptionist's work to clients, but they do bill yours.
The receptionist is part of the cost of doing business (i.e. overhead), whereas you are an income generating stream. She probably hit her salary ceiling. Maybe not. But your potential for growth far outweighs hers. Besides, as a first-year associate, you are still learning the ropes, trying to fit in with the company culture/procedure/etc. She probably is the best she ever can be at her job (more or less) and is therefore earning what she can expect elsewhere. You, on the other hand, can prove yourself and put in the time and effort and start making real money in as little as a year. But right now, you're still learning--you're a very well paid intern for your first year.
I know it's hard not to think this way, but our generation really has to learn that you have to work your way up, you can't just expect to be given exactly what you want when you want it. If you think you can make more at Big Firm Inc. and don't mind working in a big firm, then by all means, put in your application. Otherwise, put in your time, do the best job that you can do, and shine. And in one year if you can prove that you're meeting and exceeding financial goals and performance goals and you don't get a decent raise, be prepared to leave.
Ask yourself this: were you happy or at least fairly content with your salary before you learned what the receptionist was making? If so, don't sabotage yourself because you're getting hung up on salaries and office politics. With enough time and hard work, that receptionist could be working for you one day.
posted by 1000monkeys at 3:23 PM on September 3, 2010 [2 favorites]
To be fair, receptionists are pretty crucial. While you are a lawyer who has some experience, your billing rate would be able to go up once you have a lot more experience. They don't bill the receptionist's work to clients, but they do bill yours.
The receptionist is part of the cost of doing business (i.e. overhead), whereas you are an income generating stream. She probably hit her salary ceiling. Maybe not. But your potential for growth far outweighs hers. Besides, as a first-year associate, you are still learning the ropes, trying to fit in with the company culture/procedure/etc. She probably is the best she ever can be at her job (more or less) and is therefore earning what she can expect elsewhere. You, on the other hand, can prove yourself and put in the time and effort and start making real money in as little as a year. But right now, you're still learning--you're a very well paid intern for your first year.
I know it's hard not to think this way, but our generation really has to learn that you have to work your way up, you can't just expect to be given exactly what you want when you want it. If you think you can make more at Big Firm Inc. and don't mind working in a big firm, then by all means, put in your application. Otherwise, put in your time, do the best job that you can do, and shine. And in one year if you can prove that you're meeting and exceeding financial goals and performance goals and you don't get a decent raise, be prepared to leave.
Ask yourself this: were you happy or at least fairly content with your salary before you learned what the receptionist was making? If so, don't sabotage yourself because you're getting hung up on salaries and office politics. With enough time and hard work, that receptionist could be working for you one day.
posted by 1000monkeys at 3:23 PM on September 3, 2010 [2 favorites]
Also: don't forget, you had the opportunity to negotiate your salary, you did and got more than you initially were offered, and you accepted it. To turn back now and say that you changed your mind doesn't exactly give you the best reputation in a fairly close-knit profession, especially in a smaller town. At least work for a year and get a decent recommendation.
posted by 1000monkeys at 3:27 PM on September 3, 2010
posted by 1000monkeys at 3:27 PM on September 3, 2010
First, congratulations! There are many, many people in your position that would have accepted the lowball offer. From that perspective, you stood up to it, demanded more, and you got it. You did great. In fact, given that they came back with an offer that (through the bonus) equalled the $55,000 offer you knew about suggests they do want you around and value you.
Now, as for comparing yourself to the receptionist: stop that. Here's why you shouldn't be concerned:
1. There is a basic cost of living, and you should consider it. I don't know what it is in your area, but let's say it is $24,000 to keep a reasonable apartment, feed and clothe yourself, and get to and from work. The receptionist then makes $11,000 above baseline, and you make $26,000 above baseline (plus a $5000 kicker.) Your discretionary quality of life spending is more than double that of the receptionist.
2. Your job has a larger upside than the receptionist's does. In one year, you went from $37,000 to $50,000 (plus the kicker), while she went from $30,000 to $35,000. Project that relative difference forward for 10-15 years, and you can see that you're on a much more lucrative path -- and your path has been much more lucrative even in the short term.
3. The economy SUCKS right now. They could have replaced you with someone like you were a year ago, after saying "take the $37,000 or take a walk." They didn't do that. Be glad, embrace it as a sign that you're valued.
BUT.
Having said that, not all job opportunities match up with your capabilities and desire. I had a job for five years and didn't get a single raise, not one. I went somewhere else, got a big up-front boost, and over the next five years got big raises and bonuses. Did the first job not value me? Nope, on the contrary -- everyone was on a wage freeze during the period.
So, do well at your job knowing that, for that position at that company, you seem to be treated pretty damn well. Meanwhile, keep your performance up knowing that the better you do at this job, the more valuable you'll be at the next one -- and start looking for that next one after six months or so.
GOod luck!
posted by davejay at 3:51 PM on September 3, 2010 [2 favorites]
Now, as for comparing yourself to the receptionist: stop that. Here's why you shouldn't be concerned:
1. There is a basic cost of living, and you should consider it. I don't know what it is in your area, but let's say it is $24,000 to keep a reasonable apartment, feed and clothe yourself, and get to and from work. The receptionist then makes $11,000 above baseline, and you make $26,000 above baseline (plus a $5000 kicker.) Your discretionary quality of life spending is more than double that of the receptionist.
2. Your job has a larger upside than the receptionist's does. In one year, you went from $37,000 to $50,000 (plus the kicker), while she went from $30,000 to $35,000. Project that relative difference forward for 10-15 years, and you can see that you're on a much more lucrative path -- and your path has been much more lucrative even in the short term.
3. The economy SUCKS right now. They could have replaced you with someone like you were a year ago, after saying "take the $37,000 or take a walk." They didn't do that. Be glad, embrace it as a sign that you're valued.
BUT.
Having said that, not all job opportunities match up with your capabilities and desire. I had a job for five years and didn't get a single raise, not one. I went somewhere else, got a big up-front boost, and over the next five years got big raises and bonuses. Did the first job not value me? Nope, on the contrary -- everyone was on a wage freeze during the period.
So, do well at your job knowing that, for that position at that company, you seem to be treated pretty damn well. Meanwhile, keep your performance up knowing that the better you do at this job, the more valuable you'll be at the next one -- and start looking for that next one after six months or so.
GOod luck!
posted by davejay at 3:51 PM on September 3, 2010 [2 favorites]
I'm a second year call at a small Canadian firm and I'll second what Pomo and Dasein say.
I will say too, though, that there is definitely a pervasive misconception (and if you're like me, one held by your parents and family and friends) that all lawyers are rich, and since you are a lawyer, you must sleep on a pile of cash. Unless you're on Bay Street, that's not how it actually is - and even Bay Street has been making cuts. Nobody ever talks about it, but most new calls don't make a lot of money. You won't be poor forever, but you have to pay your dues first.
Focus on getting on the partnership track, and when you're feeling unmotivated and undervalued, remember that part of what you are devoting your time and energy to are your reputation and your future career - in other words, your remuneration comes in a form other than your salary. Establishing yourself as hardworking and talented early on is incredibly valuable. Be sure you're billing enough to justify your salary, sure; but I would suggest even more to work towards being the kind of lawyer your firm feels they can't afford to lose.
posted by AV at 3:56 PM on September 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
I will say too, though, that there is definitely a pervasive misconception (and if you're like me, one held by your parents and family and friends) that all lawyers are rich, and since you are a lawyer, you must sleep on a pile of cash. Unless you're on Bay Street, that's not how it actually is - and even Bay Street has been making cuts. Nobody ever talks about it, but most new calls don't make a lot of money. You won't be poor forever, but you have to pay your dues first.
Focus on getting on the partnership track, and when you're feeling unmotivated and undervalued, remember that part of what you are devoting your time and energy to are your reputation and your future career - in other words, your remuneration comes in a form other than your salary. Establishing yourself as hardworking and talented early on is incredibly valuable. Be sure you're billing enough to justify your salary, sure; but I would suggest even more to work towards being the kind of lawyer your firm feels they can't afford to lose.
posted by AV at 3:56 PM on September 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
I work at a small firm in the U.S. and make less than I should. I think this is because (1) I was hired in the middle of the economic crisis, (2) it's a small enough firm that there's no established first year associate salary, and (3) I didn't ask for enough in the interview, and they gave me what I asked for. My experience suggests to me that smaller firms don't have a good sense for what an appropriate starting salary would be. I wouldn't view this as you being lowballed so much as a product of their need to cut costs and their lack of knowledge about what first years in small firms in your area make. Ask for more or bail to another firm if you want, but don't view this as personal in any way.
posted by mchorn at 4:21 PM on September 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by mchorn at 4:21 PM on September 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
You know who makes a ridiculous amount of money despite not doing anywhere near as much as you? Thousands of people. Hell, tens of thousands. Trust fund brats, lottery winners, Hollywood stars... the list goes on and on. If you let it get to you, well, that's your own fault.
In addition to ^this^ keep in mind that millions of people work more hours than you do for less money than your receptionist is making. I hope that helps.
But I've been low-balled and it can hurt the pride a little bit. That goes away and pretty soon you'll be getting the big raises. Just don't let them know you care.
posted by Bonzai at 7:48 PM on September 3, 2010
In addition to ^this^ keep in mind that millions of people work more hours than you do for less money than your receptionist is making. I hope that helps.
But I've been low-balled and it can hurt the pride a little bit. That goes away and pretty soon you'll be getting the big raises. Just don't let them know you care.
posted by Bonzai at 7:48 PM on September 3, 2010
Oh, another note: your immediate supervisor made a mistake, in that they could have earned your undying loyalty had they handled it differently. I once got hired early in my second career by a guy who, after saying I had the job, handed me an envelope from his boss. Before I opened it, he said (with a huge smile) "Now, inside this envelope is a shit offer, and you go ahead and open it, read it, and look offended. Then I'll go back to my boss, tell her you turned down the lowball offer, and I'll come back with something better, and you can decide if it still offends you. Carry on."
Needless to say, I went out of my way to save his ass more than once, and followed him to a second company.
posted by davejay at 8:12 PM on September 3, 2010 [2 favorites]
Needless to say, I went out of my way to save his ass more than once, and followed him to a second company.
posted by davejay at 8:12 PM on September 3, 2010 [2 favorites]
I don't understand this 'that's why salaries should be kept confidential' rubbish. The reasoning behind this statement is that salaries should be kept confidential so that employees don't feel (possibly justified) resentment. But the downside of confidentiality is, obviously, that the employer can abuse employees' lack of information to maintain inequitable or non-performance/seniority based salaries. Would you rather be wilfully ignorant or have a true understanding of your worth
Let's face it, if you are underpaid you are being stiffed by the employer. Doesn't matter how much they love you and give you good reviews. You've just asked for and received a big raise, so you can't ask for another at this stage. Instead, keep working hard and at your next scheduled review bring up the topic of a raise. Don't let your partners know that you know the receptionist's salary (there is no sense in revealing a hand if it won't do you any good: you'll just seem sneaky). Just mention that you believe your great performance, meeting and exceeding X & Y objectives, and market rates lead you to believe that you deserve better.
In the meantime, research what the going rate for an associate of your background, ability and performance is. If you're actually getting paid market rate, it just means they really love your attractive secretary, and you may just have to deal with it. But it sounds like you're getting paid under market.
I agree that you should not sabotage your employment. Keep working hard.
I don't understand why anyone would tell an employee not to research salaries. Knowing horizontal salary info (what you'd be getting at competitors - the fair market rate) and vertical salary info (what you are getting in relation to your firm's hierarchy) is crucial to understanding whether you are appreciated. If not - keep working hard but start putting the feelers out for other firms.
I am glad I live in a country where salary info is not viewed as confidential (tacky or private, maybe, but not something employees try to "force" you to keep secret). In fact, numerous websites give good pay band estimates for lawyers of all seniorities at big and mid-tier firms. So all of us know what our market worth is. It's the only fair way.
posted by kid A at 8:12 PM on September 3, 2010
Let's face it, if you are underpaid you are being stiffed by the employer. Doesn't matter how much they love you and give you good reviews. You've just asked for and received a big raise, so you can't ask for another at this stage. Instead, keep working hard and at your next scheduled review bring up the topic of a raise. Don't let your partners know that you know the receptionist's salary (there is no sense in revealing a hand if it won't do you any good: you'll just seem sneaky). Just mention that you believe your great performance, meeting and exceeding X & Y objectives, and market rates lead you to believe that you deserve better.
In the meantime, research what the going rate for an associate of your background, ability and performance is. If you're actually getting paid market rate, it just means they really love your attractive secretary, and you may just have to deal with it. But it sounds like you're getting paid under market.
I agree that you should not sabotage your employment. Keep working hard.
I don't understand why anyone would tell an employee not to research salaries. Knowing horizontal salary info (what you'd be getting at competitors - the fair market rate) and vertical salary info (what you are getting in relation to your firm's hierarchy) is crucial to understanding whether you are appreciated. If not - keep working hard but start putting the feelers out for other firms.
I am glad I live in a country where salary info is not viewed as confidential (tacky or private, maybe, but not something employees try to "force" you to keep secret). In fact, numerous websites give good pay band estimates for lawyers of all seniorities at big and mid-tier firms. So all of us know what our market worth is. It's the only fair way.
posted by kid A at 8:12 PM on September 3, 2010
Just to be clear, I never suggested that money is not important, or somesuch, as deanc implies above. Of course money is important. But it's a free market. The company has the right to lowball, and the employee has the right to negotiate for more. If one party is unhappy, then don't make a deal.
I did say that salaries are better left confidential. I meant that in a practical way. Having this kind of info floating around an office kills morale and brings up all sorts of petty jealousies. It also raises the question of how this information was acquired. Is this idea really that controversial? You can probably flip to page 1 of any HR manual on the planet and see it right there.
That said, if a person thinks they're not getting a good deal, they should look at changing it, and use whatever info they have to strengthen their position. I can understand speaking to friends and former employees about what they make/made. But knowing what the receptionist makes is hardly productive. And actually bringing info like that up in negotiation is the quickest way to show your own immaturity in the business world.
pazazygeek and others have said it all quite well up-thread.
p.s. - I wrote this before a 30-hour flight, but posted it afterwards, without preview. Sorry.
posted by hamandcheese at 4:33 AM on September 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
I did say that salaries are better left confidential. I meant that in a practical way. Having this kind of info floating around an office kills morale and brings up all sorts of petty jealousies. It also raises the question of how this information was acquired. Is this idea really that controversial? You can probably flip to page 1 of any HR manual on the planet and see it right there.
That said, if a person thinks they're not getting a good deal, they should look at changing it, and use whatever info they have to strengthen their position. I can understand speaking to friends and former employees about what they make/made. But knowing what the receptionist makes is hardly productive. And actually bringing info like that up in negotiation is the quickest way to show your own immaturity in the business world.
pazazygeek and others have said it all quite well up-thread.
p.s. - I wrote this before a 30-hour flight, but posted it afterwards, without preview. Sorry.
posted by hamandcheese at 4:33 AM on September 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
From the perspective of someone who's worked in HR/Recruitment, and therefore dealt with salary details and negotiation:
1) It does sound like they tried to lowball you with the initial offer. This is probably the most concerning part of your story, to me. On one hand, it's (sadly) not entirely shocking that they might have just been trying to see what they could get away with in the current, crappy economy; on the other hand, if you hadn't known about their offer to the previous articler, you might have accepted it a crummy deal.
2) However, when called on it, they came right back and offered an additional $10k increase, with potential $5k bonus on top of that. To go from 37k to 55k is basically a 50% increase. After only your first year of work. In a crappy economy. This is VERY GOOD.
3) What the receptionist makes is, quite frankly: a) none of your business and b) has no direct bearing on you. Others have already spoken to the fact that receptionists actually do a hell of a lot more than many people give them credit for, as well as the fact that it's doubtful she'll have anywhere near the salary potential/progression you'll have over the years.
4) As far as the idea that 5k must not be much to the partners, because they gave it to her so easily: also consider internal budgeting. Whether or not it feels or appears fair, it's entirely possible that they've already allocated the majority of the department/area budget that you fall into (thus attempting the lowball). Since the receptionist is new-ish as well, is it possible that her predecessor was more experienced and/or higher paid)? If that's the case, they would theoretically have more leeway with the budget she falls under. Are there other employees in the same position you're in now (or similar ones)? There could also be complications around making sure all the right people are in the right salary bracket. Additionally, if you're placed at the very top of the target salary range, it could affect your bonus potential going forward (i.e. lowering it). Obviously these are speculations, but keep in mind that there are potentially more factors than you may have considered already.
5) Overall: you said that you liked the firm, the work, the coworkers, etc. In all seriousness, that's awesome. If you really feel like you can't continue in good faith, do yourself a favor and channel your frustration into finding another job ASAP. Do NOT continue to slack off and feel resentful. You're only hurting yourself, and damaging recommendations towards future jobs.
With all that said (and hopefully it didn't sound too harsh) -- congrats on having a job that you like, doing well in it, and the increase in the first place. :)
posted by Kattiara17 at 9:21 AM on September 7, 2010
1) It does sound like they tried to lowball you with the initial offer. This is probably the most concerning part of your story, to me. On one hand, it's (sadly) not entirely shocking that they might have just been trying to see what they could get away with in the current, crappy economy; on the other hand, if you hadn't known about their offer to the previous articler, you might have accepted it a crummy deal.
2) However, when called on it, they came right back and offered an additional $10k increase, with potential $5k bonus on top of that. To go from 37k to 55k is basically a 50% increase. After only your first year of work. In a crappy economy. This is VERY GOOD.
3) What the receptionist makes is, quite frankly: a) none of your business and b) has no direct bearing on you. Others have already spoken to the fact that receptionists actually do a hell of a lot more than many people give them credit for, as well as the fact that it's doubtful she'll have anywhere near the salary potential/progression you'll have over the years.
4) As far as the idea that 5k must not be much to the partners, because they gave it to her so easily: also consider internal budgeting. Whether or not it feels or appears fair, it's entirely possible that they've already allocated the majority of the department/area budget that you fall into (thus attempting the lowball). Since the receptionist is new-ish as well, is it possible that her predecessor was more experienced and/or higher paid)? If that's the case, they would theoretically have more leeway with the budget she falls under. Are there other employees in the same position you're in now (or similar ones)? There could also be complications around making sure all the right people are in the right salary bracket. Additionally, if you're placed at the very top of the target salary range, it could affect your bonus potential going forward (i.e. lowering it). Obviously these are speculations, but keep in mind that there are potentially more factors than you may have considered already.
5) Overall: you said that you liked the firm, the work, the coworkers, etc. In all seriousness, that's awesome. If you really feel like you can't continue in good faith, do yourself a favor and channel your frustration into finding another job ASAP. Do NOT continue to slack off and feel resentful. You're only hurting yourself, and damaging recommendations towards future jobs.
With all that said (and hopefully it didn't sound too harsh) -- congrats on having a job that you like, doing well in it, and the increase in the first place. :)
posted by Kattiara17 at 9:21 AM on September 7, 2010
This thread is closed to new comments.
If you choose to leave, use your remaining time at the firm to show them what they are losing by kicking ass at your job.
posted by joelhunt at 1:05 PM on September 3, 2010 [19 favorites]