what have I done wrong?
June 27, 2010 9:04 AM Subscribe
How to get the dropout back to college? How to repair relationships broken over the dropout? What is more important for a parent: to see that your son finished college or to have relationship?
I was a single mom since my son was 2, no child support or alimony, finished grad school in the US in my 30s, on a full scholarship via an int’l exchange program. Got a job at a university. Thought we’re finally getting out of all our “hardships”. When my son said that he wants to be in college like everyone else, even though I had no means for it at the time, I’ve found the way to get him into college – through personal loans (I had a foreigner’s work visa and was not eligible for regular student loans) and even more work while turning down serious offers in my own professional growth (that would require relocation, expenses etc.). I thought that my son and his future was my priority. In his fourth year, my son dropped out of college, lied to everyone (to me, to his girlfriend, even to his out-of-the-blue-found dad who suggested to pay up his student loans). For two years we thought that he’s finished college. He “skipped” the graduation, told me that he didn’t want to continue with med education (before, he wanted to be a doctor) and asked me to get him a job at my friend’s firm. When I found out the truth, by accident, I got strongly against the dropout and the lies, called him names, he refused to talk about anything. Soon he’s totally withdrawn from relationship with me – not returning calls, emails, I don’t know his address now. I still don’t know the reasons of the dropout, only know that he was 2 courses short of graduation. He’s 29 now, no education, married, didn’t invite me for the wedding, still works at the same firm. Didn’t talk with me for 5 years. He still talks with my family, via Skype, very rare, a couple of times a year: they live in a different country. He hangs up if anyone tries to discuss the topic of college, mom, or future plans, allows only small talk. Once I’ve run into him in the subway and asked two casual questions, just trying to start the talk. He walked away, and later told my sister that I’m “hysterical” and “an idiot”. These words are my ex-husband’s words and nobody called me like that before or after. When I got sick and my sister tried to inform my son about it, he hang up and didn’t call me or the hospital. Can I fix anything at all in such situation? Where am I wrong? What can I do? Somehow, at this point I'm so not believing that anything can repair our relationship (nothing I tried so far did) that I want to hear that he finished college. At least I'll know, that he has a safety blanket. Otherwise I feel as a total failure, as a parent. Sorry for a depressing read.
I was a single mom since my son was 2, no child support or alimony, finished grad school in the US in my 30s, on a full scholarship via an int’l exchange program. Got a job at a university. Thought we’re finally getting out of all our “hardships”. When my son said that he wants to be in college like everyone else, even though I had no means for it at the time, I’ve found the way to get him into college – through personal loans (I had a foreigner’s work visa and was not eligible for regular student loans) and even more work while turning down serious offers in my own professional growth (that would require relocation, expenses etc.). I thought that my son and his future was my priority. In his fourth year, my son dropped out of college, lied to everyone (to me, to his girlfriend, even to his out-of-the-blue-found dad who suggested to pay up his student loans). For two years we thought that he’s finished college. He “skipped” the graduation, told me that he didn’t want to continue with med education (before, he wanted to be a doctor) and asked me to get him a job at my friend’s firm. When I found out the truth, by accident, I got strongly against the dropout and the lies, called him names, he refused to talk about anything. Soon he’s totally withdrawn from relationship with me – not returning calls, emails, I don’t know his address now. I still don’t know the reasons of the dropout, only know that he was 2 courses short of graduation. He’s 29 now, no education, married, didn’t invite me for the wedding, still works at the same firm. Didn’t talk with me for 5 years. He still talks with my family, via Skype, very rare, a couple of times a year: they live in a different country. He hangs up if anyone tries to discuss the topic of college, mom, or future plans, allows only small talk. Once I’ve run into him in the subway and asked two casual questions, just trying to start the talk. He walked away, and later told my sister that I’m “hysterical” and “an idiot”. These words are my ex-husband’s words and nobody called me like that before or after. When I got sick and my sister tried to inform my son about it, he hang up and didn’t call me or the hospital. Can I fix anything at all in such situation? Where am I wrong? What can I do? Somehow, at this point I'm so not believing that anything can repair our relationship (nothing I tried so far did) that I want to hear that he finished college. At least I'll know, that he has a safety blanket. Otherwise I feel as a total failure, as a parent. Sorry for a depressing read.
Why is getting a college degree so important? He has a job and a wife so he is clearly not a failure. I suggest you apologize to him and stop fixating on the degree.
posted by Durin's Bane at 9:12 AM on June 27, 2010 [16 favorites]
posted by Durin's Bane at 9:12 AM on June 27, 2010 [16 favorites]
One question - when you're older and looking back on your life, would you rather be able to point to the kid's college degree, or be able to see and talk to him on a regular basis?
Your relationship with your son can be saved. It may take more of the great healer - time - than you'd like, but these things are rarely truly beyond repair.
posted by azpenguin at 9:15 AM on June 27, 2010
Your relationship with your son can be saved. It may take more of the great healer - time - than you'd like, but these things are rarely truly beyond repair.
posted by azpenguin at 9:15 AM on June 27, 2010
I apologize for making this assumption if I'm wrong, but from your writing and your situation, I'm guessing you're Chinese or Korean, and that your son grew up in America. If this is right, there will be a large cultural divide between you and your son. You will value education very highly, while your son won't, not nearly as much. This kind of situation is common. I've seen both sides of it, and I think you should ask one question: is he happy? If he is, isn't that the most important thing? Again, if I'm wrong in my assumptions, I apologize.
posted by smorange at 9:17 AM on June 27, 2010
posted by smorange at 9:17 AM on June 27, 2010
Where am I wrong? What can I do? Somehow, at this point I'm so not believing that anything can repair our relationship (nothing I tried so far did) that I want to hear that he finished college. At least I'll know, that he has a safety blanket. Otherwise I feel as a total failure, as a parent.
Here is your question and answer in your own words. Everyone has different values in life, and a different definition for success. It is a parent's duty to suggest good values for their children, and help them ascertain goals, but in the end you cannot define success for your child. You must only accept who they become and love them for who they are.
Undoubtedly he has found success in life. He has knit his own safety blanket. If you love him, find out what he considers to be his successes and take pride in him for those. As much as it may hurt to not see your success mirrored in his, it is a greater joy to know that he has found any at all, no?
To be clear, forgive and forget. Forget about his education. He is 29 and by now has an education that cannot be provided at university. He still does not have a mother, though.
posted by carsonb at 9:17 AM on June 27, 2010 [2 favorites]
Here is your question and answer in your own words. Everyone has different values in life, and a different definition for success. It is a parent's duty to suggest good values for their children, and help them ascertain goals, but in the end you cannot define success for your child. You must only accept who they become and love them for who they are.
Undoubtedly he has found success in life. He has knit his own safety blanket. If you love him, find out what he considers to be his successes and take pride in him for those. As much as it may hurt to not see your success mirrored in his, it is a greater joy to know that he has found any at all, no?
To be clear, forgive and forget. Forget about his education. He is 29 and by now has an education that cannot be provided at university. He still does not have a mother, though.
posted by carsonb at 9:17 AM on June 27, 2010 [2 favorites]
Screw college. The most important thing to a parent should be that he's happy and safe. That should trump everything, even you having a relationship with him.
Let the past go...or else you have to let any potential future you may have with your son go. You may, though, have no choice but to live without him forever.
posted by inturnaround at 9:20 AM on June 27, 2010
Let the past go...or else you have to let any potential future you may have with your son go. You may, though, have no choice but to live without him forever.
posted by inturnaround at 9:20 AM on June 27, 2010
I don't think this is the kind of question that AskMe can really answer, but I'll give it a go.
It sounds to me like you invested a lot of your own hopes and dreams in your son. That's totally understandable, but it also put an unfair burden on him. You didn't allow him to develop his own hopes and dreams. And once he started pursuing his own path, you started constantly telling him that you thought he was a failure because it's not the path you envisioned for him. This is unfair. It's also not just about the degree. It's about your inability to respect your son's autonomy and allow him to define his own life goals.
Before you can have a relationship with your son, you need to learn to respect him. He's probably avoiding you for self-preservation reasons: your disappointment in him is hurtful to him and makes him feel like a failure. He needs to stay away from you so he can feel like the successful person that he is. (And it sounds like he's doing fine.) So maybe for starters you can try to stop fixating on his missing two courses and think about the things he's done that make you proud. He's a lot more likely to want to spend time with a parent who is proud of him than with a parent who makes him feel like garbage.
As for the college degree, there are two possibilities. Either he'll decide it doesn't matter or at some point he'll decide it does matter and finish the classes. There's a final possibility, which is that you're making it harder to finish by making such a big issue out of it. It may be that he sees finishing as capitulating to you and your unreasonable demands. If you let it go, it might remove that emotional baggage and make it easier for him to make the choice that makes the most sense for his life. But you have to realize that he might legitimately decide that he doesn't need the degree. And that's fine. A college degree is not actually a magic ticket to security or success.
posted by craichead at 9:21 AM on June 27, 2010 [6 favorites]
It sounds to me like you invested a lot of your own hopes and dreams in your son. That's totally understandable, but it also put an unfair burden on him. You didn't allow him to develop his own hopes and dreams. And once he started pursuing his own path, you started constantly telling him that you thought he was a failure because it's not the path you envisioned for him. This is unfair. It's also not just about the degree. It's about your inability to respect your son's autonomy and allow him to define his own life goals.
Before you can have a relationship with your son, you need to learn to respect him. He's probably avoiding you for self-preservation reasons: your disappointment in him is hurtful to him and makes him feel like a failure. He needs to stay away from you so he can feel like the successful person that he is. (And it sounds like he's doing fine.) So maybe for starters you can try to stop fixating on his missing two courses and think about the things he's done that make you proud. He's a lot more likely to want to spend time with a parent who is proud of him than with a parent who makes him feel like garbage.
As for the college degree, there are two possibilities. Either he'll decide it doesn't matter or at some point he'll decide it does matter and finish the classes. There's a final possibility, which is that you're making it harder to finish by making such a big issue out of it. It may be that he sees finishing as capitulating to you and your unreasonable demands. If you let it go, it might remove that emotional baggage and make it easier for him to make the choice that makes the most sense for his life. But you have to realize that he might legitimately decide that he doesn't need the degree. And that's fine. A college degree is not actually a magic ticket to security or success.
posted by craichead at 9:21 AM on June 27, 2010 [6 favorites]
I think you need to tell him (maybe in writing?) that you have let the college dropout thing go - and actually let it go - so that you can (possibly) have a relationship with him.
He is not a failure and you didn't do anything wrong that caused him not to finish school. His dropping out is not a reflection on you and it is not about you.
It might have been a bad choice on his part to drop out - we can't know because none of us know what happened or what his reason was - but that's in the past now. It was wrong of him to lie, but he is probably (I'm projecting here) deeply embarrassed about both lying and dropping out, and until you let it go and forgive him, he's not going to feel comfortable talking to you.
posted by needs more cowbell at 9:23 AM on June 27, 2010
He is not a failure and you didn't do anything wrong that caused him not to finish school. His dropping out is not a reflection on you and it is not about you.
It might have been a bad choice on his part to drop out - we can't know because none of us know what happened or what his reason was - but that's in the past now. It was wrong of him to lie, but he is probably (I'm projecting here) deeply embarrassed about both lying and dropping out, and until you let it go and forgive him, he's not going to feel comfortable talking to you.
posted by needs more cowbell at 9:23 AM on June 27, 2010
Yeah, as pointed out he has an education, just not a diploma. Two missing courses is something that would probably be easily fixed, so if he really wanted or needed the diploma he probably would go get it. It doesn't seem to me like you have done anything wrong in raising him, in fact it seems possible to me that you've done quite a good job. He certainly mistreated you but I think you would do better to work on improving your relationship with him rather than trying to compel him to get the degree he doesn't seem to want or need (which, as others point out, may be one of the primary obstacles to improving your relationship with him).
posted by XMLicious at 9:27 AM on June 27, 2010
posted by XMLicious at 9:27 AM on June 27, 2010
Best answer: Are you guys kidding me?! Anonymous111 only put her son through college because HE ASKED HER TO.
"When my son said that he wants to be in college like everyone else, even though I had no means for it at the time, I’ve found the way to get him into college"
So this immigrant mom took out loans HERSELF to put her son through four years of school, which he then skipped out on two classes short of finishing. Not getting the degree absolutely isn't important. But lying to his mom and leaving her stuck with huge amounts of loans isn't the behavior of anything less than an asshole. If he really wanted to man up and own his decision he'd be paying his mom back in whatever payments he could afford.
posted by MsMolly at 9:47 AM on June 27, 2010 [30 favorites]
"When my son said that he wants to be in college like everyone else, even though I had no means for it at the time, I’ve found the way to get him into college"
So this immigrant mom took out loans HERSELF to put her son through four years of school, which he then skipped out on two classes short of finishing. Not getting the degree absolutely isn't important. But lying to his mom and leaving her stuck with huge amounts of loans isn't the behavior of anything less than an asshole. If he really wanted to man up and own his decision he'd be paying his mom back in whatever payments he could afford.
posted by MsMolly at 9:47 AM on June 27, 2010 [30 favorites]
First of all, I'm so sorry you're having to go through all this. I'm a mom, and regardless of who's at fault, your situation sounds unthinkably painful.
Reading through your question, what comes across loud and clear is that you're worried for your son; not just that you would like a better relationship, but that you want to know that he'll be safe, OK, financially secure, successful, etc.,and that you didn't do a bad job raising him. Since it sounds like a fair amount of the bad energy in the relationship is coming from your anxieties about your son and his future, I wonder if you can find a way to reassure yourself on that point-- to realize that he's a grown up now, that he turned out just fine, and that he's likely to be OK even without any additional help/intervention from you.
Maybe he doesn't have a college degree or value education right now, but (1) he's a couple credits away-- at any point in his life, if he decides he'd like that B.A., he'll be just months from getting it, and (2) a B.A. doesn't even mean all that much in terms of professional success nowadays. In the meantime, he's married, working, holding down both a stable job he's had for a while and a stable long-term relationship. That sounds to me as though you've raised a smart, capable, (relatively) emotionally healthy kid, one who'll be able to cope just fine with any challenges his future life throws at him. Why hang on to the arbitrary goal of the B.A. if it's making you feel like a failure as a parent?
As for the relationship, someone above correctly said that it's likely to take time. In that arena, too, though, you might try to remember that your son is a grown-up, independent person now, who's struggling with his own emotional issues, many of which you may not even know about. I think it can be tempting to try to assume that there must have been something you did wrong, because then the relationship will be in your power to fix. But in reality, this estrangement is just as likely to be about his daddy issues/insecurities/need for independence/whatever as it is about your right or wrong behavior. Can you try to give yourself a break, keep being loving and open, and accept this as something he needs to work through on his own just as he did his tantrums when he was a little kid? It seems to me that loving letting-go at the end is just as important a part of parenting as all the sacrifice and nurturing at the beginning.
posted by Bardolph at 9:48 AM on June 27, 2010
Reading through your question, what comes across loud and clear is that you're worried for your son; not just that you would like a better relationship, but that you want to know that he'll be safe, OK, financially secure, successful, etc.,and that you didn't do a bad job raising him. Since it sounds like a fair amount of the bad energy in the relationship is coming from your anxieties about your son and his future, I wonder if you can find a way to reassure yourself on that point-- to realize that he's a grown up now, that he turned out just fine, and that he's likely to be OK even without any additional help/intervention from you.
Maybe he doesn't have a college degree or value education right now, but (1) he's a couple credits away-- at any point in his life, if he decides he'd like that B.A., he'll be just months from getting it, and (2) a B.A. doesn't even mean all that much in terms of professional success nowadays. In the meantime, he's married, working, holding down both a stable job he's had for a while and a stable long-term relationship. That sounds to me as though you've raised a smart, capable, (relatively) emotionally healthy kid, one who'll be able to cope just fine with any challenges his future life throws at him. Why hang on to the arbitrary goal of the B.A. if it's making you feel like a failure as a parent?
As for the relationship, someone above correctly said that it's likely to take time. In that arena, too, though, you might try to remember that your son is a grown-up, independent person now, who's struggling with his own emotional issues, many of which you may not even know about. I think it can be tempting to try to assume that there must have been something you did wrong, because then the relationship will be in your power to fix. But in reality, this estrangement is just as likely to be about his daddy issues/insecurities/need for independence/whatever as it is about your right or wrong behavior. Can you try to give yourself a break, keep being loving and open, and accept this as something he needs to work through on his own just as he did his tantrums when he was a little kid? It seems to me that loving letting-go at the end is just as important a part of parenting as all the sacrifice and nurturing at the beginning.
posted by Bardolph at 9:48 AM on June 27, 2010
Ack. I'm 30 and married and I dropped out of college two courses shy of graduation.
Let him live his life. Try to repair your relationship. The best way to do so is to make it clear that you are no longer interested in telling him how to live.
He has his reasons for doing the things he does and he's not obligated to share them with you. And it sounds like he's actually doing pretty well in life. I have a suspicion that your two casual questions on the subway were not "How are things going?" and "What's new and exciting?"
Take an interest in what he's doing rather than in what he hasn't done or what he should be doing.
And his five years of work experience are a much better safety net than a college degree.
posted by 256 at 9:55 AM on June 27, 2010
Let him live his life. Try to repair your relationship. The best way to do so is to make it clear that you are no longer interested in telling him how to live.
He has his reasons for doing the things he does and he's not obligated to share them with you. And it sounds like he's actually doing pretty well in life. I have a suspicion that your two casual questions on the subway were not "How are things going?" and "What's new and exciting?"
Take an interest in what he's doing rather than in what he hasn't done or what he should be doing.
And his five years of work experience are a much better safety net than a college degree.
posted by 256 at 9:55 AM on June 27, 2010
Relationship is always more important. If my parents can deal with me leaving their faith, you can deal with your son completing 99% of his degree. It doesn't seem to be negatively impacting his life at all except for your reaction to it. Forgive him.
posted by heatherann at 10:10 AM on June 27, 2010
posted by heatherann at 10:10 AM on June 27, 2010
You say he has "no education" but is only two classes short of graduation.
Education is not zero sum - getting a degree is zero sum (you have a degree or you don't) - but not education. Education is a life-long process. Having taken most of the university courses - he is educated.
posted by Flood at 10:45 AM on June 27, 2010
Education is not zero sum - getting a degree is zero sum (you have a degree or you don't) - but not education. Education is a life-long process. Having taken most of the university courses - he is educated.
posted by Flood at 10:45 AM on June 27, 2010
Once I’ve run into him in the subway and asked two casual questions, just trying to start the talk.
Was one of these questions "So, did you ever finish college?"
He walked away, and later told my sister that I’m “hysterical” and “an idiot”.
Well, something in your attitude or your words in that conversation gave him reason to think this. Honestly, from your description, it comes across like you only value having a relationship with your son if he gets his degree. You are placing so much emphasis on this piece of paper.
Why not try being proud of your son for how well he's done for himself instead of being disappointed that he's not done things the way you wanted him to?
If you had to choose, would you select:
a) A relationship with your son who will never get a degree
b) No relationship with a son who has a degree
Because really, your question makes it sound like there's a reasonable chance you would choose B and were I your son, that would not make me want to talk to you either.
Your son made what was arguably a foolish choice when he was a young man. He's grown now and living with his choices. You need to make some choices of your own now.
posted by DarlingBri at 10:49 AM on June 27, 2010 [2 favorites]
Was one of these questions "So, did you ever finish college?"
He walked away, and later told my sister that I’m “hysterical” and “an idiot”.
Well, something in your attitude or your words in that conversation gave him reason to think this. Honestly, from your description, it comes across like you only value having a relationship with your son if he gets his degree. You are placing so much emphasis on this piece of paper.
Why not try being proud of your son for how well he's done for himself instead of being disappointed that he's not done things the way you wanted him to?
If you had to choose, would you select:
a) A relationship with your son who will never get a degree
b) No relationship with a son who has a degree
Because really, your question makes it sound like there's a reasonable chance you would choose B and were I your son, that would not make me want to talk to you either.
Your son made what was arguably a foolish choice when he was a young man. He's grown now and living with his choices. You need to make some choices of your own now.
posted by DarlingBri at 10:49 AM on June 27, 2010 [2 favorites]
Maybe I am reading this all wrong, but it sounds like his father has poisoned his relationship with you. Something his father said to him made him think you somehow screwed him up. I would ask your sister to find out what it is. Have her be the intermediary. If you can demonstrate that you didn't do what his father said you did or did do what he said you didn't maybe you can start to rebuild a relationship with him. Otherwise, I would let time work in your favor. It may take years, but your son will soften. I would continue to send him notes on his birthday and anniversary, etc. And wait him out.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 11:22 AM on June 27, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by JohnnyGunn at 11:22 AM on June 27, 2010 [1 favorite]
I want to hear that he finished college. At least I'll know, that he has a safety blanket. Otherwise I feel as a total failure, as a parent.
He will be fine without the college degree. He won't be a doctor, and maybe he'll have a harder time advancing in his career than if he had a college degree, but he will be fine. His not having a degree doesn't indicate your failure as a parent. He's a functioning, employed, married adult. You have not failed in raising him. It sounds like you worked incredibly hard on his behalf and had big hopes for him, and for a time, he either truly shared those hopes or at least went through the motions. And then he stopped, and he handled it poorly (dropping out and lying about it), and you were so upset by this abrupt, total change in his life plan and so shocked by his deception, maybe you handled your reaction poorly. And somehow your son's father got involved and did further damage. It's a big mess, and it's not all your fault, and it's not entirely up to you to fix it.
Talking to him about college hasn't gotten you anywhere for the past several years, so I'd drop it. Not because he made a wise choice, but because he's an adult and he gets to make his own choices, whether they're wise or foolish. If I were you, I'd reach out and apologize for the name-calling and the fighting. Tell him you're done talking about his college choices and ask if the two of you could talk by phone or meet up occasionally. He owes you a major apology for how he behaved when he dropped out, and I don't want to minimize that at all, but he doesn't owe it to you to finish college.
posted by Meg_Murry at 11:49 AM on June 27, 2010 [2 favorites]
He will be fine without the college degree. He won't be a doctor, and maybe he'll have a harder time advancing in his career than if he had a college degree, but he will be fine. His not having a degree doesn't indicate your failure as a parent. He's a functioning, employed, married adult. You have not failed in raising him. It sounds like you worked incredibly hard on his behalf and had big hopes for him, and for a time, he either truly shared those hopes or at least went through the motions. And then he stopped, and he handled it poorly (dropping out and lying about it), and you were so upset by this abrupt, total change in his life plan and so shocked by his deception, maybe you handled your reaction poorly. And somehow your son's father got involved and did further damage. It's a big mess, and it's not all your fault, and it's not entirely up to you to fix it.
Talking to him about college hasn't gotten you anywhere for the past several years, so I'd drop it. Not because he made a wise choice, but because he's an adult and he gets to make his own choices, whether they're wise or foolish. If I were you, I'd reach out and apologize for the name-calling and the fighting. Tell him you're done talking about his college choices and ask if the two of you could talk by phone or meet up occasionally. He owes you a major apology for how he behaved when he dropped out, and I don't want to minimize that at all, but he doesn't owe it to you to finish college.
posted by Meg_Murry at 11:49 AM on June 27, 2010 [2 favorites]
he then skipped out on two classes short of finishing
That he dropped out just two classes short of finishing suggests to me that something was going on besides laziness.
They could have both handled it better, but who's right and who's wrong is just going to get in the way of repairing the relationship. What it comes down to is that mom can't expect her son to live the life she wants him to. If he doesn't want to go to college, then she has to stop asking him to. Maybe once the relationship is repaired, and son can trust her not to be trying to live his life, the issue of the money she lost can be raised; if she asks now it will probably just come across as another form of pressure.
He's not going to have the same opportunities as someone who went to college, no. But he will have different opportunities. My mother, who has a college degree, works for an hourly wage that wouldn't allow her to purchase a house. My stepdad, who only has his high school diploma, is very successful financially.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 12:47 PM on June 27, 2010
That he dropped out just two classes short of finishing suggests to me that something was going on besides laziness.
They could have both handled it better, but who's right and who's wrong is just going to get in the way of repairing the relationship. What it comes down to is that mom can't expect her son to live the life she wants him to. If he doesn't want to go to college, then she has to stop asking him to. Maybe once the relationship is repaired, and son can trust her not to be trying to live his life, the issue of the money she lost can be raised; if she asks now it will probably just come across as another form of pressure.
He's not going to have the same opportunities as someone who went to college, no. But he will have different opportunities. My mother, who has a college degree, works for an hourly wage that wouldn't allow her to purchase a house. My stepdad, who only has his high school diploma, is very successful financially.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 12:47 PM on June 27, 2010
My mother has an occasional habit of reminding me of something that went down almost a decade ago that was really traumatic for me on a lot of levels, and then reminding me that she thinks I handled it wrongly.
My answer is to politely tell her that we cannot have a discussion on this topic any longer, it's been nearly ten years, and I have to go now, and I'll call back later.
Your kid behaved irresponsibly, yes. Chances are, he's well aware of it, has no idea how to make amends, and is sick of hearing about his perceived failures... thus, he doesn't talk to you any more.
posted by fairytale of los angeles at 1:09 PM on June 27, 2010 [1 favorite]
My answer is to politely tell her that we cannot have a discussion on this topic any longer, it's been nearly ten years, and I have to go now, and I'll call back later.
Your kid behaved irresponsibly, yes. Chances are, he's well aware of it, has no idea how to make amends, and is sick of hearing about his perceived failures... thus, he doesn't talk to you any more.
posted by fairytale of los angeles at 1:09 PM on June 27, 2010 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: JonnyGunn, after your comment to my post I cried so much that my nose started bleeding. Yes, my son started seeing his father, once a year, during his college years. He even met his future wife in his father's country, during one of his Xmas trips. His dad was invited for the wedding. I was not.
We never discussed his father, I didn't want to bring a painful topic. Maybe I was wrong in that, maybe I had to initiate such a talk. I know that any boy will have “a hole in his heart” growing without a father, I was afraid that if I will start talking and explaining true things it will be as putting “salt into the wound” : my ex was physically abusive and, as I can see it now, was a “spoiled brat” in a high profile family which I didn’t fully realize when marrying him, I was 18. I thought my son will ask me when he’ll be “ready”. But he never did.
Yes, I'm afraid that his dad, as you say, "poisoned" or misinterpreted the facts, or maybe even projected his own habits from his own dysfunctional family. But I don’t know anything on how they communicate, spend time, nothing at all. His father was hiding from child support for years, and when I called him – twice in those 27 years – he refused to help with college tuition. My son found him via internet at the end of high school and initiated communication. (I guess it shows his needs).
How can I now demonstrate anything – about his dad - if my son has totally withdrawn, and doesn’t want to discuss anything. As my sister says, I should not assume that “the drop out” is the reason for his withdrawal. It may only be a trigger, maybe. All our immigration hardships, his daddy’s issues, maybe his own “inferiority complex”, PLUS this shame for his lying about college, etc. – it probably all adds up to not wanting to deal with this. She even suggested what if something happened at the end of college, say, he committed a crime? Or was terribly depressed (and I didn’t know b/c he was in another city/state)? My sister, no matter how she tried, can't start any "serious" topic - he hangs up and disappears for months again. We're afraid to totally lose contact with him and not even know if he is alive.
I tried not to bring any “difficult topics” and, as I said, tried to carry on with “casual questions”. No, they were not “have you ever finished college”, they were about a common friend and about the car that my son recently baught. My son didn’t even fight, he just walked away, after a few minutes. As if my only presence is difficult for him. My sister told me that he interpreted my innocent questions as “reminders” about something that he’s “guilty” of. And then he hung up, she said. I simply can’t find the way to make a right step forward with him.
Yes, I worry about his life, can a parent stop worrying, especially when you know nothing about your child's life, for years? I know from people that his wife is still on a tourist's visa, no work permit etc. He still works at my friend’s firm, small business, that I got him into and he didn’t make any progress within or outside during 7 years. What if my friend will stop employing him? What if he does it out of pity to my situation?
This is why I (almost) accepted the fact that I can’t repair relationship but if he’d finish college I’d feel better for his future. In my immigrant life only my degrees (and documents that proved them) and my hard work helped us to survive. I didn't have any other support.
In addition to all these, I’m a teacher, at a university. How can I stay in front of the class if I won’t believe in education? I DO understand and discuss with students the value of “real” education and “just a paper”. I even talk them out of dropping out when their parents or themselves come to me with such question. If only they knew how much I cry after such talks and during each graduation ceremony. Should I feel as a professional failure too because I could not succeed as a parent? Should I look for another job because I’m starting to feel as a fraud even in my work due to my family situation? My student evaluations are some of the highest and many students stay in touch with me after graduation. But the feeling is still terrible, as if everything is wrong, just because of my son, or rather no contact with him. I’m not saying it’s his fault, I even think that deep inside all parents think whatever happens with their child is their fault, always. I’m looking for what would be a right thing for me to do? Nothing?
I know I should find/see positive things in life and I’m trying, I tell "mantras" to myself every day but I feel as lying to myself. This is why I wanted to try to write it up for this forum and see what people think in such situation.
(I’ll stop here b/c my nose will start bleeding again ☺ Thanks for listening…)
posted by anonymous111 at 1:12 PM on June 27, 2010
We never discussed his father, I didn't want to bring a painful topic. Maybe I was wrong in that, maybe I had to initiate such a talk. I know that any boy will have “a hole in his heart” growing without a father, I was afraid that if I will start talking and explaining true things it will be as putting “salt into the wound” : my ex was physically abusive and, as I can see it now, was a “spoiled brat” in a high profile family which I didn’t fully realize when marrying him, I was 18. I thought my son will ask me when he’ll be “ready”. But he never did.
Yes, I'm afraid that his dad, as you say, "poisoned" or misinterpreted the facts, or maybe even projected his own habits from his own dysfunctional family. But I don’t know anything on how they communicate, spend time, nothing at all. His father was hiding from child support for years, and when I called him – twice in those 27 years – he refused to help with college tuition. My son found him via internet at the end of high school and initiated communication. (I guess it shows his needs).
How can I now demonstrate anything – about his dad - if my son has totally withdrawn, and doesn’t want to discuss anything. As my sister says, I should not assume that “the drop out” is the reason for his withdrawal. It may only be a trigger, maybe. All our immigration hardships, his daddy’s issues, maybe his own “inferiority complex”, PLUS this shame for his lying about college, etc. – it probably all adds up to not wanting to deal with this. She even suggested what if something happened at the end of college, say, he committed a crime? Or was terribly depressed (and I didn’t know b/c he was in another city/state)? My sister, no matter how she tried, can't start any "serious" topic - he hangs up and disappears for months again. We're afraid to totally lose contact with him and not even know if he is alive.
I tried not to bring any “difficult topics” and, as I said, tried to carry on with “casual questions”. No, they were not “have you ever finished college”, they were about a common friend and about the car that my son recently baught. My son didn’t even fight, he just walked away, after a few minutes. As if my only presence is difficult for him. My sister told me that he interpreted my innocent questions as “reminders” about something that he’s “guilty” of. And then he hung up, she said. I simply can’t find the way to make a right step forward with him.
Yes, I worry about his life, can a parent stop worrying, especially when you know nothing about your child's life, for years? I know from people that his wife is still on a tourist's visa, no work permit etc. He still works at my friend’s firm, small business, that I got him into and he didn’t make any progress within or outside during 7 years. What if my friend will stop employing him? What if he does it out of pity to my situation?
This is why I (almost) accepted the fact that I can’t repair relationship but if he’d finish college I’d feel better for his future. In my immigrant life only my degrees (and documents that proved them) and my hard work helped us to survive. I didn't have any other support.
In addition to all these, I’m a teacher, at a university. How can I stay in front of the class if I won’t believe in education? I DO understand and discuss with students the value of “real” education and “just a paper”. I even talk them out of dropping out when their parents or themselves come to me with such question. If only they knew how much I cry after such talks and during each graduation ceremony. Should I feel as a professional failure too because I could not succeed as a parent? Should I look for another job because I’m starting to feel as a fraud even in my work due to my family situation? My student evaluations are some of the highest and many students stay in touch with me after graduation. But the feeling is still terrible, as if everything is wrong, just because of my son, or rather no contact with him. I’m not saying it’s his fault, I even think that deep inside all parents think whatever happens with their child is their fault, always. I’m looking for what would be a right thing for me to do? Nothing?
I know I should find/see positive things in life and I’m trying, I tell "mantras" to myself every day but I feel as lying to myself. This is why I wanted to try to write it up for this forum and see what people think in such situation.
(I’ll stop here b/c my nose will start bleeding again ☺ Thanks for listening…)
posted by anonymous111 at 1:12 PM on June 27, 2010
Do you value your son as a human being or as a piece of paper?
From the tone of your post it sounds like you love the piece of paper more than your son. No wonder your son doesn't want anything to do with you.
We all do stupid crap when we're young. That's what being young is for, but he has moved on to what sounds like a very successful life. You need to move on too. That's one of the awesome things about family, is that they can forgive all the stupid shit you did when you were growing up and still love you unconditionally.
posted by Ookseer at 1:18 PM on June 27, 2010
From the tone of your post it sounds like you love the piece of paper more than your son. No wonder your son doesn't want anything to do with you.
We all do stupid crap when we're young. That's what being young is for, but he has moved on to what sounds like a very successful life. You need to move on too. That's one of the awesome things about family, is that they can forgive all the stupid shit you did when you were growing up and still love you unconditionally.
posted by Ookseer at 1:18 PM on June 27, 2010
I don't think that you should regard yourself a bad parent or as a bad teacher.
posted by XMLicious at 1:31 PM on June 27, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by XMLicious at 1:31 PM on June 27, 2010 [2 favorites]
i was pushed into college when i wasn't ready by my parents and tried my hardest to finish a degree in spite of a series of mental breakdowns, panic attacks and depression. the end result was a dangerous period of drug and alcohol abuse. when i walked away from college to attempt to pick up the pieces of a shattered life, all i got was grief from my parents, especially my mother. they still try to talk me into repeating that hell all the time. my mother in particular has little to offer me beyond criticism and unsolicited "advice."
they also wonder why i never come to visit. though i don't know what caused your son to drop out, i do know that attempting to make these decisions for him is just going to keep pushing him farther away.
posted by TrialByMedia at 2:14 PM on June 27, 2010 [2 favorites]
they also wonder why i never come to visit. though i don't know what caused your son to drop out, i do know that attempting to make these decisions for him is just going to keep pushing him farther away.
posted by TrialByMedia at 2:14 PM on June 27, 2010 [2 favorites]
In addition to all these, I’m a teacher, at a university. How can I stay in front of the class if I won’t believe in education?Do you honestly not understand that you can both value education and respect that your son has a right to make his own choices?
posted by craichead at 2:40 PM on June 27, 2010 [10 favorites]
Best answer: After reading your response to what I wrote, I would sit down and write him a long letter with all your thoughts, your decisions about what to talk to him about his father growing up, everything. It will be a long letter. I would not mail it or email it just yet. I would sleep on it for a few weeks and at some point when I am comfortable enough to send it, I would mail/email it to him. He may not read it. He may delete it or throw it away without reading it. I suspect if it is a handwritten letter that he will stick it in a drawer somewhere and one day maybe even a long time from now pull it out and read it.
Maybe then he will understand and want to reconcile. It sounds like you did what you thought was best for him for 20+ years. His recent actions should not be taken as a sign that you did wrong. No. You must hold your head up high knowing you did right, you did everything for him and one day he will recognize that. I strongly believe that sooner or later a person's true colors always comes out. Your ex-husband, the boys father, his abusive personality will come through.
One last thought. Maybe you could address a shorter letter to your son's wife appealing to her to help facilitate a civil discussion. Her motherly instincts may prevail.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 2:50 PM on June 27, 2010
Maybe then he will understand and want to reconcile. It sounds like you did what you thought was best for him for 20+ years. His recent actions should not be taken as a sign that you did wrong. No. You must hold your head up high knowing you did right, you did everything for him and one day he will recognize that. I strongly believe that sooner or later a person's true colors always comes out. Your ex-husband, the boys father, his abusive personality will come through.
One last thought. Maybe you could address a shorter letter to your son's wife appealing to her to help facilitate a civil discussion. Her motherly instincts may prevail.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 2:50 PM on June 27, 2010
Hey there, I think you need to stop beating yourself up - your son is 29 now, he's an adult; he made his college choices as an adult, he makes his choice to not keep in touch with the family as an adult; he's responsible for his own emotions and actions as an adult, not you, his dad, his sister, whatever. You didn't make those choices, he did.
The fact you still think you can control what he thinks, how he feels, how he acts towards you - and your impotence when the reality that you _can't_ control those things hits you - says to me that you haven't really accepted that he is an adult, making his own choices first, and your son second. And that you can only meet him adult-to-adult, not parent to child.
Don't feel to bad about that; lots of parents have difficulty with it.
Secondly, perhaps on an adult-to-adult level, he's just an asshole you know? No parent wants to think their kid is an asshole - it's not a pleasant thought, you still can't help loving them etc - but sometimes, that's all there is to it. My parents grapple with the fact that my brother is a bit of an asshole; any time time he does something slightly normal, they act like he's mother teresa and then he lets them down again.
I'm not going to discuss your culpability here with the vigour of some mefites. Only you can know how responsible you are for this mess, and you're clearly punishing yourself enough already. I know it's trendy, but seeing a counsellor to talk some of this out may really help you.
posted by smoke at 4:55 PM on June 27, 2010
The fact you still think you can control what he thinks, how he feels, how he acts towards you - and your impotence when the reality that you _can't_ control those things hits you - says to me that you haven't really accepted that he is an adult, making his own choices first, and your son second. And that you can only meet him adult-to-adult, not parent to child.
Don't feel to bad about that; lots of parents have difficulty with it.
Secondly, perhaps on an adult-to-adult level, he's just an asshole you know? No parent wants to think their kid is an asshole - it's not a pleasant thought, you still can't help loving them etc - but sometimes, that's all there is to it. My parents grapple with the fact that my brother is a bit of an asshole; any time time he does something slightly normal, they act like he's mother teresa and then he lets them down again.
I'm not going to discuss your culpability here with the vigour of some mefites. Only you can know how responsible you are for this mess, and you're clearly punishing yourself enough already. I know it's trendy, but seeing a counsellor to talk some of this out may really help you.
posted by smoke at 4:55 PM on June 27, 2010
2 credits away? This is not about being unable to do something, this is about refusing to do something. And hangs up on anyone who tries to discuss the point? Again, there's a LOT going on beyond education here.
I don't have a clue what the bigger picture is, but I'm quite sure you're going to have to drop the education issue if you're serious about making up.
Every time you hone in on education, you are taking every other success, and lack of failure in other aspects of his life, labeling it GARBAGE, and throwing it on a trash heap in front of his eyes. And simply because your specific expectations for his future weren't fulfilled. It's toxic.
He's got a wife and a stable job. Those are two signs right there that he probably isn't a complete fuckup despite your all-pervading 'disappointment' in his choices. So give it a rest and learn to take pride in his more modest accomplishments. Even if you have to do it from a distance.
I sympathize for your sacrifices and your disappointment and even your frustration. Two credits is sooooo do-able. But speaking as one who has been on the receiving end of this type of criticism for 30+ years, you are poisoning the relationship every time you demonstrate your disappointment.
and ps: don't think phrases like "but you're so SMART," and "you could do so much BETTER" are supportive. They're not. They're just more subtle ways to telegraph your sense that he's failed your expectations. He's made his choice about where he wants to go in life and what fills his needs. Learn to respect it, and maybe in a few years they'll be room for communication.
posted by Ys at 6:30 PM on June 27, 2010
I don't have a clue what the bigger picture is, but I'm quite sure you're going to have to drop the education issue if you're serious about making up.
Every time you hone in on education, you are taking every other success, and lack of failure in other aspects of his life, labeling it GARBAGE, and throwing it on a trash heap in front of his eyes. And simply because your specific expectations for his future weren't fulfilled. It's toxic.
He's got a wife and a stable job. Those are two signs right there that he probably isn't a complete fuckup despite your all-pervading 'disappointment' in his choices. So give it a rest and learn to take pride in his more modest accomplishments. Even if you have to do it from a distance.
I sympathize for your sacrifices and your disappointment and even your frustration. Two credits is sooooo do-able. But speaking as one who has been on the receiving end of this type of criticism for 30+ years, you are poisoning the relationship every time you demonstrate your disappointment.
and ps: don't think phrases like "but you're so SMART," and "you could do so much BETTER" are supportive. They're not. They're just more subtle ways to telegraph your sense that he's failed your expectations. He's made his choice about where he wants to go in life and what fills his needs. Learn to respect it, and maybe in a few years they'll be room for communication.
posted by Ys at 6:30 PM on June 27, 2010
How can I stay in front of the class if I won’t believe in education?
You can have your own beliefs and respect your son as an adult at the same time. You don't compromise or betray your beliefs simply by respecting another adult's right to make his own decisions and hold his own beliefs, even if that adult is your son.
posted by Meg_Murry at 6:44 PM on June 27, 2010
You can have your own beliefs and respect your son as an adult at the same time. You don't compromise or betray your beliefs simply by respecting another adult's right to make his own decisions and hold his own beliefs, even if that adult is your son.
posted by Meg_Murry at 6:44 PM on June 27, 2010
Your situation is very sad, and I'm so sorry that you and your family are in this position. I wish I had magical advice but I don't. Just keep letting him know that you're there if he wants to re-establish contact, and yes - it would probably be good to let him know you're proud of him for holding a job and building a life for himself. Don't drive yourself crazy about the degree -- since there's really nothing you can do about his choice. If he needs the degree later, he will discover that and he can finish it then. (I have a family member who's doing exactly this at age 30, with his first child being born, he realized he needed the degree so he has returned to school. Nobody could have made him do it sooner.) And he may not end up needing it - there are many different paths to a good life with a secure income.
But I mainly wanted to say this:
If you teach college students, surely you have seen their ups and downs, and how easy it is for them to have a hard time in college even when they have the very best parental help and support. It is a difficult time of life, when they're finding their independence but also starting to face some of the confusions of adult life. It's a time when psychological issues like depression can appear, as I'm sure you've seen -- and young adults who become depressed come from all different types of backgrounds. I don't know what happened in your son's case, but it's common to have troubles and to leave school, and it doesn't reflect bad parenting or wrong priorities; it's even pretty common among children of academics I know, for whatever reason.
posted by LobsterMitten at 7:11 PM on June 27, 2010
But I mainly wanted to say this:
If you teach college students, surely you have seen their ups and downs, and how easy it is for them to have a hard time in college even when they have the very best parental help and support. It is a difficult time of life, when they're finding their independence but also starting to face some of the confusions of adult life. It's a time when psychological issues like depression can appear, as I'm sure you've seen -- and young adults who become depressed come from all different types of backgrounds. I don't know what happened in your son's case, but it's common to have troubles and to leave school, and it doesn't reflect bad parenting or wrong priorities; it's even pretty common among children of academics I know, for whatever reason.
posted by LobsterMitten at 7:11 PM on June 27, 2010
And there's no reason to feel like you're a fraud in your work.
You actually do help students stay in school, right? What's fraudulent about that?
And even when you work with students who end up leaving school, that's their choice. All you can do is help them to think through their options, to get some perspective on their situation if they feel overwhelmed. The might still choose to leave, and for some people that's a good choice (for example if they are so depressed that they can't really do the work, or if they are distracted by life events outside school so they can't concentrate, or if they don't want to be in school and are not getting any benefit from their courses).
posted by LobsterMitten at 7:18 PM on June 27, 2010
You actually do help students stay in school, right? What's fraudulent about that?
And even when you work with students who end up leaving school, that's their choice. All you can do is help them to think through their options, to get some perspective on their situation if they feel overwhelmed. The might still choose to leave, and for some people that's a good choice (for example if they are so depressed that they can't really do the work, or if they are distracted by life events outside school so they can't concentrate, or if they don't want to be in school and are not getting any benefit from their courses).
posted by LobsterMitten at 7:18 PM on June 27, 2010
Your son is a grown man now; he should know better than to listen to his dad, who hid from child support. You made many sacrifices for him and did the best you could; if he doesn't take your side, it's his own fault. Not your fault, not his dad's fault. I agree that it is time to think of your son as an adult. Let him make his own mistakes. He will recover from them. More importantly, you will learn that he can solve his own problems, instead of having you fix them for him (he wants to go to college just to "be like everyone else"? ok, mom will make it happen. he doesn't want to go to medical school anymore? it's okay, mom will find him a job, etc.).
To mend your relationship, give him space. Contact him every so often just to let him know you still want to stay in touch, but don't press him about his life. Let go of him in your mind, if you can. Don't use your sister as an intermediary to find out how he is doing. Your friend decides to let him go because he hasn't been respectful to you? Too bad for him. Don't intervene. Honestly, hiring and retraining a replacement is troublesome. Unless he is terrible at his job, they won't fire him. He is your son; I suspect that he is smart and capable, just like you are. So he will be fine.
Also, it seems like you think that because your son is unhappy, your students must not have been taught well, either. That's not true. Your evaluations are good; you are a good teacher, and people trust you enough to ask you for advice on whether or not to continue with college. You are doing good work; please don't give up on that good work. What goes on in families is very different from what goes on in the classroom. You sound like a good person; I hope things end well for you.
posted by millions of peaches at 9:15 PM on June 27, 2010
To mend your relationship, give him space. Contact him every so often just to let him know you still want to stay in touch, but don't press him about his life. Let go of him in your mind, if you can. Don't use your sister as an intermediary to find out how he is doing. Your friend decides to let him go because he hasn't been respectful to you? Too bad for him. Don't intervene. Honestly, hiring and retraining a replacement is troublesome. Unless he is terrible at his job, they won't fire him. He is your son; I suspect that he is smart and capable, just like you are. So he will be fine.
Also, it seems like you think that because your son is unhappy, your students must not have been taught well, either. That's not true. Your evaluations are good; you are a good teacher, and people trust you enough to ask you for advice on whether or not to continue with college. You are doing good work; please don't give up on that good work. What goes on in families is very different from what goes on in the classroom. You sound like a good person; I hope things end well for you.
posted by millions of peaches at 9:15 PM on June 27, 2010
How to get the dropout back to college? How to repair relationships broken over the dropout?
This is going to sound hokey, but I recommend you change your locus of control. You over-assume much more control than you really have, and that's what's causing anxiety. You can't make your son go back to college. He will have to choose, out of his own free will, with his own reasoning, using his own philosophies and values that he subscribes to now.
And you don't have sole control over the repair of your relationship. It takes two to tango, and he has to reach out simultaneously when you reach out. You've tried your best to repair your relationship, now it's up to him.
What is more important for a parent: to see that your son finished college or to have relationship?
Your relationship. Because your son finishing college won't make much of a difference in his life. Especially at this point. He's chosen not to finish college because he doesn't want to reap any of the benefits of it. If he finished, it would only help him in his career advancement passively, but he won't be applying for jobs where a degree would matter.
I took time off from school when I was nearly finished, and told everybody I dropped out. I then went back to school because I couldn't handle all the stigma from being a drop-out. But because I went back for that reason, I ultimately ended up living like the drop-out I intended to be anyway. The places I worked at after college did not care that I had a degree. It put a halo effect over my resume, sure, but most of the time, they just cared about my prior work. Also, most of the work I did after college was independent anyway, so no college degree needed there. The crowd I hang with wouldn't care if I had a college degree or not. They're eclectic, creative types, and kind of Bohemian.
So, the benefit of a degree, now that your son has established his own life trajectory, would be insignificant. The benefit of a flourishing relationship with your son would be tremendous compared to that. But as I said above, your son has to choose this to make this happen.
posted by philosophistry at 11:23 PM on June 27, 2010
This is going to sound hokey, but I recommend you change your locus of control. You over-assume much more control than you really have, and that's what's causing anxiety. You can't make your son go back to college. He will have to choose, out of his own free will, with his own reasoning, using his own philosophies and values that he subscribes to now.
And you don't have sole control over the repair of your relationship. It takes two to tango, and he has to reach out simultaneously when you reach out. You've tried your best to repair your relationship, now it's up to him.
What is more important for a parent: to see that your son finished college or to have relationship?
Your relationship. Because your son finishing college won't make much of a difference in his life. Especially at this point. He's chosen not to finish college because he doesn't want to reap any of the benefits of it. If he finished, it would only help him in his career advancement passively, but he won't be applying for jobs where a degree would matter.
I took time off from school when I was nearly finished, and told everybody I dropped out. I then went back to school because I couldn't handle all the stigma from being a drop-out. But because I went back for that reason, I ultimately ended up living like the drop-out I intended to be anyway. The places I worked at after college did not care that I had a degree. It put a halo effect over my resume, sure, but most of the time, they just cared about my prior work. Also, most of the work I did after college was independent anyway, so no college degree needed there. The crowd I hang with wouldn't care if I had a college degree or not. They're eclectic, creative types, and kind of Bohemian.
So, the benefit of a degree, now that your son has established his own life trajectory, would be insignificant. The benefit of a flourishing relationship with your son would be tremendous compared to that. But as I said above, your son has to choose this to make this happen.
posted by philosophistry at 11:23 PM on June 27, 2010
I wrote a lot, and then I erased it, and instead I will keep it to a list of simple statements.
Your son is not responsible for your success or happiness. If you feel that you are a failure because of the choices he has made, then your relationship is officially dysfunctional. It would be even worse if he, too, believed it -- because he would spend his entire life trying to make you happy, and wondering why he wasn't happy as a result.
You are not responsible for your son's success or happiness. If you feel that he cannot be happy until/unless he does what you say, then (again) your relationship is officially dysfunctional. If you were a good enough parent to teach your child to be strong and independent, then your child will inevitably choose a direction for their life that disappoints you on some level.
Neither of these things is healthy, and if uncorrected it will inevitably result in one of these kinds of failures:
1. Your child will live their life on their own terms, which will disappoint you, and you will keep your mouth shut and spend your life unhappy;
2. Your child will live their life on their own terms, which will disappoint you, and your relationship will be destroyed because you cannot be happy without his help and he cannot be happy unless he chooses not to help you (turning it into a zero-sum game that somebody must lose);
3. Your child will live their life trying to make you happy, which will disappoint them, and they will keep their mouth shut and spend their life unhappy.
So, that's it. He has his own life to live, and you are not responsible for it. Until you can accept that, and find ways to lead a fulfilling life without his help, you're not going to be happy -- much like he realized that, unless he lived his life for himself instead of for you, he was never going to be happy.
Ultimately, someday, if you're both living your own independent lives on your own terms, perhaps he'll reach out and attempt to heal the wound. However, given your attitude about his life and the choices he's made, he's right not to reach out -- it would just result in less happiness for him, and a delay in your acceptance that you're responsible for your own happiness.
Good luck.
posted by davejay at 11:16 AM on June 28, 2010
Your son is not responsible for your success or happiness. If you feel that you are a failure because of the choices he has made, then your relationship is officially dysfunctional. It would be even worse if he, too, believed it -- because he would spend his entire life trying to make you happy, and wondering why he wasn't happy as a result.
You are not responsible for your son's success or happiness. If you feel that he cannot be happy until/unless he does what you say, then (again) your relationship is officially dysfunctional. If you were a good enough parent to teach your child to be strong and independent, then your child will inevitably choose a direction for their life that disappoints you on some level.
Neither of these things is healthy, and if uncorrected it will inevitably result in one of these kinds of failures:
1. Your child will live their life on their own terms, which will disappoint you, and you will keep your mouth shut and spend your life unhappy;
2. Your child will live their life on their own terms, which will disappoint you, and your relationship will be destroyed because you cannot be happy without his help and he cannot be happy unless he chooses not to help you (turning it into a zero-sum game that somebody must lose);
3. Your child will live their life trying to make you happy, which will disappoint them, and they will keep their mouth shut and spend their life unhappy.
So, that's it. He has his own life to live, and you are not responsible for it. Until you can accept that, and find ways to lead a fulfilling life without his help, you're not going to be happy -- much like he realized that, unless he lived his life for himself instead of for you, he was never going to be happy.
Ultimately, someday, if you're both living your own independent lives on your own terms, perhaps he'll reach out and attempt to heal the wound. However, given your attitude about his life and the choices he's made, he's right not to reach out -- it would just result in less happiness for him, and a delay in your acceptance that you're responsible for your own happiness.
Good luck.
posted by davejay at 11:16 AM on June 28, 2010
Reading through all the comments, I noted this, with bold on the important stuff:
In addition to all these, I’m a teacher, at a university. How can I stay in front of the class if I won’t believe in education? I DO understand and discuss with students the value of “real” education and “just a paper”. I even talk them out of dropping out when their parents or themselves come to me with such question. If only they knew how much I cry after such talks and during each graduation ceremony. Should I feel as a professional failure too because I could not succeed as a parent? Should I look for another job because I’m starting to feel as a fraud even in my work due to my family situation? My student evaluations are some of the highest and many students stay in touch with me after graduation. But the feeling is still terrible, as if everything is wrong, just because of my son, or rather no contact with him. I’m not saying it’s his fault, I even think that deep inside all parents think whatever happens with their child is their fault, always. I’m looking for what would be a right thing for me to do? Nothing?
Bold item number one: your own feelings and beliefs have nothing to do with your son's actions. You are not your son, and your son is not you. You can accept that he does not find education as important as you do, and still find it important yourself. There is no impact on your credibility whatsoever. You are a whole and unique person, independent of your son.
Bold item number two: life is not an all-or-nothing affair. This is valid for the career vs parent "failure" you keep talking about -- "fail[ing]" in one has no impact on the other -- and valid because you don't have to see it in black and white. There is no magic line you cross, where you're a success if you cross it and a failure if you don't. Life doesn't work that way. You need to start seeing things in shades of grey.
Bold item number three: the right thing for you to do is love your son but stop trying to live through him, and stop trying to judge your own success in life by his actions. Seriously. I think you would benefit from counseling, greatly.
posted by davejay at 1:52 PM on June 28, 2010
In addition to all these, I’m a teacher, at a university. How can I stay in front of the class if I won’t believe in education? I DO understand and discuss with students the value of “real” education and “just a paper”. I even talk them out of dropping out when their parents or themselves come to me with such question. If only they knew how much I cry after such talks and during each graduation ceremony. Should I feel as a professional failure too because I could not succeed as a parent? Should I look for another job because I’m starting to feel as a fraud even in my work due to my family situation? My student evaluations are some of the highest and many students stay in touch with me after graduation. But the feeling is still terrible, as if everything is wrong, just because of my son, or rather no contact with him. I’m not saying it’s his fault, I even think that deep inside all parents think whatever happens with their child is their fault, always. I’m looking for what would be a right thing for me to do? Nothing?
Bold item number one: your own feelings and beliefs have nothing to do with your son's actions. You are not your son, and your son is not you. You can accept that he does not find education as important as you do, and still find it important yourself. There is no impact on your credibility whatsoever. You are a whole and unique person, independent of your son.
Bold item number two: life is not an all-or-nothing affair. This is valid for the career vs parent "failure" you keep talking about -- "fail[ing]" in one has no impact on the other -- and valid because you don't have to see it in black and white. There is no magic line you cross, where you're a success if you cross it and a failure if you don't. Life doesn't work that way. You need to start seeing things in shades of grey.
Bold item number three: the right thing for you to do is love your son but stop trying to live through him, and stop trying to judge your own success in life by his actions. Seriously. I think you would benefit from counseling, greatly.
posted by davejay at 1:52 PM on June 28, 2010
Best answer: What exactly do you want? Do you want a relationship with your son? Or do you want him to finish college? My parents are immigrants too (from East and SE Asia), and education is very important to them. As long as I went to university and got that piece of paper, I could do whatever else I wanted afterwards. There was no other "requirement" after that. They kind of instilled a belief in me that getting a university degree (and not a college degree, and I think a degree is different from an education, actually - your son has gotten an education, he went through the experience of college; he just didn't finish two credits that would have gotten him the piece of paper) would keep me safe and secure. But I eventually learned that just because I have a degree, it does not guarantee me a job, does not guarantee me a high-paying salary, or that I will not live hand-to-mouth, it does not guarantee that I will get married or have kids or have a house or have a retirement fund or make me a law-abiding citizen. It does not even guarantee that I will be intelligent or have learned anything! (Well, I guess it's hard not to learn anything from going to university or college, in terms of the experience.) The only thing that a university degree guarantees me is that I have a university degree. However, this may not be the case in other parts of the world; I don't know. I know that in North America you can still have a job with a college degree. You are not going to die without a college education, you can still make money, you can still be successful. I have an Asian-American friend who recently got her PhD. She can't find a job. She says that her mom thinks that she should be making tons of money now that she has her PhD. Like I said, a degree does not guarantee a job or a high salary. It is not a safety blanket, as much as we would like to think it is.
My sense is that you may feel ashamed. Maybe you are ashamed that you have a son that doesn't have a college degree, even though he has the education. Maybe you are ashamed that you don't have a relationship with him. Maybe you are ashamed that you emphasize the value of education to your students and their parents, but can't get the same message through to your son. You are not a failure, or a fraud. (And you're a little melodramatic in your comment at 1:12 pm...) These contradications happen, like the financial manager who can't manage his own money, or the medical doctor who has a drug-addicted child. Your job has nothing to do with the choices or mistakes your son makes. Nor does your job protect your family members from the things that you work to avoid. E.g. Just because you're a police officer, that won't prevent your kid from getting in a motor vehicle collision, or drinking and driving. Those are your kid's choices and parents can't control them.
You have a lot to be proud of and you've accomplished a lot. You survived immigration, being a single mom, finishing grad school, getting a job. You put your son through college. You've also sacrificed a lot for him - turning down offers for professional growth. Obviously things didn't work out the way you wanted, but unfortunately, you just have to accept that and figure out what your next step will be.
When I found out the truth, by accident, I got strongly against the dropout and the lies, called him names, he refused to talk about anything. Soon he’s totally withdrawn from relationship with me – not returning calls, emails, I don’t know his address now.
I suspect there's a lot more happening here than just you calling him names and being angry at him once you found out. First, he chose to lie to you about not finishing college. That suggests to me that you already didn't have a good relationship for a long time. He might not have finished not because he's lazy and unambitious. There could have been several reasons. He may have hated his school or what he was studying, couldn't take it anymore, and just decided to quit. He may have had mental health issues (like others have said). There may have been other stressors in his life that you don't know about, like dealing with finding his dad. Whatever it was, it seems like he just didn't feel ok talking to you about this, and so I wonder if you, as a parent, created a relationship with him in which he could talk to you, or if you put a lot of pressure and expectations on him. He is not a child anymore that has to obey everything you say, and I suspect he may have a lot of anger and resentment towards you if that's what you expected (I did towards my parents... obedience, not questioning, not talking about feelings or problems or what you really wanted, was the trend throughout my childhood).
I get that you want him to have a safety blanket, and that you worry about his life. But he still has a lot of hurt and anger towards you, because of the way you treated him once you found out that he lied (and probably about other things too - he probably feels bad that he lied, feels bad about the way he's been ignoring you wand walking way, etc. He's in a lot of pain too, like you). He likely thinks that you will judge him, bring up all the "wrong" things that he did... that is the only way that you two know how to communicate - this is the "thing" that's still between you two, and now it's up to you to do something to change those communication patterns. This is not going to be easy, because it requires a lot of change on your part, but what you have to do is create an environment in which he can talk freely to you without shame, judgement or interference. Just accept him as who he is, his mistakes, choices, and the fact that he didn't do everything perfectly (even if you did, with grad school, job, putting him through school, etc.).
First, let go of the idea that he needs to have a college education to have a safe and secure future. I know this is hard. But there are lots of stories out there of people succeeding without one. He could be one of those people, if you let him. For whatever reason, he chose to quit. This may be hard to believe, but it doesn't matter why he quit. The past can't be undone, so there's no need to know why he quit. Tell him those were his choices and that you will not judge him for quitting. Don't talk about how you believe a college education is so important for him, and how it's important for you. This is his life.
Second, apologize for yelling at him and for calling him names. Yes, you were in the wrong, and this apology will go a long, long way to repairing your relationship with him. It will show him that you understand him, that you can see things from his point of view. That will mean a lot to him.
Third, tell him that you want to have a relationship with him, see how he's doing and that you care about him. Tell him you won't judge him, he's an adult, he makes his own choices. Tell him that you will help him when (and ONLY when) he asks for it; you will not interfere in his life or tell him what to do, or believe you have the answers to everything.
I'd suggest putting all this into a letter and just be honest. Don't be a martyr and talk about how much you sacrificed or anything - that will increase his anger and resentment and shows that you have no understanding of what his experience might have been. Don't badmouth his dad or say things like "I'm afraid that your dad poisoned your mind" - maybe that did happen, but you said yourself you don't even know. Don't bring up the fact that he never paid child support. Do not judge your son or his dad. A former co-worker had two sons, and their dad left when the youngest was 10 months and she never heard from him again. Of course her kids were mad at their father, but she always said to them, "Don't judge him. You don't know why people do what they do." And I thought that was a very healthy way of looking at it. (She was an Eastern European immigrant.)
Finally, have no expectations. There is no guarantee (as with anything else!) that this will work. He might continue to not talk to you after this. My suggestions really represent the kind of big attitude shift I think you need to undertake. It will be hard. Change is hard. You might want to consider talking to a therapist too, you obviously have a lot of unresolved stuff about his dad (because you cried until your nose bled at JohnnyGunn's comment!) and probably other things too. I think you have a lot of work to do on your part. To get yourself healthy, and to understand things from your son's point of view.
Also, the fact that your son talks to members of your family shows that he wants to be in contact, to the extent that he is able to. It's likely he's not going to drop out of your life forever.
Agreed with davejay - your thinking is too black-and-white (similar to my mom's). And you and your son are two different people - basing your success as a person and a parent on your son puts a TON of pressure on him, which is also probably why he's angry and hurt towards you.
posted by foxjacket at 2:50 PM on June 28, 2010
My sense is that you may feel ashamed. Maybe you are ashamed that you have a son that doesn't have a college degree, even though he has the education. Maybe you are ashamed that you don't have a relationship with him. Maybe you are ashamed that you emphasize the value of education to your students and their parents, but can't get the same message through to your son. You are not a failure, or a fraud. (And you're a little melodramatic in your comment at 1:12 pm...) These contradications happen, like the financial manager who can't manage his own money, or the medical doctor who has a drug-addicted child. Your job has nothing to do with the choices or mistakes your son makes. Nor does your job protect your family members from the things that you work to avoid. E.g. Just because you're a police officer, that won't prevent your kid from getting in a motor vehicle collision, or drinking and driving. Those are your kid's choices and parents can't control them.
You have a lot to be proud of and you've accomplished a lot. You survived immigration, being a single mom, finishing grad school, getting a job. You put your son through college. You've also sacrificed a lot for him - turning down offers for professional growth. Obviously things didn't work out the way you wanted, but unfortunately, you just have to accept that and figure out what your next step will be.
When I found out the truth, by accident, I got strongly against the dropout and the lies, called him names, he refused to talk about anything. Soon he’s totally withdrawn from relationship with me – not returning calls, emails, I don’t know his address now.
I suspect there's a lot more happening here than just you calling him names and being angry at him once you found out. First, he chose to lie to you about not finishing college. That suggests to me that you already didn't have a good relationship for a long time. He might not have finished not because he's lazy and unambitious. There could have been several reasons. He may have hated his school or what he was studying, couldn't take it anymore, and just decided to quit. He may have had mental health issues (like others have said). There may have been other stressors in his life that you don't know about, like dealing with finding his dad. Whatever it was, it seems like he just didn't feel ok talking to you about this, and so I wonder if you, as a parent, created a relationship with him in which he could talk to you, or if you put a lot of pressure and expectations on him. He is not a child anymore that has to obey everything you say, and I suspect he may have a lot of anger and resentment towards you if that's what you expected (I did towards my parents... obedience, not questioning, not talking about feelings or problems or what you really wanted, was the trend throughout my childhood).
I get that you want him to have a safety blanket, and that you worry about his life. But he still has a lot of hurt and anger towards you, because of the way you treated him once you found out that he lied (and probably about other things too - he probably feels bad that he lied, feels bad about the way he's been ignoring you wand walking way, etc. He's in a lot of pain too, like you). He likely thinks that you will judge him, bring up all the "wrong" things that he did... that is the only way that you two know how to communicate - this is the "thing" that's still between you two, and now it's up to you to do something to change those communication patterns. This is not going to be easy, because it requires a lot of change on your part, but what you have to do is create an environment in which he can talk freely to you without shame, judgement or interference. Just accept him as who he is, his mistakes, choices, and the fact that he didn't do everything perfectly (even if you did, with grad school, job, putting him through school, etc.).
First, let go of the idea that he needs to have a college education to have a safe and secure future. I know this is hard. But there are lots of stories out there of people succeeding without one. He could be one of those people, if you let him. For whatever reason, he chose to quit. This may be hard to believe, but it doesn't matter why he quit. The past can't be undone, so there's no need to know why he quit. Tell him those were his choices and that you will not judge him for quitting. Don't talk about how you believe a college education is so important for him, and how it's important for you. This is his life.
Second, apologize for yelling at him and for calling him names. Yes, you were in the wrong, and this apology will go a long, long way to repairing your relationship with him. It will show him that you understand him, that you can see things from his point of view. That will mean a lot to him.
Third, tell him that you want to have a relationship with him, see how he's doing and that you care about him. Tell him you won't judge him, he's an adult, he makes his own choices. Tell him that you will help him when (and ONLY when) he asks for it; you will not interfere in his life or tell him what to do, or believe you have the answers to everything.
I'd suggest putting all this into a letter and just be honest. Don't be a martyr and talk about how much you sacrificed or anything - that will increase his anger and resentment and shows that you have no understanding of what his experience might have been. Don't badmouth his dad or say things like "I'm afraid that your dad poisoned your mind" - maybe that did happen, but you said yourself you don't even know. Don't bring up the fact that he never paid child support. Do not judge your son or his dad. A former co-worker had two sons, and their dad left when the youngest was 10 months and she never heard from him again. Of course her kids were mad at their father, but she always said to them, "Don't judge him. You don't know why people do what they do." And I thought that was a very healthy way of looking at it. (She was an Eastern European immigrant.)
Finally, have no expectations. There is no guarantee (as with anything else!) that this will work. He might continue to not talk to you after this. My suggestions really represent the kind of big attitude shift I think you need to undertake. It will be hard. Change is hard. You might want to consider talking to a therapist too, you obviously have a lot of unresolved stuff about his dad (because you cried until your nose bled at JohnnyGunn's comment!) and probably other things too. I think you have a lot of work to do on your part. To get yourself healthy, and to understand things from your son's point of view.
Also, the fact that your son talks to members of your family shows that he wants to be in contact, to the extent that he is able to. It's likely he's not going to drop out of your life forever.
Agreed with davejay - your thinking is too black-and-white (similar to my mom's). And you and your son are two different people - basing your success as a person and a parent on your son puts a TON of pressure on him, which is also probably why he's angry and hurt towards you.
posted by foxjacket at 2:50 PM on June 28, 2010
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Well, he has an education -- he's two courses shy of a college degree. That's vastly more education than the majority of adults.
What he did in dropping out and lying wasn't right, but sounds like you could have and should have been a hell of a lot more understanding, and that you have a lot of work to do in repairing the relationship.
As for his life, it sounds like he has moved on and has built a decent life for himself. The only way he will let you back in is if he can be assured that you will add something to his life --- not be a toxic person dredging up his painful past.
posted by jayder at 9:11 AM on June 27, 2010 [3 favorites]