Seriously: When do "lo" and "la" mean "him" and "her" instead of "it." HELP!
June 16, 2010 12:23 AM Subscribe
I've studied spanish off and on forever. Immersion-wise, otherwise. The one thing that kills me is object pronouns. Help me figure out when I should use "la/lo" and when I should use "le." (Specifically I have trouble with this when referring to another human being.)
My friend the other day said he thought he should pick up a female friend of ours . . . in spanish he said he thought he should "recogerla."
Why did he not say "recogerle?"
This is just one example. I have trouble with this across the board. Can the hive mind please guide me in my use of these Spanish pronouns?
Also, I've heard this is relevant: I'm talking Mexican and Central American spanish, not Spanish spanish.
I'm looking for direct answers, online lessons, printed lessons, any sources, specifically about direct and indirect object pronouns.
My friend the other day said he thought he should pick up a female friend of ours . . . in spanish he said he thought he should "recogerla."
Why did he not say "recogerle?"
This is just one example. I have trouble with this across the board. Can the hive mind please guide me in my use of these Spanish pronouns?
Also, I've heard this is relevant: I'm talking Mexican and Central American spanish, not Spanish spanish.
I'm looking for direct answers, online lessons, printed lessons, any sources, specifically about direct and indirect object pronouns.
Well, the last part of your question is pertinent. In Spain, leísmo is quite prevalent. It's actually prescribed usage in some cases, which isn't the case with the opposite loísmo. So, you are not really alone in feeling some confusion.
One confusing bit about learning these direct and indirect object pronouns is that the word "lo" has can be used in so many different ways. That, and some Spanish verbs take indirect objects while their English translation takes a direct object (see last section).
If you are having trouble with the idea of direct and indirect objects (objects that you are replacing with lo/la and le, respectively) as whatzit suggests, it might help to ask yourself if there's a preposition that goes before the object. If there is, it's indirect.
Por ejemplo, in the About page I just linked to, they have: (Le escribo la carta. I am writing him the letter.) What is the subject of that sentence writing? A letter, so it's the direct object. TO whom is the letter being written? Him, so it's the indirect object. Indirect objects get replaced by a le - regardless of the gender. (Although, naturally, you have to pay attention to singular vs. plural, which I'm ignoring here.)
So, if Subject is Verbing Object, use lo or la to replace Object. If Subject is Verbing to/for/on/in... Object, use le. Some verbs where this doesn't work because the English translation takes a direct object; creer, gustar, llamar, interesar. (But note that you can make them fit using the preposition trick "I don't believe in you"; "Walking is agreeable to me" "I'll make a call to him tomorrow"; and "History is interesting to her". I'm not sure how one would think that "to matter" takes a direct object in English.)
With recoger you run into a bit of the opposite problem - it seems like it takes an indirect object because in Spanish you say "a ____". In other words, there's a preposition before the object. But the person being picked up is actually a direct object. What is being picked up? Your amiga; not to your amiga, for your amiga, et cetera. (Which makes me think that maybe my preposition trick really only works when you back-translate) See this Word Reference forum for another explication.
Bottom line? Your friend was right.
posted by HE Amb. T. S. L. DuVal at 1:52 AM on June 16, 2010 [4 favorites]
One confusing bit about learning these direct and indirect object pronouns is that the word "lo" has can be used in so many different ways. That, and some Spanish verbs take indirect objects while their English translation takes a direct object (see last section).
If you are having trouble with the idea of direct and indirect objects (objects that you are replacing with lo/la and le, respectively) as whatzit suggests, it might help to ask yourself if there's a preposition that goes before the object. If there is, it's indirect.
Por ejemplo, in the About page I just linked to, they have: (Le escribo la carta. I am writing him the letter.) What is the subject of that sentence writing? A letter, so it's the direct object. TO whom is the letter being written? Him, so it's the indirect object. Indirect objects get replaced by a le - regardless of the gender. (Although, naturally, you have to pay attention to singular vs. plural, which I'm ignoring here.)
So, if Subject is Verbing Object, use lo or la to replace Object. If Subject is Verbing to/for/on/in... Object, use le. Some verbs where this doesn't work because the English translation takes a direct object; creer, gustar, llamar, interesar. (But note that you can make them fit using the preposition trick "I don't believe in you"; "Walking is agreeable to me" "I'll make a call to him tomorrow"; and "History is interesting to her". I'm not sure how one would think that "to matter" takes a direct object in English.)
With recoger you run into a bit of the opposite problem - it seems like it takes an indirect object because in Spanish you say "a ____". In other words, there's a preposition before the object. But the person being picked up is actually a direct object. What is being picked up? Your amiga; not to your amiga, for your amiga, et cetera. (Which makes me think that maybe my preposition trick really only works when you back-translate) See this Word Reference forum for another explication.
Bottom line? Your friend was right.
posted by HE Amb. T. S. L. DuVal at 1:52 AM on June 16, 2010 [4 favorites]
Indirect objects answer the questions "to whom or what?" or "for whom or what?". They are often translated as to or for __.
A Spanish example is gustar. One of the first things you probably learned was me gusta ___. The literal translation is not I like ___, but rather ____ is pleasing to me. Other verbs like gustar are: caer bien/mal, dar acaso, dar igual, encantar, entusiasmar, faltar, fascinar, fastidiar, importar, interesar, molestar, parecer, preocupar, quedar. Other Spanish verbs that commonly take the indirect object are: dar, decir, enviar, escribir, hablar, mandar, pagar, pedir, preguntar, servir, and vender.
Direct objects receive the verb. Take this sentence: the boy hit the girl. What is the verb? hit. Who is the subject? the boy. Who is receiving the verb? the girl. Thus, the girl is the direct object. You can also try turning the sentence into the passive voice. The sentence "the boy hit the girl" becomes passive when you say, "the girl was hit by the boy." Again, what is the verb? hit. Who did the hitting? the boy. Who was hit? the girl.
Another example is, "the author wrote the book." What is the verb? wrote. Who is the subject or who is doing the writing? the author. What is reciving the action or what is being written? the book. Thus, the direct object is the book. Changed to the passive voice the sentence becomes, "the book was written by the author." What is the verb? was written. Who is doing the writing? the author. What is being written? the book.
Take the sentence, "the man gave the diamond necklace to the woman." What is the verb? gave. Who is the subject? Who is doing the giving? the man. What is being given? the necklace. Thus, the necklace is the direct object. To whom are the earrings being given? the woman. Thus, the indirect object is the woman. The same thoughts follow when you change the sentence into a passive sentence.
Diagramming sentences is a good way to practice identifying direct and indirect objects.
Also, remember RID (reflexive, indirect, direct) as the order of objects in a sentence. In addition, "A + prepositional pronoun or noun" can be used to emphasize the indirect object. (ex: A nadie le gustan libros malos.) If I haven't confused you enough there is also the "se-lo" rule. According to this rule, the indirect object pronouns (le/les) change to se when they come before the direct object pronouns (lo/la/los/las).
This site has lots of practice exercises.
I strongly recommend Breaking the Spanish Barrier as a Spanish grammar guide.
posted by oceano at 2:43 AM on June 16, 2010 [2 favorites]
A Spanish example is gustar. One of the first things you probably learned was me gusta ___. The literal translation is not I like ___, but rather ____ is pleasing to me. Other verbs like gustar are: caer bien/mal, dar acaso, dar igual, encantar, entusiasmar, faltar, fascinar, fastidiar, importar, interesar, molestar, parecer, preocupar, quedar. Other Spanish verbs that commonly take the indirect object are: dar, decir, enviar, escribir, hablar, mandar, pagar, pedir, preguntar, servir, and vender.
Direct objects receive the verb. Take this sentence: the boy hit the girl. What is the verb? hit. Who is the subject? the boy. Who is receiving the verb? the girl. Thus, the girl is the direct object. You can also try turning the sentence into the passive voice. The sentence "the boy hit the girl" becomes passive when you say, "the girl was hit by the boy." Again, what is the verb? hit. Who did the hitting? the boy. Who was hit? the girl.
Another example is, "the author wrote the book." What is the verb? wrote. Who is the subject or who is doing the writing? the author. What is reciving the action or what is being written? the book. Thus, the direct object is the book. Changed to the passive voice the sentence becomes, "the book was written by the author." What is the verb? was written. Who is doing the writing? the author. What is being written? the book.
Take the sentence, "the man gave the diamond necklace to the woman." What is the verb? gave. Who is the subject? Who is doing the giving? the man. What is being given? the necklace. Thus, the necklace is the direct object. To whom are the earrings being given? the woman. Thus, the indirect object is the woman. The same thoughts follow when you change the sentence into a passive sentence.
Diagramming sentences is a good way to practice identifying direct and indirect objects.
Also, remember RID (reflexive, indirect, direct) as the order of objects in a sentence. In addition, "A + prepositional pronoun or noun" can be used to emphasize the indirect object. (ex: A nadie le gustan libros malos.) If I haven't confused you enough there is also the "se-lo" rule. According to this rule, the indirect object pronouns (le/les) change to se when they come before the direct object pronouns (lo/la/los/las).
This site has lots of practice exercises.
I strongly recommend Breaking the Spanish Barrier as a Spanish grammar guide.
posted by oceano at 2:43 AM on June 16, 2010 [2 favorites]
You might be interested in Spanish Pronouns and Prepositions from the Practice Makes Perfect series by Dorothy Richmond. I haven't tried this one, I generally really like this series for its clear explanations and useful exercises. I worked through the Verb Tenses book by this author and really saw improvement on my grammar usage. Might have to move on to this one next. Added bonus: they're really cheap!
posted by c lion at 6:28 AM on June 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by c lion at 6:28 AM on June 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
I'd agree with everything said above, but I'd draw your attention to something oceano touched briefly on: be aware (and beware!) of certain expressions that work differently in English and Spanish. As oceano said, me gusta x doesn't translate literally as "I like x", but as "x pleases to me". So in this example, in English x is the direct object, but in Spanish it's the subject of the verb and you are the indirect object! We have the same in Italian: "mi piace la birra" doesn't translate literally as "I like beer" but as "to me the beer pleases". Once you've learned to recognise these expressions, a lot of the direct/indirect object stuff will suddenly become much clearer.
posted by aqsakal at 7:46 AM on June 16, 2010
posted by aqsakal at 7:46 AM on June 16, 2010
I was stumped by this exact issue when first learning Spanish. As others have noted, the key is to master the difference between direct objects (lo/la) and indirect objects (le), which I had never really learned in English.
I'm assuming English is your most-fluent language. Once you learn direct v. indirect objects in in English grammar, it is straightforward to translate that to Spanish. As for learning it in English, I found The Deluxe Transitive Vampire to be a fantastic resource, but I'm sure there are many other good options.
posted by willbaude at 7:55 AM on June 16, 2010
I'm assuming English is your most-fluent language. Once you learn direct v. indirect objects in in English grammar, it is straightforward to translate that to Spanish. As for learning it in English, I found The Deluxe Transitive Vampire to be a fantastic resource, but I'm sure there are many other good options.
posted by willbaude at 7:55 AM on June 16, 2010
With recoger you run into a bit of the opposite problem - it seems like it takes an indirect object because in Spanish you say "a ____". In other words, there's a preposition before the object. But the person being picked up is actually a direct object. What is being picked up? Your amiga; not to your amiga, for your amiga, et cetera. (Which makes me think that maybe my preposition trick really only works when you back-translate)
The catch here is that in Spanish, specific human direct objects do take a preposition. So you say Golpeó la pared "he hit the wall" and Golpeó un botín de personas "he hit a whole buncha people," but Golpeó a Juan "he hit Juan" because Juan is a specific human being.
The upshot of this is that sometimes a introduces a direct object, and sometimes it introduces a direct object. As far as I'm aware, though, your rule of thumb works for all the other prepositions besides a.
posted by nebulawindphone at 4:14 PM on June 16, 2010
The catch here is that in Spanish, specific human direct objects do take a preposition. So you say Golpeó la pared "he hit the wall" and Golpeó un botín de personas "he hit a whole buncha people," but Golpeó a Juan "he hit Juan" because Juan is a specific human being.
The upshot of this is that sometimes a introduces a direct object, and sometimes it introduces a direct object. As far as I'm aware, though, your rule of thumb works for all the other prepositions besides a.
posted by nebulawindphone at 4:14 PM on June 16, 2010
This thread is closed to new comments.
A direct object is something (or someone) you do something to, or act on (la, lo). The indirect object is something (or someone) you do that action to, or for (le). So if you are going to recogerla, you are going to pick her up, i.e. act on her (sounds dirty, I know). I find it really helps to think of both types of word in one sentence:
(Fundamentally I find this difficulty is linked to the fact that we don't know anything about or ever consider our own language in terms of grammatical bits, and usually no one teaches us until the poor foreign language teachers have to cover the new language AND our own . I was really lucky to have a grammar stickler for an English teacher.)
posted by whatzit at 12:54 AM on June 16, 2010