Hedge my bets?

June 13, 2010 6:57 PM

I'm a young second year university student needing advice on making the right choice in academia and my future options. I study Politics and Philosophy at a decent British university and have to make a choice on whether to carry on with my joint honours course or switch to single honours to focus on what I really love, and want to pursue, academic philosophy. Should I be worried about the following?...

The university I go to is good but not great, middle of the road redbrick

I really love studying philosophy. In the last 2 years have become enamoured with it, and better still, I seem to be good at it. I've thought seriously about pursuing further study in it after I graduate, even toying with the idea of academic philosophy as a career path. But am I good enough? I'm not sure.

Studying politics on the other hand doesn't spark my interest quite as much as I thought it would at the start. I've been good enough at it, but interest has wavered over the year. If I were to carry on with it, it wouldn't exactly be a struggle however I'd see it as a decision of prudence.

CMIIW, but there's a perception among employers of philosophy as an ivory tower and flim flam subject. My carrying on with Politics is damage control incase the whole philosophy thing doesn't work out and I really don't want to graduate with an 'average' degree with limited options.

My gut instinct is to switch to just philosophy.

1) In applying for postgraduate philosophy, will a joint honours disadvantage me? After all, I will have studied half as much philosophy.
2) Is carrying on with a joint honours as a matter of prudence a good option?

Any advice related welcome

posted by freud to Education (13 answers total)

I can't speak to postgraduate work, but in terms of employment outside of academia I would say, as a holder of an arts degree (history), that it's all the same. A BA is a BA. Your major probably won't matter much to prospective employers. It certainly didn't to mine.
posted by fso at 7:17 PM on June 13, 2010

I know little of philosophy as a career specifically, but I really think you should consider what you are going to do beyond graduate school as a job. Jobs in the academic humanities are REALLY hard to come by, so what are you going to do with your thousands of dollars of debt, to pay it off, when no one will hire you for any decent job?

Unfortunately being able to do what you enjoy is not enough in this world unless you can live off the land like Bear Grylls... you have to be able to make money at it!

that's my 2 cents after seeing a lot of people struggle with this. I personally very much enjoyed English in college and loved getting an honors degree in it, I have no regrets about doing that at all, but I used my dual biology degree to get into medical school and now I have a real, highly paying, rewarding job which I also enjoy greatly, and I can still read and write English for fun any time I want to. :-)
posted by treehorn+bunny at 7:18 PM on June 13, 2010

IAAP, but in the U.S. I really can't speak specifically, because every department is different, but generally, candidates with joint interests can be just as if not more attractive than "pure" philosophy majors because of the interdisciplinary applications. Another thing to consider is that getting an academic job as a professional philosopher is very difficult and has only gotten more difficult in the last 2 years. Hair-pulling, weeping difficult. Balance that with the very true adage that you should do what you love. Good luck!
posted by reverend cuttle at 7:21 PM on June 13, 2010

I like to browse the Chronicle of Higher Education, being a grad student, and one consistent story I keep hearing is the absolute horrow-show that is the humanities academic job market. Especially philosophy. Basically, tenure-track positions are slowly being phased out and replaced with adjust teaching positions, wherein you'll be paid a flat rate for teaching, something like $6K per course, meaning if you can hustle together 6 courses in a year you might barely make enough to live. I have no direct experience with this myself being in the sciences but the consistent message I'm hearing is that it is not a viable path for the majority of people who undertake it (through no fault of their own; they're qualified, the jobs simply aren't there). Mind you this was in the US, not the UK.
posted by PercussivePaul at 8:28 PM on June 13, 2010

People above have given excellent advice: your future (non-academic) employer won't care if your BA is joint honours or not; it's becoming ridiculously difficult to get a job as an academic; you should do what you love, first and foremost. I can add that if if you have a joint honours, some universities will ask you to do a master's degree before enrolling in their PhD program (especially the "better" ones). So you might as well do a single honours because that's what you want to do, it will not damage your career prospects outside academia and it might just help you enrol at a PhD program of your liking.

However, I strongly advice you to take a year off between your degrees. This advice is biased because I've seen others and myself struggle; all extremely motivated individuals. A year off to work or travel will help you determine if you're happy pursuing academia and will give you organisational and coping skills you will find invaluable when struggling to work and study and have a life and you hate your thesis and wish you could be done with it (it happens to almost everyone at some point!).

Good luck!
posted by mkdirusername at 9:48 PM on June 13, 2010

Putting aside whether you go into academia or not, I would strongly recommend that you switch to the subject you like. It demonstrates exactly the same skills, and the knowledge base you get from your course is utterly irrelevant for the job market. I work in politics - I can't think of any colleagues who have actually studied politics, and the ones that do may as well have studied something else. A lot of us have English degrees. I was speaking to an accountant the other day who told me her firm likes taking on English grads, despite there being no link between the course material. Apparently they have good writing and analytical skills. Study the subject you like and get much better grades for it, if you can.

Remember also that you don't get much opportunity to delve into esoteric subjects like philosophy after university has ended. You'll be too busy paying that mortgage. If you really like it, learn as much as you can about it now. I always thought that was why degrees were focussed on impractical, ivory tower subjects. If the degree was meant to be completely practical we would all be studying management courses. Christ, what a nightmare that would be. Enjoy your time at uni!
posted by marmaduke_yaverland at 10:32 PM on June 13, 2010

you'll be paid a flat rate for teaching, something like $6K per course

Just a couple of data points here. $6K seems very high for typical beginning adjunct pay. I've seen adjunct pay range from $1500/course to $3500/course in philosophy departments.
posted by reverend cuttle at 7:02 AM on June 14, 2010 [2 favorites]

wherein you'll be paid a flat rate for teaching, something like $6K per course

This is not reflected in the Midwestern US humanities job market at all. Contract pay per course for adjuncts has varied from around $1600 for one semester / one course (at a community college / small, urban Catholic university, e.g.) to a union-negotiated salary of around $2500 for one semester / one course at larger state schools.

To make this work I have had to take on up to six sections per TERM, not per year. YMMV.
posted by joe lisboa at 7:53 AM on June 14, 2010

(1) Pursue what you feel like, provided you think it is worth it. Many (though certainly not all) programs will offer sufficient funding for you to pursue a doctorate without going into debt (provided you finish on time).

(2) If a doctorate in philosophy is what you want to do, you'd be well advised to do so only under the presumption that you won't end up with a professorship. The only reason to presume otherwise -- and even this isn't a sure thing -- will be if you get into a top (top) program, work with some hotshot professors, and professors hotshot think you brilliant enough to justify writing you a glowing letter when you go on the market.

(3) Admissions committees are looking for evidence that you are intelligent. Many intelligent people do single majors; other intelligent people do combined majors. Grades, references, and writing samples -- not number of majors pursued -- will be what committees will be looking at in assessing your smarts.

(3.5) One exception might be -- and this is a very tenuous "might" -- if you're applying to do political philosophy, and your intended project is fairly empirical (though it will still have to be sufficiently philosophical to fall under the purview of a philosophy department). In this case, a degree in politics will indicate that you know the facts on the ground (so to speak). However, in most cases, such a degree won't make or break an admission decision (even if knowing empirical facts about the matter may make you a better scholar in the end).

(3.75) Regarding the "amount" of philosophy you'll have done in a single major degree vs. a double major, just make sure to be well-rounded (having courses in a variety of different areas) and to do as well as you can. Marks and references will still be the largest determinant here: a student with only 10 half-courses, all with first class (A-range) grades, will be viewed as a better candidate than one who took twice as many courses and consistently got upper second-class (e.g. B+-range) grades.
posted by astrochimp at 8:44 AM on June 14, 2010

Yikes, even worse than I thought. I stand corrected.
posted by PercussivePaul at 11:53 AM on June 14, 2010

If you are considering specialising in something like political philosophy, contemporay ethics or the philosophy of human rights then having a grounding in politics might be beneficial.
Assuming you decide not to become an academic philosopher what career path would you choose? Unless its politics I can't necessarily see any advantage in continuing to study it, I don't think it would make you any more employable than the single honours (although having it wouldn't count against you either.)

I studied my degree in philosophy and human rights. Although philosophy is my passion I wasn't in a financial position to become a career academic and my second choice was to work towards a career in the human rights field. In order to make my studies as enjoyable as possible I took as many philosophy related courses that I could get human rights credit for as I could. Is this a possibility for you? Political philosophy is the obvious one in your case but it might also be worth looking into courses on public policy or political ethics.

There is little opportunity to study philosophy outside of university - my advice is to make the most of it.
posted by Laura_J at 1:03 PM on June 14, 2010

You may have to work to convince potential employers of the transferable skills gained through a philosophy degree, but probably no more so than with a politics degree. And once you have explained the skills involved it is normally clear how they apply to the job that you've applied for.
posted by Laura_J at 1:06 PM on June 14, 2010

You should speak to your professors about this question. At least one of them should be able to give you some perspective on the real odds you'll face coming from your specific uni, into graduate programs in your country.

Some standard advice for undergrads thinking about philosophy grad school in the US:
1. You should only plan to go to graduate school in philosophy if you want to become a professor of philosophy. Don't do it if you're not sure, don't do it if you're going just because you can't think of anything better to do, and don't do it if you just want general intellectualism - eg to generally become wiser/continue the broad kind of professor-led learning that happens in undergrad. (Grad school is different from what many people think. If you're uncertain, take a year or a few years doing something else before deciding. Remember that you can read philosophical works on your own outside school, and you can build a group of friends who want to have wide-ranging intellectual discussions.)
2. You should only go if you can get a fully-funded spot (ie they pay your tuition and a small living stipend) in a good department. For better or for worse, Brian Leiter's Philosophical Gourmet Report is the go-to source for rough rankings of which departments are "good". His rankings concentrate on analytic (broadly speaking) departments rather than continental (broadly speaking). You can find them by searching for his name or the "gourmet report".
3. Expect that the statistics apply to you as much as to anyone. Philosophy PhD programs have severe attrition - half or more of the people who start eventually quit without a degree, I would guess based on what I've seen. The job market is very poor and may involve taking a job in a place you would otherwise not consider living.
posted by LobsterMitten at 5:31 PM on June 14, 2010