Should I defer law school?
May 7, 2010 5:43 AM Subscribe
Should I defer law school? The aftermath of this question.
I've been accepted to a Top6 school with scholarship money (a little more than 1/3 tuition for 3 years, no grade requirements). Recently, they asked if I wanted to defer, and said I could keep the money if I did (plus they'd add a little more for potential tuition increases, etc.). Now, my goal way always a T3, but I've struck out at two and have been waitlisted at one. I'm assuming that this was mostly due to my lsat scores (same score- 166 - on two tests), which never rose above my diagnostic.
So, my dilemma: Part of me thinks I should take the deferral and study hard-core for the October test. If the score goes up, retry for the T3. If it doesn't change, stick with my T6. The pros:possibly a better school, eliminating that feeling of "what-if", having some free time; the cons: if my score doesn't change, and I can't get a job (current one'll be done in June), I'll have wasted a year. If my score does change, and I reapply, I still may not get into a T3 and I'll have lost my T6. Also, I've already taken a year off, and not having anything lined up for the next year makes me nervous (I'm that type that always has a plan).
Sorry this is so long, any advice/feedback offered is greatly appreciated. I need to make this decision in the next 3 days!
I've been accepted to a Top6 school with scholarship money (a little more than 1/3 tuition for 3 years, no grade requirements). Recently, they asked if I wanted to defer, and said I could keep the money if I did (plus they'd add a little more for potential tuition increases, etc.). Now, my goal way always a T3, but I've struck out at two and have been waitlisted at one. I'm assuming that this was mostly due to my lsat scores (same score- 166 - on two tests), which never rose above my diagnostic.
So, my dilemma: Part of me thinks I should take the deferral and study hard-core for the October test. If the score goes up, retry for the T3. If it doesn't change, stick with my T6. The pros:possibly a better school, eliminating that feeling of "what-if", having some free time; the cons: if my score doesn't change, and I can't get a job (current one'll be done in June), I'll have wasted a year. If my score does change, and I reapply, I still may not get into a T3 and I'll have lost my T6. Also, I've already taken a year off, and not having anything lined up for the next year makes me nervous (I'm that type that always has a plan).
Sorry this is so long, any advice/feedback offered is greatly appreciated. I need to make this decision in the next 3 days!
I would take the deferral and stick with the T6. I mean, sure, try for the T3 if you want, but do you really think that a third test is going to make a difference?(Also, I don't understand why you think taking the test again means you might lose your T6 -- would they get your scores without you sending them? Even if they did would they really rescind?) But, to me, the advantage to taking the extra year is that it means that there's one more year between your graduation and this horrible job market. Even if you're talking about T6, with all the lay offs and deferrals, it's going to take a while for things to shake out. If you're set on law school, give it the year.
posted by dpx.mfx at 5:59 AM on May 7, 2010
posted by dpx.mfx at 5:59 AM on May 7, 2010
If the one T3 at which you're waitlisted is HLS, don't write off the possibility of getting in this year. I know a number of people here who got in off the waitlist... some as late as August.
posted by ewiar at 6:05 AM on May 7, 2010
posted by ewiar at 6:05 AM on May 7, 2010
Best answer: Take the current offer.
Some additional thoughts. Yale is a great school if you want to teach or be a federal judge. However, Yale alums are really often thought of as odd in the workplace. The Yale program is a lot about thinking great thoughts, and not necessarily getting shit done. It may be a great place to go, but it has some baggage.
Harvard will always open doors for you, but the education is not a million miles different from what you get elsewhere; it's just a prestige thing. Law school is ONLY what you make of it (and, personally, I think the amount of work you have to put in is not worth it; PM me or look at my other posts if want a diatribe). So if you go to a T6 school and work your ass off, you get pretty much the same thing as if you went to a T3.
Stanford is just the Harvard/Yale of the west, with a bit of the plusses and minuses of each. You may not believe this, but honestly, I see very few Stanford/Boalt folks on the East Coast. They're both great schools, but there's fewer of them coming back east, and, as a consequence, the degrees don't have as much cachet as you might expect. I'm sure you can say the same going the other direction--Chicago, Columbia and NYU don't carry as much weight in California. I don't know where you are, but you might consider this.
The ONLY mitigating factor here is that the economy is still pretty shitty. I would NOT defer in the hopes of getting into HYS, but you might consider whether a year's deferral would put you into an entering class that may have more opportunities at graduation. It is an extremely competitive market out there these days. My firm's summer class is, I think, half the size it was a couple of years ago.
Lastly--as I referenced above, this is kind of a gut check--are you prepared to give what law school demands (at least for 1L)? Even with 1/3 funding, you're talking about going out of pocket for about $100,000 when you factor in books, housing etc. The market is hugely over saturated with out of work lawyers now who would be happy to eat your lunch. My firm fired several first years in the past year; the days of tenured associatehood are over. Hell, the whole comp system is being revised in some places. It's a mess out there.
Again, PM me if you'd want more of this cheerful tune. Good luck!
posted by Admiral Haddock at 6:08 AM on May 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
Some additional thoughts. Yale is a great school if you want to teach or be a federal judge. However, Yale alums are really often thought of as odd in the workplace. The Yale program is a lot about thinking great thoughts, and not necessarily getting shit done. It may be a great place to go, but it has some baggage.
Harvard will always open doors for you, but the education is not a million miles different from what you get elsewhere; it's just a prestige thing. Law school is ONLY what you make of it (and, personally, I think the amount of work you have to put in is not worth it; PM me or look at my other posts if want a diatribe). So if you go to a T6 school and work your ass off, you get pretty much the same thing as if you went to a T3.
Stanford is just the Harvard/Yale of the west, with a bit of the plusses and minuses of each. You may not believe this, but honestly, I see very few Stanford/Boalt folks on the East Coast. They're both great schools, but there's fewer of them coming back east, and, as a consequence, the degrees don't have as much cachet as you might expect. I'm sure you can say the same going the other direction--Chicago, Columbia and NYU don't carry as much weight in California. I don't know where you are, but you might consider this.
The ONLY mitigating factor here is that the economy is still pretty shitty. I would NOT defer in the hopes of getting into HYS, but you might consider whether a year's deferral would put you into an entering class that may have more opportunities at graduation. It is an extremely competitive market out there these days. My firm's summer class is, I think, half the size it was a couple of years ago.
Lastly--as I referenced above, this is kind of a gut check--are you prepared to give what law school demands (at least for 1L)? Even with 1/3 funding, you're talking about going out of pocket for about $100,000 when you factor in books, housing etc. The market is hugely over saturated with out of work lawyers now who would be happy to eat your lunch. My firm fired several first years in the past year; the days of tenured associatehood are over. Hell, the whole comp system is being revised in some places. It's a mess out there.
Again, PM me if you'd want more of this cheerful tune. Good luck!
posted by Admiral Haddock at 6:08 AM on May 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
Also: I think that you're right to be cautious about re-applying, even with a higher score. The affirmative action bump was enough this year to make a 166 sufficient. But because URM candidates are only going to be around 30% of the admit population, there's a smaller sample size and therefore more volatility from year to year in terms of how much the racial preference helps. It might only take a few more candidates of your ethnicity applying with higher scores to knock you out of the T6.
posted by ewiar at 6:15 AM on May 7, 2010
posted by ewiar at 6:15 AM on May 7, 2010
Correct me if I am wrong, but it was my understanding when I took the LSAT that if you re-take the test then most schools average all of your scores. If that is true for the schools you are applying for, and you've had two scores of 166, then you would have to score a 170 just to show an average score of 167. Of course, it has been 9 years or so since I took the LSAT, however a cursory google suggests this is correct.
posted by bunnycup at 6:19 AM on May 7, 2010
posted by bunnycup at 6:19 AM on May 7, 2010
(I lied, you could net a 1-point average increase to 167 if you scored a 169 on your third go-round. Of course if the schools you are concerned about don't average, my data point is not useful.)
posted by bunnycup at 6:21 AM on May 7, 2010
posted by bunnycup at 6:21 AM on May 7, 2010
FWIW as someone who will be doing this for 2011, I wish I could have gotten started on this soon enough to do it for this year instead. It gets you out into the job market one year sooner, and this is not the time you want to be trying to figure out what to do with yourself for a year unless you have parents and/or savings that can support you for that time.
posted by gracedissolved at 6:57 AM on May 7, 2010
posted by gracedissolved at 6:57 AM on May 7, 2010
Correct me if I am wrong, but it was my understanding when I took the LSAT that if you re-take the test then most schools average all of your scores.
This changed in 2007, all schools now accept the highest score. Sorry 'boutcha, pre-2006 takers.
OP - go ahead and go. You're highly unlikely to improve your score if you've been studying for a year already and scored 166 twice. Even with a 170, HYS isnt a lock. Tuition is increasing 5-12% on a yearly basis, the longer you wait the more you'll owe.
Honestly, unless you're set on being an academic, with that application profile, you could get a full ride to a T20 and go for free. You should REALLY consider doing it. The job market is as bad as everyone says and worse, and $100,000 in debt isn't a joke.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:58 AM on May 7, 2010
This changed in 2007, all schools now accept the highest score. Sorry 'boutcha, pre-2006 takers.
OP - go ahead and go. You're highly unlikely to improve your score if you've been studying for a year already and scored 166 twice. Even with a 170, HYS isnt a lock. Tuition is increasing 5-12% on a yearly basis, the longer you wait the more you'll owe.
Honestly, unless you're set on being an academic, with that application profile, you could get a full ride to a T20 and go for free. You should REALLY consider doing it. The job market is as bad as everyone says and worse, and $100,000 in debt isn't a joke.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:58 AM on May 7, 2010
Response by poster: Wow, some great stuff guys, thanks. A few more things that could be mitigating factors:
1. Yes, the waitlisted school is HLS. I'm definitely hoping for it, but I also want to be realistic (again, I like to have a plan).
2. The school I was accepted to is in my hometown (major city). Parents have told me that if I live at home, they'll provide me w/food, travel money (school is about 1 hour away), and a rent-free room. If I do that, the scholarship essentially covers 1/2 of my total law school costs. Also, I could live at home after I graduate - not ideal, but I'd pay off the loans faster.
3. Like ewiar said, the unpredicability of URM cycles is also a large part of why I'm so wary of reapplying - I got waitlisted at schools out of the T14 while getting into a T6! Very weird.
dpx.mfx - Sorry if I wasn't clear, I wasn't saying they'd rescind, I was saying I'd have to let go of their accpetance if I decided to reapply for the T3 (you're not allowed to apply for other schools if you're deffering at another).
bunnycup - Yes, most schools average their scores, but it appears (based on conversations I've had online) that URM's can be the exception to this rule, if only because it's so rare for them to score high.
Thanks again everyone!
posted by Sakura3210 at 7:11 AM on May 7, 2010
1. Yes, the waitlisted school is HLS. I'm definitely hoping for it, but I also want to be realistic (again, I like to have a plan).
2. The school I was accepted to is in my hometown (major city). Parents have told me that if I live at home, they'll provide me w/food, travel money (school is about 1 hour away), and a rent-free room. If I do that, the scholarship essentially covers 1/2 of my total law school costs. Also, I could live at home after I graduate - not ideal, but I'd pay off the loans faster.
3. Like ewiar said, the unpredicability of URM cycles is also a large part of why I'm so wary of reapplying - I got waitlisted at schools out of the T14 while getting into a T6! Very weird.
dpx.mfx - Sorry if I wasn't clear, I wasn't saying they'd rescind, I was saying I'd have to let go of their accpetance if I decided to reapply for the T3 (you're not allowed to apply for other schools if you're deffering at another).
bunnycup - Yes, most schools average their scores, but it appears (based on conversations I've had online) that URM's can be the exception to this rule, if only because it's so rare for them to score high.
Thanks again everyone!
posted by Sakura3210 at 7:11 AM on May 7, 2010
Response by poster: My mistake, T.J. Strange is right - schools now take the highest LSAT, although I've heard that T3 may average for their own purposes.
posted by Sakura3210 at 7:16 AM on May 7, 2010
posted by Sakura3210 at 7:16 AM on May 7, 2010
Response by poster: Ah, sorry, one more! I'm wondering if they offered me a deferal because they're over their class limit. If so, maybe they'd be willing to give me more money for defering? I'm not sure...
posted by Sakura3210 at 7:20 AM on May 7, 2010
posted by Sakura3210 at 7:20 AM on May 7, 2010
Best answer: I think some of the "T3 / T6" language is obfuscating for those who might not be up-to-speed. As I read it, OP has been accepted to Columbia, the University of Chicago, or NYU (with scholarship), but really has her heart set on Yale, Harvard or Stanford.
OP, are you interested in federal clerkships or academia? Or BigLaw? BigLaw NY/DC/Chicago, or elsewhere? If you are an under-represented minority (black, hispanic), if you do well you will have opportunities at ANY of these schools. (Note: the calculus is different for Asians. )
There is certainly a cachet to Yale among academics. And I think the federal clerkship numbers are slightly higher there. However, Columbia, Chicago and NYU all have sent graduates to prestigious federal clerkships. (For OT2010, I count Chicago with a Scalia clerk and Columbia with a Ginsburg clerk. And, uh... 12 clerks from Harvard and Yale. (Source: AbovetheLaw)
I think you are balancing a year of your time, against the chance that you might have a slightly better opportunity for federal clerkships, academia or other forms of superstardom. It is NOT a certainty; there are many people who attend top law schools that never aspire (or are able to aspire) to superstardom.
For the most part, at this level, that means BigLaw. It pays the bills, and the bills are hefty. However, right now, large law firms are going through an amazingly severe economic crisis. Law firms are laying off / deferring associates left and right. There are Harvard law school grads doing doc review at $20 an hour. (I've seen the resumes.) (The top of the class does fine. Disadvantaged minorities, because of firm and corporate diversity initiatives, have even more opportunities at BigLaw and beyond.)
Haddock has given you excellent advice. He said: The ONLY mitigating factor here is that the economy is still pretty shitty. I would NOT defer in the hopes of getting into HYS, but you might consider whether a year's deferral would put you into an entering class that may have more opportunities at graduation. It is an extremely competitive market out there these days. My firm's summer class is, I think, half the size it was a couple of years ago. I concur wholeheartedly and am repeating it verbatim with emphasis here because it is SO easy to let that get lost in the shuffle.
Absent superstardom in law school (clerkships), deferring a year puts you on the job market in 2015 as opposed to 2014. I don't know anyone who is prognosticating with certainty over what the economy will be like in 2015 versus 2014. However, we can say with certainty NOW that for 2011, there is a glut of junior associates in BigLaw because of the mass deferral of associate classes in 2009 and 2010.
I don't know if the deferrals will continue. If we have a decent recovery, I think we will see law firms with a "talent crisis" around 2015 -- because there may be very few competent mid-level associates. That may mean more opportunities for new law grads. But that's all highly speculative and makes all kinds of assumptions.
This is not an easy question, and a year of life "deferral" is a huge deal. However, with a sweet scholarship to Columbia, NYU or UChicago, know that you are in an awesome position with the potential for a bright future.
posted by QuantumMeruit at 7:39 AM on May 7, 2010
OP, are you interested in federal clerkships or academia? Or BigLaw? BigLaw NY/DC/Chicago, or elsewhere? If you are an under-represented minority (black, hispanic), if you do well you will have opportunities at ANY of these schools. (Note: the calculus is different for Asians. )
There is certainly a cachet to Yale among academics. And I think the federal clerkship numbers are slightly higher there. However, Columbia, Chicago and NYU all have sent graduates to prestigious federal clerkships. (For OT2010, I count Chicago with a Scalia clerk and Columbia with a Ginsburg clerk. And, uh... 12 clerks from Harvard and Yale. (Source: AbovetheLaw)
I think you are balancing a year of your time, against the chance that you might have a slightly better opportunity for federal clerkships, academia or other forms of superstardom. It is NOT a certainty; there are many people who attend top law schools that never aspire (or are able to aspire) to superstardom.
For the most part, at this level, that means BigLaw. It pays the bills, and the bills are hefty. However, right now, large law firms are going through an amazingly severe economic crisis. Law firms are laying off / deferring associates left and right. There are Harvard law school grads doing doc review at $20 an hour. (I've seen the resumes.) (The top of the class does fine. Disadvantaged minorities, because of firm and corporate diversity initiatives, have even more opportunities at BigLaw and beyond.)
Haddock has given you excellent advice. He said: The ONLY mitigating factor here is that the economy is still pretty shitty. I would NOT defer in the hopes of getting into HYS, but you might consider whether a year's deferral would put you into an entering class that may have more opportunities at graduation. It is an extremely competitive market out there these days. My firm's summer class is, I think, half the size it was a couple of years ago. I concur wholeheartedly and am repeating it verbatim with emphasis here because it is SO easy to let that get lost in the shuffle.
Absent superstardom in law school (clerkships), deferring a year puts you on the job market in 2015 as opposed to 2014. I don't know anyone who is prognosticating with certainty over what the economy will be like in 2015 versus 2014. However, we can say with certainty NOW that for 2011, there is a glut of junior associates in BigLaw because of the mass deferral of associate classes in 2009 and 2010.
I don't know if the deferrals will continue. If we have a decent recovery, I think we will see law firms with a "talent crisis" around 2015 -- because there may be very few competent mid-level associates. That may mean more opportunities for new law grads. But that's all highly speculative and makes all kinds of assumptions.
This is not an easy question, and a year of life "deferral" is a huge deal. However, with a sweet scholarship to Columbia, NYU or UChicago, know that you are in an awesome position with the potential for a bright future.
posted by QuantumMeruit at 7:39 AM on May 7, 2010
Just realized on reading things over that for someone contemplating matriculating in the fall of 2010, that puts you on the job market with the associate class starting in the fall of 2013. Deferral puts you on the job market in the fall of 2014.
posted by QuantumMeruit at 7:45 AM on May 7, 2010
posted by QuantumMeruit at 7:45 AM on May 7, 2010
i've taught LSAT prep for years. Without a doubt, moving from the high 160s to the 170s is one of the more challenging leaps to make.
What did those leapers do?
- take EVERY exam and go over every question obsessively and in teams. For every 1 hour of test taking, 2.5 hours of review. Most often with a tutor or with another LSATer dedicated to helping.
- dedicate an entire summer with no other distractions. FULL TIME 9-5.
If you know that you can do these things, go for the October test. I've never seen a mid/high-160s to 170s leap done in any other way. It doesn't help from just studying or taking a class or studying a few hours a day. Trust me, I've seen dozens of students try to do this.
in summary, your chance of making this score move are pretty slim. Take the T6.
posted by k8t at 8:21 AM on May 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
What did those leapers do?
- take EVERY exam and go over every question obsessively and in teams. For every 1 hour of test taking, 2.5 hours of review. Most often with a tutor or with another LSATer dedicated to helping.
- dedicate an entire summer with no other distractions. FULL TIME 9-5.
If you know that you can do these things, go for the October test. I've never seen a mid/high-160s to 170s leap done in any other way. It doesn't help from just studying or taking a class or studying a few hours a day. Trust me, I've seen dozens of students try to do this.
in summary, your chance of making this score move are pretty slim. Take the T6.
posted by k8t at 8:21 AM on May 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
Best answer: This is a tough question to answer because I can't tell why you want to go to HYS versus a school a few slots down. Which did you like better when you visited? These schools attract different types of people and have different outlooks -- which was the right fit for you? Harvard is enormous and more practical, Yale is small and theoretical and generates lots of professors and non-law-firm lawyers, NYU attracts more public service-oriented folks than Columbia, and so on. What are you looking for?
In terms of careers, there is very little you can do with a degree from Harvard, Yale, or Stanford that you could not do with a degree from Columbia, Chicago, or NYU. I say this as someone who turned down the former to attend the latter. If you want a job at a law firm, a legal non-profit, or a district court or circuit clerkship, you can do that without needing to be at the top of your class, whether you go to T3 or T6. If you want to do a fellowship or teach, you might have a slightly easier time of it if you are T3, but you can absolutely still do it, provided you have the grades and the clerkship. The only thing I can think of where you might be at a deficit is for a U.S. Supreme Court clerkship. For whatever reason, Harvard and Yale dominate. But it's a very small population that has the chops for that anyway, and an even smaller group that actually makes it, so it's not a great basis for a decision anyway.
If your interest in Harvard, Yale, or Stanford is purely a prestiege thing, I would not wait a year and sacrifice the scholarship for a chance at maybe getting in at a school one notch above where you've gotten in. Your chances could actually be worse next time around, depending on who your competition is, and the benefits (unless you don't like the school you've gotten the scholarship from) are far from certain. Not being in debt up to your eyeballs can actually afford you more opportunities than moving a few notches in the rankings.
posted by *s at 9:03 AM on May 7, 2010
In terms of careers, there is very little you can do with a degree from Harvard, Yale, or Stanford that you could not do with a degree from Columbia, Chicago, or NYU. I say this as someone who turned down the former to attend the latter. If you want a job at a law firm, a legal non-profit, or a district court or circuit clerkship, you can do that without needing to be at the top of your class, whether you go to T3 or T6. If you want to do a fellowship or teach, you might have a slightly easier time of it if you are T3, but you can absolutely still do it, provided you have the grades and the clerkship. The only thing I can think of where you might be at a deficit is for a U.S. Supreme Court clerkship. For whatever reason, Harvard and Yale dominate. But it's a very small population that has the chops for that anyway, and an even smaller group that actually makes it, so it's not a great basis for a decision anyway.
If your interest in Harvard, Yale, or Stanford is purely a prestiege thing, I would not wait a year and sacrifice the scholarship for a chance at maybe getting in at a school one notch above where you've gotten in. Your chances could actually be worse next time around, depending on who your competition is, and the benefits (unless you don't like the school you've gotten the scholarship from) are far from certain. Not being in debt up to your eyeballs can actually afford you more opportunities than moving a few notches in the rankings.
posted by *s at 9:03 AM on May 7, 2010
Best answer: Please do not think that holding out for a degree from a particular law school is buying you a specific future. It is not. The only quantifiable, definate and predictable piece of data in terms of outcome here is the amount of debt with which you will be faced unpon graduation.
Carrying half the debt of your classmates gives you, in many ways, twice the options for your future. Do not under estimatethe value of that.
posted by DarlingBri at 10:09 AM on May 7, 2010 [2 favorites]
Carrying half the debt of your classmates gives you, in many ways, twice the options for your future. Do not under estimatethe value of that.
posted by DarlingBri at 10:09 AM on May 7, 2010 [2 favorites]
Go where the money is. On days where I do budgets and think about my loans, I sure wish I had.
posted by dpx.mfx at 6:55 AM on May 11, 2010
posted by dpx.mfx at 6:55 AM on May 11, 2010
Response by poster: Thanks everyone! Decided to not defer, and am looking forward to starting school this fall!
posted by Sakura3210 at 4:40 PM on July 23, 2010
posted by Sakura3210 at 4:40 PM on July 23, 2010
This thread is closed to new comments.
If you had a great plan for the year off (i.e., some sort of life-changing, forever-memorable experience), then I might say roll the dice. But, since your plan is mainly to prepare for law school, I say just start getting it over with.
posted by griseus at 5:49 AM on May 7, 2010