Write a history thesis or learn Chinese?
May 5, 2010 12:31 AM Subscribe
Should I major in history or learn Chinese?
I'm a first-year undergraduate in a college with an absolutely top-notch history department--which is fantastic, since history is one of my great intellectual passions. I'm also an American-born Chinese who can barely speak Mandarin and thus can neither communicate with many of my relatives nor truly understand the culture my family has been rooted in for generations. Since I'm already majoring in biology, I don't have time to major in history and take Chinese. Hence the binary.
I want to major in history (as opposed to just taking lots of history classes while also taking Chinese) mostly because writing a history thesis really appeals to me: instead of doing fragmentary work in disparate courses, I could immerse myself in one topic, draw out and analyze a historical narrative, write something substantial that I know I'd never do on my own. I've read (and sort of written) academic history papers before, so I'm pretty sure I know what I'm getting into. The history department here doesn't offer minors and is inflexible about special arrangements, so a major would be my only chance to do this; I've looked into other minors that involve writing a thesis, but they're in other subject areas that just don't interest me as much. Since I'm planning on being a biology professor, a history major would be completely useless. This is actually part of the appeal. College is a time--maybe the only time--when I can actually indulge my useless passion for Soviet Russian archives, so why not indulge?
On the other hand, not knowing Chinese has been a source of personal guilt, shame, and anguish for years and years. I feel disconnected from my heritage. Moreover, Chinese is fascinating language (so much meaning compressed in such short phrases!), and I'd like to escape from my monolingual prison. I have more opportunity than most to learn Chinese outside the classroom, but because it's so easy to speak in English or just remain silent, I think I'd have to knuckle down in the classroom to really learn the language.
My general feeling is that majoring in history would be a lot more fun than learning Chinese, but would have an immensely smaller payoff. I also feel that I'll have more of a chance to learn Chinese than to write history papers in later life, but then again, there will always be excuses to put off learning the language. My friends think that I should major in history; my family thinks that's ridiculous and I should learn Chinese.
Lastly, not majoring in biology is not an option because molecular biology is the love of my life.
tl;dr. I know you're all strangers on the internet, but I'd really like advice on what/how to choose here. Personal anecdotes about what a history major really entails, benefits of majoring in an intellectual passion and/or learning a language, etc. would also be great. Thank you!
I'm a first-year undergraduate in a college with an absolutely top-notch history department--which is fantastic, since history is one of my great intellectual passions. I'm also an American-born Chinese who can barely speak Mandarin and thus can neither communicate with many of my relatives nor truly understand the culture my family has been rooted in for generations. Since I'm already majoring in biology, I don't have time to major in history and take Chinese. Hence the binary.
I want to major in history (as opposed to just taking lots of history classes while also taking Chinese) mostly because writing a history thesis really appeals to me: instead of doing fragmentary work in disparate courses, I could immerse myself in one topic, draw out and analyze a historical narrative, write something substantial that I know I'd never do on my own. I've read (and sort of written) academic history papers before, so I'm pretty sure I know what I'm getting into. The history department here doesn't offer minors and is inflexible about special arrangements, so a major would be my only chance to do this; I've looked into other minors that involve writing a thesis, but they're in other subject areas that just don't interest me as much. Since I'm planning on being a biology professor, a history major would be completely useless. This is actually part of the appeal. College is a time--maybe the only time--when I can actually indulge my useless passion for Soviet Russian archives, so why not indulge?
On the other hand, not knowing Chinese has been a source of personal guilt, shame, and anguish for years and years. I feel disconnected from my heritage. Moreover, Chinese is fascinating language (so much meaning compressed in such short phrases!), and I'd like to escape from my monolingual prison. I have more opportunity than most to learn Chinese outside the classroom, but because it's so easy to speak in English or just remain silent, I think I'd have to knuckle down in the classroom to really learn the language.
My general feeling is that majoring in history would be a lot more fun than learning Chinese, but would have an immensely smaller payoff. I also feel that I'll have more of a chance to learn Chinese than to write history papers in later life, but then again, there will always be excuses to put off learning the language. My friends think that I should major in history; my family thinks that's ridiculous and I should learn Chinese.
Lastly, not majoring in biology is not an option because molecular biology is the love of my life.
tl;dr. I know you're all strangers on the internet, but I'd really like advice on what/how to choose here. Personal anecdotes about what a history major really entails, benefits of majoring in an intellectual passion and/or learning a language, etc. would also be great. Thank you!
I also feel that I'll have more of a chance to learn Chinese than to write history papers in later life, but then again, there will always be excuses to put off learning the language. My friends think that I should major in history; my family thinks that's ridiculous and I should learn Chinese.Although I sympathise with your family and your obvious desire to learn Chinese, you should be more convinced by your friends and your own sense of what you want to get out of your university. Honestly you're conflating the two very separate decisions of "what should I do with the degree I'm studying?" and "what would I like to learn in my life?"
You don't need the resources and discipline of a university to learn a language well enough to assuage your personal/family "guilt, shame and anguish". Go travelling, work in China or in a country with a Chinese minority, you'll pick it up fast. You do need the resources—especially the library and databases—and discipline of a university to learn how to do history though, especially if it involves archival research.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 12:44 AM on May 5, 2010
First of all, have you taken any upper-level history seminars? Because those should give you an opportunity to do work approaching the intensity of a thesis. Certainly you should be taking courses of a caliber in which you don't feel constrained by the syllabus. Sometimes not majoring in a subject gives you delicious freedom to avoid eras or regions you're not interested in.
Secondly, you should study Chinese this summer, supplemented by lots of interaction with family members. A community college course would be fine, or you can purchase some textbooks. Perhaps you can trade teaching Chinese with teaching English. It sounds as though you're more interested in speaking than in reading/writing. If that's the case, then studying Chinese in a (presumably intensive) course will be a major waste of time and effort. You'll be memorizing 50-100 characters a night, only to lose them a few years later if you don't use them.
At the very least, after giving it a go for a summer, you'll have a much better idea of where your priorities lie.
posted by acidic at 1:13 AM on May 5, 2010
Secondly, you should study Chinese this summer, supplemented by lots of interaction with family members. A community college course would be fine, or you can purchase some textbooks. Perhaps you can trade teaching Chinese with teaching English. It sounds as though you're more interested in speaking than in reading/writing. If that's the case, then studying Chinese in a (presumably intensive) course will be a major waste of time and effort. You'll be memorizing 50-100 characters a night, only to lose them a few years later if you don't use them.
At the very least, after giving it a go for a summer, you'll have a much better idea of where your priorities lie.
posted by acidic at 1:13 AM on May 5, 2010
Whichever one you don't study now, you can study on the side in grad school (or outside school).
I study History (and Philosophy) and plan to learn a new language by living somewhere new for a few years.
Sometimes-conflicting advices:
*Follow your passion. (Life is short; eat dessert first.) (History)
*Learn the harder stuff while you're young. (Eat your vegetables!) (Chinese)
(Solution: pumpkin pie?) (Study abroad?)
posted by aniola at 1:17 AM on May 5, 2010
I study History (and Philosophy) and plan to learn a new language by living somewhere new for a few years.
Sometimes-conflicting advices:
*Follow your passion. (Life is short; eat dessert first.) (History)
*Learn the harder stuff while you're young. (Eat your vegetables!) (Chinese)
(Solution: pumpkin pie?) (Study abroad?)
posted by aniola at 1:17 AM on May 5, 2010
You're not going to really learn a language as a second major in college, not to fluency. I doubt you'd even be able to gain marginal competence in written Chinese in four years of majoring in molecular biology. You'll be at a grade-school level, maybe, having wasted a bunch of your time.
posted by mr_roboto at 1:30 AM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by mr_roboto at 1:30 AM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
Speaking as a guy with an undergraduate history degree: study Chinese. Do also take some history classes, if history interests you, but understand that while you can read history at any time you wish, in college or beyond, your opportunities for formal study of Chinese in the future will be a lot more limited.
Why not pick up two minors instead of one second major? That'd let you do both, if your institution permits.
posted by killdevil at 1:35 AM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
Why not pick up two minors instead of one second major? That'd let you do both, if your institution permits.
posted by killdevil at 1:35 AM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
You can buy a history book from Amazon at any time you wish, but you won't have access to primary sources and everything else at your college's magnificent library. Many people learn Chinese later in life by taking cheap community college courses. I'm sure U of C has top-notch Chinese instructors, too, but quality of instruction is comparatively much more important in history than in Chinese. For Chinese, everyone will learn it eventually if they work hard enough. For history, a great professor can be life-changing.
posted by acidic at 1:41 AM on May 5, 2010
posted by acidic at 1:41 AM on May 5, 2010
You can probably learn Chinese to a decent standard in your own time, as you can work more efficiently than normal language classes.
Tim Ferris apparently has some info in his pay site, but I haven't seen it.
You can use things like mind maps...check out the Tony Buzan books on memory, use anki that kind of thing.
When you get semi ok you can learn by talking to people!
posted by Not Supplied at 1:44 AM on May 5, 2010
Tim Ferris apparently has some info in his pay site, but I haven't seen it.
You can use things like mind maps...check out the Tony Buzan books on memory, use anki that kind of thing.
When you get semi ok you can learn by talking to people!
posted by Not Supplied at 1:44 AM on May 5, 2010
Tim Ferris=4 hour working week..you get an entry code by buying his book.
posted by Not Supplied at 1:45 AM on May 5, 2010
posted by Not Supplied at 1:45 AM on May 5, 2010
It's easier to learn a language when you are younger, and it's easier to build on a formal structure. I am currently studying a language in my spare time, and I am making progress, but it is pretty slow, just because I don't have the focus and my class meets once a week. On the other hand, I read history pretty frequently, and slow progress there doesn't seem to hurt my comprehension any.
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:54 AM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:54 AM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
I suspect your ability to 'barely speak' Mandarin will put you at a massive advantage over other beginning learners - non-natives often struggle with the tonal nature of the spoken language which will likely not be an issue for you if you've heard it spoken from childhood. You may well find taking a formal course opens the floodgates to half-remembered stuff you've stored up over the years interacting with family and you make rapid progress.
As to whether that's a better choice than undergrad history I'm not sure.
posted by Abiezer at 3:10 AM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
As to whether that's a better choice than undergrad history I'm not sure.
posted by Abiezer at 3:10 AM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
acidic: I would say (as a student of Chinese) that quality of instruction is much more important with Chinese -- and much rarer. A lot of teachers are native speakers of Chinese, which means that a lot of them are not very good at explaining the trickier features of the language, since it's something that they've lived with since birth.
OP: now is a better time than ever before for prospective students of Chinese, I'd say. More and more universities are offering programs, and the quality of instruction is gradually going up; at the same time, if you'd like to try studying on your own, there are a few really good self-study resources out there online, like ChinesePod and Popup Chinese. Disclaimer: I do some work for Popup Chinese, but I really do think it's one of the two best sites of its kind; I have friends at ChinesePod, but ditto. That said, if you're starting out from zero, you might well be better served by ChinesePod, as Popup Chinese has a heavier focus on intermediate and advanced learners. At any rate, I've got friends at both companies, and think that both of the sites would have been great to have around when I was starting my study of Chinese. Both have free trials, so check them out and see if they do anything for you.
Both history and Chinese are subjects where you'll benefit from interacting with teachers. On the other hand, if you've got Mandarin-speaking family members, you can co-opt them into being your language partners. Why not try taking (or sitting in on) a semester or two of introductory Chinese, getting enough of a grounding in the language to proceed on your own, and then going for the history degree?
posted by bokane at 3:12 AM on May 5, 2010
OP: now is a better time than ever before for prospective students of Chinese, I'd say. More and more universities are offering programs, and the quality of instruction is gradually going up; at the same time, if you'd like to try studying on your own, there are a few really good self-study resources out there online, like ChinesePod and Popup Chinese. Disclaimer: I do some work for Popup Chinese, but I really do think it's one of the two best sites of its kind; I have friends at ChinesePod, but ditto. That said, if you're starting out from zero, you might well be better served by ChinesePod, as Popup Chinese has a heavier focus on intermediate and advanced learners. At any rate, I've got friends at both companies, and think that both of the sites would have been great to have around when I was starting my study of Chinese. Both have free trials, so check them out and see if they do anything for you.
Both history and Chinese are subjects where you'll benefit from interacting with teachers. On the other hand, if you've got Mandarin-speaking family members, you can co-opt them into being your language partners. Why not try taking (or sitting in on) a semester or two of introductory Chinese, getting enough of a grounding in the language to proceed on your own, and then going for the history degree?
posted by bokane at 3:12 AM on May 5, 2010
I agree with those who say that while some of the internet resources are good, if you want to learn long-term, you should look for a teacher. You've got family who speaks, which gives you an advantage, and you probably learned some basics at a very young age, which is great, but a good, rigorous, professional teacher is still absolutely necessary.
Most sciences are undertaken in English, and while a biology/Chinese major might make you the 'go to guy' for some jobs, they might not be the jobs you want. It would be worth talking to a trusted advisor in biology to see what they think the professional advantage of speaking Chinese would be -- in my experience, it is always slightly less than advertised, due to the ubiquity of English in the Chinese academy and the narrowing-but-still-very-wide gap between investment levels in the sciences in Europe/US and China.
My second piece of advice is to figure out what track you would be in if you took four years of Chinese -- heritage speakers often take an advanced class that allows them to skip a year of study, and that puts them in a fifth-year course in literature/classical Chinese/applied business Chinese that leaves students with many more skills than the standard "Chinese I -- Chinese IV" track. Look at the things that students in the track you'd be in can do by the time they finish school. Can they read short stories? How are their conversation skills? Can they do the things you're imagining you want to do? Nobody ever learns _all_ of Chinese without immersion -- there are plenty of fifth-level students out there who can't say 'doorknob' or 'underarm' (they can, however, say "after the Reform and Opening policy, the Chinese economy...blah blah"). Maybe talk to a Chinese-American senior who has gone through what you're considering. Is he or she happy with their skills? US universities are graduating a lot of people with not-particularly-usable Mandarin, and although UC's program is really good, don't assume that you will get exactly what you want out of the work you do in class -- it may require hard work in fields you're not interested in, or keep you circling over the same few skills for too long. Fortunately, you can look into this stuff before you make any choices.
On the other hand, if you double-major in history and all goes well, by the end of your degree you actually will be able to research and write a short history or biography. Lots of people can do that, and I agree with many above that it's possible to learn on your own -- but considering that this is a second major to something that you already prefer and already has better professional promise, it doesn't seem like a bad idea. I'd choose it simply because it will inject subjectivity, analysis and critical thinking into your education (past what most courses in molecular biology will require, although I accept that the discipline itself requires creativity and vision), and keep you from memorizing molecular structure in the morning and stroke order in the afternoon.
It's a lot of time you're going to be spending on whatever you choose: doing even five hours of pre-research could make your decision so much easier (and get your parents off your case, if that becomes an issue).
posted by Valet at 3:30 AM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
Most sciences are undertaken in English, and while a biology/Chinese major might make you the 'go to guy' for some jobs, they might not be the jobs you want. It would be worth talking to a trusted advisor in biology to see what they think the professional advantage of speaking Chinese would be -- in my experience, it is always slightly less than advertised, due to the ubiquity of English in the Chinese academy and the narrowing-but-still-very-wide gap between investment levels in the sciences in Europe/US and China.
My second piece of advice is to figure out what track you would be in if you took four years of Chinese -- heritage speakers often take an advanced class that allows them to skip a year of study, and that puts them in a fifth-year course in literature/classical Chinese/applied business Chinese that leaves students with many more skills than the standard "Chinese I -- Chinese IV" track. Look at the things that students in the track you'd be in can do by the time they finish school. Can they read short stories? How are their conversation skills? Can they do the things you're imagining you want to do? Nobody ever learns _all_ of Chinese without immersion -- there are plenty of fifth-level students out there who can't say 'doorknob' or 'underarm' (they can, however, say "after the Reform and Opening policy, the Chinese economy...blah blah"). Maybe talk to a Chinese-American senior who has gone through what you're considering. Is he or she happy with their skills? US universities are graduating a lot of people with not-particularly-usable Mandarin, and although UC's program is really good, don't assume that you will get exactly what you want out of the work you do in class -- it may require hard work in fields you're not interested in, or keep you circling over the same few skills for too long. Fortunately, you can look into this stuff before you make any choices.
On the other hand, if you double-major in history and all goes well, by the end of your degree you actually will be able to research and write a short history or biography. Lots of people can do that, and I agree with many above that it's possible to learn on your own -- but considering that this is a second major to something that you already prefer and already has better professional promise, it doesn't seem like a bad idea. I'd choose it simply because it will inject subjectivity, analysis and critical thinking into your education (past what most courses in molecular biology will require, although I accept that the discipline itself requires creativity and vision), and keep you from memorizing molecular structure in the morning and stroke order in the afternoon.
It's a lot of time you're going to be spending on whatever you choose: doing even five hours of pre-research could make your decision so much easier (and get your parents off your case, if that becomes an issue).
posted by Valet at 3:30 AM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
If you were talking about two potential dating partners, one of whom you're fascinated by and passionate about, who stimulates you intellectually and one of whom comes from the same background as you and your family approves of and you'd feel like you were disappointing them if you didn't date them - which would you choose? It sounds to me like you know what you want already and you're looking for backup.
Also, Chinese is damn hard.
posted by zanni at 3:44 AM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
Also, Chinese is damn hard.
posted by zanni at 3:44 AM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
Writing a history thesis in undergrad is a waste of time unless you want to go to grad school for history. Seriously, it sounds fun, but if you're already majoring in bio, you're basically just asking to spend 1-2 more years in college than you probably planned. This is what happened to all of my classmates who were in the program to write a thesis but were double-majoring. -person who wrote a history thesis in undergrad with no intention of going to grad school for history.
posted by ishotjr at 4:21 AM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by ishotjr at 4:21 AM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
What type of history are you interested in? As far as I know, there aren't many universities that will just let you major in "history" without declaring an area (or two) of interest. So I say: why not study Chinese history? Once you get past the introductory classes, I bet you could even convince the history department to count a few Chinese literature classes toward your major.
posted by oinopaponton at 4:29 AM on May 5, 2010
posted by oinopaponton at 4:29 AM on May 5, 2010
Also, Chinese is damn hard.
From that article:
Also, it's hard to imagine that Chinese is more difficult then Japanese, a language that uses Chinese characters, but pronounces them in all sorts of different ways and has a complex grammar with lots of subtly and nuance. Plus two syllabaries!
---
Also, in my personal experience learning to recognize the characters (as opposed to writing them by hand) is not that difficult. And with modern computers, you just sound out the word you want with pin-yin, and then pick the appropriate character. So as long as you know what a word sounds like and can recognize the character, you can write Chinese on a computer (And that's not using a special program, but the normal input method that people use in China, and will work in any Unicode supporting windows program)
Don't be scared off by people who say Chinese is super hard.
posted by delmoi at 4:33 AM on May 5, 2010
From that article:
So part of what I'm contending is that Chinese is hard compared to ... well, compared to almost any other language you might care to tackle. What I mean is that Chinese is not only hard for us (English speakers), but it's also hard in absolute terms. Which means that Chinese is also hard for them, for Chinese people.1Oh man, that's nonsense. Learning and memorizing a large number of Chinese characters is probably hard. BUT the spoken language is actually really simple. Actually a lot of people say that English is one of the hardest languages, in absolute terms, to learn as a second language. But lots of people do it. Think about it: many of our words are not spelled phonetically at all. And top of that our grammar is extreemly complex.
If you don't believe this, just ask a Chinese person. Most Chinese people will cheerfully acknowledge that their language is hard, maybe the hardest on earth.
Also, it's hard to imagine that Chinese is more difficult then Japanese, a language that uses Chinese characters, but pronounces them in all sorts of different ways and has a complex grammar with lots of subtly and nuance. Plus two syllabaries!
---
Also, in my personal experience learning to recognize the characters (as opposed to writing them by hand) is not that difficult. And with modern computers, you just sound out the word you want with pin-yin, and then pick the appropriate character. So as long as you know what a word sounds like and can recognize the character, you can write Chinese on a computer (And that's not using a special program, but the normal input method that people use in China, and will work in any Unicode supporting windows program)
Don't be scared off by people who say Chinese is super hard.
posted by delmoi at 4:33 AM on May 5, 2010
If you were talking about two potential dating partners, one of whom you're fascinated by and passionate about, who stimulates you intellectually and one of whom comes from the same background as you and your family approves of and you'd feel like you were disappointing them if you didn't date them - which would you choose?With the difference that you can still go off and have fun with the other one on the weekends whenever you like. The "Dating partner" analogy doesn't work at all.
Also, I think it would be a lot easier to learn history on your own then Chinese. All you have to do is read books. But having someone teach you Chinese will be very helpful, since you'll have someone to interact with in that language, correct your pronunciation, etc.
posted by delmoi at 4:36 AM on May 5, 2010
I don't completely understand why you can't do both, though it would mean a heavy courseload. Since you're doing a double major, is there any chance you could take 5 years to graduate instead of the usual 4?
Regardless, I'd vote for history. Summers could be a good time to study the language: if you can take a whole summer off, you can do immersion programs, and if you decide to do biology research at a university instead (since you want to be a professor) you can take Chinese classes then on the side. You can also take Chinese in grad school.
It's true that learning a language is easier when you're young, but as far as I know the "young" in question is supposed to be some age range way under 18.
Out of curiosity, do you already know Russian? Will you need to learn it if you want to study Soviet archives? Maybe you could do something about Soviet-Chinese relations or something along those lines and be able to fold in the Chinese as part of your history major?
posted by trig at 4:55 AM on May 5, 2010
Regardless, I'd vote for history. Summers could be a good time to study the language: if you can take a whole summer off, you can do immersion programs, and if you decide to do biology research at a university instead (since you want to be a professor) you can take Chinese classes then on the side. You can also take Chinese in grad school.
It's true that learning a language is easier when you're young, but as far as I know the "young" in question is supposed to be some age range way under 18.
Out of curiosity, do you already know Russian? Will you need to learn it if you want to study Soviet archives? Maybe you could do something about Soviet-Chinese relations or something along those lines and be able to fold in the Chinese as part of your history major?
posted by trig at 4:55 AM on May 5, 2010
Major in history, while taking classes in Chinese at a Chinese school (you know? The ones that many Chinese parents send their kids to?) on Saturdays.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 5:01 AM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 5:01 AM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
If you learn Chinese first, you will have full access to TWO accounts of history -- the English account, and the Chinese account. That is power.
posted by fake at 5:42 AM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by fake at 5:42 AM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
My general feeling is that majoring in history would be a lot more fun than learning Chinese, but would have an immensely smaller payoff.
Ding. China is the world's next super power. A cursory glance at the covers of the Economist over the past year or so is all you need to do if you want to figure out which choice here is going to prove more valuable in the long run.
I'm 31 and instead of going back to do grad work in my area of expertise, I'm strongly considering quitting my job to just move to China and study Chinese. There will not, in our lifetime be a lack of jobs for those who can speak fluent English and Chinese (barring something horrific, or perhaps that might even have a growth-effect on the need for such individuals) .
posted by allkindsoftime at 5:43 AM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
Ding. China is the world's next super power. A cursory glance at the covers of the Economist over the past year or so is all you need to do if you want to figure out which choice here is going to prove more valuable in the long run.
I'm 31 and instead of going back to do grad work in my area of expertise, I'm strongly considering quitting my job to just move to China and study Chinese. There will not, in our lifetime be a lack of jobs for those who can speak fluent English and Chinese (barring something horrific, or perhaps that might even have a growth-effect on the need for such individuals) .
posted by allkindsoftime at 5:43 AM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
I agree with delmoi. But I still think you should study Chinese.
Yes, you can learn Chinese any time you want, while the history program at the University of Chicago is world-famous. So only a fool would turn down such a wonderful opportunity, right? Unless history is that useless of a career choice that merely having a grasp of Chinese would leave you in a better position overall.
And I would agree with that. As a former history major. Language opens doors that are otherwise completely inaccessible to you. A history degree opens you to teaching history, or four years of expensive self-enrichment.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 6:07 AM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
Yes, you can learn Chinese any time you want, while the history program at the University of Chicago is world-famous. So only a fool would turn down such a wonderful opportunity, right? Unless history is that useless of a career choice that merely having a grasp of Chinese would leave you in a better position overall.
And I would agree with that. As a former history major. Language opens doors that are otherwise completely inaccessible to you. A history degree opens you to teaching history, or four years of expensive self-enrichment.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 6:07 AM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
As I read this, you've already settled on biology as a major, and presumably career path. That puts a slightly different spin on this. Without that, I might say go for the history degree. But Chinese is indeed going to be far more useful in practical terms, especially if you're going into a science career.
If you love history, that's cool (hey, so do I!) but if you're not planning on an academic career as a history professor, a college major is not the way to indulge that passion. It would be sort of like going to med school because you enjoy the character development in House.
So I'd say take the Chinese. It will help you professionally and personally. The better way to indulge your love of history is to study it on your own in whatever spare time your career and your rocking bilingual social life leave you. History lends itself to this approach. You can read up on whatever interests you instead of having to conform to a program, if you discover a topic that attracts you, you can follow it where you will, even write a book about it eventually.
In short, I think speaking Chinese will help you a lot, while majoring in history would not be the most effective way of keeping history in your life.
posted by Naberius at 6:21 AM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
If you love history, that's cool (hey, so do I!) but if you're not planning on an academic career as a history professor, a college major is not the way to indulge that passion. It would be sort of like going to med school because you enjoy the character development in House.
So I'd say take the Chinese. It will help you professionally and personally. The better way to indulge your love of history is to study it on your own in whatever spare time your career and your rocking bilingual social life leave you. History lends itself to this approach. You can read up on whatever interests you instead of having to conform to a program, if you discover a topic that attracts you, you can follow it where you will, even write a book about it eventually.
In short, I think speaking Chinese will help you a lot, while majoring in history would not be the most effective way of keeping history in your life.
posted by Naberius at 6:21 AM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
A history degree opens you to teaching history, or four years of expensive self-enrichment.
Very well said.
An undergrad degree in history pretty much amounts to personal gratification, but won't really be helpful much anywhere else. (I've got a BA and MA in History). Unless you go to a school where they really expect their undergrads to perform, you also won't really be getting into the in depth analytical areas of history. Your senior thesis will pretty much amount to what might be considered a chapter in a Master's thesis, and unless someone has published a book with papers from the Soviet archives, you certainly won't be expected or told to take a trip to Russia to go through such things. More likely, you'll end up writing about twenty to thirty page paper based on five to seven books...if you have a good archival collection at your school or in the nearby area, you may have some neat primary sources, too.
What I'm trying to express is that what you can gain from a BA in history is what anyone can gain with a good reading list for a particular topic. I felt, from my experience, and I had some great undergrad professors, that I really didn't begin to explore and understand history at an appreciable level until graduate school. It's those classes where you're in small numbers and asked to really grapple and discuss history.
From a practical standpoint, I'd say definitely take the Mandarin. It will be entirely more useful and beneficial to your career, particularly if you can build upon it into fluency. It's a lot easier to do that with a good grounding from classwork than just hopping into it on your own.
Now if you're looking for classes to relax and enjoy in after all your biology related classes, then just go ahead and take the history classes. Otherwise, you can gain pretty much anything you'd get with a history BA through a solid reading list (feel free to approach history professors and ask for reading lists).
posted by Atreides at 6:26 AM on May 5, 2010
Very well said.
An undergrad degree in history pretty much amounts to personal gratification, but won't really be helpful much anywhere else. (I've got a BA and MA in History). Unless you go to a school where they really expect their undergrads to perform, you also won't really be getting into the in depth analytical areas of history. Your senior thesis will pretty much amount to what might be considered a chapter in a Master's thesis, and unless someone has published a book with papers from the Soviet archives, you certainly won't be expected or told to take a trip to Russia to go through such things. More likely, you'll end up writing about twenty to thirty page paper based on five to seven books...if you have a good archival collection at your school or in the nearby area, you may have some neat primary sources, too.
What I'm trying to express is that what you can gain from a BA in history is what anyone can gain with a good reading list for a particular topic. I felt, from my experience, and I had some great undergrad professors, that I really didn't begin to explore and understand history at an appreciable level until graduate school. It's those classes where you're in small numbers and asked to really grapple and discuss history.
From a practical standpoint, I'd say definitely take the Mandarin. It will be entirely more useful and beneficial to your career, particularly if you can build upon it into fluency. It's a lot easier to do that with a good grounding from classwork than just hopping into it on your own.
Now if you're looking for classes to relax and enjoy in after all your biology related classes, then just go ahead and take the history classes. Otherwise, you can gain pretty much anything you'd get with a history BA through a solid reading list (feel free to approach history professors and ask for reading lists).
posted by Atreides at 6:26 AM on May 5, 2010
I spent about five years studying Spanish. Then I spent about three months in Mexico, after which I was pretty bitter about the amount of time I had wasted having stilted classroom conversations with other people who didn't speak Spanish, using textbook phrases that nobody even uses in the culture itself. Unless you can spend some serious time in China, I seriously doubt the coursework will be of much value.
Conversely, reading a history book is not the same as taking a course with the author of that book, reviewing primary documents, and so on. You'll never get to do that again. Or you may find that you're really not that interested in the history curriculum, so then you can stop and do something else.
If it were me, I'd start taking history courses and plan to study in China for a year. You'll learn the language much more efficiently, and you can take molebio and history courses at the same time.
posted by McBearclaw at 6:58 AM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
Conversely, reading a history book is not the same as taking a course with the author of that book, reviewing primary documents, and so on. You'll never get to do that again. Or you may find that you're really not that interested in the history curriculum, so then you can stop and do something else.
If it were me, I'd start taking history courses and plan to study in China for a year. You'll learn the language much more efficiently, and you can take molebio and history courses at the same time.
posted by McBearclaw at 6:58 AM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
Also: can someone comment on specifically why Chinese would be useful to an academic career in molecular biology? I often see this argument made for learning languages in general, but much less often hear of concrete examples.
posted by McBearclaw at 7:03 AM on May 5, 2010
posted by McBearclaw at 7:03 AM on May 5, 2010
I often see this argument made for learning languages in general, but much less often hear of concrete examples.
Well, for one thing, it means you're increasing your opportunity to work in China. I think it's probably a safe assumption that the numbers of research grants will increase in the upcoming decades as China pours more money into R&D to establish themselves as innovators in the global marketplace. But if you can't speak the language all those opportunities are cut off to you (unless you're some molecular biology rock star with a traveling cadre of translators). Even if your colleagues are using a common language for technical work, you still have deal with the day-to-day.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 8:15 AM on May 5, 2010
Well, for one thing, it means you're increasing your opportunity to work in China. I think it's probably a safe assumption that the numbers of research grants will increase in the upcoming decades as China pours more money into R&D to establish themselves as innovators in the global marketplace. But if you can't speak the language all those opportunities are cut off to you (unless you're some molecular biology rock star with a traveling cadre of translators). Even if your colleagues are using a common language for technical work, you still have deal with the day-to-day.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 8:15 AM on May 5, 2010
can someone comment on specifically why Chinese would be useful to an academic career in molecular biology?
Even disregarding work going on in Chinese in China, many metric tons of research are conducted every year in the rest of the world by people whose first language is Chinese. An entire industry of copyeditors has hung on through the media apocalypse by going freelance and editing journal articles for non-native English speakers. (I'm on a mailing list for copyeditors and I swear to God, this is ALL any of them seem to be doing these days, apart from the odd cookbook.)
In addition to publication, there's grant applications and all kinds of places where communications skills are crucial to scientists' careers. So it seems to me if you put a couple hundred molecular biologists in a big room, the one that speaks native English and is fluent in Chinese is going to be the prettiest girl at the prom.
posted by Naberius at 8:35 AM on May 5, 2010
Even disregarding work going on in Chinese in China, many metric tons of research are conducted every year in the rest of the world by people whose first language is Chinese. An entire industry of copyeditors has hung on through the media apocalypse by going freelance and editing journal articles for non-native English speakers. (I'm on a mailing list for copyeditors and I swear to God, this is ALL any of them seem to be doing these days, apart from the odd cookbook.)
In addition to publication, there's grant applications and all kinds of places where communications skills are crucial to scientists' careers. So it seems to me if you put a couple hundred molecular biologists in a big room, the one that speaks native English and is fluent in Chinese is going to be the prettiest girl at the prom.
posted by Naberius at 8:35 AM on May 5, 2010
I think that everyone is answering this question based on what they would rather do in this situation. It seems clear that the OP is being pressured into learning Chinese only because of family guilt. This seems a poor reason to take up something like learning a new language, because the hours can add up really easily and it's going to take a lot of intense effort to get anywhere passable. History on the other hand, he seems really passionate about. And for those who say that he could learn history any time later, as a biology graduate student, I really regret not being able to focus on more humanities type stuff in undergrad (because I was in tech-focused undergrad school in India), because there really is no time for that sort of thing in grad school. I think, if anything, learning a language would be easier to justify. I know of one girl who is learning Japanese.
posted by peacheater at 9:24 AM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by peacheater at 9:24 AM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
does your school not have a chinese for native speakers class? my uni had one (i got kicked out of the most basic one for knowing too much chinese, but my brother took it at a higher level and found it very useful- his reading chinese is now a lot better than mine). however, be aware that the undertaking of learning a language is a HUGE one. it requires a lot of time and a lot of effort. it does seem like you want to learn more for speaking and a uni class will spend a lot of time probably having you memorize vocabulary, grammar, etc. if you're not passionate about learning chinese (as opposed to just feeling guilty) than this is going to be HORRIBLE for you. you seem a lot more passionate about history and i think you'll regret dropping it, down the line.
you may want to look around your area to see if there's some kind of more casual chinese for native speakers class to appease your guilt and increase your speaking skills. also, see if there are speaking exchanges at your school. if need be, go ask the chinese department. when i was learning japanese i had several dedicated "buddies" who were international students from japan. we'd get together at a cafe or something and spend half an hour speaking in english, half an hour speaking in japanese. i learned a lot about SPEAKING that way and i think you could benefit from this kind of interaction- since it's not a family member you'd be embarrassed about speaking poor chinese to, it's a good building block for building your speaking skills.
posted by raw sugar at 10:19 AM on May 5, 2010
you may want to look around your area to see if there's some kind of more casual chinese for native speakers class to appease your guilt and increase your speaking skills. also, see if there are speaking exchanges at your school. if need be, go ask the chinese department. when i was learning japanese i had several dedicated "buddies" who were international students from japan. we'd get together at a cafe or something and spend half an hour speaking in english, half an hour speaking in japanese. i learned a lot about SPEAKING that way and i think you could benefit from this kind of interaction- since it's not a family member you'd be embarrassed about speaking poor chinese to, it's a good building block for building your speaking skills.
posted by raw sugar at 10:19 AM on May 5, 2010
I agree with delmoi. But I still think you should study Chinese.
Huh? I was arguing she should take Chinese, and study history on her own time.
posted by delmoi at 10:47 AM on May 5, 2010
Huh? I was arguing she should take Chinese, and study history on her own time.
posted by delmoi at 10:47 AM on May 5, 2010
I was in your shoes (sort of--major was computer science instead of molecular biology, part-time job instead of history thesis) in college. When I started out, I communicated with my Chinese speaking parents in what I affectionately called Chinglish--English vocabulary mixed in with Chinese grammar. I took 12 years of Saturday Chinese school in high school, but barely any of it stuck. I think the value you'll get out of learning Chinese at your school will depend on your current skill level, your passion for learning the language (China has a rich, rich history, if that helps...), the skill level of your peers, and the quality of the courses you take.
My Chinese classes were 50 minutes long, 5 days a week. We learned vocabulary and basic grammar. We performed skits that utilized the what we learned. The course was very structured, which was extremely helpful, since I could just allocate an hour (yes, an hour) every day after class to practicing writing characters/vocabulary, and then go on to work on my programming projects.
We had a lot of native speakers in my classes. This was a good thing because it made me better at speaking and listening. However, in the upper level courses that involved reading more difficult literature, it became very hard for me to keep up with them. I think my professor's expectations were increased because the other students were so good. I also noticed this problem at the lower levels, but it didn't affect me as a sort-of native speaker until the higher levels.
All told, I took about three years of university courses and devoted maybe ten hours a week to studying and learning. The result was that I could read parts of the news, easily read pop lyrics and Chinese comics, and converse intelligently with my parents. When I visited Japan, I got around partly by my ability to memorize kanji. I really value being able to speak Mandarin more fluently with my parents, because there is more nuance to our conversations. They are not always comfortable with speaking English, and being able to speak their language has helped me connect. I've noticed that these skills fade with time, although I'm still much better at speaking, listening, and reading than I was when I started.
If possible, you should try a Chinese course for a week or two to see if it suits you before making any big decisions. Your Chinese department should have a test for you to determine what level of course you should be taking.
posted by millions of peaches at 1:14 PM on May 5, 2010 [2 favorites]
My Chinese classes were 50 minutes long, 5 days a week. We learned vocabulary and basic grammar. We performed skits that utilized the what we learned. The course was very structured, which was extremely helpful, since I could just allocate an hour (yes, an hour) every day after class to practicing writing characters/vocabulary, and then go on to work on my programming projects.
We had a lot of native speakers in my classes. This was a good thing because it made me better at speaking and listening. However, in the upper level courses that involved reading more difficult literature, it became very hard for me to keep up with them. I think my professor's expectations were increased because the other students were so good. I also noticed this problem at the lower levels, but it didn't affect me as a sort-of native speaker until the higher levels.
All told, I took about three years of university courses and devoted maybe ten hours a week to studying and learning. The result was that I could read parts of the news, easily read pop lyrics and Chinese comics, and converse intelligently with my parents. When I visited Japan, I got around partly by my ability to memorize kanji. I really value being able to speak Mandarin more fluently with my parents, because there is more nuance to our conversations. They are not always comfortable with speaking English, and being able to speak their language has helped me connect. I've noticed that these skills fade with time, although I'm still much better at speaking, listening, and reading than I was when I started.
If possible, you should try a Chinese course for a week or two to see if it suits you before making any big decisions. Your Chinese department should have a test for you to determine what level of course you should be taking.
posted by millions of peaches at 1:14 PM on May 5, 2010 [2 favorites]
Er, to be clear, I had a part time programming job in addition to Chinese and computer science classes. I don't know if your thesis will take more than 15-20 hours per week of your time, but my thought is that it could be comparable to a part-time job. My schedule was pretty full, and the only reason it worked out was that the Chinese classes were good and I already had the basics of the language down. This is why I suggest a) trying the class to find out if you'll get anything out of it and b) finding out if the time commitment is reasonable before making your decision.
posted by millions of peaches at 1:37 PM on May 5, 2010
posted by millions of peaches at 1:37 PM on May 5, 2010
Why not do a summer study abroad program to delve into Chinese? There are quite a few immersive programs out there--most notably the Critical Language Initiative scholarships; the Katherine Davis Fellowships for Peace at Middlebury; and the Confucius Institute/Chinese Scholarship Council's year-long scholar program (paid, at a university of your choosing in China) or the Taiwanese Huayu Enrichment Council's Mandarin scholarships which are very similar to the CSC program but shorter-term. They'd offer you the ability to investigate in a very serious, studious way, but also to end your investigations fairly soon (at the end of the summer, for instance) if the language/etc didn't suit you.
posted by soviet sleepover at 4:42 PM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by soviet sleepover at 4:42 PM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
I say go for the history major. You'll always have opportunities later in life to pick up conversational Chinese, especially since you are an ABC and are connected to native Chinese speakers in your family, but the opportunity to write a history thesis (if that is what you really want to do) is something you really will only get to do during your undergraduate studies. Once you've graduated and entered into the work force it will be much harder to devote a significant chunk of time to "fun" pursuits like studying history, especially once you get into other life events like marriage, kids, etc.
If you grew up in a Chinese-speaking household and still have a decent comprehension of conversational Chinese then it will make it much easier for you to start speaking. I think the hard part is finding people who have the patience to speak with you and also to force yourself to do it, to get over the embarrassment and inconvenience.
Reading and writing is different though, but you didn't make it clear whether that is something you were interested in (it sounds like it would be a big deal if you could at last have a conversation with your Chinese speaking relatives).
posted by kenliu at 9:53 PM on May 5, 2010
If you grew up in a Chinese-speaking household and still have a decent comprehension of conversational Chinese then it will make it much easier for you to start speaking. I think the hard part is finding people who have the patience to speak with you and also to force yourself to do it, to get over the embarrassment and inconvenience.
Reading and writing is different though, but you didn't make it clear whether that is something you were interested in (it sounds like it would be a big deal if you could at last have a conversation with your Chinese speaking relatives).
posted by kenliu at 9:53 PM on May 5, 2010
...FWIW, it's my pet peeve when people think that a summer or two of Chinese immersion will somehow translate into real job opportunities in a business environment in China. It certainly wouldn't hurt to be able to know a little, but you would need to dedicate a huge amount of time to reach a level of fluency where it would be effective in a work environment. Doesn't sound like your goal anyway.
posted by kenliu at 10:02 PM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by kenliu at 10:02 PM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
You can be a complete history geek on your own time and can do it later in school if you want. Your retirement could be a doctorate in it.
Chinese though! That could translate into jobs and travel as well as a tie into your heritage. As a molecular biologist, knowledge of Chinese could make you the go to guy for some international work and expose you to some new ideas earlier than competitiors. Additional knowledge of some random historical event, not so much.
And I'm a history buff.
posted by codswallop at 12:40 AM on May 5, 2010