"Sign this and we'll tell you what it is later, mmmkay?"

April 8, 2010 9:40 AM

Asking for a friend: leaving an apartment in Toronto, sketchy landlord wants my friend to sign something. Friend doesn't want to.

I've got a buddy who has been in a Toronto apartment for over a year. He had good relations with his original landlord, but late last year the house was sold to someone unknown. My buddy's planning on leaving the apartment in the next month; sketchy landlord has indicated that he's going to ask him to sign something on moveout. Buddy is afraid that it will be something with which the landlord is going to stick him sometime later for money. When pressed, sketchy landlord claims not to know what the actual thing to be signed *is*, but that a realtor would call buddy and let him know.

Can my buddy safely/legally refuse to sign this thing? He's getting bad vibes and would rather not sign anything.

posted by the dief to Home & Garden (17 answers total)

Depends on what the thing is.
posted by ethnomethodologist at 9:42 AM on April 8, 2010

Response by poster: Oh, buddy says that he gave 60 days notice, in case that matters.
posted by the dief at 9:42 AM on April 8, 2010

Best answer: Your friend might want to check these guys out (The Federation of Metro Tennants' Associations - they have a hotline which the city links to.
posted by purlgurly at 9:45 AM on April 8, 2010 [1 favorite]

Why should you *have* to sign something to leave an apartment? So long as you fulfill the terms of the lease, you are under no obligation to enter into another agreement. Don't sign.
posted by teedee2000 at 9:46 AM on April 8, 2010 [3 favorites]

In general your friend shouldn't sign anything without reading it and understanding it. They shouldn't accept someone's hand-wavy explanation of what they are agreeing to, and if they don't understand it after reading it they should pay a lawyer to look at it.

Also, there is no reason to enter into any kind of new agreement or contract unless your friend is getting something out of it. Unless some sort of new agreement is needed to change the terms of the lease or something your friend shouldn't sign anything.
posted by burnmp3s at 9:52 AM on April 8, 2010

Nobody I've known (in Ontario) has ever had to sign anything upon move-out.

It might be a form describing the condition of the apartment upon move-out (to be compared to the condition upon move-in). If that were the case and if the results are identical to the conditions upon move-in, it might be prudent to sign it (as then the landlord can't as easily make up fake damages later). But you'd be under no obligation to sign it, either way (IANAL).
posted by astrochimp at 9:59 AM on April 8, 2010

Best answer: He needs to tell the landlord that he needs a copy of the doucument he is expected to sign at least two weeks in advance in order to even consider signing it. If the landlord blows him off again, then simply don't sign it. If he does get the copy of the document, there is probably a 99% chance he shouldn't sign it anyway. You don't need to sing things to leave apartments, generally, and it's hard to imagine what your friend would get out of it.

What's the landlord going to do? Kick him out? If your friend is really scared or hates confrontation, clean up and move out a few days early, mail the landlord the keys and provide no forwarding address.
posted by spaltavian at 9:59 AM on April 8, 2010 [1 favorite]

Don't sign anything. Take the thing the landlord wants you to sign and say you will think about it. Then don't sign it unless there is a good reason to.
posted by grouse at 9:59 AM on April 8, 2010

Best answer: He needs to tell the landlord that he needs a copy of the doucument he is expected to sign at least two weeks in advance....so that his lawyer can look at it. This can be a pretend lawyer - but sketchy landlord doesn't need to know that. He should take pictures of pretty much everything in the apartment when his stuff is moved out and he's cleaned it (or hired someone to clean it), and definitely do a walk-though (if this is common in Canada, or maybe even if it isn't, if the landlord is really sketchy) so the landlord can't claim damages for something that wasn't damaged by your friend.
posted by rtha at 10:04 AM on April 8, 2010 [8 favorites]

...definitely do a walk-though so the landlord can't claim damages for something that wasn't damaged by your friend.

And have the landlord sign THAT.
posted by neuron at 10:15 AM on April 8, 2010

This isn't automatically an attempt at fraud. In apartments I have lived in, I have signed an itemized list of features and appliances and checked off each one as part of moving out, to say that I left them in original condition. This is just extra documentation to protect both parties in the event of a dispute over a security deposit.
posted by slow graffiti at 10:53 AM on April 8, 2010

Best answer: The only time I've signed something on move-out was when I did a walkthrough with my landlord so that we basically agreed on what part of my deposit I wasn't getting back and we agreed on the state of the apartment [this is in the US]. Often what happens is that you don't get your deposit back on the spot, so it's in your best interests if you and the landlord agree to the condition of the apartment and what does/does not towards any dings on the security deposit refund. This was basically so both of us had a documented statement of what the place looked like when I handed the keys over. So, if this is what it is, it's not a new agreement, it's saying "okay I have to replace that one window share, so you're getting your full deposit back minus $25 for the windowshade" sort of thing. You sign a document so that you can't later say "the windowshare was fine" and she can't later say "the entire window was broken!"

If it is that, that is normal where I am from.
posted by jessamyn at 10:56 AM on April 8, 2010 [1 favorite]

It could be that he's turned in keys, that the security deposit might be later sing the new landlord doesn't know what the old one does about the condition of the apartment upon move in, really anything saying what he's done to finish moving out.

Still look it over and don't sign anything you don't understand. But don't instantly think that it's the new landlord being evil either.
posted by theichibun at 11:19 AM on April 8, 2010

It is most likely one of these forms, which indicate that both parties agree that the tenant is moving out on a specified date. I have signed the N9 "Tenant’s Notice to Terminate the Tenancy" when my landlord and I agreed to break my lease so I could move out before the lease was finished. These are Ontario forms, I was in Guelph at the time that I signed the N9.
posted by nprigoda at 11:28 AM on April 8, 2010

Oh, and I meant to say, I found out about these forms when I contacted the Landlord and Tenant Board about what I needed to do to terminate my lease, and they said people don't usually fill out these forms, but it's a good way to be sure that you have documentation that you moved out on a certain date so that the landlord can't come back at you with bills after that date.
posted by nprigoda at 11:30 AM on April 8, 2010

Just an aside about the suggestions about deposit paperwork: security deposits aren't allowed in Ontario. All the landlord can ask for is the first and last month's rent (and I think some negligible key deposit). Of course, that doesn't mean that landlords abide by that. Many request security deposits (just like many include 'no pets' in the lease, which is also generally void), so your friend might have paid one anyway. If there's paperwork about that, then I'd imagine it's the invention of the landlord and not any kind of official document, as it would've been an off-the-books payment in the first place.

If the paperwork has anything to do with damages, my instinct to not sign would therefore be strong enough to do as some have advised above: say you'll consult with a lawyer, and if the landlord persists, find a lawyer.
posted by Beardman at 1:43 PM on April 8, 2010

He can't decide whether to sign it before seeing it. He does not "have" to sign anything. It is a negotiation which depends upon the obligations of both parties in the current lease, and the laws regarding that, assuming he is actually planning to break the lease. If he is not planning to break the lease I see little benefit in signing anything, but then who knows what that document says.
posted by caddis at 7:11 PM on April 8, 2010