frequent flyer woes
April 5, 2010 3:23 PM Subscribe
Why were there no business class seats available for sale or for upgrade, when clearly those seats were empty on the flight?
On a certain airline, I have 2nd-tier elite flyer status which allows me confirmed upgrades to business-class, requested up to 3 days in advance. I fly the same international route at least once per month, and for the last year I have been upgraded every single time, without exception.
Last week I was told no upgrades were available. I checked online (Expedia, Kayak, the airline's own website, etc) and there were no biz class seats available at all on that particular flight. Okay...makes sense.
When I got to the check-in counter, I lied and said I already have a confirmed upgrade. Surprise #1: they upgraded me immediately, without batting an eyelid. Surprise #2: there were actually 5 empty (out of 12) biz-class seats, and the chief purser even let some annoying flychick flirt her way into biz class.
What gives? Why would the airline hold on to so many premium seats to the last minute? Wouldn't they want to sell them as soon as possible?
On a certain airline, I have 2nd-tier elite flyer status which allows me confirmed upgrades to business-class, requested up to 3 days in advance. I fly the same international route at least once per month, and for the last year I have been upgraded every single time, without exception.
Last week I was told no upgrades were available. I checked online (Expedia, Kayak, the airline's own website, etc) and there were no biz class seats available at all on that particular flight. Okay...makes sense.
When I got to the check-in counter, I lied and said I already have a confirmed upgrade. Surprise #1: they upgraded me immediately, without batting an eyelid. Surprise #2: there were actually 5 empty (out of 12) biz-class seats, and the chief purser even let some annoying flychick flirt her way into biz class.
What gives? Why would the airline hold on to so many premium seats to the last minute? Wouldn't they want to sell them as soon as possible?
Also worth mentioning that upgrades do not come out of the same inventory as paid seats. As an example, paid international business class on American is typically J or I inventory. Upgrades are C. I runs out before J (it's cheaper), and C is added and removed as Revenue Management sees fit. (Presumably there are calculations for this.)
So you really need to use something like ExpertFlyer to really know what's going on. (That service can also email you when C opens up, so you can call and get your upgrade immediately.)
Finally, the seat map is no indication of available inventory. Overbooking, people without seats, etc. It's much more complicated than you would think.
posted by jrockway at 3:33 PM on April 5, 2010
So you really need to use something like ExpertFlyer to really know what's going on. (That service can also email you when C opens up, so you can call and get your upgrade immediately.)
Finally, the seat map is no indication of available inventory. Overbooking, people without seats, etc. It's much more complicated than you would think.
posted by jrockway at 3:33 PM on April 5, 2010
Response by poster: I don't really believe your story, FWIW
Interesting...why not? Every bit of it is true.
posted by randomstriker at 3:44 PM on April 5, 2010
Interesting...why not? Every bit of it is true.
posted by randomstriker at 3:44 PM on April 5, 2010
Response by poster: Oh and if my post wasn't clear, neither upgrades NOR paid biz-class seats were available. At least not online...I didn't bother calling in. Why not sell the seats if they were available?
posted by randomstriker at 3:48 PM on April 5, 2010
posted by randomstriker at 3:48 PM on April 5, 2010
Response by poster: Mexicana 983 (YVR-MEX), April 1st.
posted by randomstriker at 3:48 PM on April 5, 2010
posted by randomstriker at 3:48 PM on April 5, 2010
Really, all that is needed for this to happen is for their cabin to be fully booked, and then for at least one person to change their reservation in advance, meaning there was now at least one confirmed seat available. The other four seats might be held by people who were flying in from elsewhere and missed their flight. Or they could have all canceled.
If another passenger was allowed in, did she get fed the business class meals? That would mean they had catered for more than six.
posted by grouse at 3:55 PM on April 5, 2010
If another passenger was allowed in, did she get fed the business class meals? That would mean they had catered for more than six.
posted by grouse at 3:55 PM on April 5, 2010
Times I've tried to do paid or status upgrades and been denied, only to see a couple empty seats in front, usually the gate attendant's reasoning was along the lines of "There are X passengers with a frequent flier status X steps above yours, so if they show up, they'll get them ahead of you, even if you are offering to pay for it."
But five empty seats seems like a lot. How big was the plane?
posted by MonsieurBon at 3:55 PM on April 5, 2010
But five empty seats seems like a lot. How big was the plane?
posted by MonsieurBon at 3:55 PM on April 5, 2010
Because most airlines will sell anyone that wants a J ticket a J ticket. If they overbook, they can move people up to F. I don't believe your story because usually lying to agents does not get you anywhere, and usually people aren't allowed to move between cabins. (This is an FAA rule violation with penalties for the flight attendant and airline.)
J is very expensive, however; on the order of $6000 to Europe or Asia from the US. I is much cheaper, sometimes sub-$1000. (This is with my experience flying AA; YMMV on other airlines.) So maybe the site you were using assumed you wouldn't want full-fare, and there was no discount fare left.
grouse asks a great question, though. With the airline, flight number, and date, records can be checked and it can be determined exactly what happened.
posted by jrockway at 3:58 PM on April 5, 2010
J is very expensive, however; on the order of $6000 to Europe or Asia from the US. I is much cheaper, sometimes sub-$1000. (This is with my experience flying AA; YMMV on other airlines.) So maybe the site you were using assumed you wouldn't want full-fare, and there was no discount fare left.
grouse asks a great question, though. With the airline, flight number, and date, records can be checked and it can be determined exactly what happened.
posted by jrockway at 3:58 PM on April 5, 2010
Wow, it took me too long to type that :)
I have never flown on MEX, so maybe things are just different there.
posted by jrockway at 4:00 PM on April 5, 2010
I have never flown on MEX, so maybe things are just different there.
posted by jrockway at 4:00 PM on April 5, 2010
I don't think lying to the agent would have done anything. If he got upgraded, it was because of some other change.
This is an FAA rule violation with penalties for the flight attendant and airline.
What regulation does this violate?
posted by grouse at 4:03 PM on April 5, 2010
This is an FAA rule violation with penalties for the flight attendant and airline.
What regulation does this violate?
posted by grouse at 4:03 PM on April 5, 2010
Any idea if the flight (A) continued to another destination (C) after your stop (B)? I know its an international route, so probably not, but it's worth mentioning that sometimes the airline will avoid selling seats from leg A > C if the same seat is needed for leg B > C. Or they'll hold the seats if leg B>C is frequently overbooked, or if B > C is a commuter leg that gets a lot of overflow traffic from missed/delayed flights. In these cases, the first leg may tend to have empty seats.
posted by prinado at 4:03 PM on April 5, 2010
posted by prinado at 4:03 PM on April 5, 2010
Response by poster: If another passenger was allowed in, did she get fed the business class meals?
Don't know...this was a red-eye flight and I slept. However I have seen "unofficial upgrades" happen frequently on this particular route for passengers fitting a certain profile (i.e. young women wearing tight clothing), and I did notice that they never received a biz meal.
But five empty seats seems like a lot. How big was the plane?
Airbus A319: 12 seats in biz, 100+ in coach.
I don't believe your story because usually lying to agents does not get you anywhere.
I'm asking this question to figure out what happened for myself, not to convince you of anything. If you don't believe me...oh well.
So maybe the site you were using assumed you wouldn't want full-fare
I checked the airline's own site. Usually all fare classes are listed, if available.
With the airline, flight number, and date, records can be checked and it can be determined exactly what happened.
And how do you do that?
posted by randomstriker at 4:09 PM on April 5, 2010
Don't know...this was a red-eye flight and I slept. However I have seen "unofficial upgrades" happen frequently on this particular route for passengers fitting a certain profile (i.e. young women wearing tight clothing), and I did notice that they never received a biz meal.
But five empty seats seems like a lot. How big was the plane?
Airbus A319: 12 seats in biz, 100+ in coach.
I don't believe your story because usually lying to agents does not get you anywhere.
I'm asking this question to figure out what happened for myself, not to convince you of anything. If you don't believe me...oh well.
So maybe the site you were using assumed you wouldn't want full-fare
I checked the airline's own site. Usually all fare classes are listed, if available.
With the airline, flight number, and date, records can be checked and it can be determined exactly what happened.
And how do you do that?
posted by randomstriker at 4:09 PM on April 5, 2010
Response by poster: Any idea if the flight (A) continued to another destination (C) after your stop (B)?
No. Direct flight. The plane comes from MEX, comes to YVR, turns around and goes back to MEX. At times it gets severely delayed, and the official explanation we receive is that it got held up leaving MEX.
posted by randomstriker at 4:12 PM on April 5, 2010
No. Direct flight. The plane comes from MEX, comes to YVR, turns around and goes back to MEX. At times it gets severely delayed, and the official explanation we receive is that it got held up leaving MEX.
posted by randomstriker at 4:12 PM on April 5, 2010
Response by poster: The other four seats might be held by people who were flying in from elsewhere and missed their flight.
Oh and I think this is unlikely, because I checked in 3.5 hours early, hoping to snag an upgrade (which I did!)
posted by randomstriker at 4:21 PM on April 5, 2010
Oh and I think this is unlikely, because I checked in 3.5 hours early, hoping to snag an upgrade (which I did!)
posted by randomstriker at 4:21 PM on April 5, 2010
Often folks who are paying for business class (or rather, whose employers are springing for business class) have last minute schedule changes. A meeting gets canceled, or a stay gets extended. It's entirely possible that when you first looked online, all those seats had been spoken for, and then some of those people changed their plans in between the time you first looked online and the time you checked in.
posted by ambrosia at 5:22 PM on April 5, 2010
posted by ambrosia at 5:22 PM on April 5, 2010
My experience is that those are always the last seats sold. If someone needs to buy a walk up ticket, then having only first/business class available forces someone to pay the higher fare. Plus, comparatively few people are buying business class seats. They can give away the seat and forgo the first class surcharge or they can get someone to pay it. Having someone pay for it is preferred.
I usually fly the two airlines where I'm at or near the top of the elite level food chain. I get to fly upfront all the time and people do charm their way into those seats. Not as frequently as 5 or 6 years ago (when I pretty much considered it a sport!), but it definitely happens. However, you need to do it before you get on the plane. Generally, once you've boarded if someone moves forward it's the next person on the upgrade list.
posted by 26.2 at 5:23 PM on April 5, 2010
I usually fly the two airlines where I'm at or near the top of the elite level food chain. I get to fly upfront all the time and people do charm their way into those seats. Not as frequently as 5 or 6 years ago (when I pretty much considered it a sport!), but it definitely happens. However, you need to do it before you get on the plane. Generally, once you've boarded if someone moves forward it's the next person on the upgrade list.
posted by 26.2 at 5:23 PM on April 5, 2010
This can happen easily; in fact, I have seen it happen before. Purchased business class tickets are fully refundable, so seats can be taken in and out of inventory with no trouble. Five seats isn't a hard number to reach: its one wealthy family, or one CEO and four staff members whose trip was canceled.
posted by MattD at 5:23 PM on April 5, 2010
posted by MattD at 5:23 PM on April 5, 2010
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Many airlines are happy to let the seats go out empty. If people are upgraded for free too often, they stop paying for the premium classes, and the airline loses money. The airline has presumably spent more time thinking about this than you have.
posted by jrockway at 3:31 PM on April 5, 2010