Help me study critical race theory!
March 11, 2010 12:06 PM Subscribe
I am interested in studying Critical Race Theory. Where should I go to law school?
I know several of the top law schools have classes or programs in this, but I'm wondering if any one school stands out in this field. If you studied critical race theory at all, where did you attend/what was your experience? Thanks!
I know several of the top law schools have classes or programs in this, but I'm wondering if any one school stands out in this field. If you studied critical race theory at all, where did you attend/what was your experience? Thanks!
If what you want to do is study Critical Race Theory, you should not go to law school. You should only go to law school if you want to become a lawyer and practice law. Otherwise, you're spending a quarter of a million dollars for a certification that is worthless to you.
posted by decathecting at 12:23 PM on March 11, 2010 [7 favorites]
posted by decathecting at 12:23 PM on March 11, 2010 [7 favorites]
A law school that will let you go for free (in which case you will only be wasting three years, instead of three years and $150,000).* Or Yale.
*Read scholarship offers carefully to make sure that they're not dependent on maintaining a certain GPA.
If you can't fulfill either of these criteria, don't go to law school.
posted by ewiar at 12:32 PM on March 11, 2010 [1 favorite]
*Read scholarship offers carefully to make sure that they're not dependent on maintaining a certain GPA.
If you can't fulfill either of these criteria, don't go to law school.
posted by ewiar at 12:32 PM on March 11, 2010 [1 favorite]
I know lots of Yale Law School grads who don't want to be lawyers but who wanted study stuff like critical race theory, job prospects be damned. So, go to Yale. Otherwise, yeah, I don't see why you'd want to go to law school.
posted by dfriedman at 12:33 PM on March 11, 2010
posted by dfriedman at 12:33 PM on March 11, 2010
Response by poster: To be clear, there are other reasons why I want to go to law school, and I am taking other factors into account (like geography, etc.) in my decision. What I am interested in hearing here, though, is which law school has the best program for critical race theory.
posted by lunit at 12:34 PM on March 11, 2010
posted by lunit at 12:34 PM on March 11, 2010
FYI, most (maybe even all, but attending law school made me shy away from absolutes) law schools will only allow you to study something other than Civil Procedure, Contract Law, Tort Law, Criminal Law, Property Law, Constitutional Law, and Legal Writing after you've finished your first year, at which point you'll already be severely sleep deprived, tired of being asked to describe the facts of cases about who owed whom money for that delivery of coal that went awry, and somewhere in the neighborhood of $75K in debt.
Law school is where you want to go when you want to study law. Critical race theory seems more American/Cultural Studies-ish.
posted by sallybrown at 12:35 PM on March 11, 2010 [1 favorite]
Law school is where you want to go when you want to study law. Critical race theory seems more American/Cultural Studies-ish.
posted by sallybrown at 12:35 PM on March 11, 2010 [1 favorite]
I guess it depends where you can get in, and what the relative cost is, but you should consider UCLA.
posted by cushie at 12:37 PM on March 11, 2010
posted by cushie at 12:37 PM on March 11, 2010
Response by poster: I am also aware that I would not be able to study it until second or third year. Other factors - like law journals, student groups, general atmosphere, etc - are also important, though.
Again, assume that I want to go to law school, but am also interested in critical race theory. Think of it extracurricularly, if you will.
posted by lunit at 12:38 PM on March 11, 2010
Again, assume that I want to go to law school, but am also interested in critical race theory. Think of it extracurricularly, if you will.
posted by lunit at 12:38 PM on March 11, 2010
Well, I guess the answer to your question is Yale, but I don't think it's a very useful question, as you've posed it.
posted by craven_morhead at 12:40 PM on March 11, 2010
posted by craven_morhead at 12:40 PM on March 11, 2010
Best answer: lunit: Please don't take this the wrong way. I mean well. But if you let the relative strength of critical race theory programs play any significant role in your law school decision (unless you go somewhere for free), you are setting yourself up for misery. The legal hiring market is way too terrible to take something so irrelevant into account in making such an expensive decision.
posted by ewiar at 12:41 PM on March 11, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by ewiar at 12:41 PM on March 11, 2010 [2 favorites]
Ah, ok. Cross UChicago off your list, unless you change your mind and want to focus on economic theory.
posted by sallybrown at 12:42 PM on March 11, 2010
posted by sallybrown at 12:42 PM on March 11, 2010
You should not go to law school unless you are independently wealthy or have a full scholarship. There are no jobs. What is your end game? You want to be a law professor teaching CRT? Then you need to go to one of the following schools and be in the Top 10 students in your class: Harvard, Yale, Stanford, UVA, Texas, NYU or Columbia. Then you need to publish 3-5 original articles in a prestigious journal, so cozy up to one of your windbag professors and start writing. Good luck with all that, unless you happen to be a genius legal mind. More likely you will graduate with 150k in debt and find yourself in document review hell like this guy.
Save yourself the trouble and the loan payments. Order some books off Amazon or get a masters so Barnes & Noble or Starbucks will still read your resume.
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:46 PM on March 11, 2010 [2 favorites]
Save yourself the trouble and the loan payments. Order some books off Amazon or get a masters so Barnes & Noble or Starbucks will still read your resume.
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:46 PM on March 11, 2010 [2 favorites]
If what you want to do is study Critical Race Theory, you should not go to law school. You should only go to law school if you want to become a lawyer and practice law. Otherwise, you're spending a quarter of a million dollars for a certification that is worthless to you.
Uh, this 100X over. What school is best at "critical race theory?" Law school isn't like that. Take it from the people who have been there and seen many people who go to law school for this sort of thing. It isn't what you think it is.
posted by Ironmouth at 12:51 PM on March 11, 2010 [5 favorites]
Uh, this 100X over. What school is best at "critical race theory?" Law school isn't like that. Take it from the people who have been there and seen many people who go to law school for this sort of thing. It isn't what you think it is.
posted by Ironmouth at 12:51 PM on March 11, 2010 [5 favorites]
I am also aware that I would not be able to study it until second or third year. Other factors - like law journals, student groups, general atmosphere, etc - are also important, though.
Again, assume that I want to go to law school, but am also interested in critical race theory. Think of it extracurricularly, if you will.
Let me put it another way. Law Schools likely teach Critical Race Theory really, really poorly. Really poorly.
posted by Ironmouth at 12:53 PM on March 11, 2010 [2 favorites]
Again, assume that I want to go to law school, but am also interested in critical race theory. Think of it extracurricularly, if you will.
Let me put it another way. Law Schools likely teach Critical Race Theory really, really poorly. Really poorly.
posted by Ironmouth at 12:53 PM on March 11, 2010 [2 favorites]
I know Yale has a (well-deserved) reputation for being all "la la we don't study any real law here," but I don't think that the curriculum there is actually all that strong on this particular topic. Partly this may be due to the smaller faculty size and somewhat more limited course offerings. I always had the sense that Harvard was more involved in the birth of CLS and CRT and is still stronger -- which again may be partly due to just having a bigger faculty. So my answer would be: Harvard.
Anyway, this is all completely separate from whether your question may be based on a fundamental misconception of what law school is usually all about, as others have said.
posted by chinston at 1:02 PM on March 11, 2010 [2 favorites]
Anyway, this is all completely separate from whether your question may be based on a fundamental misconception of what law school is usually all about, as others have said.
posted by chinston at 1:02 PM on March 11, 2010 [2 favorites]
Even though this is just going to start sounding like an echo chamber after a while, I want to confirm what everyone is saying.
Professional education is a commodity which is bought and sold and advertised just like all other commodities. One way it is advertised is through things like "Critical Race Theory" programs, or a "Strong Public Interest" focus. This is not what law school is actually for, and chasing something like this will likely land you in a world of hurt given the harsh economic realities of today's profession.
posted by greekphilosophy at 1:03 PM on March 11, 2010 [1 favorite]
Professional education is a commodity which is bought and sold and advertised just like all other commodities. One way it is advertised is through things like "Critical Race Theory" programs, or a "Strong Public Interest" focus. This is not what law school is actually for, and chasing something like this will likely land you in a world of hurt given the harsh economic realities of today's profession.
posted by greekphilosophy at 1:03 PM on March 11, 2010 [1 favorite]
Well, Derrick Bell is at NYU, but I don't think they otherwise have much of a CRT program or faculty. And he only teaches Con Law (a wildly popular Con Law class influenced by CRT that is tons of work and that many interested people do not get into).
Like chinston, I think Harvard is a bit known for this. On the other hand, Harvard is the kind of place where someone who is deeply into CRT is probably going to be very unhappy.
posted by Mavri at 1:13 PM on March 11, 2010
Like chinston, I think Harvard is a bit known for this. On the other hand, Harvard is the kind of place where someone who is deeply into CRT is probably going to be very unhappy.
posted by Mavri at 1:13 PM on March 11, 2010
To be clear, there are other reasons why I want to go to law school, and I am taking other factors into account (like geography, etc.) in my decision. What I am interested in hearing here, though, is which law school has the best program for critical race theory.
That first sentence makes it sound like you have a solid, well-reasoned plan for going to law school -- but it's still not clear how critical race theory is supposed to fit into this. What good does it do for a lawyer to have a super-enlightened theory of race? I admire you for caring about these issues and I'm sure that studying them would help improve yourself as a person overall, but that's the kind of thing that's of more concern to an undergrad than someone girding for a legal career. Why not just read/talk/think deeply about race on your own time?
I went to Cornell Law School, which doesn't have any kind of "critical race theory" focus as far as I know, but we had illuminating discussions about race in several classes (including the first-year classes of constitutional law and civil procedure), and I know it was a particular interest of some of my profs. Do I recommend going to Cornell Law School and expecting a critical race theory program? Absolutely not. But if, for example, you could get in there and also a lower-ranked school with a program more in line with your preferred racial perspective/theory, I still wouldn't recommend making your decision based on which school has the best CRT focus. I would say: go to Cornell; hope for whatever good discussions on race might happen to come up; make a point to talk after class with some profs who seem particularly interested in the topic; maybe try to find a seminar that would let you come up with a paper along these lines; join the Journal for Law and Public Policy in your second year (it's easy to join, not at all like Law Review) and write a note on a racial theme. I know that what I'm describing is nowhere close to a full-fledged "critical legal theory program," but I'm inclined to agree with the other comments about that.
I know nothing about Harvard and Yale's programs as to your question, but I'd just like to point out the obvious: in the event that you have an opportunity to go to Harvard or Yale, you won't need any justification about them having a race studies program. If you get into one of those two schools, your decision will be made for you (unless there's an overriding financial reason to go to a different school, in which case the details of Harvard/Yale's curricula would be negligible factors).
posted by Jaltcoh at 1:25 PM on March 11, 2010
That first sentence makes it sound like you have a solid, well-reasoned plan for going to law school -- but it's still not clear how critical race theory is supposed to fit into this. What good does it do for a lawyer to have a super-enlightened theory of race? I admire you for caring about these issues and I'm sure that studying them would help improve yourself as a person overall, but that's the kind of thing that's of more concern to an undergrad than someone girding for a legal career. Why not just read/talk/think deeply about race on your own time?
I went to Cornell Law School, which doesn't have any kind of "critical race theory" focus as far as I know, but we had illuminating discussions about race in several classes (including the first-year classes of constitutional law and civil procedure), and I know it was a particular interest of some of my profs. Do I recommend going to Cornell Law School and expecting a critical race theory program? Absolutely not. But if, for example, you could get in there and also a lower-ranked school with a program more in line with your preferred racial perspective/theory, I still wouldn't recommend making your decision based on which school has the best CRT focus. I would say: go to Cornell; hope for whatever good discussions on race might happen to come up; make a point to talk after class with some profs who seem particularly interested in the topic; maybe try to find a seminar that would let you come up with a paper along these lines; join the Journal for Law and Public Policy in your second year (it's easy to join, not at all like Law Review) and write a note on a racial theme. I know that what I'm describing is nowhere close to a full-fledged "critical legal theory program," but I'm inclined to agree with the other comments about that.
I know nothing about Harvard and Yale's programs as to your question, but I'd just like to point out the obvious: in the event that you have an opportunity to go to Harvard or Yale, you won't need any justification about them having a race studies program. If you get into one of those two schools, your decision will be made for you (unless there's an overriding financial reason to go to a different school, in which case the details of Harvard/Yale's curricula would be negligible factors).
posted by Jaltcoh at 1:25 PM on March 11, 2010
Best answer: UCLA Law has a certificate in CRT and the only program in CRT with a core group of professors who founded the movement. You can also do public interest specialty there, and there's the Charles Williams center of Sexual Orientation and the Law that attracts lots of good scholars who study similar issues of civil rights, intersectionality, etc. Berkeley has a critical mass of CRT professors (although Liu will leave for the 9th Cir if confirmed). Otherwise, NYU and maybe Georgetown for Chuck Lawrence and Mitu Gulati.
posted by dhn at 1:28 PM on March 11, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by dhn at 1:28 PM on March 11, 2010 [1 favorite]
Mavri: On the other hand, Harvard is the kind of place where someone who is deeply into CRT is probably going to be very unhappy.
Common misconception, not entirely accurate. Harvard (at least the law school) has become a rather friendly place to go. Beyond the hell that is attendant on law school generally, that is. The student population is reasonably well rounded, and many different types---including folks interested in CRT---can be quite happy there (again, modulo the general law school hell). And Harvard does have very strong faculty in CLS/CRT, as far as law schools go. The big problem with Harvard is that it's expensive. Cambridge is expensive, particularly for housing, and there is very little in the way of grant aid.*
*Unless your last name falls into a fairly small list, including Thayer. There are a few highly specialized grants available based on last name. My name was not on that list.
posted by dilettanti at 1:44 PM on March 11, 2010
Common misconception, not entirely accurate. Harvard (at least the law school) has become a rather friendly place to go. Beyond the hell that is attendant on law school generally, that is. The student population is reasonably well rounded, and many different types---including folks interested in CRT---can be quite happy there (again, modulo the general law school hell). And Harvard does have very strong faculty in CLS/CRT, as far as law schools go. The big problem with Harvard is that it's expensive. Cambridge is expensive, particularly for housing, and there is very little in the way of grant aid.*
*Unless your last name falls into a fairly small list, including Thayer. There are a few highly specialized grants available based on last name. My name was not on that list.
posted by dilettanti at 1:44 PM on March 11, 2010
This is a fascinating study area. The leading theorists, like Bell, Deldado, Matsuda, Williams etc. are spread all over the country. It is great to see UCLA with a certificate program. That is also a well respected school from which to launch a legal career. You probably also want to read some of the works in the Critical Legal Studies movement as also. At the very least read some of Duncan Kennedy and Roberto Unger's stuff.
posted by caddis at 1:45 PM on March 11, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by caddis at 1:45 PM on March 11, 2010 [1 favorite]
My law school had a top crt scholar on faculty, but she was never actually there. I also understand that crt is sorta dead now. So, I think your best approach would be to go to the best law school you can get into, then study crt on your own or with the most congenial public interest prof there. There are going to be profs interested in race wherever you go.
posted by yarly at 2:32 PM on March 11, 2010
posted by yarly at 2:32 PM on March 11, 2010
I have friends that have spent a lot of time studying CRT in MSW programs, and I know of a few joint degree programs, including UCLA, that will allow you to get an MSW and JD at the same time.
posted by parkerposey at 3:43 PM on March 11, 2010
posted by parkerposey at 3:43 PM on March 11, 2010
(Sorry for mistyping your name Richard Delgado. I am such a crappy typist and an even worse proof reader. We'll just have to forget the other mistake in that post as it wasn't as critical.)
posted by caddis at 7:53 PM on March 11, 2010
posted by caddis at 7:53 PM on March 11, 2010
I was very happy with the CRT classes I took at Howard, and they presented an interesting perspective, kind of like a weird New Age CRT. A lot of the instructors at Howard have a CRT philosophy even when the classes they are teaching something else (like con law). Yes, its third tier, but they are also more generous with the financial aid and I was entirely satisfied with the education available there. Any law school is going to give you the tools necessary to educate yourself, its up to you whether you use those tools.
And don't buy into the "you may only go to law school if you want to be a lawyer" stuff. People that say that don't know how to think outside the box. Just don't spend a ton of money if its more just because you feel like it.
posted by letahl at 8:55 AM on March 17, 2010
And don't buy into the "you may only go to law school if you want to be a lawyer" stuff. People that say that don't know how to think outside the box. Just don't spend a ton of money if its more just because you feel like it.
posted by letahl at 8:55 AM on March 17, 2010
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by craven_morhead at 12:17 PM on March 11, 2010