Am I lawyer material?
March 9, 2010 6:13 PM Subscribe
Having noticed the profusion of law-related questions and "IANYL" versus "IANAL" answers... I'm considering law school. I want to be sure I'm making the right choice.
If I do this, it will be because I do want to be an attorney.
However, I'm not sure how to be positive I can be successful as an attorney. I had worked out some lists of factors that seemed to be for/against the whole idea...
For:
I read a lot of law-related nonfiction, although I'm not a huge fan of law-related fiction as it seems to too often involve car chases, etc.
I frequently look up cases when they're mentioned in books or news.
I very much enjoyed my undergrad business law classes, though I got B's in them because I wasn't studying. (Bad me, I know.)
I find contracts interesting. And estate documents.
I actually read the terms for websites I sign up for.
Well, I read cereal boxes when I don't have anything else to read.
I enjoy rhetoric.
I communicate well verbally.
I like discussions of things in which there are gray areas.
I have done logic puzzles for fun since grade school.
As far as law school itself goes: My undergrad GPA was very high (3.9), as was the LSAT practice test I took (172). I'm also an URM (Mexican-American).
Against:
I have a spotty employment history. My last real boss (at a job in a field I discovered I hated) would never write me a recommendation letter; I quit in anticipation of being fired for performance issues at some point in the following three months. I have several college instructors who loved me who I'm still in contact with, but I graduated in '06.
I'm 'moderately' (i.e., not-quite-cripplingly) sensory defensive and while I'm dealing with it much better than I was while I was working that job, I still can't regularly wear makeup or high-heeled shoes, for example. And to be honest... I'm just not very attractive period.
My college background was the sort of state school that basically admits everyone who applies.
Also, my father hates lawyers and has already threatened to disown me if I do this, and my mother thinks I need to "get real" and take a clerical job. This would be why I'm only now, at 30, seriously considering this, as I realize that my parents' plan for my life kinda, um, sucks.
I'm not sure where that all leaves me. I'm not from the social background where I know any attorneys well enough to talk to them about it. I think I've come to the conclusion that I would do well in law school and love the work itself, but I'm not sure how my appearance issues and class background would hinder my ability to find/keep a job in a professional workplace. Money/hours aren't an issue; I just want a job that actually challenges me for the first time ever.
Good idea? Bad idea? Any other advice?
As a note, I am seeking treatment options for the sensory defensiveness at this point, but I have no way of knowing how much improvement I can expect.
If I do this, it will be because I do want to be an attorney.
However, I'm not sure how to be positive I can be successful as an attorney. I had worked out some lists of factors that seemed to be for/against the whole idea...
For:
I read a lot of law-related nonfiction, although I'm not a huge fan of law-related fiction as it seems to too often involve car chases, etc.
I frequently look up cases when they're mentioned in books or news.
I very much enjoyed my undergrad business law classes, though I got B's in them because I wasn't studying. (Bad me, I know.)
I find contracts interesting. And estate documents.
I actually read the terms for websites I sign up for.
Well, I read cereal boxes when I don't have anything else to read.
I enjoy rhetoric.
I communicate well verbally.
I like discussions of things in which there are gray areas.
I have done logic puzzles for fun since grade school.
As far as law school itself goes: My undergrad GPA was very high (3.9), as was the LSAT practice test I took (172). I'm also an URM (Mexican-American).
Against:
I have a spotty employment history. My last real boss (at a job in a field I discovered I hated) would never write me a recommendation letter; I quit in anticipation of being fired for performance issues at some point in the following three months. I have several college instructors who loved me who I'm still in contact with, but I graduated in '06.
I'm 'moderately' (i.e., not-quite-cripplingly) sensory defensive and while I'm dealing with it much better than I was while I was working that job, I still can't regularly wear makeup or high-heeled shoes, for example. And to be honest... I'm just not very attractive period.
My college background was the sort of state school that basically admits everyone who applies.
Also, my father hates lawyers and has already threatened to disown me if I do this, and my mother thinks I need to "get real" and take a clerical job. This would be why I'm only now, at 30, seriously considering this, as I realize that my parents' plan for my life kinda, um, sucks.
I'm not sure where that all leaves me. I'm not from the social background where I know any attorneys well enough to talk to them about it. I think I've come to the conclusion that I would do well in law school and love the work itself, but I'm not sure how my appearance issues and class background would hinder my ability to find/keep a job in a professional workplace. Money/hours aren't an issue; I just want a job that actually challenges me for the first time ever.
Good idea? Bad idea? Any other advice?
As a note, I am seeking treatment options for the sensory defensiveness at this point, but I have no way of knowing how much improvement I can expect.
Call me naive, but what does being attractive have to do with being a competent lawyer?
posted by Lobster Garden at 6:17 PM on March 9, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Lobster Garden at 6:17 PM on March 9, 2010 [1 favorite]
Best answer: If you've looked into how expensive it is, and you understand how bad the job market is (and not just in the "life is tough" or "the recession is tough" sense, but you've seriously looked at the numbers -- there are articles and blog posts about this online, and they're very depressing) ... and you still think it's worth it ... then go for it. Your list of "pros" is strong, and your list of "cons" is mostly if not entirely superficial. (As for your dad's objections, I wouldn't take them seriously -- he'll come around if you prove you can actually do it.)
I've been to law school and have had several law jobs and watched a lot of lawyers in action. There is definitely not a rule that you have to be physically attractive in order to be successful in the legal profession.
posted by Jaltcoh at 6:25 PM on March 9, 2010 [2 favorites]
I've been to law school and have had several law jobs and watched a lot of lawyers in action. There is definitely not a rule that you have to be physically attractive in order to be successful in the legal profession.
posted by Jaltcoh at 6:25 PM on March 9, 2010 [2 favorites]
I heard (probably from this site) that law jobs are hard to come by. That's just what I heard from people advising against law school for those who failed at getting academic jobs after getting a philosophy degree. And if it's anything like philosophy, you've got to get into the very top-tier schools just for a chance to get those elusive jobs.
Anyway, that being said, here's something:
Law School Reports
Law School Rankings
posted by lhude sing cuccu at 6:26 PM on March 9, 2010
Anyway, that being said, here's something:
Law School Reports
Law School Rankings
posted by lhude sing cuccu at 6:26 PM on March 9, 2010
Also, I wouldn't worry much about your college ranking if you have 3.9 + anywhere close to 172 + URM.
posted by Jaltcoh at 6:27 PM on March 9, 2010 [3 favorites]
posted by Jaltcoh at 6:27 PM on March 9, 2010 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: @mhoye: Isn't that mostly why people become engineers? At least, the only two engineering majors I knew said they wanted to be engineers, not that they wanted to build whatsits. Everybody has to do something with their lives to pay bills. I just want daily work that involves tasks which hold my interest and which I am able to do competently, which pays a basic living wage.
@Lobster Garden: I didn't necessarily want to put it exactly this badly, but I have a skin condition that looks kind of... awful, that again I can't cover up at present because I can't wear makeup. I'm not *sure* that this would provide a barrier to my finding employment in a professional setting, but I worry that it would, because you don't exactly see a lot of professionals who look less than totally put-together. I have no idea if this is really the case or not.
posted by gracedissolved at 6:28 PM on March 9, 2010
@Lobster Garden: I didn't necessarily want to put it exactly this badly, but I have a skin condition that looks kind of... awful, that again I can't cover up at present because I can't wear makeup. I'm not *sure* that this would provide a barrier to my finding employment in a professional setting, but I worry that it would, because you don't exactly see a lot of professionals who look less than totally put-together. I have no idea if this is really the case or not.
posted by gracedissolved at 6:28 PM on March 9, 2010
Best answer: I didn't see anything on your FOR list that you actually want to accomplish with that experience and those credentials.
Yes, I that's a good indication that the OP has a better than average chance of being happy and successful as an attorney.
In my previous job I spent a lot of time interviewing job candidates for non-legal environmental advocacy work. We got stacks and stacks of resumes from newly-minted lawyers who had attended law school because they "wanted to accomplish something" and then realized that their law degree was not at all helpful in attaining that goal. They realized that "practicing environmental law" usually meant helping companies comply with arcane environment regulations, or worse, evade them.
If you want to accomplish something meaningful in a specific field, enter that field directly and don't waste your time and money on a law degree. Save the environment, help the homeless, fight for justice, create art, build video games. There are a great many good and interesting things you can accomplish that don't involve law.
On the other hand, if you enjoy the hirsute details of contracts, if you actually read and comprehend end-user license agreements (jesus!), if you like puzzles and games that require attention to complex and subtle detail, then by all means become a lawyer. You have a chance of doing well at it and enjoying it. I hope you find a way to accomplish some good with it, but ultimately that is not a fundamental proposition to the study or practice of law.
posted by alms at 6:30 PM on March 9, 2010 [5 favorites]
Yes, I that's a good indication that the OP has a better than average chance of being happy and successful as an attorney.
In my previous job I spent a lot of time interviewing job candidates for non-legal environmental advocacy work. We got stacks and stacks of resumes from newly-minted lawyers who had attended law school because they "wanted to accomplish something" and then realized that their law degree was not at all helpful in attaining that goal. They realized that "practicing environmental law" usually meant helping companies comply with arcane environment regulations, or worse, evade them.
If you want to accomplish something meaningful in a specific field, enter that field directly and don't waste your time and money on a law degree. Save the environment, help the homeless, fight for justice, create art, build video games. There are a great many good and interesting things you can accomplish that don't involve law.
On the other hand, if you enjoy the hirsute details of contracts, if you actually read and comprehend end-user license agreements (jesus!), if you like puzzles and games that require attention to complex and subtle detail, then by all means become a lawyer. You have a chance of doing well at it and enjoying it. I hope you find a way to accomplish some good with it, but ultimately that is not a fundamental proposition to the study or practice of law.
posted by alms at 6:30 PM on March 9, 2010 [5 favorites]
@ OP @ mhoye: I agree with you; don't worry about wanting to "help disadvantaged people" or something like that; you reasons sound good enough to me. Even better than I might come up with for what I want to do.
posted by lhude sing cuccu at 6:31 PM on March 9, 2010
posted by lhude sing cuccu at 6:31 PM on March 9, 2010
The only thing you have mentioned that stands out to me as possibly being a problem is having performance issues that led to a spotty employment history. But you don't say what those performance issues were, so it's not really possible to guess whether they'd hurt you in law school or in succeeding as a lawyers.
Your "appearance issues" are not going to make or break you in law school. (I'm assuming by appearance issues you mean just that you don't wear any designer clothes or high heels, not that you mean you don't shower or dress appropriately). I spent this entire day in a law school and I saw about 10 people wearing high heels (out of several hundred). And I can't imagine any situation where, as a lawyer, the school where you got your bachelor's would matter to anyone.
I think something that would help you make this decision would be, as mhoye says, to start thinking about what you'd want to do as a lawyer. And then, work for a lawyer who practices in that area for a bit to see how the reality compares to what you're thinking now (it might be better).
posted by Ashley801 at 6:32 PM on March 9, 2010
Your "appearance issues" are not going to make or break you in law school. (I'm assuming by appearance issues you mean just that you don't wear any designer clothes or high heels, not that you mean you don't shower or dress appropriately). I spent this entire day in a law school and I saw about 10 people wearing high heels (out of several hundred). And I can't imagine any situation where, as a lawyer, the school where you got your bachelor's would matter to anyone.
I think something that would help you make this decision would be, as mhoye says, to start thinking about what you'd want to do as a lawyer. And then, work for a lawyer who practices in that area for a bit to see how the reality compares to what you're thinking now (it might be better).
posted by Ashley801 at 6:32 PM on March 9, 2010
Best answer: mhoye is right -- these are all good reasons for/against going to law school. But they bear only some relation to being a lawyer. Yes, you will read a lot of cases and contracts and other legalese; if you enjoy this, you are ahead of the pack. Yes, you will need good verbal communications skills. Yes, you will have to puzzle out gray areas of law--or at least make solid arguments why law over here applies to facts over there when no one (or, rather, no precedent) has said that law applies to those facts. It sounds like, based on these factors, that you will be a very good law student.
But as for being a lawyer, practice is only partially about, you know, the law. A lot of it is also being a people person, dealing with other lawyers (on your side and not), dealing with judges or other adjudicating bodies, and dealing with clients (corporate or not). And it sounds like you have some self-confidence and self-esteem issues. You can overcome them, but only if you really want to. So the question is, do you want to?
Look, what do you want to DO with a law degree? Do you want to practice? What kind of clients do you want to represent? Disadvantaged? Corporate? Accused criminals? Do you want clients to pay you or not? Do you think you want to be a litigator or not? If you don't want to practice, what else might you want to do? Do you want to teach? Do research? Are you really interested in the reading and writing portion or are you also attracted to the representation part?
I don't mean that you need to know if you want to represent victims of domestic violence who are also members of a disadvantaged religious and ethnic minority. Far from it. But do some research to figure out what it's like to work as a lawyer doing the specific things you enjoy--and make sure that work doesn't involve things that you either don't enjoy or won't be able to or aren't willing to do, or at least be informed about that.
So, there are a ton of questions that you need to ask yourself. I'll say that you are already way ahead of most people who are thinking of going to law school in that you actually appear to know that you will enjoy the subject matter of law school. But law school is only three years and, speaking as someone who LOVED LOVED LOVED law school, I find that only 60% of my practice (and that's a generous estimate) involves the stuff I really enjoyed in law school and at least 10% involves stuff I genuinely hate.
*As for recommendations, I had been out of college for 6 years and I got college profs to write me recommendations, so don't fret on that count. And I went to law school with plenty of people who didn't dress up, wear makeup, etc. Frankly, attractiveness is more about self-confidence than anything, and I've already noted that you seem to have a self-confidence problem.
Feel free to Mefi mail me if you have questions.
posted by devinemissk at 6:43 PM on March 9, 2010
But as for being a lawyer, practice is only partially about, you know, the law. A lot of it is also being a people person, dealing with other lawyers (on your side and not), dealing with judges or other adjudicating bodies, and dealing with clients (corporate or not). And it sounds like you have some self-confidence and self-esteem issues. You can overcome them, but only if you really want to. So the question is, do you want to?
Look, what do you want to DO with a law degree? Do you want to practice? What kind of clients do you want to represent? Disadvantaged? Corporate? Accused criminals? Do you want clients to pay you or not? Do you think you want to be a litigator or not? If you don't want to practice, what else might you want to do? Do you want to teach? Do research? Are you really interested in the reading and writing portion or are you also attracted to the representation part?
I don't mean that you need to know if you want to represent victims of domestic violence who are also members of a disadvantaged religious and ethnic minority. Far from it. But do some research to figure out what it's like to work as a lawyer doing the specific things you enjoy--and make sure that work doesn't involve things that you either don't enjoy or won't be able to or aren't willing to do, or at least be informed about that.
So, there are a ton of questions that you need to ask yourself. I'll say that you are already way ahead of most people who are thinking of going to law school in that you actually appear to know that you will enjoy the subject matter of law school. But law school is only three years and, speaking as someone who LOVED LOVED LOVED law school, I find that only 60% of my practice (and that's a generous estimate) involves the stuff I really enjoyed in law school and at least 10% involves stuff I genuinely hate.
*As for recommendations, I had been out of college for 6 years and I got college profs to write me recommendations, so don't fret on that count. And I went to law school with plenty of people who didn't dress up, wear makeup, etc. Frankly, attractiveness is more about self-confidence than anything, and I've already noted that you seem to have a self-confidence problem.
Feel free to Mefi mail me if you have questions.
posted by devinemissk at 6:43 PM on March 9, 2010
I didn't see anything on your FOR list that you actually want to accomplish with that experience and those credentials.
Yes, I that's a good indication that the OP has a better than average chance of being happy and successful as an attorney.
This is a very, very good point. Alms speaks the truth.
posted by Jaltcoh at 6:44 PM on March 9, 2010
Yes, I that's a good indication that the OP has a better than average chance of being happy and successful as an attorney.
This is a very, very good point. Alms speaks the truth.
posted by Jaltcoh at 6:44 PM on March 9, 2010
Just want to add that from where I sit here in the library, I can see a photo of one of my professors wearing an his usual outfit, a stained white number which is akin to an oversized caftan and pajama pants. He is not of an ethnic background that usually wears caftans. You will be fine in LS with no makeup.
posted by Ashley801 at 6:44 PM on March 9, 2010
posted by Ashley801 at 6:44 PM on March 9, 2010
From your short description of yourself, my prediction is that you will do well in law school. Maybe even better than well. You sound very much like you might actually enjoy law school, which I find is fairly uncommon. As for whether you'll enjoy life as a lawyer ... who knows? I expect there's some correlation between doing well in law school and having a happy legal career, but it's not a perfect correlation. In this, as in everything, luck plays a distressingly important role.
alms: "Yes, I that's a good indication that the OP has a better than average chance of being happy and successful as an attorney"
This is very insightful, and absolutely true. The legal burn-outs I know are of two flavors: the ones who went in thinking they'd work insane hours until they'd eaten their way up the food chain and then decided it wasn't worth it (not all legal jobs are like this, but it seems that many are); and the "true believers" who got fed up with dealing with the assholes on the other side. There are, unfortunately, a lot of asshole attorneys. If you (like me) have both reasonable expectations of how much good you're going to be able to accomplish and strictly enforced limits on how much you let your job encroach on the rest of your life, you'll be fine.
You can Mefi mail me as well if you want to discuss further.
Jaltcoh: "There is definitely not a rule that you have to be physically attractive in order to be successful in the legal profession."
me: living proof.
posted by lex mercatoria at 7:11 PM on March 9, 2010
alms: "Yes, I that's a good indication that the OP has a better than average chance of being happy and successful as an attorney"
This is very insightful, and absolutely true. The legal burn-outs I know are of two flavors: the ones who went in thinking they'd work insane hours until they'd eaten their way up the food chain and then decided it wasn't worth it (not all legal jobs are like this, but it seems that many are); and the "true believers" who got fed up with dealing with the assholes on the other side. There are, unfortunately, a lot of asshole attorneys. If you (like me) have both reasonable expectations of how much good you're going to be able to accomplish and strictly enforced limits on how much you let your job encroach on the rest of your life, you'll be fine.
You can Mefi mail me as well if you want to discuss further.
Jaltcoh: "There is definitely not a rule that you have to be physically attractive in order to be successful in the legal profession."
me: living proof.
posted by lex mercatoria at 7:11 PM on March 9, 2010
Best answer: I very much enjoyed my undergrad business law classes, though I got B's in them because I wasn't studying. (Bad me, I know.)
I find contracts interesting. And estate documents.
I actually read the terms for websites I sign up for.
Well, I read cereal boxes when I don't have anything else to read.
I enjoy rhetoric.
I communicate well verbally.
I like discussions of things in which there are gray areas.
I have done logic puzzles for fun since grade school.
I have been a transactional lawyer for a decade or so, and I have no idea what people are talking about when they say these aren't "for" reasons for being a lawyer.
These tasks and activities are highly correlated with activities in the practice of law, especially transactional law. Throw in some strong interest in advocacy and writing with your interest in contracts, reading them, engaging in rhetoric about them, communicating about them, discussing gray areas in them and engaging in logical machinations about them, and you've just described what transactional lawyers do all day.
Also, let's be frank about the cost here: with that GPA and your background, you can go to law school free or nearly free at some very good schools if you do as well on the LSAT (or even nearly that well) as you have been testing.
posted by iknowizbirfmark at 7:35 PM on March 9, 2010 [1 favorite]
I find contracts interesting. And estate documents.
I actually read the terms for websites I sign up for.
Well, I read cereal boxes when I don't have anything else to read.
I enjoy rhetoric.
I communicate well verbally.
I like discussions of things in which there are gray areas.
I have done logic puzzles for fun since grade school.
I have been a transactional lawyer for a decade or so, and I have no idea what people are talking about when they say these aren't "for" reasons for being a lawyer.
These tasks and activities are highly correlated with activities in the practice of law, especially transactional law. Throw in some strong interest in advocacy and writing with your interest in contracts, reading them, engaging in rhetoric about them, communicating about them, discussing gray areas in them and engaging in logical machinations about them, and you've just described what transactional lawyers do all day.
Also, let's be frank about the cost here: with that GPA and your background, you can go to law school free or nearly free at some very good schools if you do as well on the LSAT (or even nearly that well) as you have been testing.
posted by iknowizbirfmark at 7:35 PM on March 9, 2010 [1 favorite]
I think you're lawyer material. You obviously have the grades and LSAT to get in to law school, and it seems like you'll actually enjoy being a lawyer once you're through. Datapoint: I've been a lawyer about 6 months. I work as a public defender and love almost every aspect of my job. I figured when I applied to law schools that I wanted to be a trial lawyer, but I didn't have any more definite ideas than that.
The people that washed out during law school either went to law school because it was simply the next expected step (right out of undergrad, or dad was paying tuition, etc), or because they couldn't handle the work and realized that legal analysis wasn't their cup of tea. You don't seem to fit into either group. And you're obviously not considering law school as a vanity degree.
I don't know what sort of people start out as lawyers and then give it up later, simply because I haven't been a lawyer long enough to figure that out. But I think you'll be a good lawyer. The tricky stuff is simply picking what law school you want to go to and then using internships and classes to figure out what area of the law you want to specialize in.
posted by Happydaz at 7:38 PM on March 9, 2010
The people that washed out during law school either went to law school because it was simply the next expected step (right out of undergrad, or dad was paying tuition, etc), or because they couldn't handle the work and realized that legal analysis wasn't their cup of tea. You don't seem to fit into either group. And you're obviously not considering law school as a vanity degree.
I don't know what sort of people start out as lawyers and then give it up later, simply because I haven't been a lawyer long enough to figure that out. But I think you'll be a good lawyer. The tricky stuff is simply picking what law school you want to go to and then using internships and classes to figure out what area of the law you want to specialize in.
posted by Happydaz at 7:38 PM on March 9, 2010
Best answer: When they say "lawyers write for a living" it does not mean "lawyers write for a living" in any sense that what one who writes in college or for a hobby likes to write. It means lawyers create legal documents for 8 hours a day. Spend 8 straight hours reading contracts, settlement agreements, loan documents, consumer fraud complaints, motions for summary judgment, discovery requests and then imagine writing that, every day for the next ten years, and you'll have some idea of what "lawyers write for a living" means. Chances are, it's not what you think it means. You may find it interesting; you may not.
For the first six of the ten years I've been an attorney, I truly enjoyed the work I did as an attorney. My student loan debt was staggering, but I didn't care. Then I took a year off, then I switched career paths but remained an attorney. That was when I worked with assholes who practiced bad law badly and had neither professional, nor personal ethics. Plus the legal matters that the firm handled were fucking boring too. My debt was still staggering, though I had a better income, but it was more worrying. Now, I'm doing legal work, again, that I enjoy. My debt remains staggering, and now I really care but there is very little I can do about that.
So I don't know if you should or shouldn't go to law school. I tell everyone not to. But the most important thing to know before you go is that the debt is irrational and unbelievably burdensome. Go to a law school in the market where you want to work. All but the incredibly huge firms who only hire the top five kids in any class want you to have graduated locally. Go to the school that offers you a scholarship or other nondebt aid. No-one but the incredibly huge firms who only hire the top five kids in any class care that your school has only a local or regional reputation (as long as it's a reasonably good reputation). Network your ass off and you'll have as good a chance as anyone of landing your first job, but you won't be paying off $120k in law school loans on top of it.
posted by crush-onastick at 7:41 PM on March 9, 2010
For the first six of the ten years I've been an attorney, I truly enjoyed the work I did as an attorney. My student loan debt was staggering, but I didn't care. Then I took a year off, then I switched career paths but remained an attorney. That was when I worked with assholes who practiced bad law badly and had neither professional, nor personal ethics. Plus the legal matters that the firm handled were fucking boring too. My debt was still staggering, though I had a better income, but it was more worrying. Now, I'm doing legal work, again, that I enjoy. My debt remains staggering, and now I really care but there is very little I can do about that.
So I don't know if you should or shouldn't go to law school. I tell everyone not to. But the most important thing to know before you go is that the debt is irrational and unbelievably burdensome. Go to a law school in the market where you want to work. All but the incredibly huge firms who only hire the top five kids in any class want you to have graduated locally. Go to the school that offers you a scholarship or other nondebt aid. No-one but the incredibly huge firms who only hire the top five kids in any class care that your school has only a local or regional reputation (as long as it's a reasonably good reputation). Network your ass off and you'll have as good a chance as anyone of landing your first job, but you won't be paying off $120k in law school loans on top of it.
posted by crush-onastick at 7:41 PM on March 9, 2010
I have an idea. Apply to law schools where you get a full ride (like your state school), and if you still like it/want to do it after the first year, tranfer to a higher ranked school.
You sound like a better candidate for law school than a lot of people who I knew went. Learn to get along with everybody and make friends of everyone. That will help you more than being attractive.
posted by anniecat at 8:04 PM on March 9, 2010
You sound like a better candidate for law school than a lot of people who I knew went. Learn to get along with everybody and make friends of everyone. That will help you more than being attractive.
posted by anniecat at 8:04 PM on March 9, 2010
Start here
realize that lawyers consistently rank near the bottom for happiness and often in job satisfaction as well.
posted by edgeways at 8:16 PM on March 9, 2010
realize that lawyers consistently rank near the bottom for happiness and often in job satisfaction as well.
posted by edgeways at 8:16 PM on March 9, 2010
I started law school in 2004, seven years after graduating from college. It was a challenge to be surrounded again (and for three years!) by young pups living in dorms who were thoroughly absorbed in the social drama inherent in such situations. It was also a challenge to start my new career at 32 at the bottom of the hierarchy and to take assignments from 26 year olds. And because I started in a large law firm, it was particularly challenging to do menial work for the first two years, including more document review than I care to discuss.
I moved to Denver in July, and even though I went to a top law school, have a strong resume, and was moving from a large, well-known Boston firm, it took me six months to find a job here. I like my new job quite a bit - but I am still working long hours, most of which are in front of a computer drafting legal documents. My experience may not be typical. Many new lawyers have it worse.
Two other things to think about (that have both been mentioned above): (1) law school is *expensive* without substantial grants (which are hard to come by at upper-tier schools, even with your GPA/LSAT combo), and (2) the market is in the tank now, after what looks to be a semi-permanent structural change, and even if it recovers, employment among associates will lag. Summer employment will be harder to find, and the market may well be down even when you graduate. The really good jobs are normally tough to get unless you go to a top-ranked school or do very well at the school you choose. But even mediocre jobs are in short supply now.
As far as your appearance goes - being beautiful (and confident) probably wouldn't hurt your chances of success much, but I know plenty of very good attorneys who are not remotely attractive. The edge beauty might give someone is not significant enough to tip the scales entirely - your appearance should not be a material consideration in your decision. Far more important are how well you manage stress, your organizational skills, your ability to manage several complex tasks simultaneously, time management skills, communication skills, and your flexibility with respect to demands on your time.
posted by dilettanti at 8:24 PM on March 9, 2010
I moved to Denver in July, and even though I went to a top law school, have a strong resume, and was moving from a large, well-known Boston firm, it took me six months to find a job here. I like my new job quite a bit - but I am still working long hours, most of which are in front of a computer drafting legal documents. My experience may not be typical. Many new lawyers have it worse.
Two other things to think about (that have both been mentioned above): (1) law school is *expensive* without substantial grants (which are hard to come by at upper-tier schools, even with your GPA/LSAT combo), and (2) the market is in the tank now, after what looks to be a semi-permanent structural change, and even if it recovers, employment among associates will lag. Summer employment will be harder to find, and the market may well be down even when you graduate. The really good jobs are normally tough to get unless you go to a top-ranked school or do very well at the school you choose. But even mediocre jobs are in short supply now.
As far as your appearance goes - being beautiful (and confident) probably wouldn't hurt your chances of success much, but I know plenty of very good attorneys who are not remotely attractive. The edge beauty might give someone is not significant enough to tip the scales entirely - your appearance should not be a material consideration in your decision. Far more important are how well you manage stress, your organizational skills, your ability to manage several complex tasks simultaneously, time management skills, communication skills, and your flexibility with respect to demands on your time.
posted by dilettanti at 8:24 PM on March 9, 2010
I am not a lawyer, and my only qualification is that I lived with two people who practiced very different types of law and heard about their work day in, day out, for several years. Actual lawyers, please correct any misinformation.
If I hear you right, you communicate well, are logical, can think on your feet, and actually care about mind-numbing details. Those are all good, and the fact that you mentioned them makes me think that you have a pretty realistic sense of what the work entails. Managing time, keeping track of deadlines, working well under time pressure, dealing with the pressure to be perfect, putting up with aggressive people, trying to get teammates to follow through, being assertive without getting emotional, and having the patience to handhold non-lawyers are a few others that may be useful.
I'm setting aside whether you can get into law school and what stress your family would create, and all I know about sensory defensiveness is what I just learned from the internet. It sounds like your challenges might include a lack of charisma and polish, some special needs regarding work environment and work schedule (low stimulus, opportunity to exercise), and the potential to "melt down" if those needs aren't met. What sort of stimuli do you need to avoid for your own comfort? What environments can you comfortably work in? What are your activity needs (schedule, location)? What are the chances that you would have a meltdown in court or on a conference call? Was being in an office environment all day difficult for you? If you can't wear makeup and heels, can you still dress for "business formal" environments? What cities you would be willing to live in? Do those past performance problems suggest you should avoid any particular roles or tasks? These will determine the types of job opportunities that would likely be a good match for you.
As the restrictions go up, the opportunities go down, but it's certainly not impossible to find legal jobs that don't involve juries, rarely or never involve court appearances, and offer a relatively controllable environment. One of my roommates works from home 2-3 days every week, wears jeans on most days, and appears in court only two to three times a year, for instance. Good luck.
posted by salvia at 8:30 PM on March 9, 2010 [1 favorite]
If I hear you right, you communicate well, are logical, can think on your feet, and actually care about mind-numbing details. Those are all good, and the fact that you mentioned them makes me think that you have a pretty realistic sense of what the work entails. Managing time, keeping track of deadlines, working well under time pressure, dealing with the pressure to be perfect, putting up with aggressive people, trying to get teammates to follow through, being assertive without getting emotional, and having the patience to handhold non-lawyers are a few others that may be useful.
I'm setting aside whether you can get into law school and what stress your family would create, and all I know about sensory defensiveness is what I just learned from the internet. It sounds like your challenges might include a lack of charisma and polish, some special needs regarding work environment and work schedule (low stimulus, opportunity to exercise), and the potential to "melt down" if those needs aren't met. What sort of stimuli do you need to avoid for your own comfort? What environments can you comfortably work in? What are your activity needs (schedule, location)? What are the chances that you would have a meltdown in court or on a conference call? Was being in an office environment all day difficult for you? If you can't wear makeup and heels, can you still dress for "business formal" environments? What cities you would be willing to live in? Do those past performance problems suggest you should avoid any particular roles or tasks? These will determine the types of job opportunities that would likely be a good match for you.
As the restrictions go up, the opportunities go down, but it's certainly not impossible to find legal jobs that don't involve juries, rarely or never involve court appearances, and offer a relatively controllable environment. One of my roommates works from home 2-3 days every week, wears jeans on most days, and appears in court only two to three times a year, for instance. Good luck.
posted by salvia at 8:30 PM on March 9, 2010 [1 favorite]
Sounds like your decision/path* to go to law school would make a great essay for your applications.
*Include personal struggle, issues with family, culture, etc. Be open and honest but also positive, not defeatist.
Don't worry about makeup (not a requirement), high-heels (there are plenty of pretty flats out there), or looks. Don't believe what's on TV. Lawyers don't look that great in real life.
Best of luck!
posted by Neekee at 8:33 PM on March 9, 2010
*Include personal struggle, issues with family, culture, etc. Be open and honest but also positive, not defeatist.
Don't worry about makeup (not a requirement), high-heels (there are plenty of pretty flats out there), or looks. Don't believe what's on TV. Lawyers don't look that great in real life.
Best of luck!
posted by Neekee at 8:33 PM on March 9, 2010
I've been hesitating to mention this, since I'm not sure if it applies to the OP (specifically, to whether the "spotty employment," past "performance issues," and "class issues" could inhibit keeping a job), and I'm not sure if it is a valid observation about the legal field. Maybe others can comment.
But if I compare my roommates' stories to my own work experience, they deal with some behavior that my colleagues would consider shun-worthily inappropriate. Handling disagreements in angry or aggressive ways would get a person uninvited to most of what I do. It'd happen once; you'd get shut out of opportunities; you'd lose your job. So I see some passive aggression, but never actual aggression. But in my roommates' work life, angry outbursts, aggression, and threats are infrequent but common enough that I've heard about them. So, if the OP's troublesome past behavior was at the angrier end of the spectrum, could the legal field actually be an easier place to fit in?
Caveats: I'm not saying "easy," necessarily, just not quite as zero-tolerance. I'm sure some places are zero-tolerance and that there's a wide variety. And calmness is certainly better.
posted by salvia at 9:00 PM on March 9, 2010
But if I compare my roommates' stories to my own work experience, they deal with some behavior that my colleagues would consider shun-worthily inappropriate. Handling disagreements in angry or aggressive ways would get a person uninvited to most of what I do. It'd happen once; you'd get shut out of opportunities; you'd lose your job. So I see some passive aggression, but never actual aggression. But in my roommates' work life, angry outbursts, aggression, and threats are infrequent but common enough that I've heard about them. So, if the OP's troublesome past behavior was at the angrier end of the spectrum, could the legal field actually be an easier place to fit in?
Caveats: I'm not saying "easy," necessarily, just not quite as zero-tolerance. I'm sure some places are zero-tolerance and that there's a wide variety. And calmness is certainly better.
posted by salvia at 9:00 PM on March 9, 2010
Response by poster: Lots of *great* responses here already, lots of things to mark best but everybody's been helpful, lots more research to do, much love for MeFi, and a few clarifications if anybody still reads this far:
The performance issues had to do with taking a job in a field I thought I would like but didn't. I was barely capable of doing the work but could not keep up with the requirements of productivity for the office, in part because my sensory issues were totally uncontrolled at that point. I tried to explain this to my boss, got told I just needed to "deal with it", fell further and further behind, eventually hit the point where I could not catch up no matter what I possibly did, quit. I don't want to get too detailed about what I was doing at the time, but I can't think of any area of the law in which a similar thing would be required of me, and I do have the sensory stuff under control to the point where "sitting in an office with fluorescent lights" is no longer a significant problem for my concentration. I still would have been rotten at it even without the sensory problems. They just compounded the existing problem.
If nobody's going to judge me for being splotchy, I can handle suits. I actually like the slight compression of pantyhose, and that plus a blouse in a fabric that doesn't bother means whatever I put on over it doesn't matter. That part is good. I just... have no experience in a world where people wear them all the time so I had no idea if more was necessary.
posted by gracedissolved at 9:55 PM on March 9, 2010
The performance issues had to do with taking a job in a field I thought I would like but didn't. I was barely capable of doing the work but could not keep up with the requirements of productivity for the office, in part because my sensory issues were totally uncontrolled at that point. I tried to explain this to my boss, got told I just needed to "deal with it", fell further and further behind, eventually hit the point where I could not catch up no matter what I possibly did, quit. I don't want to get too detailed about what I was doing at the time, but I can't think of any area of the law in which a similar thing would be required of me, and I do have the sensory stuff under control to the point where "sitting in an office with fluorescent lights" is no longer a significant problem for my concentration. I still would have been rotten at it even without the sensory problems. They just compounded the existing problem.
If nobody's going to judge me for being splotchy, I can handle suits. I actually like the slight compression of pantyhose, and that plus a blouse in a fabric that doesn't bother means whatever I put on over it doesn't matter. That part is good. I just... have no experience in a world where people wear them all the time so I had no idea if more was necessary.
posted by gracedissolved at 9:55 PM on March 9, 2010
From a financial point of view:
With a 3.9, 170+ and URM status you should be able to get a big check from a top-14 law school. You can probably count on receiving 50-75% of tuition depending on how high you reach.
If you're extremely debt-averse, you should be able to get a full ride from a Top 20/30 school with strong regional pull in an area you might like to work. (Think Vanderbilt/Emory for the south, UCLA/USC for the west, WUSTL/UMN/UIUC/IU/ND for the midwest, BU/BC for New England, Fordham for NYC, W&M/GWU/W&L for D.C., etc)
Go be a lawyer. The advantage of graduating from a good school with little (or no) debt is that you can afford to take a job outside of biglaw and without the $160k paycheck. Find something you like to do and feel free to take a $75k paycheck to do it because you won't have $2000/mo in loans to pay off.
posted by jckll at 7:57 AM on March 10, 2010
With a 3.9, 170+ and URM status you should be able to get a big check from a top-14 law school. You can probably count on receiving 50-75% of tuition depending on how high you reach.
If you're extremely debt-averse, you should be able to get a full ride from a Top 20/30 school with strong regional pull in an area you might like to work. (Think Vanderbilt/Emory for the south, UCLA/USC for the west, WUSTL/UMN/UIUC/IU/ND for the midwest, BU/BC for New England, Fordham for NYC, W&M/GWU/W&L for D.C., etc)
Go be a lawyer. The advantage of graduating from a good school with little (or no) debt is that you can afford to take a job outside of biglaw and without the $160k paycheck. Find something you like to do and feel free to take a $75k paycheck to do it because you won't have $2000/mo in loans to pay off.
posted by jckll at 7:57 AM on March 10, 2010
I would suggest that you factor into your FOR/AGAINST list the degree to which you are able to handle conflict.
Here's why: If you are going to be in private practice, for the most part people do not come into a lawyer's office when things are going all fine and dandy. They come to see you when they have a problem in their personal or business life. That means that lawyers are, as one of my partners puts it, "the garbagemen for people's lives." I could go on about what that means (particularly in the context of our family law practice), but for the purposes of your question, I would strongly recommend taking some time now to think about how you presently cope with other people's problems. Are you a fixer? Does it pain you to even listen to other people talk about their issues? Are you able to detach and analyze? Etc.... Now imagine doing that as your full-time job. Some people thrive on it; others don't. Figure out which category you're in.
Law school doesn't change who you are fundamentally; it just gives you a different forum in which you will be using your basic skills and a new set of tools to use.
Again, this applies principally (but not entirely) to private practice lawyering where your clients are real people with real problems.
posted by webhund at 8:07 AM on March 10, 2010
Here's why: If you are going to be in private practice, for the most part people do not come into a lawyer's office when things are going all fine and dandy. They come to see you when they have a problem in their personal or business life. That means that lawyers are, as one of my partners puts it, "the garbagemen for people's lives." I could go on about what that means (particularly in the context of our family law practice), but for the purposes of your question, I would strongly recommend taking some time now to think about how you presently cope with other people's problems. Are you a fixer? Does it pain you to even listen to other people talk about their issues? Are you able to detach and analyze? Etc.... Now imagine doing that as your full-time job. Some people thrive on it; others don't. Figure out which category you're in.
Law school doesn't change who you are fundamentally; it just gives you a different forum in which you will be using your basic skills and a new set of tools to use.
Again, this applies principally (but not entirely) to private practice lawyering where your clients are real people with real problems.
posted by webhund at 8:07 AM on March 10, 2010
Here's why: If you are going to be in private practice, for the most part people do not come into a lawyer's office when things are going all fine and dandy. They come to see you when they have a problem in their personal or business life. That means that lawyers are, as one of my partners puts it, "the garbagemen for people's lives."
I want to point out that this is not true for a significant portion of the modern practice of law which falls into the "transactional" category, which is itself a pretty significant portion of the practice of law. Not everything is litigation, criminal law or family law disputes.
posted by iknowizbirfmark at 12:22 PM on March 10, 2010
I want to point out that this is not true for a significant portion of the modern practice of law which falls into the "transactional" category, which is itself a pretty significant portion of the practice of law. Not everything is litigation, criminal law or family law disputes.
posted by iknowizbirfmark at 12:22 PM on March 10, 2010
Have you considered becoming a paralegal instead? Less cost for schooling and usually quicker (which might be a benefit since you seem to feel that you are "late in the game" for entering a career), but you work in lawyer environments doing law-related work and research.
posted by WeekendJen at 1:58 PM on March 10, 2010
posted by WeekendJen at 1:58 PM on March 10, 2010
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by mhoye at 6:16 PM on March 9, 2010 [2 favorites]