Desert the dissertation or have investigator for dessert?
February 5, 2010 5:18 AM Subscribe
Am trying to deal with unreasonable principal investigator, who refuses to, or tries to get me to, pay for research-related costs. Most shocking detail: today this investigator attempted to get me to pay $500 for software licenses that we needed. I am still owed $200 for other costs that I am afraid will not be covered now. What recourse do I have? Details inside.
Hello MeFites, I have just begun working with this investigator for my dissertation. The process has been harrowing as I was brought on board to revise a design that was obvious to me would fail. Despite this, he has resisted my suggestions for change, until today, less than a week before we are scheduled to run trials. There has been serious ambiguity over the shape of the design since I was brought on as he would toy with changing the design radically then change his mind a few days later. Of course, this has been frustrating, but is not the issue at hand.
Earlier this week, because the design failed like I thought it would and hasn't been changed like I said it should, he made what I felt to be an outrageous request. We have been running test trials, the first few of which had paid subjects. Subsequent to these, however, I have had to solicit for "free" participants in additional last-minute test trials (2-day turnaround) because of "errors" in my handling of the earlier test trials. Perhaps I should not have because now he expects me to continue doing so and I have run out of people who will do me such favours. When I brought this up, he had the gall to ask me to pay participants out of my own pocket. I outright refused because the additional trials were due not to these "errors" but a failure to get ANY results due to, you guessed it, a fail design. However, he still insists that I pay if I cannot find anyone.
Today, however, was way beyond that. To transcribe the entire exchange (and hope that he is unaware of metafilter),
1. I was asked if I had a credit card;
2. I said yes, I had a debit card, but tied to an account that had a balance lower than $500, and would incur overdraft charges if I used the card;
3. he asked if I could top it up to pay for it, or if I could get my significant other do so
4. I said I was broke (which is true!) and that no significant other would do that.
I have already incurred printing charges of about $100 that cannot be expensed to him because network printing does not generate receipts. Further, I am sitting on $200 of other receipts that I am afraid will not be covered now.
I feel like I cannot confront this person because it will be useless. Typical confrontations run along the lines of "[discussion of issue]", "I don't care" OR "if you work hard enough, it will get done".
Two questions:
1. What can I do about his unreasonable behaviour? Is there any form of arbitration or recourse? Is there anything I can do at all, or will I have to sit down, shut up, and drink my goddam tea?
2. Is this totally abnormal, and what should I expect to be the norm for behaviour if that's the case? I have little experience with research and do not know how expenses are, well, typically expensed.
(First AskMe, I am sad it has to be this way.) Thank you all in advance! Any details I need to include, please indicate!
Hello MeFites, I have just begun working with this investigator for my dissertation. The process has been harrowing as I was brought on board to revise a design that was obvious to me would fail. Despite this, he has resisted my suggestions for change, until today, less than a week before we are scheduled to run trials. There has been serious ambiguity over the shape of the design since I was brought on as he would toy with changing the design radically then change his mind a few days later. Of course, this has been frustrating, but is not the issue at hand.
Earlier this week, because the design failed like I thought it would and hasn't been changed like I said it should, he made what I felt to be an outrageous request. We have been running test trials, the first few of which had paid subjects. Subsequent to these, however, I have had to solicit for "free" participants in additional last-minute test trials (2-day turnaround) because of "errors" in my handling of the earlier test trials. Perhaps I should not have because now he expects me to continue doing so and I have run out of people who will do me such favours. When I brought this up, he had the gall to ask me to pay participants out of my own pocket. I outright refused because the additional trials were due not to these "errors" but a failure to get ANY results due to, you guessed it, a fail design. However, he still insists that I pay if I cannot find anyone.
Today, however, was way beyond that. To transcribe the entire exchange (and hope that he is unaware of metafilter),
1. I was asked if I had a credit card;
2. I said yes, I had a debit card, but tied to an account that had a balance lower than $500, and would incur overdraft charges if I used the card;
3. he asked if I could top it up to pay for it, or if I could get my significant other do so
4. I said I was broke (which is true!) and that no significant other would do that.
I have already incurred printing charges of about $100 that cannot be expensed to him because network printing does not generate receipts. Further, I am sitting on $200 of other receipts that I am afraid will not be covered now.
I feel like I cannot confront this person because it will be useless. Typical confrontations run along the lines of "[discussion of issue]", "I don't care" OR "if you work hard enough, it will get done".
Two questions:
1. What can I do about his unreasonable behaviour? Is there any form of arbitration or recourse? Is there anything I can do at all, or will I have to sit down, shut up, and drink my goddam tea?
2. Is this totally abnormal, and what should I expect to be the norm for behaviour if that's the case? I have little experience with research and do not know how expenses are, well, typically expensed.
(First AskMe, I am sad it has to be this way.) Thank you all in advance! Any details I need to include, please indicate!
2nd DevilsAdvocate.
Also, if the PI is not your advisor, talk to your advisor immediately.
posted by The Michael The at 5:44 AM on February 5, 2010
Also, if the PI is not your advisor, talk to your advisor immediately.
posted by The Michael The at 5:44 AM on February 5, 2010
Best answer: This is inappropriate, and also extremely unethical. Typically, software/licensing purchases like the ones you're discussing would go on a lab or department credit card or purchase order -- unless, perhaps, it's for installation on your own personal computer. Also, the idea that you should pay study participants out of your own money violates all sorts of human subjects regulations. Get out of the lab before you waste more time there.
In terms of the $200 of expenses you need to be reimbursed for, I'd go ahead and talk to the folks in your department's purchasing office about how you file for reimbursement. Play innocent, and demonstrate that you fully expect to be reimbursed. Hand over the receipts (keep copies), explain what they were for, and ask for reimbursement. I'm willing to guess, though, that your PI is out of money, which means that you need to find yourself a new PI immediately.
Other than that, I'd say that DevilsAdvocate is right on in terms of how to approach the situation with the department/university. And just for emphases, I'm going to say it again: you need to find yourself a new PI immediately.
posted by amelioration at 5:50 AM on February 5, 2010
In terms of the $200 of expenses you need to be reimbursed for, I'd go ahead and talk to the folks in your department's purchasing office about how you file for reimbursement. Play innocent, and demonstrate that you fully expect to be reimbursed. Hand over the receipts (keep copies), explain what they were for, and ask for reimbursement. I'm willing to guess, though, that your PI is out of money, which means that you need to find yourself a new PI immediately.
Other than that, I'd say that DevilsAdvocate is right on in terms of how to approach the situation with the department/university. And just for emphases, I'm going to say it again: you need to find yourself a new PI immediately.
posted by amelioration at 5:50 AM on February 5, 2010
Echoing what DevilsAdvocate said: yes, it is unreasonable for PIs to ask their charges to cover research expenses out of pocket. This is probably a matter for the department chair; I wouldn't escalate things to the dean or the ombudsman just yet, at least not before you give the department a chance to resolve this internally.
And yes, if there's any way to change PIs in your department, you should try to do so. It's possible that this will all sort itself out and you and your PI will be best buds after this, but I wouldn't count on it.
posted by Johnny Assay at 5:52 AM on February 5, 2010
And yes, if there's any way to change PIs in your department, you should try to do so. It's possible that this will all sort itself out and you and your PI will be best buds after this, but I wouldn't count on it.
posted by Johnny Assay at 5:52 AM on February 5, 2010
You also need to consider who your funding source is and who your PI's funding source is. If you are funded separately, I would expect your funding source to be very unhappy about paying for his lab expenditures. If you are funded by his grants, then his funding source will have a problem with money that was meant for students going to lab costs.
Go to the chair. This is much more significant than just a "PI-student disagreement". A good chair would want to know about this behavior since it might be indicative of other improper grant handling, and no chair wants to incur the wrath that funding agencies can bring when their money is handled improperly.
posted by kiltedtaco at 6:52 AM on February 5, 2010
Go to the chair. This is much more significant than just a "PI-student disagreement". A good chair would want to know about this behavior since it might be indicative of other improper grant handling, and no chair wants to incur the wrath that funding agencies can bring when their money is handled improperly.
posted by kiltedtaco at 6:52 AM on February 5, 2010
Nthing. No post doc or grad student in our group has ever had to pay for anything out of their own pocket. That's what mentoring grants are for. If this is his/her work and not yours, it is grossly unethical and definitely needs to be brought to your advisor or the chair.
Good luck.
posted by Sophie1 at 6:58 AM on February 5, 2010
Good luck.
posted by Sophie1 at 6:58 AM on February 5, 2010
Best answer: This is completely abnormal, and some things (paying research subjects with your own money) might even be against the rules of your institutional review board. It might also be against the terms of whatever grants you're on (money is designated separately for things like student stipends and lab supplies.) I'd definitely talk to the department chair. If there are other professors you trust - perhaps at your undergraduate institution, so that you don't have to worry about department politics - talk to them about what you can do in the meantime. Crazy, unethical PIs are unfortunately not unheard of, so they may have some advice. Make sure that you know how to contact higher authorities like the ombudsman, the IRB, and the people you got your grant from if you need to. Meanwhile, you need to document everything. If you're spending hundreds of dollars on printing, for example, start spending them at Kinko's or the university's print shop, so that you can get receipts.
Combine that all with this:
I have just begun working with this investigator for my dissertation. The process has been harrowing as I was brought on board to revise a design that was obvious to me would fail.
And I really, really think you need a new PI. There's no shame in looking for a new lab, and if you've just started out, you should be able to switch labs without . My most charitable interpretation of your PI's actions is that he's out of money. You can apply for some grants and fellowships on your own, sure, but nothing that will keep a lab afloat. Less charitably, the guy's nuts and will make your life hell as long as you're in that lab. Moreover, is this guy going to give you the letters of recommendation, the chances to go to conferences (not on your own dime!), the networking opportunities that a good advisor should? Get out of there, and find a lab where you're treated well and where you've got a chance to succeed with the help of the PI, not despite the PI.
posted by ubersturm at 7:06 AM on February 5, 2010
Combine that all with this:
I have just begun working with this investigator for my dissertation. The process has been harrowing as I was brought on board to revise a design that was obvious to me would fail.
And I really, really think you need a new PI. There's no shame in looking for a new lab, and if you've just started out, you should be able to switch labs without . My most charitable interpretation of your PI's actions is that he's out of money. You can apply for some grants and fellowships on your own, sure, but nothing that will keep a lab afloat. Less charitably, the guy's nuts and will make your life hell as long as you're in that lab. Moreover, is this guy going to give you the letters of recommendation, the chances to go to conferences (not on your own dime!), the networking opportunities that a good advisor should? Get out of there, and find a lab where you're treated well and where you've got a chance to succeed with the help of the PI, not despite the PI.
posted by ubersturm at 7:06 AM on February 5, 2010
Totally unlike anything I'm aware of in my discipline. And second ubersturm, your IRB protocol almost certainly has to list the funding sources used to pay participants, and almost certainly does not list you and your significant other. Go over his head. Depending who else is in the lab and how comfortable you are with them (and them with the PI), you may want to ask around the lab to see if other people have dealt with this too - but tread carefully here if you're new-ish and don't know the relationships in the lab yet.
Please look for a new PI. While I haven't run across this, I've had friends who did theses and dissertations with PIs who were crazy/awful in other ways, and in all cases they had misgivings right away but stuck it out and ultimately lived through multiple completely miserable, awful, soul-crushing years. A dissertation has to be hard but doesn't have to be *awful*, and it's better to get out of a crazy PI situation before you get in too deep.
posted by Stacey at 7:29 AM on February 5, 2010
Please look for a new PI. While I haven't run across this, I've had friends who did theses and dissertations with PIs who were crazy/awful in other ways, and in all cases they had misgivings right away but stuck it out and ultimately lived through multiple completely miserable, awful, soul-crushing years. A dissertation has to be hard but doesn't have to be *awful*, and it's better to get out of a crazy PI situation before you get in too deep.
posted by Stacey at 7:29 AM on February 5, 2010
This is completely unprofessional. If this person is not your adviser, I would definitely talk to your adviser. Either way, you should stop working for this person.
What field are you in? Are you employed through your department or this person's lab?
posted by demiurge at 7:51 AM on February 5, 2010
What field are you in? Are you employed through your department or this person's lab?
posted by demiurge at 7:51 AM on February 5, 2010
Best answer: Go to the chair. This is much more significant than just a "PI-student disagreement". A good chair would want to know about this behavior since it might be indicative of other improper grant handling, and no chair wants to incur the wrath that funding agencies can bring when their money is handled improperly
This. My "improper grant funds management" bells went off right way. Where's the money that's supposed to be used for this? Why doesn't the PI have access to it? What did he spend it on?
(Note: Do not make any accusations to the chair. Just report the facts. Write down your amounts and dates. Estimating stuff for which you don't have receipts is absolutely fine, these expenses still "count" even if you can't prove them with a clear paper trail. Aside from an underdeveloped sense of paranoia, you didn't do anything wrong.)
It's possible that in his defense, your PI is going to try to assert that he just wanted you to cover these expenses for now (what do you want to bet that he'll blame the finance department for too much red tape on access to grant funds) and would pay you back out of the grant in minutes/days/weeks. This is still unethical and unprofessional.
posted by desuetude at 8:06 AM on February 5, 2010
This. My "improper grant funds management" bells went off right way. Where's the money that's supposed to be used for this? Why doesn't the PI have access to it? What did he spend it on?
(Note: Do not make any accusations to the chair. Just report the facts. Write down your amounts and dates. Estimating stuff for which you don't have receipts is absolutely fine, these expenses still "count" even if you can't prove them with a clear paper trail. Aside from an underdeveloped sense of paranoia, you didn't do anything wrong.)
It's possible that in his defense, your PI is going to try to assert that he just wanted you to cover these expenses for now (what do you want to bet that he'll blame the finance department for too much red tape on access to grant funds) and would pay you back out of the grant in minutes/days/weeks. This is still unethical and unprofessional.
posted by desuetude at 8:06 AM on February 5, 2010
Wow.
Your institution probably has
A) Someone in charge of looking after the interests of grad students
B) Someone responsible for managing project budgets (sponsored research office etc.)
I would try to set up a meeting with those two people, and tell them what you told us.
But you might be screwed on finishing your dissertation with this PI... do you have other options in the department?
posted by Jacqueline at 8:23 AM on February 5, 2010
Your institution probably has
A) Someone in charge of looking after the interests of grad students
B) Someone responsible for managing project budgets (sponsored research office etc.)
I would try to set up a meeting with those two people, and tell them what you told us.
But you might be screwed on finishing your dissertation with this PI... do you have other options in the department?
posted by Jacqueline at 8:23 AM on February 5, 2010
Totally abnormal in my experience too. N'thing above suggestions.
Detail concerning expenses that don't generate receipts, like your printing charges: if this is a frequent occurrence in your department (which printing charges would probably be), they've probably worked out a way to handle it. Like, you bring the stack of printouts to the department secretary, tell her how many pages there are, she eyeballs it and agrees, then cuts you a check. Otherwise, most places have a lower limit on what requires a receipt; for example, expenses below $10 can be claimed without a receipt. So you just break it down into small chunks and get reimbursed piecemeal.
posted by Quietgal at 8:23 AM on February 5, 2010
Detail concerning expenses that don't generate receipts, like your printing charges: if this is a frequent occurrence in your department (which printing charges would probably be), they've probably worked out a way to handle it. Like, you bring the stack of printouts to the department secretary, tell her how many pages there are, she eyeballs it and agrees, then cuts you a check. Otherwise, most places have a lower limit on what requires a receipt; for example, expenses below $10 can be claimed without a receipt. So you just break it down into small chunks and get reimbursed piecemeal.
posted by Quietgal at 8:23 AM on February 5, 2010
Oh, and Nthing that this is totally abnormal. He's abusing you.
posted by Jacqueline at 8:24 AM on February 5, 2010
posted by Jacqueline at 8:24 AM on February 5, 2010
I work in a university purchasing department. What you are going through is beyond bizzare. Please take it up with your department chair / advisor / etc.
posted by WeekendJen at 8:48 AM on February 5, 2010
posted by WeekendJen at 8:48 AM on February 5, 2010
I'd just like to point out that, in addition to this whole situation being extremely out-of-bounds, this sentence:
Typical confrontations run along the lines of "[discussion of issue]", "I don't care" OR "if you work hard enough, it will get done".
is enough of a reason to leave your PI's employ immediately. Go find another advisor. Really. There are good scientists out there who will also treat you with respect and respond to your concerns.
posted by you're a kitty! at 3:43 PM on February 5, 2010
Typical confrontations run along the lines of "[discussion of issue]", "I don't care" OR "if you work hard enough, it will get done".
is enough of a reason to leave your PI's employ immediately. Go find another advisor. Really. There are good scientists out there who will also treat you with respect and respond to your concerns.
posted by you're a kitty! at 3:43 PM on February 5, 2010
Response by poster: Hi all,
Thanks for all your suggestions. I've actually changed some of the details to protect myself, as my university has no ombudsman, although it is supposedly one of the best universities in the world. Few people from my region know about MeFi, but the information is specific enough that I'm afraid of repercussions.
Hoping it's ok that I may MeMail some of you regarding the situation.
posted by selvaria at 1:46 AM on February 7, 2010
Thanks for all your suggestions. I've actually changed some of the details to protect myself, as my university has no ombudsman, although it is supposedly one of the best universities in the world. Few people from my region know about MeFi, but the information is specific enough that I'm afraid of repercussions.
Hoping it's ok that I may MeMail some of you regarding the situation.
posted by selvaria at 1:46 AM on February 7, 2010
This thread is closed to new comments.
Yes, this is totally abnormal. Research expenses in academia are generally paid for by the university itself or by grants (which is why a lot of PIs and their students spend a lot of time writing grant proposals). Labs need to (and usually do) operate within the budgets they have available from those sources. No academic researcher (PI or student) should ever have to pay research expenses out of their personal funds. Even when costs are incurred due to mistakes.
Is there any form of arbitration or recourse?
The exact nature of the recourse depends on the institution, but I'd bring this up with someone other than the PI. Many universities have ombudsmen (ombudspersons?) for "I have a problem and I'm not sure who to bring it up with" type problems. The department chair or dean of the school might also be appropriate to approach.
I'd also start looking for a different PI to work with. I don't know exactly what the procedure for that would be at your institution, but it is generally possible to change PIs.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 5:41 AM on February 5, 2010