I'm a night owl and people don't like it
January 24, 2010 6:46 PM Subscribe
How can I get people to show me some respect regarding the fact that I don't sleep during typical hours?
I am, and have always been, a night owl. I work the 3-11 shift and tend to take jobs where I can work that shift.
Recently a lot of people have been giving me crap about the fact that I sleep until about 1pm. I only sleep 8-9 hours a night (day) but they make comments like "must be nice to sleep all day" and insinuate that sleeping on a different schedule makes me lazy. Some people think I need to start getting up at 8am "like the rest of the world" but that sort of schedule has just never made me happy. Some of these people making comments are close friends and family (and some are strangers, like my doctor's office's receptionist scheduling an appointment for me. "Why do you always need a late appointment? Do you have class in the mornings?"). One friend in particular makes comments like "gee, you can't even get out of bed at 9am to go shopping with me?" or "I did all my daily chores before you even got out of bed."
How can I get them to understand that just because I sleep different hours doesn't mean I'm lazy, and that it hurts when they say that and argue with me about getting up earlier?
I am, and have always been, a night owl. I work the 3-11 shift and tend to take jobs where I can work that shift.
Recently a lot of people have been giving me crap about the fact that I sleep until about 1pm. I only sleep 8-9 hours a night (day) but they make comments like "must be nice to sleep all day" and insinuate that sleeping on a different schedule makes me lazy. Some people think I need to start getting up at 8am "like the rest of the world" but that sort of schedule has just never made me happy. Some of these people making comments are close friends and family (and some are strangers, like my doctor's office's receptionist scheduling an appointment for me. "Why do you always need a late appointment? Do you have class in the mornings?"). One friend in particular makes comments like "gee, you can't even get out of bed at 9am to go shopping with me?" or "I did all my daily chores before you even got out of bed."
How can I get them to understand that just because I sleep different hours doesn't mean I'm lazy, and that it hurts when they say that and argue with me about getting up earlier?
Don't worry about these people. Don't argue with them. If someone is important to you, then explain once or twice that you're on a different schedule. After that either ignore their stupidity or make a decision that dealing with them is not worth the hassle.
posted by rdr at 6:50 PM on January 24, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by rdr at 6:50 PM on January 24, 2010 [1 favorite]
You do realize that at least some of those people are jealous, right?
Unfortunately, that's the same kind of crap that you'll get for doing anything nonstandard in life, and there isn't much you can do about that. Though pointing out that you're a natural born night owl and can't freaking function on an 8-5 job schedule without feeling like zonked ass (say, the way the chirpy early birds would feel if they were forced to work till 11 p.m.) would be good. Annoyingly, the early birds won in world domination, but there's a reason why some of us evolved to be on night watch.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:52 PM on January 24, 2010 [9 favorites]
Unfortunately, that's the same kind of crap that you'll get for doing anything nonstandard in life, and there isn't much you can do about that. Though pointing out that you're a natural born night owl and can't freaking function on an 8-5 job schedule without feeling like zonked ass (say, the way the chirpy early birds would feel if they were forced to work till 11 p.m.) would be good. Annoyingly, the early birds won in world domination, but there's a reason why some of us evolved to be on night watch.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:52 PM on January 24, 2010 [9 favorites]
"gee, you can't even get out of bed at 9am to go shopping with me?"
You can translate things like this for them by letting them know that this would be like someone else asking them to get out of bed at 3 AM to shopping.
Also, if they think the right way to live is to get up at 9 AM even though you work at three, you can ask them to live a life in which they get up six hours before they have to go to work, which again, is 3 AM.
posted by ignignokt at 6:57 PM on January 24, 2010 [2 favorites]
You can translate things like this for them by letting them know that this would be like someone else asking them to get out of bed at 3 AM to shopping.
Also, if they think the right way to live is to get up at 9 AM even though you work at three, you can ask them to live a life in which they get up six hours before they have to go to work, which again, is 3 AM.
posted by ignignokt at 6:57 PM on January 24, 2010 [2 favorites]
Some people attach virtue to early waking - it becomes arsehole behaviour when they then attempt to force that virtue onto others. My father will actually mow at 6am when we visit because we commit the crime of staying in bed until 7 or 8 am - it's his way of 'proving' how soft we are. It's a failing of his, not mine.
I've had some success with my mother by pointing out that I manage to do all the things she does, just on a different schedule. I'm not living in a hovel simply because I didn't get up at 6am like her or my father. Dishes still get done, vacuuming still gets done, I still eat. i just have a different schedule. I've occasionally commented on 'while you were snoozing in bed *I* got this, this and this done' as well.
That said, it's only mildly effective. Dad still started leafblowing at 6am on Boxing Day while I was in bed with my 7 month old daughter. Early rising isn't a virtue, it's simply a lifestyle choice and a lot of early risers don't seem to be able to grasp that.
posted by geek anachronism at 7:00 PM on January 24, 2010 [15 favorites]
I've had some success with my mother by pointing out that I manage to do all the things she does, just on a different schedule. I'm not living in a hovel simply because I didn't get up at 6am like her or my father. Dishes still get done, vacuuming still gets done, I still eat. i just have a different schedule. I've occasionally commented on 'while you were snoozing in bed *I* got this, this and this done' as well.
That said, it's only mildly effective. Dad still started leafblowing at 6am on Boxing Day while I was in bed with my 7 month old daughter. Early rising isn't a virtue, it's simply a lifestyle choice and a lot of early risers don't seem to be able to grasp that.
posted by geek anachronism at 7:00 PM on January 24, 2010 [15 favorites]
You're not going to get them to understand anything. All I would say is "If I woke up at 8 am it would be like you waking up at 3 am." or whatever the actual time would be without using my bad mental math. If they really were really getting on my nerves I would add "It's hurtful that you keep calling me lazy for not waking up at 3 am.
posted by amethysts at 7:00 PM on January 24, 2010
posted by amethysts at 7:00 PM on January 24, 2010
Well, probably some of them are jealous. There are plenty of people who like staying up late and would gladly get a job with flexible hours but can't because of their work schedule, kids' school schedules, train schedules, carpool constraints, etc. There are a LOT of reasons why people have to get up earlier than they would otherwise like to. You don't have those reasons, good on you.
I had a coworker at my last job who got in at noon every day and man did I envy him - but I didn't have a car and had to take the train, and it didn't run to a connecting shuttle after 9. So, yeah, occasionally I busted out the snark. Sue me.
posted by crinklebat at 7:02 PM on January 24, 2010 [1 favorite]
I had a coworker at my last job who got in at noon every day and man did I envy him - but I didn't have a car and had to take the train, and it didn't run to a connecting shuttle after 9. So, yeah, occasionally I busted out the snark. Sue me.
posted by crinklebat at 7:02 PM on January 24, 2010 [1 favorite]
I am self-employed and I don't have a set schedule. I've always been a night owl, so I usually work at night if I can. This works out well for me. Most people don't understand it though.
Fuck 'em. Lots of people hate working 8-5, but they don't have a choice. You do, which is awesome. The best thing to do is just to blandly acknowledge whatever shit they give you. Like this:
Friend: Must be nice to sleep all day!
You: Yeah, it really is.
Friend: I did all my daily chores before you even got out of bed.
You: Good for you!
Friend: Gee, you can't even get out of bed at 9am to go shopping with me?
You: Nope. I'll be sleeping in.
It's also none of the receptionist's business why you need a late appointment. If you're standing in front of her, you can just pretend she never said it and just say, "So. 2:00 on Tuesday?" If you feel like not being an asshole like I would be, tell her you work nights and move on.
posted by howrobotsaremade at 7:08 PM on January 24, 2010 [7 favorites]
Fuck 'em. Lots of people hate working 8-5, but they don't have a choice. You do, which is awesome. The best thing to do is just to blandly acknowledge whatever shit they give you. Like this:
Friend: Must be nice to sleep all day!
You: Yeah, it really is.
Friend: I did all my daily chores before you even got out of bed.
You: Good for you!
Friend: Gee, you can't even get out of bed at 9am to go shopping with me?
You: Nope. I'll be sleeping in.
It's also none of the receptionist's business why you need a late appointment. If you're standing in front of her, you can just pretend she never said it and just say, "So. 2:00 on Tuesday?" If you feel like not being an asshole like I would be, tell her you work nights and move on.
posted by howrobotsaremade at 7:08 PM on January 24, 2010 [7 favorites]
Them: I did all my daily chores before you even got out of bed!
You: And I did all my daily chores after you went to bed. What's the difference?
posted by chrisamiller at 7:09 PM on January 24, 2010 [12 favorites]
You: And I did all my daily chores after you went to bed. What's the difference?
posted by chrisamiller at 7:09 PM on January 24, 2010 [12 favorites]
I'm going to be the asshole here and say that while your work schedule is a legit reason for you and the above answers are fine, nobody "needs" to be a night owl. When it comes time to choose the job or shift you're on, you choose to work swings, right? That's what's annoying your friends, most likely.
My wife worked late in the theater for years before she met me, and now she's convinced that she just can't change to a normal-people schedule. That's fine with me that she likes to be a night owl, but the premise of not having a choice kind of secretly annoys me. When I get swing or grave shift for a while, it takes a couple of days to adjust, but then I'm fine. How's your body know if the sun's out or not? It doesn't.
So while expecting you to be up for a 9am shopping trip while working swing shift isn't reasonable, what they may really be saying to you is "man, I wish you would work days once in a while so we could hang out."
posted by ctmf at 7:11 PM on January 24, 2010
My wife worked late in the theater for years before she met me, and now she's convinced that she just can't change to a normal-people schedule. That's fine with me that she likes to be a night owl, but the premise of not having a choice kind of secretly annoys me. When I get swing or grave shift for a while, it takes a couple of days to adjust, but then I'm fine. How's your body know if the sun's out or not? It doesn't.
So while expecting you to be up for a 9am shopping trip while working swing shift isn't reasonable, what they may really be saying to you is "man, I wish you would work days once in a while so we could hang out."
posted by ctmf at 7:11 PM on January 24, 2010
ctmf, you're able to adjust; some people aren't, the same way that some people shave with an electric razor and claim that it fixed their razor burn problems while other people shave with a blade and claim that it fixed their razor burn problems.
When I was in college, I gravitated toward a 3 PM–6 AM schedule on any substantive break. Now I'm employed and must get up at 5:45 AM... but I certainly feel much worse than I did when I was able to be awake at night. I never have any energy; it feels as if I should be asleep, then at 10 when I should be going to bed, I'm getting my energy burst.
This is after four years.
posted by sonic meat machine at 7:25 PM on January 24, 2010 [8 favorites]
When I was in college, I gravitated toward a 3 PM–6 AM schedule on any substantive break. Now I'm employed and must get up at 5:45 AM... but I certainly feel much worse than I did when I was able to be awake at night. I never have any energy; it feels as if I should be asleep, then at 10 when I should be going to bed, I'm getting my energy burst.
This is after four years.
posted by sonic meat machine at 7:25 PM on January 24, 2010 [8 favorites]
My wife worked late in the theater for years before she met me, and now she's convinced that she just can't change to a normal-people schedule. That's fine with me that she likes to be a night owl, but the premise of not having a choice kind of secretly annoys me.
But that's because you have always been a morning person. I imagine it annoys your wife that you get up very early even on weekends, right?
As you can see from ctmf's answer, some really do associate a virtue with getting up early; the whole "early to bed, early to rise/ makes a man healthy, wealthy and wise" attitude.
But there's also people like me. I would love your schedule. I used to work until midnight when I was in college and loved that. I'd come home, watch Letterman, exercise, and not go to bed until 2.
When I taught, then got married, and especially when we had kids and they had to get to school early, I had to change to the early morning deal. I can see benefits to both, but I personally really feel better when I stay up late and get up late than when I do the early bird thing.
I would deal with all the nay-sayers by just telling them, "I work nights." That's really enough, because anyone like me would understand, and those that like having their early mornings should feel bad for you because, in their opinion, you are missing out. As for friends that want to do things with you, suggest one o'clock as a compromise. Lunch for them, dinner for you.
posted by misha at 7:27 PM on January 24, 2010
But that's because you have always been a morning person. I imagine it annoys your wife that you get up very early even on weekends, right?
As you can see from ctmf's answer, some really do associate a virtue with getting up early; the whole "early to bed, early to rise/ makes a man healthy, wealthy and wise" attitude.
But there's also people like me. I would love your schedule. I used to work until midnight when I was in college and loved that. I'd come home, watch Letterman, exercise, and not go to bed until 2.
When I taught, then got married, and especially when we had kids and they had to get to school early, I had to change to the early morning deal. I can see benefits to both, but I personally really feel better when I stay up late and get up late than when I do the early bird thing.
I would deal with all the nay-sayers by just telling them, "I work nights." That's really enough, because anyone like me would understand, and those that like having their early mornings should feel bad for you because, in their opinion, you are missing out. As for friends that want to do things with you, suggest one o'clock as a compromise. Lunch for them, dinner for you.
posted by misha at 7:27 PM on January 24, 2010
I'm going to be the asshole here and say that while your work schedule is a legit reason for you and the above answers are fine, nobody "needs" to be a night owl.
Sez you. Some people's internal clocks are in fact hardwired that way. Others have to work night jobs because of their particular skill set or to maximize their income, regardless of their circadian rhythms. My boyfriend, for example, has tended bar for 25 years to support his acting career. Sure, he could get a daytime shift somewhere and be able to spend every night and weekend with me, but A) he couldn't go to auditions, and B) he'd be broke -- thus rendering it pointless to bartend in the first place. So if he's going to continue to act and pay the rent consistently when he's between gigs, he has to work till 3 am at least 2 or 3 nights a week.
Yeah, it's hard on us as a couple (he's actually working his fourth night shift this week tonight), and yeah, I sometimes wish we had all our off-time together. But that's beside the point, because he does, in fact, need to be a night owl, and suggesting that he has an infinite number of other options simply because your life and options are different is, indeed, a little assholish.
posted by scody at 7:27 PM on January 24, 2010 [14 favorites]
Sez you. Some people's internal clocks are in fact hardwired that way. Others have to work night jobs because of their particular skill set or to maximize their income, regardless of their circadian rhythms. My boyfriend, for example, has tended bar for 25 years to support his acting career. Sure, he could get a daytime shift somewhere and be able to spend every night and weekend with me, but A) he couldn't go to auditions, and B) he'd be broke -- thus rendering it pointless to bartend in the first place. So if he's going to continue to act and pay the rent consistently when he's between gigs, he has to work till 3 am at least 2 or 3 nights a week.
Yeah, it's hard on us as a couple (he's actually working his fourth night shift this week tonight), and yeah, I sometimes wish we had all our off-time together. But that's beside the point, because he does, in fact, need to be a night owl, and suggesting that he has an infinite number of other options simply because your life and options are different is, indeed, a little assholish.
posted by scody at 7:27 PM on January 24, 2010 [14 favorites]
"I did all my daily chores before you even got out of bed."
"Oh, I think you're lazy for going to bed before 3AM, too. Don't you have stuff to do?"
posted by cmiller at 7:27 PM on January 24, 2010 [2 favorites]
"Oh, I think you're lazy for going to bed before 3AM, too. Don't you have stuff to do?"
posted by cmiller at 7:27 PM on January 24, 2010 [2 favorites]
Them: Must be nice to sleep all day.
You: Must be nice to be able to enjoy the daylight.
OR
Them: Must be nice to sleep all day.
You: Why yes, it is. [said utterly sincerely, no matter how sarcastic their tone of voice was]
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 7:27 PM on January 24, 2010
You: Must be nice to be able to enjoy the daylight.
OR
Them: Must be nice to sleep all day.
You: Why yes, it is. [said utterly sincerely, no matter how sarcastic their tone of voice was]
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 7:27 PM on January 24, 2010
Call your early-bird buddies and/or relatives at midnight or 1 a.m. and say, "Hey, I got off work just a little while ago. Let's go shopping! (Or Let's go get a pizza and beer!) This is like MY 6 p.m."
posted by Smalltown Girl at 7:28 PM on January 24, 2010 [8 favorites]
posted by Smalltown Girl at 7:28 PM on January 24, 2010 [8 favorites]
Some people think I need to start getting up at 8am "like the rest of the world" but that sort of schedule has just never made me happy.
See, if I knew that you worked 3 to 11 pm, I would never expect you to wake up at 8 am, so I'm wondering if people know your schedule (for e.g. your friend, and I'm assuming friends are something you can your working and sleeping schedule to)? i.e. if people say, "Wanna meet for brunch/lunch" do you say, "I can't, I wake up at 1 pm" therefore inviting the "you must be lazy" comments? The way conversations go depends a lot of what things you tell people. You can say, "I can't do brunch/lunch that day, can we get something to eat, say around 3 pm [or whatever]?" And so the conversation should go about how that can happen.
As for the receptionist, in response you can say, "Is a late appointment a problem?" She should say no, but if not, you can just say, "I work nights, so late afternoon to you is like morning for me."
posted by foxjacket at 7:28 PM on January 24, 2010
See, if I knew that you worked 3 to 11 pm, I would never expect you to wake up at 8 am, so I'm wondering if people know your schedule (for e.g. your friend, and I'm assuming friends are something you can your working and sleeping schedule to)? i.e. if people say, "Wanna meet for brunch/lunch" do you say, "I can't, I wake up at 1 pm" therefore inviting the "you must be lazy" comments? The way conversations go depends a lot of what things you tell people. You can say, "I can't do brunch/lunch that day, can we get something to eat, say around 3 pm [or whatever]?" And so the conversation should go about how that can happen.
As for the receptionist, in response you can say, "Is a late appointment a problem?" She should say no, but if not, you can just say, "I work nights, so late afternoon to you is like morning for me."
posted by foxjacket at 7:28 PM on January 24, 2010
I'd just like to point out that ctmf is very, very wrong. Of COURSE your body knows whether the sun's out or not, it's called vision. And it works whether your eyes are open or closed, and even for most blind people (depending on what's causing the blindness). And, in addition, whether you're and early bird or a night owl is partially dependent on genes... I pulled up this article from a really quick google search, but there's lots of other evidence too. People who are forced to have their sleep/wake cycles different from what is "natural" for them can have lots of problems, including always being tired and unhappy.
posted by brainmouse at 7:33 PM on January 24, 2010 [9 favorites]
posted by brainmouse at 7:33 PM on January 24, 2010 [9 favorites]
Circadian rhythm sleep disorder is a recognized condition. Many people really can't adjust to "normal" sleeping patterns, and tire themselves out trying to do so. If you can organize your life to be productive and happy no matter what time you sleep, then your friends should be happy for you. Changing to suit them would only make you less happy and possibly less healthy.
posted by Sova at 7:33 PM on January 24, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Sova at 7:33 PM on January 24, 2010 [1 favorite]
I recommend a variation on:
Act like an adult and demand to be treated like one.
Best of luck.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 7:33 PM on January 24, 2010 [2 favorites]
"I work and live on a different schedule from the rest of the you, and I'm fine with it.You're not going to get them to change their minds, nor understand your position. Don't try.
"I don't particularly appreciate your judgmental attitude, sarcasm, or criticism about my sleep schedule, and will not put up with it.
"Bring it up again, and we stop associating. You're entitled to your opinions, but if you continue disrespecting me after I've informed you that you need to stop, I'm walking out/hanging up. Persist in it, and I'm cutting you out of my life."
Act like an adult and demand to be treated like one.
Best of luck.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 7:33 PM on January 24, 2010 [2 favorites]
ctmf, plenty of sleep specialists would disagree with pretty much everything you just said. Here's just a basic link: circadian rhythm sleep disorder. There are several other links to specific disorders within that article. People with those disorders can force themselves to stay awake at societally-accepted hours just like most people can force themselves to stay awake at other hours, but they're more miserable at their jobs than they have to be. These kinds of people seek out night-shift jobs.
I am largely nocturnal; I tend to sleep between 10AM and 6PM. I have personally never been tired at work as long as I'm not working early morning or afternoon, even though with any job I've ever had I wake up right before going to work. Furthermore, if I force myself to stay awake for 24 hours, once it's nighttime again I am not sleepy anymore. I'm not doing anything stimulating during that time either, I'm just reading or wandering around the apartment. My father was the same way except worst; it was nearly impossible for him to fall asleep at night. The only other person I know personally who has the same problem is a friend of mine, and she is trying to get a nighttime job right now.
The very idea that your body doesn't have its own "clock" of sorts is just kind of absurd; it's observed in countless places in nature and there is a whole branch of treatment devoted to it, so it's not like everyone is just prattling on and spending money studying nothing. Your being secretly annoyed is entirely of your own doing and has no other basis than the misguided idea that other people are exactly like you. I don't mean that in a snarky way; I mean that it must suck being secretly annoyed all the time so maybe reading something about it will alleviate the annoyance. Generally speaking if you feel like other people are, I dunno, somehow lying or fooling themselves about some aspect of their biology, it's a good sign that you might need to step back and look something up about it. There are fewer negative thoughts and fights to be had when you make a good faith assumption about what others tell you about themselves. Every now and then someone might be lying or fooling themselves, sure, but what exactly do you have to gain by assuming that? It shouldn't be that big of a threat to you that it annoys you; it has nothing to do with you.
Anyway, usually when people try to give me crap about my sleep schedule I ask them why it matters when something gets done within a 24 hour period as long as it gets done. Usually people just bluster or say something inane. If they're really rude I point out that I got X, Y, and Z done while they were just being soooo lazy and sleeping. Having an actual night shift job should be a good excuse, I would think; what do they say when you say that you work the night shift? I realize that might not be a satisfactory answer for someone like your parents, but a receptionist shouldn't be giving you crap about it to begin with and that sort of answer ought to shut most people up.
Your friend who makes comments about getting up at 9AM to go shopping doesn't sound like a very good friend. Honestly, I would quit hanging out with someone like that. My friends and I are all sensitive to each other's work and preferred sleep cycles and do our best to accommodate it since we care about each other; if someone stays up late or wakes up late for us -- and we do -- we're very grateful, we don't act like we're entitled to it.
posted by Nattie at 7:34 PM on January 24, 2010 [8 favorites]
I am largely nocturnal; I tend to sleep between 10AM and 6PM. I have personally never been tired at work as long as I'm not working early morning or afternoon, even though with any job I've ever had I wake up right before going to work. Furthermore, if I force myself to stay awake for 24 hours, once it's nighttime again I am not sleepy anymore. I'm not doing anything stimulating during that time either, I'm just reading or wandering around the apartment. My father was the same way except worst; it was nearly impossible for him to fall asleep at night. The only other person I know personally who has the same problem is a friend of mine, and she is trying to get a nighttime job right now.
The very idea that your body doesn't have its own "clock" of sorts is just kind of absurd; it's observed in countless places in nature and there is a whole branch of treatment devoted to it, so it's not like everyone is just prattling on and spending money studying nothing. Your being secretly annoyed is entirely of your own doing and has no other basis than the misguided idea that other people are exactly like you. I don't mean that in a snarky way; I mean that it must suck being secretly annoyed all the time so maybe reading something about it will alleviate the annoyance. Generally speaking if you feel like other people are, I dunno, somehow lying or fooling themselves about some aspect of their biology, it's a good sign that you might need to step back and look something up about it. There are fewer negative thoughts and fights to be had when you make a good faith assumption about what others tell you about themselves. Every now and then someone might be lying or fooling themselves, sure, but what exactly do you have to gain by assuming that? It shouldn't be that big of a threat to you that it annoys you; it has nothing to do with you.
Anyway, usually when people try to give me crap about my sleep schedule I ask them why it matters when something gets done within a 24 hour period as long as it gets done. Usually people just bluster or say something inane. If they're really rude I point out that I got X, Y, and Z done while they were just being soooo lazy and sleeping. Having an actual night shift job should be a good excuse, I would think; what do they say when you say that you work the night shift? I realize that might not be a satisfactory answer for someone like your parents, but a receptionist shouldn't be giving you crap about it to begin with and that sort of answer ought to shut most people up.
Your friend who makes comments about getting up at 9AM to go shopping doesn't sound like a very good friend. Honestly, I would quit hanging out with someone like that. My friends and I are all sensitive to each other's work and preferred sleep cycles and do our best to accommodate it since we care about each other; if someone stays up late or wakes up late for us -- and we do -- we're very grateful, we don't act like we're entitled to it.
posted by Nattie at 7:34 PM on January 24, 2010 [8 favorites]
"Because I'm working while you're sleeping."
posted by ishotjr at 7:35 PM on January 24, 2010 [4 favorites]
posted by ishotjr at 7:35 PM on January 24, 2010 [4 favorites]
Make a complaint to the receptionist's supervisor, as well as to the supervisor of any other customer service person who gives you a hard time about this. It's none of their damn business why a patient/client can't take an early appointment, whether the reason is "because of my work schedule" or "because I feel like it."
With friends and family, take a hard line: "You know my work schedule. Those comments are hurtful and insulting. They make me not want to spend time with you."
posted by Meg_Murry at 7:46 PM on January 24, 2010
With friends and family, take a hard line: "You know my work schedule. Those comments are hurtful and insulting. They make me not want to spend time with you."
posted by Meg_Murry at 7:46 PM on January 24, 2010
while I *can* adjust to a daytime schedule, my preference is night time. I used to have a 3 to 11 schedule and also slept until afternoon.
If anyone gave me grief about it, I simply did as other posters before me have suggested - pointed out that I worked nights and needed to sleep sometime . 5am to 1pm just happened to work for me.
posted by patheral at 7:50 PM on January 24, 2010
If anyone gave me grief about it, I simply did as other posters before me have suggested - pointed out that I worked nights and needed to sleep sometime . 5am to 1pm just happened to work for me.
posted by patheral at 7:50 PM on January 24, 2010
I use to work the graveyard shift 11am-7pm, did it for 3 years and never had the problem you're having. If anything people either respected or admired it, while commenting they could never do it. Are you sure it's about the time shift and not something else?
Also, if you're working 3am-11pm, that still leaves lots of time to get up by 8am or 9am. That fact that you get up at 1pm is your business, but you have to see it as others do, especially a friend who wants to go shopping with you at 9am or 10am. Why can't you get up a bit earlier every now and then to hang our with a friend or make an appointment? You have to realize that most of the world doesn't run on the same schedule you do (It took forever for friends not to call me in the morning). That's fine, that's your choice, but you have to come to terms with the fact that even by the simplest standard, it's an odd choice compared to what 95% of the world is doing. Either embrace that or continue to allow yourself to be agitated, your choice.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:05 PM on January 24, 2010
Also, if you're working 3am-11pm, that still leaves lots of time to get up by 8am or 9am. That fact that you get up at 1pm is your business, but you have to see it as others do, especially a friend who wants to go shopping with you at 9am or 10am. Why can't you get up a bit earlier every now and then to hang our with a friend or make an appointment? You have to realize that most of the world doesn't run on the same schedule you do (It took forever for friends not to call me in the morning). That's fine, that's your choice, but you have to come to terms with the fact that even by the simplest standard, it's an odd choice compared to what 95% of the world is doing. Either embrace that or continue to allow yourself to be agitated, your choice.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:05 PM on January 24, 2010
Like you, I prefer night shifts and have trouble getting up and being at a normal job at 9ish every day (I manage, though sometimes, barely). However, I have a friend with a very open schedule, and when we make plans for, say, noon, she'll say stuff like "I'll have to set my alarm! I've been getting up at 1 every day!" Which drives me nuts and, were I a more snide person, I could imagine getting to the point where I'd make comments right back. Which is to say, just be sure that you're not bragging about it--or phrasing things in a way that can be taken as bragging. As someone who would love to get up at 1 every day, it's easy for me to interpret comments that way.
For people like the receptionist at the doctor's office, what's wrong with saying "I work nights"? It's nothing to be ashamed of, and illustrates that, yes, you do have a healthy work ethic.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:12 PM on January 24, 2010 [2 favorites]
For people like the receptionist at the doctor's office, what's wrong with saying "I work nights"? It's nothing to be ashamed of, and illustrates that, yes, you do have a healthy work ethic.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:12 PM on January 24, 2010 [2 favorites]
I had a job once where it was competitive to be on graveyard since it paid about 20% more, and the general vibe was supposedly more mellow. I thought about applying for it as opposed to the day-shift and strangely my sister's best friend heard about it and said something to the effect of "Only alcoholics work night shifts."
I was pretty floored, and told her as much. Considering how little we made for starters, working graveyard seemed like a perfectly legitimate way of getting ahead a little bit.
But you're definitely on to something. People have some strange ideas about working night-shifts. Not sure how they get this to jibe with their notions of ER doctors, firemen, and policemen who routinely have to work in the dead of night. Hell, that's why we admire them. So lots of cognitive dissonance going around on this issue.
posted by bardic at 8:13 PM on January 24, 2010 [4 favorites]
I was pretty floored, and told her as much. Considering how little we made for starters, working graveyard seemed like a perfectly legitimate way of getting ahead a little bit.
But you're definitely on to something. People have some strange ideas about working night-shifts. Not sure how they get this to jibe with their notions of ER doctors, firemen, and policemen who routinely have to work in the dead of night. Hell, that's why we admire them. So lots of cognitive dissonance going around on this issue.
posted by bardic at 8:13 PM on January 24, 2010 [4 favorites]
Not sure how they get this to jibe with their notions of ER doctors, firemen, and policemen who routinely have to work in the dead of night.
Exactly. Not to mention more mundane all-night jobs like telephone operators, convenience store clerks, and office cleaners. But I guess every ambulance driver, janitor, and ER nurse out there will be thrilled to know that they don't actually have to work in the middle of the night anymore ! Just as we will all be thrilled with hospitals, firehouses, and gas stations shutting down at 6:00 pm! I mean, honestly -- expecting to get treated for a heart attack at midnight? If you have to have a heart attack, you should choose to have it during business hours.
posted by scody at 8:25 PM on January 24, 2010 [2 favorites]
Exactly. Not to mention more mundane all-night jobs like telephone operators, convenience store clerks, and office cleaners. But I guess every ambulance driver, janitor, and ER nurse out there will be thrilled to know that they don't actually have to work in the middle of the night anymore ! Just as we will all be thrilled with hospitals, firehouses, and gas stations shutting down at 6:00 pm! I mean, honestly -- expecting to get treated for a heart attack at midnight? If you have to have a heart attack, you should choose to have it during business hours.
posted by scody at 8:25 PM on January 24, 2010 [2 favorites]
I'd just like to point out that ctmf is very, very wrong.
Maybe so, but I doubt I'm the only one that thinks that. (And I'm not wedded to the idea, it's just a gut feel. Since *I* can adjust, it's hard for me not to imagine that everyone who can't do it just doesn't want to bad enough. Intellectually, I'm open to being wrong, but it's hard to shake the prejudice.)
If "I work nights" isn't enough for people, then they must think they are a special snowflake to you that you would forgo a night's sleep just to hang out with them. I'd just counter-offer, "Hey how about coming by when I get off work? Say, about midnight."
posted by ctmf at 8:26 PM on January 24, 2010
Maybe so, but I doubt I'm the only one that thinks that. (And I'm not wedded to the idea, it's just a gut feel. Since *I* can adjust, it's hard for me not to imagine that everyone who can't do it just doesn't want to bad enough. Intellectually, I'm open to being wrong, but it's hard to shake the prejudice.)
If "I work nights" isn't enough for people, then they must think they are a special snowflake to you that you would forgo a night's sleep just to hang out with them. I'd just counter-offer, "Hey how about coming by when I get off work? Say, about midnight."
posted by ctmf at 8:26 PM on January 24, 2010
jenfullmoon and ishotjr have the best answers as to why people say that stuff to you. You’ve found a way to be sleeping while a lot of people are working and that drives some people insane because they feel powerless to make a similar choice to yours. They don’t like your pointing out how they are a “slave” to conformity while you are not. Sometimes people attach virtue to their actions when they do things they don’t want to do.
posted by ads at 8:36 PM on January 24, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by ads at 8:36 PM on January 24, 2010 [2 favorites]
Intellectually, I'm open to being wrong, but it's hard to shake the prejudice
Well, try, because it really is nothing more than a prejudice, and to someone on the receiving end it's just as nasty and meaningless as all the other prejudices are. Hell, lots of racists don't have anything more than "gut feel" to base their insights about their target race on, and they feel better knowing they can doubt they're alone, too.
OP: This is actually really tricky, depending on the friends. I mean, if they're like ctmf, they're not going to believe you can't work till 11, be in bed at 12 and up fresh and early for a 9am day. It's moronic, but even if you explain how a shifted day works, they're going to take it personally.
There are two resolutions in that case, I've found: one is that they accept you can't make 9am, but keep scheduling things for that time and just don't invite you, so you lose touch. The other is that you pretend you can do 9am, just not *that* 9am, but hey, you can do 2pm that day. That doesn't work for them, you lose touch.
There's a reason nurses marry cops and journalists all have other journalists as friends. Life is so much better when you're not dragging yourself out of bed as if it was an early morning flight just to meet friends.
Family is a different matter: them you can be far blunter with.
Oh, and if you suspect it's envy that's driving some of the people, have a pop at their lacklustre imaginations. Sleeping in the daytime doesn't mean you're partying all night as they imagine, it just means you're fighting the tide, all the time.
Next person that says to you "must be great sleeping all day, huh?", just reply, "oh yeah, I love living in a world where a card from the post office saying 'collect your parcel 0745-1230' is acceptable, where every store I visit is 'just closing', where I have to set aside two-day blocks just for a doctor's appointment or a haircut, where no matter where you go or what you do you are fighting the tide of humanity. It's fucking great, because I get to stay in bed, trying to block out the noise of a wide-awake world, while you drive to work. Amazing life. Every day I wake up I have to hit the ground running just to try and catch the setting of the sun and the closing of the gates, and you think it must be great? Think again: at least you can have a lie in on Saturday. If I lie in on Saturday, it's Sunday."
(I've done this before, btw, and the results are usually pretty good. The problem is that most people are a bit nocturnal in late puberty/student years, so they wistfully picture those carefree days when they think of "getting up at 1". In fact, as you know, unless you have a mommy or a personal assistant, being nocturnal is not much more than a pain in the ass. Once they get that, they quit the bullshit.)
and at least count your blessings that you don't live in the UK, where society shuts down, solid, at 5pm. The idea that anyone would choose an empty, shuttered world to try and live their daily life in? Jesus.
posted by bonaldi at 9:07 PM on January 24, 2010 [3 favorites]
Well, try, because it really is nothing more than a prejudice, and to someone on the receiving end it's just as nasty and meaningless as all the other prejudices are. Hell, lots of racists don't have anything more than "gut feel" to base their insights about their target race on, and they feel better knowing they can doubt they're alone, too.
OP: This is actually really tricky, depending on the friends. I mean, if they're like ctmf, they're not going to believe you can't work till 11, be in bed at 12 and up fresh and early for a 9am day. It's moronic, but even if you explain how a shifted day works, they're going to take it personally.
There are two resolutions in that case, I've found: one is that they accept you can't make 9am, but keep scheduling things for that time and just don't invite you, so you lose touch. The other is that you pretend you can do 9am, just not *that* 9am, but hey, you can do 2pm that day. That doesn't work for them, you lose touch.
There's a reason nurses marry cops and journalists all have other journalists as friends. Life is so much better when you're not dragging yourself out of bed as if it was an early morning flight just to meet friends.
Family is a different matter: them you can be far blunter with.
Oh, and if you suspect it's envy that's driving some of the people, have a pop at their lacklustre imaginations. Sleeping in the daytime doesn't mean you're partying all night as they imagine, it just means you're fighting the tide, all the time.
Next person that says to you "must be great sleeping all day, huh?", just reply, "oh yeah, I love living in a world where a card from the post office saying 'collect your parcel 0745-1230' is acceptable, where every store I visit is 'just closing', where I have to set aside two-day blocks just for a doctor's appointment or a haircut, where no matter where you go or what you do you are fighting the tide of humanity. It's fucking great, because I get to stay in bed, trying to block out the noise of a wide-awake world, while you drive to work. Amazing life. Every day I wake up I have to hit the ground running just to try and catch the setting of the sun and the closing of the gates, and you think it must be great? Think again: at least you can have a lie in on Saturday. If I lie in on Saturday, it's Sunday."
(I've done this before, btw, and the results are usually pretty good. The problem is that most people are a bit nocturnal in late puberty/student years, so they wistfully picture those carefree days when they think of "getting up at 1". In fact, as you know, unless you have a mommy or a personal assistant, being nocturnal is not much more than a pain in the ass. Once they get that, they quit the bullshit.)
and at least count your blessings that you don't live in the UK, where society shuts down, solid, at 5pm. The idea that anyone would choose an empty, shuttered world to try and live their daily life in? Jesus.
posted by bonaldi at 9:07 PM on January 24, 2010 [3 favorites]
ads (and jenfullmoon and ishotjr) are right for some people, but for others I think geek anachronism is also right. To recap: some are jealous, others think there is a certain virtue to being an early-riser. The saying "the early bird gets the worm" didn't come from nowhere.
People who are entrenched in their idea that you're lazy or wicked because you're nocturnal are, IMO, unlikely to change their behavior when confronted. Certainly you shouldn't need to take abuse from people in customer service, though. People like the receptionist should be either politely dealt with or reported to their supervisor as the situation warrants.
posted by asciident at 9:10 PM on January 24, 2010
People who are entrenched in their idea that you're lazy or wicked because you're nocturnal are, IMO, unlikely to change their behavior when confronted. Certainly you shouldn't need to take abuse from people in customer service, though. People like the receptionist should be either politely dealt with or reported to their supervisor as the situation warrants.
posted by asciident at 9:10 PM on January 24, 2010
Oh, missed this gem: Also, if you're working 3am-11pm, that still leaves lots of time to get up by 8am or 9am.
Lots of time, huh? Say an hour to get home, get changed, get some food. Another hour or two to unwind from a hectic shift ... Oh, hello, it's 2am. Only six hours of sleep left before meeting Brandon Blatcher, better race to bed.
Unless those same friends think that expecting them to go to bed immediately after work, so they can get up at 3am to come meet you, is reasonable, the request is crap. As I've said, for the majority of cases this isn't something you choose, it's something you fight and battle all your life.
But, hey, it's easy for you to move your clock, it must be a choice on Anon's part too, right? Do you run tauntingly past people in wheelchairs too?
posted by bonaldi at 9:23 PM on January 24, 2010 [4 favorites]
Lots of time, huh? Say an hour to get home, get changed, get some food. Another hour or two to unwind from a hectic shift ... Oh, hello, it's 2am. Only six hours of sleep left before meeting Brandon Blatcher, better race to bed.
Unless those same friends think that expecting them to go to bed immediately after work, so they can get up at 3am to come meet you, is reasonable, the request is crap. As I've said, for the majority of cases this isn't something you choose, it's something you fight and battle all your life.
But, hey, it's easy for you to move your clock, it must be a choice on Anon's part too, right? Do you run tauntingly past people in wheelchairs too?
posted by bonaldi at 9:23 PM on January 24, 2010 [4 favorites]
Also, if you're working 3am-11pm, that still leaves lots of time to get up by 8am or 9am.
By that same token, if you're working 9-5, that still leaves lots to time for you to get up by 2am to meet up for a meal with your friend working the night shift.
posted by scody at 9:33 PM on January 24, 2010 [15 favorites]
By that same token, if you're working 9-5, that still leaves lots to time for you to get up by 2am to meet up for a meal with your friend working the night shift.
posted by scody at 9:33 PM on January 24, 2010 [15 favorites]
Hell, lots of racists
Easy, now. I'm not suggesting the OP is a whiner and should be able to do things all hours of the day regardless of work schedule. Clearly, people who work nights need to sleep at different times than I do, and "I work nights" is plenty good enough for me. I've worked nights, and I respect those who do just as much as those who work days. I might say something like "oh, must be nice to sleep all day, hurr hurr" just as a small talk trope at that point, or maybe not. (Because, like you haven't heard that a thousand times before, right? I'm usually sensitive to that, but sometimes not.) I wouldn't have any hard feelings about that.
My gut suspicion that's hard for me to change (and which I guess makes me as good as a racist) is that what shift people like to work in the first place is just a preference, with rationalization after the fact. You like to work nights? Cool. I like days. That's good enough for me. It's when you go a step farther and say you can *only* work nights that I start to feel like a lot of the time that is self-fulfilling and entirely mental. Like people who "can't" ever get to appointments on time or people who "can't" wake up to an alarm clock.
Which is all beside the point and not useful to the OP. What might be useful is to treat all those people like they're making the oh-so-witty joke, hurr hurr. Just humor them for a moment, it doesn't necessarily mean they literally think you sleep all day. After all, you can't change everyone else, you can only change your reaction to everyone else.
posted by ctmf at 9:44 PM on January 24, 2010
Easy, now. I'm not suggesting the OP is a whiner and should be able to do things all hours of the day regardless of work schedule. Clearly, people who work nights need to sleep at different times than I do, and "I work nights" is plenty good enough for me. I've worked nights, and I respect those who do just as much as those who work days. I might say something like "oh, must be nice to sleep all day, hurr hurr" just as a small talk trope at that point, or maybe not. (Because, like you haven't heard that a thousand times before, right? I'm usually sensitive to that, but sometimes not.) I wouldn't have any hard feelings about that.
My gut suspicion that's hard for me to change (and which I guess makes me as good as a racist) is that what shift people like to work in the first place is just a preference, with rationalization after the fact. You like to work nights? Cool. I like days. That's good enough for me. It's when you go a step farther and say you can *only* work nights that I start to feel like a lot of the time that is self-fulfilling and entirely mental. Like people who "can't" ever get to appointments on time or people who "can't" wake up to an alarm clock.
Which is all beside the point and not useful to the OP. What might be useful is to treat all those people like they're making the oh-so-witty joke, hurr hurr. Just humor them for a moment, it doesn't necessarily mean they literally think you sleep all day. After all, you can't change everyone else, you can only change your reaction to everyone else.
posted by ctmf at 9:44 PM on January 24, 2010
Easy, now. I'm not suggesting the OP is a whiner and should be able to do things all hours of the day regardless of work schedule.
No, but you are suggesting that the OP's preference for nights is some sort of simple and easy preference between two equal things, and the implication there is that they could just as equally choose to work days and have all the attendant problems of night work disappear.
This isn't choosing between chocolate or vanilla ice cream, here. The "preference" for night work is only a preference in as much as working day shift leaves you miserable, tired and ill. Having a preference the other way is hardly surprising. It's as if someone told you about their peanut allergy, and you said "yeah, but I eat Snickers, lots of people eat Snickers, I can accept you having a preference not to eat Snickers, but you saying you can *never* eat Snickers makes me feel like this is some self-fulfilling mental thing".
Think the peanut allergy is wrong, because the peanuts can kill and this is just OP choosing to stay in their kip till lunchtime? Wrong. The effects of fighting your circadian clock are real, they're documented, and they have substantial impacts on your life expectancy. The majority of the work, unsurprisingly, has been done on people with normal sleep patterns who go into graveyard shift, but in the smaller numbers of studies it also holds true for night people forcing themselves to be "day". You fight your clock, you'll have a deeply unhappy body to answer to.
Your "hunches" and your "gut" and your "feelings" are way off base here. Yours are exactly the sort of opinions the OP is facing down. Give them, (and your wife) a break.
posted by bonaldi at 9:59 PM on January 24, 2010 [9 favorites]
No, but you are suggesting that the OP's preference for nights is some sort of simple and easy preference between two equal things, and the implication there is that they could just as equally choose to work days and have all the attendant problems of night work disappear.
This isn't choosing between chocolate or vanilla ice cream, here. The "preference" for night work is only a preference in as much as working day shift leaves you miserable, tired and ill. Having a preference the other way is hardly surprising. It's as if someone told you about their peanut allergy, and you said "yeah, but I eat Snickers, lots of people eat Snickers, I can accept you having a preference not to eat Snickers, but you saying you can *never* eat Snickers makes me feel like this is some self-fulfilling mental thing".
Think the peanut allergy is wrong, because the peanuts can kill and this is just OP choosing to stay in their kip till lunchtime? Wrong. The effects of fighting your circadian clock are real, they're documented, and they have substantial impacts on your life expectancy. The majority of the work, unsurprisingly, has been done on people with normal sleep patterns who go into graveyard shift, but in the smaller numbers of studies it also holds true for night people forcing themselves to be "day". You fight your clock, you'll have a deeply unhappy body to answer to.
Your "hunches" and your "gut" and your "feelings" are way off base here. Yours are exactly the sort of opinions the OP is facing down. Give them, (and your wife) a break.
posted by bonaldi at 9:59 PM on January 24, 2010 [9 favorites]
In the past I've been annoyed at a person who could never meet with me for a class project because she "doesn't get up before noon." But she was just a student being irresponsible and hard to plan with (I'm a nite owl too, but I deal) - not someone working or taking night classes.
If she had said, "I actually work the late shift." I'd totally understand. If people who know this are being jerks, you could go with: "Must be nice to get back from work before midnight!"
posted by Solon and Thanks at 10:58 PM on January 24, 2010
If she had said, "I actually work the late shift." I'd totally understand. If people who know this are being jerks, you could go with: "Must be nice to get back from work before midnight!"
posted by Solon and Thanks at 10:58 PM on January 24, 2010
Oh, wait, I know this: Quit being so concerned about what other people think of your general lifestyle.
posted by filmgeek at 2:19 AM on January 25, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by filmgeek at 2:19 AM on January 25, 2010 [2 favorites]
I remember reading that in any given group of people there will be a few who stay up all night. It seems reasonable to think this was a survival trait for our social species.
I can sorta of adjust to a day schedule, but I have never enjoyed being awake between 5-8, my body wants to be in bed during those times. I have worked varying hours on grave, swing and day shifts. I like being self-employed. If I tired I sleep and if I am awake, I am active. Seems pretty simple.
posted by psycho-alchemy at 3:19 AM on January 25, 2010
I can sorta of adjust to a day schedule, but I have never enjoyed being awake between 5-8, my body wants to be in bed during those times. I have worked varying hours on grave, swing and day shifts. I like being self-employed. If I tired I sleep and if I am awake, I am active. Seems pretty simple.
posted by psycho-alchemy at 3:19 AM on January 25, 2010
Lots of time, huh? Say an hour to get home, get changed, get some food. Another hour or two to unwind from a hectic shift ... Oh, hello, it's 2am. Only six hours of sleep left before meeting Brandon Blatcher, better race to bed.
One night of only six hours of sleep won't kill anyone. Might do'em some good to hang out with friends.
But, hey, it's easy for you to move your clock, it must be a choice on Anon's part too, right?
There is definitely an element of choice in how Anon chooses to spend their time when not working. To pretend otherwise is absurd.
Do you run tauntingly past people in wheelchairs too?
No, I'm too busy wondering why you're being so over the top.
By that same token, if you're working 9-5, that still leaves lots to time for you to get up by 2am to meet up for a meal with your friend working the night shift.
Actually, this would work out well on Friday or Saturday.
The point here is to quit arguing with friends about when to spend time with them and actually make and effort to spend time with them. No, Anon should rearrange his whole life and schedule, but though hours can put you our sync with much of the rest of the world, so making some effort to hang our with people who want to hang out with him doesn't seem a huge deal.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:50 AM on January 25, 2010
One night of only six hours of sleep won't kill anyone. Might do'em some good to hang out with friends.
But, hey, it's easy for you to move your clock, it must be a choice on Anon's part too, right?
There is definitely an element of choice in how Anon chooses to spend their time when not working. To pretend otherwise is absurd.
Do you run tauntingly past people in wheelchairs too?
No, I'm too busy wondering why you're being so over the top.
By that same token, if you're working 9-5, that still leaves lots to time for you to get up by 2am to meet up for a meal with your friend working the night shift.
Actually, this would work out well on Friday or Saturday.
The point here is to quit arguing with friends about when to spend time with them and actually make and effort to spend time with them. No, Anon should rearrange his whole life and schedule, but though hours can put you our sync with much of the rest of the world, so making some effort to hang our with people who want to hang out with him doesn't seem a huge deal.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:50 AM on January 25, 2010
"I work nights"
posted by mattsweaters at 4:00 AM on January 25, 2010
posted by mattsweaters at 4:00 AM on January 25, 2010
"Must be nice to get home at 6PM."
posted by Nameless at 5:54 AM on January 25, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by Nameless at 5:54 AM on January 25, 2010 [2 favorites]
If they're asking you to move your sleep schedule in order to hang out with them, they're not your friend. A lot of morning people bitch if you want to go to dinner at 8 PM instead of 6 PM, and you guys are suggesting that it's fine to expect your friends to completely rearrange themselves to go shopping?
posted by sonic meat machine at 5:59 AM on January 25, 2010 [3 favorites]
posted by sonic meat machine at 5:59 AM on January 25, 2010 [3 favorites]
One night of only six hours of sleep won't kill anyone.
It's not "one night of only six hours of sleep", though. It's one evening of sleep, in normal-sleeper's terms. And it wouldn't be at weekends, either, it'd be mid-week, especially for appointments. I don't think there are many people who could do the bed-at-6pm-up-at-2am with any sort of frequency, especially midweek, and I can't think of any who'd happily do it just to "go shopping".
Actually have a think about what this get-up-at-2am thing would mean for you if it was a regular gig, where you could get a call on Tuesday that you suddenly had to be somewhere at 2am on Wednesday, but on Thursday you'd be expected back at work at 9, then Friday back up at 2am. Even the most robust body clock would be traumatised.
But there'd be no concessions from your friends about the trauma they were inflicting on you. You'd be moving hell and earth to get up to meet them at 3am, and they'd just go "you're late" and then saunter off to shops as if it was a normal occurrence. You honestly think you wouldn't go "these guys need to change their expectations a bit"?
There is definitely an element of choice in how Anon chooses to spend their time when not working. To pretend otherwise is absurd.
Of course there is, but like I said to ctmf, this is hardly a favourite food kind of preference. I occurs to me that it's actually much more like sexuality. Some lucky people are bisexual, most people are broadly het, and some are very gay. But you and he are steamboating in here saying the equivalent of "the vast majority of people are straight, can't you just have sex with a girl sometime? It'll make it much easier for you" and "there's definitely an element of choice in who you have sex with, to pretend otherwise is absurd".
It actually works the whole way, this analogy. Just as some gay people used to try and torture themselves into being straight just so they could fit, I've seen some epically miserable posts on sleep forums from tearful night people who just desperately want to "go daytime" but can't make their bodies co-operate. And the hostility of people like you in an unthinking world is making their lives awful.
No, I'm too busy wondering why you're being so over the top.
Because you're being prejudiced against OP's lifestyle, for no other reason it seems than it was easy for you to behave in a different way, and I have some experience of how unpleasant that can be.
so making some effort to hang our with people who want to hang out with him doesn't seem a huge deal
Sure! But there's a different between "make some effort" and "get up in the middle of the night". And where is the effort from Anon's friends? There's a huge difference between "I'm up at 9am, so you get up at 8 and come meet me" and "I'll get to the shops at 9, why don't you hook up with me about 12, is that doable?" The latter's still not a great deal, and having lunch before breakfast time isn't great, but it's a much more acceptable compromise to try and fit in.
The point here is not for Anon to shut up and put up so he or she can fit better in the rigid world you've outlined. The point is that, effectively, Anon's family and friends hate his lifestyle choices just as much as if they were homophobes and he'd come out as gay. And all Anon's friends are straight as a die. What is needed by the sound of it is some understanding from his current friends, and some new gay friends, not to force himself to act straight to keep some douchebags happy.
posted by bonaldi at 6:00 AM on January 25, 2010 [8 favorites]
It's not "one night of only six hours of sleep", though. It's one evening of sleep, in normal-sleeper's terms. And it wouldn't be at weekends, either, it'd be mid-week, especially for appointments. I don't think there are many people who could do the bed-at-6pm-up-at-2am with any sort of frequency, especially midweek, and I can't think of any who'd happily do it just to "go shopping".
Actually have a think about what this get-up-at-2am thing would mean for you if it was a regular gig, where you could get a call on Tuesday that you suddenly had to be somewhere at 2am on Wednesday, but on Thursday you'd be expected back at work at 9, then Friday back up at 2am. Even the most robust body clock would be traumatised.
But there'd be no concessions from your friends about the trauma they were inflicting on you. You'd be moving hell and earth to get up to meet them at 3am, and they'd just go "you're late" and then saunter off to shops as if it was a normal occurrence. You honestly think you wouldn't go "these guys need to change their expectations a bit"?
There is definitely an element of choice in how Anon chooses to spend their time when not working. To pretend otherwise is absurd.
Of course there is, but like I said to ctmf, this is hardly a favourite food kind of preference. I occurs to me that it's actually much more like sexuality. Some lucky people are bisexual, most people are broadly het, and some are very gay. But you and he are steamboating in here saying the equivalent of "the vast majority of people are straight, can't you just have sex with a girl sometime? It'll make it much easier for you" and "there's definitely an element of choice in who you have sex with, to pretend otherwise is absurd".
It actually works the whole way, this analogy. Just as some gay people used to try and torture themselves into being straight just so they could fit, I've seen some epically miserable posts on sleep forums from tearful night people who just desperately want to "go daytime" but can't make their bodies co-operate. And the hostility of people like you in an unthinking world is making their lives awful.
No, I'm too busy wondering why you're being so over the top.
Because you're being prejudiced against OP's lifestyle, for no other reason it seems than it was easy for you to behave in a different way, and I have some experience of how unpleasant that can be.
so making some effort to hang our with people who want to hang out with him doesn't seem a huge deal
Sure! But there's a different between "make some effort" and "get up in the middle of the night". And where is the effort from Anon's friends? There's a huge difference between "I'm up at 9am, so you get up at 8 and come meet me" and "I'll get to the shops at 9, why don't you hook up with me about 12, is that doable?" The latter's still not a great deal, and having lunch before breakfast time isn't great, but it's a much more acceptable compromise to try and fit in.
The point here is not for Anon to shut up and put up so he or she can fit better in the rigid world you've outlined. The point is that, effectively, Anon's family and friends hate his lifestyle choices just as much as if they were homophobes and he'd come out as gay. And all Anon's friends are straight as a die. What is needed by the sound of it is some understanding from his current friends, and some new gay friends, not to force himself to act straight to keep some douchebags happy.
posted by bonaldi at 6:00 AM on January 25, 2010 [8 favorites]
Decades ago, I worked night shift. I liked it, except when friends would stop by ready to party (that odd 70's verb, doncha know) and I'd be just waking up, drinking coffee. That, I seriously hated. It wasn't like my job was interesting (clerking one place or another). Partying was far more interesting!
But I have a hard time imagining people not dealing with "I work nights". However, I'm from General Motors land, where everyone understands shifts. Once upon a time (In my life time!) those factories that are now gone from Flint used to run 24 hours a day, building cars.
posted by Goofyy at 6:08 AM on January 25, 2010
But I have a hard time imagining people not dealing with "I work nights". However, I'm from General Motors land, where everyone understands shifts. Once upon a time (In my life time!) those factories that are now gone from Flint used to run 24 hours a day, building cars.
posted by Goofyy at 6:08 AM on January 25, 2010
If they're asking you to move your sleep schedule in order to hang out with them, they're not your friend. A lot of morning people bitch if you want to go to dinner at 8 PM instead of 6 PM, and you guys are suggesting that it's fine to expect your friends to completely rearrange themselves to go shopping?
Again, night person here, and I've never had any of my morning person friends or relatives bitch about an 8pm dinner (though they might leave by 10ish, or politely ask that we move it up an hour).
Really, the correct, polite, and most practical answer here is to say something like, "Oh, you know how my work schedule is. I'd be glad to meet you at two, though. Would that work for you?" In other words: be polite and make it clear that you really do want to spend time with your friends.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 6:30 AM on January 25, 2010 [1 favorite]
Again, night person here, and I've never had any of my morning person friends or relatives bitch about an 8pm dinner (though they might leave by 10ish, or politely ask that we move it up an hour).
Really, the correct, polite, and most practical answer here is to say something like, "Oh, you know how my work schedule is. I'd be glad to meet you at two, though. Would that work for you?" In other words: be polite and make it clear that you really do want to spend time with your friends.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 6:30 AM on January 25, 2010 [1 favorite]
Again, night person here, and I've never had any of my morning person friends or relatives bitch about an 8pm dinner (though they might leave by 10ish, or politely ask that we move it up an hour).
Oh, I've definitely had relatives bitch about an 8pm dinner. Anything past 5.30 and some of my relatives are already getting twitchy. Friends? Sure: later dinner eating is much more acceptable.
Ask your friends for a 2pm lunch, though (which is still in late-breakfast territory for me) and the kvetching starts (totally reasonably, in my opinion: they'll be ravenous by that time. I just get up early and end up having pasta for breakfast that day).
As for "correct": well, I think Anon is asking how to deal with a particular friend who replies to lines like your suggested "I'd be glad to meet you at 2" with "can't you just get up at 9am to meet me like a normal person?". That's harder to do. If your friends aren't polite about it, where do you go from there?
posted by bonaldi at 6:59 AM on January 25, 2010
Oh, I've definitely had relatives bitch about an 8pm dinner. Anything past 5.30 and some of my relatives are already getting twitchy. Friends? Sure: later dinner eating is much more acceptable.
Ask your friends for a 2pm lunch, though (which is still in late-breakfast territory for me) and the kvetching starts (totally reasonably, in my opinion: they'll be ravenous by that time. I just get up early and end up having pasta for breakfast that day).
As for "correct": well, I think Anon is asking how to deal with a particular friend who replies to lines like your suggested "I'd be glad to meet you at 2" with "can't you just get up at 9am to meet me like a normal person?". That's harder to do. If your friends aren't polite about it, where do you go from there?
posted by bonaldi at 6:59 AM on January 25, 2010
Ask your friends for a 2pm lunch, though (which is still in late-breakfast territory for me) and the kvetching starts (totally reasonably, in my opinion: they'll be ravenous by that time. I just get up early and end up having pasta for breakfast that day).
I'm not entirely sure why it's so necessary to split hairs over the name of the meal being eaten at a specific time. Your friends probably aren't saying "you need to eat a sandwich right now with me." They're saying "let's get together for a meal." In other words, I doubt they care that it's late-breakfast vs. lunch for you.
As for "correct": well, I think Anon is asking how to deal with a particular friend who replies to lines like your suggested "I'd be glad to meet you at 2" with "can't you just get up at 9am to meet me like a normal person?". That's harder to do. If your friends aren't polite about it, where do you go from there?
Getting nasty back is really unlikely to work, because this is already a loaded issue: this kind of schedule is either something the other party covets, or something they see as particularly unvirtuous. Being kind, considerate, and polite about it might be difficult, but it's much more likely to be effective, too, if your goal is to have your schedule treated as normal and unremarkable. In this case, acting snitty or defensive is more likely to reinforce in their mind that you see yourself as a special snowflake.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:31 AM on January 25, 2010 [2 favorites]
I'm not entirely sure why it's so necessary to split hairs over the name of the meal being eaten at a specific time. Your friends probably aren't saying "you need to eat a sandwich right now with me." They're saying "let's get together for a meal." In other words, I doubt they care that it's late-breakfast vs. lunch for you.
As for "correct": well, I think Anon is asking how to deal with a particular friend who replies to lines like your suggested "I'd be glad to meet you at 2" with "can't you just get up at 9am to meet me like a normal person?". That's harder to do. If your friends aren't polite about it, where do you go from there?
Getting nasty back is really unlikely to work, because this is already a loaded issue: this kind of schedule is either something the other party covets, or something they see as particularly unvirtuous. Being kind, considerate, and polite about it might be difficult, but it's much more likely to be effective, too, if your goal is to have your schedule treated as normal and unremarkable. In this case, acting snitty or defensive is more likely to reinforce in their mind that you see yourself as a special snowflake.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:31 AM on January 25, 2010 [2 favorites]
(I would keep in mind, too, if any of these individuals are older folks, that circadian rhythms shift with age, sometimes making it impossible to stay asleep through the late morning, or, for some, even mid-morning. This might be contributing to difficulties in planning with them, I'm sure, but might be something to keep in mind.)
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:38 AM on January 25, 2010
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:38 AM on January 25, 2010
In other words, I doubt they care that it's late-breakfast vs. lunch for you.
I really meant boozy lunches here, where there is a difference, but you're not wrong.
Being kind, considerate, and polite about it might be difficult, but it's much more likely to be effective
I totally agree: being kind, considerate and polite is pretty much always a good way to address these things. The question is what you do when they fail, as I think they have for Anon.
As for seeing themself as a special snowflake: well, it's where you set boundaries, isn't it? If your friends are expecting that you get up at the equivalent of 4am just to go wandering around the shops with them, is it special pleading to reply "my body doesn't work this way; I understand yours does this easily, but for me to do this I need to be catching a flight or something, not going for a potter around the shops"?
Wanting your friends to respect the boundaries set by your body is no more special pleading than it is when your Grandfather is when he says he can't come over at 9pm because that's his bedtime. It's just that one is socially acceptable, and the other isn't.
posted by bonaldi at 7:51 AM on January 25, 2010
I really meant boozy lunches here, where there is a difference, but you're not wrong.
Being kind, considerate, and polite about it might be difficult, but it's much more likely to be effective
I totally agree: being kind, considerate and polite is pretty much always a good way to address these things. The question is what you do when they fail, as I think they have for Anon.
As for seeing themself as a special snowflake: well, it's where you set boundaries, isn't it? If your friends are expecting that you get up at the equivalent of 4am just to go wandering around the shops with them, is it special pleading to reply "my body doesn't work this way; I understand yours does this easily, but for me to do this I need to be catching a flight or something, not going for a potter around the shops"?
Wanting your friends to respect the boundaries set by your body is no more special pleading than it is when your Grandfather is when he says he can't come over at 9pm because that's his bedtime. It's just that one is socially acceptable, and the other isn't.
posted by bonaldi at 7:51 AM on January 25, 2010
I'm sorta with Brandon Blatcher. I worked 5-11 night shifts three days a week WHILE also working 9-5 day shifts, so it can be done by some people, making your friend's question something of a valid curiosity to me (though it's not fun to be pressured, so their question perhaps would've been better if worded as a wish or desire). If anon can't or doesn't want to ever go to bed early to accommodate someone else's schedule, (just as I would hope some of their friends occasionally stay up late to accommodate theirs), fine, but I don't think the schedule thing needs to be a taboo topic that evokes some of the bristling, chip-on-the-shoulder responses that have been suggested.
Rather than just wishing to never be questioned for choosing to adopt an unconventional schedule and feeling resentful when you are, why not just relax about the reality that you're going to have to explain it over and over again? I don't eat a certain food, it's an allergy. I must've said "yeah, I'm allergic to ___" 200 times last year, and heard "oh, you're missing out!" about 45 times and explained how I discovered I was allergic about 30 times. (I can do that in 10 seconds, if people even care.) Some people act like it's an elitist food snobbery thing on my part. My DAD forgot and tried to serve me the food after twelve years of me knowing and telling him I'm allergic. But whatever. I'm not saying "How can I get people to respect my allergy?" It's all very mundane. It's a fact of your life and you might as well not make it an issue or take it personally that you'll need to explain it over and over. Develop a few one-liners about your schedule and get used to saying them.
And don't hesitate to apologize for the fact that this quirk of yours impacts them. You can say, "I'm sorry I can't come shopping with you" just like I say "I'm sorry I can't share a dish of ____ with you" or "I'm sorry I can't join you skiing, but I work on weekdays." Just because it's a fact of your life doesn't mean you can't communicate about it gracefully and with concern for others.
posted by salvia at 7:51 AM on January 25, 2010 [3 favorites]
Rather than just wishing to never be questioned for choosing to adopt an unconventional schedule and feeling resentful when you are, why not just relax about the reality that you're going to have to explain it over and over again? I don't eat a certain food, it's an allergy. I must've said "yeah, I'm allergic to ___" 200 times last year, and heard "oh, you're missing out!" about 45 times and explained how I discovered I was allergic about 30 times. (I can do that in 10 seconds, if people even care.) Some people act like it's an elitist food snobbery thing on my part. My DAD forgot and tried to serve me the food after twelve years of me knowing and telling him I'm allergic. But whatever. I'm not saying "How can I get people to respect my allergy?" It's all very mundane. It's a fact of your life and you might as well not make it an issue or take it personally that you'll need to explain it over and over. Develop a few one-liners about your schedule and get used to saying them.
And don't hesitate to apologize for the fact that this quirk of yours impacts them. You can say, "I'm sorry I can't come shopping with you" just like I say "I'm sorry I can't share a dish of ____ with you" or "I'm sorry I can't join you skiing, but I work on weekdays." Just because it's a fact of your life doesn't mean you can't communicate about it gracefully and with concern for others.
posted by salvia at 7:51 AM on January 25, 2010 [3 favorites]
(Actually, replace "choosing to adopt" with "having adopted," as the choice issue is not part of what I am wanting to address.)
posted by salvia at 7:58 AM on January 25, 2010
posted by salvia at 7:58 AM on January 25, 2010
If anon can't or doesn't want to ever go to bed early to accommodate someone else's schedule, (just as I would hope some of their friends occasionally stay up late to accommodate theirs), fine,
I don't think Anon does this (and anon if you're reading, I apologise for taking your thread down this route!). I don't think any nightowl does this, to be honest: you can't function in this world if you live a doggedly nocturnal life. But as I said, there is a difference between changing the hours you sleep (reasonable, expected, required) so that you can see your friends, and having a friend complain at you that you won't get up five hours early just so you can go shopping with them. Up really early to go skiing or the like? Sure. To hang out? Really? Friends who insist on that aren't your friends.
The food allergy thing is a great answer, though. I have a close friend with a shellfish allergy and must have heard him explain and justify it about 30 times myself. Your tack is largely what I do with my sleeping when it comes up: explain the deal and apologise for it.
Rather than just wishing to never be questioned for adopting an unconventional schedule and feeling resentful when you are
To be fair, I don't think anybody here is doing this, especially not Anon. The bristling responses are for soi disant "assholes" who need to tell you that it's just a choice, that you're bone idle and should get up early like normal folks. These are the equivalent of the people who tell you the allergy is just food snobbery on your part and you should eat the damn shellfish. If they push you that hard, are you just going to continually apologise, or are you going to reach a point where you firmly say "no", you won't eat their damn shellfish?
If you're a night owl and someone says "must be great sleeping all day", 99 times out of a hundred you laugh with them, admit the advantages, then explain the many more disadvantages. The other time, it's someone who thinks you're a lazy bugger and is being actively hostile. That's a different game.
posted by bonaldi at 8:49 AM on January 25, 2010
I don't think Anon does this (and anon if you're reading, I apologise for taking your thread down this route!). I don't think any nightowl does this, to be honest: you can't function in this world if you live a doggedly nocturnal life. But as I said, there is a difference between changing the hours you sleep (reasonable, expected, required) so that you can see your friends, and having a friend complain at you that you won't get up five hours early just so you can go shopping with them. Up really early to go skiing or the like? Sure. To hang out? Really? Friends who insist on that aren't your friends.
The food allergy thing is a great answer, though. I have a close friend with a shellfish allergy and must have heard him explain and justify it about 30 times myself. Your tack is largely what I do with my sleeping when it comes up: explain the deal and apologise for it.
Rather than just wishing to never be questioned for adopting an unconventional schedule and feeling resentful when you are
To be fair, I don't think anybody here is doing this, especially not Anon. The bristling responses are for soi disant "assholes" who need to tell you that it's just a choice, that you're bone idle and should get up early like normal folks. These are the equivalent of the people who tell you the allergy is just food snobbery on your part and you should eat the damn shellfish. If they push you that hard, are you just going to continually apologise, or are you going to reach a point where you firmly say "no", you won't eat their damn shellfish?
If you're a night owl and someone says "must be great sleeping all day", 99 times out of a hundred you laugh with them, admit the advantages, then explain the many more disadvantages. The other time, it's someone who thinks you're a lazy bugger and is being actively hostile. That's a different game.
posted by bonaldi at 8:49 AM on January 25, 2010
I prefer nights, and am fortunate to have a job that allows me to.
My favourite flippant response to lines like "Must be nice to sleep all day." is:
"I'm not so keen on missing all the daylight, but being able to be productive and get stuff done whilst the idiots* (like you) are asleep is awesome."
[ * substitute 'assholes' or 'morons' as applicable.]
posted by dirm at 9:27 AM on January 25, 2010
My favourite flippant response to lines like "Must be nice to sleep all day." is:
"I'm not so keen on missing all the daylight, but being able to be productive and get stuff done whilst the idiots* (like you) are asleep is awesome."
[ * substitute 'assholes' or 'morons' as applicable.]
posted by dirm at 9:27 AM on January 25, 2010
If your friends aren't polite about it, where do you go from there?
Find new friends who aren't inconsiderate jerks.
posted by chrisamiller at 10:51 AM on January 25, 2010 [1 favorite]
Find new friends who aren't inconsiderate jerks.
posted by chrisamiller at 10:51 AM on January 25, 2010 [1 favorite]
Ok. What you do is your business and "I work nights" should be a sufficient explanation for the scenarios you bring up in your question. But let me give you some persepective on why people are getting annoyed.
My boyfriend is a night owl. If work didnt matter he would go to be at 5 am and get up around 3 pm. He currently works 1pm to 9 pm but still stays up till around 4. Me on the other hand if I could go by my natural schedule, Id be in bed around 2 or 3 and sleep till 10 or 11. I work 8:30 - 5:30, with a one hour commute each way, so I'm getting up at 6:30.
Whenever anything needs to be done such as :
grocery shopping
laundry (we go to a laundromat)
mail shit at the post office
doctors appointments
booking hotels
doing stuff that requires customer service at a bank (loans, mortgages, etc)
talking to a real estate agent
appointments to look at new apartments
and other stuff that is generally done during "normal business hours"
He used to default to me to do all of that. Like he though I had more magical time in my day to do that annoying crap than he did because I was awake for more of those hours. That was totally wrong. On a normal day with no errands, I still generally didnt get home till 7:30 (becaues i work a lot of overtime). That leaves me with 1.5 hours till your typical store front closes at 9. That leaves me with no time for things that close at 5 or 6 (like the apartment office). Yet he just assumed that he couldnt do these things because they didnt sit pretty in his normal hours. After much fighting and arguing over this issue, he finally realized that some mornings before work, he's going to have to get up a little early to do said annoying crap that i used to handle myself all the time after getting out of work.
Basically, 9-5ers are used to doing errands after work, and you should be used to doing errands before work. If you just straight up never do these or depend on someone living with you to do them, well it's annoying.
um /rant
posted by WeekendJen at 11:54 AM on January 25, 2010 [4 favorites]
My boyfriend is a night owl. If work didnt matter he would go to be at 5 am and get up around 3 pm. He currently works 1pm to 9 pm but still stays up till around 4. Me on the other hand if I could go by my natural schedule, Id be in bed around 2 or 3 and sleep till 10 or 11. I work 8:30 - 5:30, with a one hour commute each way, so I'm getting up at 6:30.
Whenever anything needs to be done such as :
grocery shopping
laundry (we go to a laundromat)
mail shit at the post office
doctors appointments
booking hotels
doing stuff that requires customer service at a bank (loans, mortgages, etc)
talking to a real estate agent
appointments to look at new apartments
and other stuff that is generally done during "normal business hours"
He used to default to me to do all of that. Like he though I had more magical time in my day to do that annoying crap than he did because I was awake for more of those hours. That was totally wrong. On a normal day with no errands, I still generally didnt get home till 7:30 (becaues i work a lot of overtime). That leaves me with 1.5 hours till your typical store front closes at 9. That leaves me with no time for things that close at 5 or 6 (like the apartment office). Yet he just assumed that he couldnt do these things because they didnt sit pretty in his normal hours. After much fighting and arguing over this issue, he finally realized that some mornings before work, he's going to have to get up a little early to do said annoying crap that i used to handle myself all the time after getting out of work.
Basically, 9-5ers are used to doing errands after work, and you should be used to doing errands before work. If you just straight up never do these or depend on someone living with you to do them, well it's annoying.
um /rant
posted by WeekendJen at 11:54 AM on January 25, 2010 [4 favorites]
Take it from someone who knows - you have Delayed Sleep Phase Disorder (DSPS).
Visit a sleep clinic & get a diagnosis. There are known treatments that don't involve pharmaceuticals, but if you're more productive this way, then stay this way.
Take it from someone who knows. I recently fought this battle with my job & won (thanks to a doctor's note). I still work as many hours as everyone else, I just take a shorter lunch in exchange for coming in a bit later.
I don't know how old you are, but either seek treatment (it doesn't have to involve pharmaceuticals), or find a job/career that doesn't require you to be in at 9am.
As a teenager my mother thought I was on drugs. As an adult, my friends don't care when I sleep, and since I'm way more productive at night than they are all day- who cares what they think about this trivial aspect of my life? They all work so we hang out on nights and weekends anyway.... just not over brunch.
posted by MesoFilter at 11:39 PM on January 25, 2010 [2 favorites]
Visit a sleep clinic & get a diagnosis. There are known treatments that don't involve pharmaceuticals, but if you're more productive this way, then stay this way.
Take it from someone who knows. I recently fought this battle with my job & won (thanks to a doctor's note). I still work as many hours as everyone else, I just take a shorter lunch in exchange for coming in a bit later.
I don't know how old you are, but either seek treatment (it doesn't have to involve pharmaceuticals), or find a job/career that doesn't require you to be in at 9am.
As a teenager my mother thought I was on drugs. As an adult, my friends don't care when I sleep, and since I'm way more productive at night than they are all day- who cares what they think about this trivial aspect of my life? They all work so we hang out on nights and weekends anyway.... just not over brunch.
posted by MesoFilter at 11:39 PM on January 25, 2010 [2 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
"just because I sleep different hours doesn't mean I'm lazy, and it hurts when you say that and argue with me about getting up earlier."
posted by deadmessenger at 6:50 PM on January 24, 2010 [4 favorites]