How, and whether, to hyphenate and/or apostrophize?
January 13, 2010 7:24 AM Subscribe
Punctuation question: hyphen, plural possessive apostrophe, both, or neither?
I am editing a document with the following phrase (it's a subheading on a bio/profile)
Building bridges to a brighter economic future for the garbage collectors community in Cairo
Bearing in mind that I cannot change the actual words at all, as much as I'd like to, or rearrange words, as much as I'd like to, how do I punctuate "garbage collectors community" (the community of garbage collectors)?
1. garbage-collectors community [I'm leaing slightly toward this one]
2. garbage collectors' community
3. garbage-collectors' community
4. garbage collectors community [as is]
I am editing a document with the following phrase (it's a subheading on a bio/profile)
Building bridges to a brighter economic future for the garbage collectors community in Cairo
Bearing in mind that I cannot change the actual words at all, as much as I'd like to, or rearrange words, as much as I'd like to, how do I punctuate "garbage collectors community" (the community of garbage collectors)?
1. garbage-collectors community [I'm leaing slightly toward this one]
2. garbage collectors' community
3. garbage-collectors' community
4. garbage collectors community [as is]
In my opinion, 'the community of garbage collectors in Cairo' is the phrase of maximum clarity.
I would not call any of the four listed options incorrect [nor would I mind 'garbage collector community' or 'garbage-collector community'], but I would pick number one if I had to pick.
You'll probably get lots of answers on this one, but I don't think you can go horribly wrong here however you decide.
posted by Acari at 7:33 AM on January 13, 2010
I would not call any of the four listed options incorrect [nor would I mind 'garbage collector community' or 'garbage-collector community'], but I would pick number one if I had to pick.
You'll probably get lots of answers on this one, but I don't think you can go horribly wrong here however you decide.
posted by Acari at 7:33 AM on January 13, 2010
"garbage collectors' community"
The possessive apostrophe is non-negotiable; the hyphen probably is.
posted by jckll at 7:34 AM on January 13, 2010 [2 favorites]
The possessive apostrophe is non-negotiable; the hyphen probably is.
posted by jckll at 7:34 AM on January 13, 2010 [2 favorites]
Could you go with "For the community of garbage collectors in cairo"?
I want to say that 2 is the most grammatically correct.
posted by royalsong at 7:34 AM on January 13, 2010
I want to say that 2 is the most grammatically correct.
posted by royalsong at 7:34 AM on January 13, 2010
The meaning probably comes across without the hyphen, but I'd be inclined to use it for clarity. Are we talking about a community that belongs to the garbage collectors? That seems to me to make the most sense, in which case I'd go with 3. Failing that, I might go with "garbage-collector community" where "garbage-collector" functions as a compound adjective that describes the community. I'd say 3 is best, though.
posted by ludwig_van at 7:38 AM on January 13, 2010
posted by ludwig_van at 7:38 AM on January 13, 2010
The possessive apostrophe is non-negotiable
Not in my view.
The community does not belong to the garbage collectors, it comprises them. Thus "garbage collectors community" is just an alternative phrasing for "community of garbage collectors", although the latter reads better to my eye.
posted by Neiltupper at 7:51 AM on January 13, 2010
Not in my view.
The community does not belong to the garbage collectors, it comprises them. Thus "garbage collectors community" is just an alternative phrasing for "community of garbage collectors", although the latter reads better to my eye.
posted by Neiltupper at 7:51 AM on January 13, 2010
This may not be the answer you're looking for, but I've usually seen this sort of phrase constructed with the name of the profession, not the workers' titles. In other words, "garbage-collection community."
posted by The Winsome Parker Lewis at 7:55 AM on January 13, 2010
posted by The Winsome Parker Lewis at 7:55 AM on January 13, 2010
Hmm, on a reread I see that I missed the part about changing words. In that case, I'd go with "garbage-collectors community" (hyphen, no apostrophe).
posted by The Winsome Parker Lewis at 7:57 AM on January 13, 2010
posted by The Winsome Parker Lewis at 7:57 AM on January 13, 2010
It depends on what you mean. Are you using the word "community" to mean a group of people consisting only of garbage collectors, in the same way one might say "the gay community" or "the black community?" Or do you mean the community (city, town, etc.) in which the garbage collectors live with their neighbors, many of whom have other, non-sanitation related jobs?
If the former, I'd go with 4. If the latter, 2 is correct.
posted by decathecting at 8:07 AM on January 13, 2010
If the former, I'd go with 4. If the latter, 2 is correct.
posted by decathecting at 8:07 AM on January 13, 2010
The community does not belong to the garbage collectors, it comprises them. Thus "garbage collectors community" is just an alternative phrasing for "community of garbage collectors", although the latter reads better to my eye.
Upon reflection, I think I agree. I initially (mis)read the statement as a community formed by the garbage collectors, perhaps a union or something similar. In that case, I like the possessive apostrophe. But if it's just the place where they live, for instance, no apostrophe.
posted by jckll at 8:17 AM on January 13, 2010
Upon reflection, I think I agree. I initially (mis)read the statement as a community formed by the garbage collectors, perhaps a union or something similar. In that case, I like the possessive apostrophe. But if it's just the place where they live, for instance, no apostrophe.
posted by jckll at 8:17 AM on January 13, 2010
Response by poster: It's these guys, in case anyone's interested further.
Yeah, the community does not belong to the garbage collectors, but is comprised of them. In fact, I'd rather say "garbage-collector community," but I'm stuck with the plural. Once it's plural, I'm just not sure. I feel like using both the hyphen and the apostrophe is wrong -- they're kind of mutually exclusive. Putting the apostrophe makes it a possessive compound noun, and no longer a compound adjective requiring a hyphen, and vice versa (probably not the correct technical terms, just my own understandings).
These are the things that keep me up at night.
posted by thebazilist at 8:32 AM on January 13, 2010
Yeah, the community does not belong to the garbage collectors, but is comprised of them. In fact, I'd rather say "garbage-collector community," but I'm stuck with the plural. Once it's plural, I'm just not sure. I feel like using both the hyphen and the apostrophe is wrong -- they're kind of mutually exclusive. Putting the apostrophe makes it a possessive compound noun, and no longer a compound adjective requiring a hyphen, and vice versa (probably not the correct technical terms, just my own understandings).
These are the things that keep me up at night.
posted by thebazilist at 8:32 AM on January 13, 2010
I think you guys are making too much of the possessive here. I can talk about my community, or my city, or Bob's town, or Bob's office, without implying that Bob or I own those things. I think the possessive apostrophe makes sense even if you're just talking about the place where they live.
posted by ludwig_van at 8:52 AM on January 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by ludwig_van at 8:52 AM on January 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
Personally, I would go with "the garbage-collector community". No plural, no apostrophe. It's being used as an adjective here.
Just as you could say either "teacher wages are going up" or "teachers' wages are going up". To me, the former is indicative of a more telegraphic, journalistic register, which sounds more like what you're going for. (Also, to my ear, the former sounds more as though you're treating them as a group, while the latter implies individuals).
posted by threeants at 9:12 AM on January 13, 2010
Just as you could say either "teacher wages are going up" or "teachers' wages are going up". To me, the former is indicative of a more telegraphic, journalistic register, which sounds more like what you're going for. (Also, to my ear, the former sounds more as though you're treating them as a group, while the latter implies individuals).
posted by threeants at 9:12 AM on January 13, 2010
Oh, and I didn't mean to privilege the hyphenated version, as I didn't notice that was part of the question-- I have no opinion on that matter.
posted by threeants at 9:13 AM on January 13, 2010
posted by threeants at 9:13 AM on January 13, 2010
ludwig_van: Yes, but then what you are referring to as the "community" is quite literally the town in which the garbage collectors live, including everyone unrelated to that profession. But in this context, that's not what's being referred to. It's talking specifically about the "community" (social group) of garbage collectors, excluding people who are not garbage collectors. It's not so much ownership that the apostrophe implies, but how the apostrophe modifies the connotation of "community."
posted by The Winsome Parker Lewis at 9:14 AM on January 13, 2010
posted by The Winsome Parker Lewis at 9:14 AM on January 13, 2010
You are talking about the people who collect garbage in Cairo, and "community" refers to those people? That's one community. So it is the garbage collector community. Or the garbage-collector community.
I have no opinion on the hyphen.
But as long as you are referring to the community, it should be singular. Based on your sentence, that seems right. If you are referring to the people in that community, obviously they are the garbage collectors. For clarity, I would use a different construction for that, like "Building bridges to a brighter economic future for the garbage collectors in Cairo". Or "Building bridges to a brighter economic future for the community of garbage collectors in Cairo."
But again, if it is the community that is the focus, it should be "Building bridges to a brighter economic future for the garbage collector community in Cairo."
posted by gjc at 9:39 AM on January 13, 2010
I have no opinion on the hyphen.
But as long as you are referring to the community, it should be singular. Based on your sentence, that seems right. If you are referring to the people in that community, obviously they are the garbage collectors. For clarity, I would use a different construction for that, like "Building bridges to a brighter economic future for the garbage collectors in Cairo". Or "Building bridges to a brighter economic future for the community of garbage collectors in Cairo."
But again, if it is the community that is the focus, it should be "Building bridges to a brighter economic future for the garbage collector community in Cairo."
posted by gjc at 9:39 AM on January 13, 2010
I almost never use hyphens. Winston Churchill and Woodrow Wilson didn't either. The OED would rather avoid them. In my writing, hyphens are for amalgamating phrases into single words (ne'er-do-well) and for providing life support to words and prefices that wouldn't survive on their own (well-meaning, un-American), plus scattered individual cases.
It's quite clear what is meant by garbage collectors' community, apostrophe aside. The hyphen adds nothing.
posted by spamguy at 9:41 AM on January 13, 2010
It's quite clear what is meant by garbage collectors' community, apostrophe aside. The hyphen adds nothing.
posted by spamguy at 9:41 AM on January 13, 2010
I agree with gjc. It should be "garbage collector community" without an s at all. (Or a hyphen, but my view about that is less strong.) (And you could also say "community of garbage collectors".)
Compare:
"the gay community" -- NOT "the gays community"
"the latino community" -- NOT "the latinos community"
etc.
(sorry, job titles don't usually get the "community" label as much as other sorts of groups.)
posted by kestrel251 at 9:43 AM on January 13, 2010
Compare:
"the gay community" -- NOT "the gays community"
"the latino community" -- NOT "the latinos community"
etc.
(sorry, job titles don't usually get the "community" label as much as other sorts of groups.)
posted by kestrel251 at 9:43 AM on January 13, 2010
There are writers organizations and writers' programs. Both are standard English. Don't beanplate this more than the rest of us.
posted by Sidhedevil at 9:58 AM on January 13, 2010
posted by Sidhedevil at 9:58 AM on January 13, 2010
#2. That said, I'd correct "writers organization" to "writers' organization" too.
posted by nangar at 11:41 AM on January 13, 2010
posted by nangar at 11:41 AM on January 13, 2010
Yeah, the community does not belong to the garbage collectors, but is comprised of them.
There are lots of uses of English -s' and -'s that are not literally possessive in meaning. Consider "this year's winners," "our friends' absence," "Fred and Wilma's relationship," "nobody's business," "three days' walk," and so on. No actual ownership in any of those.
If the lack of literal possession is all that's keeping you from using the apostrophe, I wouldn't worry about it too much.
In fact, I wouldn't worry about it too much anyway. This is a matter of style and not of grammar; the real question is not "what's right?" but "what's consistent with the way we usually hyphenate and punctuate around here?"
posted by nebulawindphone at 11:43 AM on January 13, 2010
There are lots of uses of English -s' and -'s that are not literally possessive in meaning. Consider "this year's winners," "our friends' absence," "Fred and Wilma's relationship," "nobody's business," "three days' walk," and so on. No actual ownership in any of those.
If the lack of literal possession is all that's keeping you from using the apostrophe, I wouldn't worry about it too much.
In fact, I wouldn't worry about it too much anyway. This is a matter of style and not of grammar; the real question is not "what's right?" but "what's consistent with the way we usually hyphenate and punctuate around here?"
posted by nebulawindphone at 11:43 AM on January 13, 2010
I'd go with number 2 as well, given the constraints. I note that many of you are ignoring the fact that the poster cannot change the words.
posted by languagehat at 2:32 PM on January 13, 2010
posted by languagehat at 2:32 PM on January 13, 2010
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