Help me stop being an asshole
January 22, 2005 10:29 AM Subscribe
I am a really terrible person. I lie to everyone I know, I cheat on people relentlessly, I drink excessively and do things to hurt just about everyone I know. I hate doing these things in retrospect but when it's happening, all I can focus on is how it's benefitting me at the moment.
How do I go from being an asshole who's only concern is his own self interests to being a regular human being who concerns himself with those around him? I'm afraid that if I don't fix this soon, I'm going to lose everyone in my life.
How do I go from being an asshole who's only concern is his own self interests to being a regular human being who concerns himself with those around him? I'm afraid that if I don't fix this soon, I'm going to lose everyone in my life.
Maybe find a therapist to talk to? It sounds like you know all the behavior you're doing is wrong, but haven't figured out how or why you should stop.
A psychologist should be able to help you take that second step to not do those things.
posted by mathowie at 10:36 AM on January 22, 2005
A psychologist should be able to help you take that second step to not do those things.
posted by mathowie at 10:36 AM on January 22, 2005
I second angry modem (wow).
I have done some hurtful things to people in the past, and I could always convince myself it would be okay because I would just not tell them about it. I lied to avoid confronting my own behaviour, but they always found out in the end.
I made a rule for myself that I have to be completely honest with the people I care about - I can't sleep with another boy and lie about it, if I am acting mean I need to own up to it and apologize, etc. Once I started sticking to this rule things got much better.
You will probably be tempted to drink way too much, but then imagine what it will be like admitting to your friends or SO that you got too drunk, and it will keep you in check. Or be tempted to cheat but imagine how it will hurt your SO when you tell them.
The secret is to always stay honest even when you mess up. So even if you do give in and cheat, still tell the truth. This will keep your relationships with others based on integrity and trust - especially if you admit to your friends that you are trying to change.
posted by mai at 10:55 AM on January 22, 2005
I have done some hurtful things to people in the past, and I could always convince myself it would be okay because I would just not tell them about it. I lied to avoid confronting my own behaviour, but they always found out in the end.
I made a rule for myself that I have to be completely honest with the people I care about - I can't sleep with another boy and lie about it, if I am acting mean I need to own up to it and apologize, etc. Once I started sticking to this rule things got much better.
You will probably be tempted to drink way too much, but then imagine what it will be like admitting to your friends or SO that you got too drunk, and it will keep you in check. Or be tempted to cheat but imagine how it will hurt your SO when you tell them.
The secret is to always stay honest even when you mess up. So even if you do give in and cheat, still tell the truth. This will keep your relationships with others based on integrity and trust - especially if you admit to your friends that you are trying to change.
posted by mai at 10:55 AM on January 22, 2005
Take stock of any of your generous, kind, charitable impulses, even if they're fleeting. Watch closely for the times they come up -- the extra tip for the waitress who might not deserve it but looks pinched and tired, waving aside the close cutoff in traffic, following through the idea you had to save just a bit of your disposable income for the month (or maybe give up a drink) and give it to a good cause, volunteering for something like a soup kitchen or a habitat for humanity building day, writing a thank you note to someone -- it doesn't matter, *your* impulses to do something good might not be any of these, but if you think of it or feel it, however small the voice inside of you is, Do it. That's it. Whenever you hear/feel that kind of impression, follow it. As you exercise it, it will get bigger, and possibly eventually big enough to override strong negative impulses.
posted by weston at 11:07 AM on January 22, 2005
posted by weston at 11:07 AM on January 22, 2005
It's simply a matter of choice, and if you can't dredge up the willpower to make the right choices, there is quite literally no hope for you. Sorry if that seems harsh, but coddling never improved a single asshole in the history of the world: take the truth and run with it (and until you do, please stay away from Metafilter...we have too many assholes here as it is).
posted by rushmc at 11:22 AM on January 22, 2005
posted by rushmc at 11:22 AM on January 22, 2005
I lie to everyone I know
so who knows if you're telling the truth here.
/nitpick
anyway Matt's idea is a very valid one, therapy is a good way to try and deal with your problem
posted by matteo at 11:23 AM on January 22, 2005
so who knows if you're telling the truth here.
/nitpick
anyway Matt's idea is a very valid one, therapy is a good way to try and deal with your problem
posted by matteo at 11:23 AM on January 22, 2005
You might want to take a look at your alchohol problem in therapy or in AA. Much of the other behavior you described could be related to that. Often alcohol problems are triggered or exacerbated by emotional damage -- then in turn, they worsen the emotional problems.
Examining the drinking may help you step into that cycle, and slow it down long enough for you to figure out what's going on inside you.
posted by Miko at 11:28 AM on January 22, 2005
Examining the drinking may help you step into that cycle, and slow it down long enough for you to figure out what's going on inside you.
posted by Miko at 11:28 AM on January 22, 2005
I was in a similar position, many years ago. What I did was get all my friends together, and told them that I had been lying, cheating, stealing, etc -- and that I wasn't going to talk at great length about how I was going to change... I was just going to change.
I lost a lot of friends for obvious reasons, but I didn't talk about how I was going to make my life better, and be a better friend. I just made the decision to stop being such an asshole, and then stuck by it. It was much like quitting smoking, it that regard. You can't cheat, you just have to suck it up and not lie/smoke/cheat/steal/etc, regardless of how much it sucks, and regardless of if anyone's watching.
Best of luck. It's not easy.
posted by Jairus at 11:30 AM on January 22, 2005 [1 favorite]
I lost a lot of friends for obvious reasons, but I didn't talk about how I was going to make my life better, and be a better friend. I just made the decision to stop being such an asshole, and then stuck by it. It was much like quitting smoking, it that regard. You can't cheat, you just have to suck it up and not lie/smoke/cheat/steal/etc, regardless of how much it sucks, and regardless of if anyone's watching.
Best of luck. It's not easy.
posted by Jairus at 11:30 AM on January 22, 2005 [1 favorite]
In this case, though I'm largely not a fan of therapy, a therapist would be really handy; hopefully not to bring out any alleged demons that cause your behavior but more as a coach to keep track of your progress (as long as you don't lie to them too!). Don't despair too much; if people liked you before for your intrinsics it'll be even better it'll be when you're also a nicer person to be around.
posted by abcde at 11:33 AM on January 22, 2005
posted by abcde at 11:33 AM on January 22, 2005
It's simply a matter of choice, and if you can't dredge up the willpower to make the right choices, there is quite literally no hope for you.
i kind of agree with this. it sounds like non-advice, but seriously, it may take big consequences--the losing friends thing you mention--to get you to have motivation to change. if you've been in the clear for the most part despite knowing your behavior is "wrong," internally you've gotten accustomed to this "wrong" behavior resulting in little more than guilt and thus have continued because there are no negative consequences holding you back from it. you can try to create small-scale but noticeable negative consequences as reinforcement to change, but seriously, it may just have to come to being "scared straight."
then again, therapy/a support network is a good suggestion too.
posted by ifjuly at 11:33 AM on January 22, 2005
i kind of agree with this. it sounds like non-advice, but seriously, it may take big consequences--the losing friends thing you mention--to get you to have motivation to change. if you've been in the clear for the most part despite knowing your behavior is "wrong," internally you've gotten accustomed to this "wrong" behavior resulting in little more than guilt and thus have continued because there are no negative consequences holding you back from it. you can try to create small-scale but noticeable negative consequences as reinforcement to change, but seriously, it may just have to come to being "scared straight."
then again, therapy/a support network is a good suggestion too.
posted by ifjuly at 11:33 AM on January 22, 2005
You've taken the first of your 12 steps.
::admitted to self that there is a problem::
posted by kamylyon at 11:38 AM on January 22, 2005
::admitted to self that there is a problem::
posted by kamylyon at 11:38 AM on January 22, 2005
a therapist would be really handy; hopefully not to bring out any alleged demons that cause your behavior but more as a coach to keep track of your progress
Well, I would ask about this directly when you interview a prospective therapist: this is, after all, what a therapist is charged with doing. That is, assist you in finding ways to live and work more functionally.
The popular notion seems to be that in therapy you sit in a dark room whimpering about your childhood; but that's rarely what's going on behind those office doors. It's usually a lot more banal than that, and is indeed focused on life in the here and now, what mistaken beliefs you may hold, and how you can change them in order to feel and act differently. And if there does need to be childhood-whimpering, then it should be an exercise completely focused on identifying some likely cause of your un-helpful thinking, and then removing its power to control your behavior. Look for a psychotherapist who talks about changing your thinking and behavior patterns and improving your life.
posted by Miko at 11:42 AM on January 22, 2005
Well, I would ask about this directly when you interview a prospective therapist: this is, after all, what a therapist is charged with doing. That is, assist you in finding ways to live and work more functionally.
The popular notion seems to be that in therapy you sit in a dark room whimpering about your childhood; but that's rarely what's going on behind those office doors. It's usually a lot more banal than that, and is indeed focused on life in the here and now, what mistaken beliefs you may hold, and how you can change them in order to feel and act differently. And if there does need to be childhood-whimpering, then it should be an exercise completely focused on identifying some likely cause of your un-helpful thinking, and then removing its power to control your behavior. Look for a psychotherapist who talks about changing your thinking and behavior patterns and improving your life.
posted by Miko at 11:42 AM on January 22, 2005
Very good advice for a serious issue. The honesty bit is crucial. Just be very analytical of your actions (that may lead to lots of aggravation from you and others, but I think it would be worth it).
so who knows if you're telling the truth here.
/nitpick
matteo-- I think this would be a good point, but consider that the poster is speaking anonymously and would gain no immediate personal benefit from lying, as the other situations might. In fact telling the truth here seems to have the most immediate benefit.
posted by themadjuggler at 11:45 AM on January 22, 2005
so who knows if you're telling the truth here.
/nitpick
matteo-- I think this would be a good point, but consider that the poster is speaking anonymously and would gain no immediate personal benefit from lying, as the other situations might. In fact telling the truth here seems to have the most immediate benefit.
posted by themadjuggler at 11:45 AM on January 22, 2005
I agree with the others who are mentioning therapy as an option. I used to have a lot of negative behaviors that hurt those around me. For me, I discovered that much of it was due to my bipolar disorder. I'm not saying that you have bipolar necessarily, but there might be an underlying cause that you don't know about, and a therapist could help with that. I don't really like the statement above about willpower, only because if this is the case that there is an underlying cause, then willpower won't get you anywhere, and thinking that you simply don't have what it takes to succeed is damaging.
You may also need to examine your friends. If you hang around with people who also do the types of behavior that you are trying to stop, it may be difficult for you to stop. You may have to stop hanging around those people.
posted by veronitron at 11:46 AM on January 22, 2005
You may also need to examine your friends. If you hang around with people who also do the types of behavior that you are trying to stop, it may be difficult for you to stop. You may have to stop hanging around those people.
posted by veronitron at 11:46 AM on January 22, 2005
It's simply a matter of choice, and if you can't dredge up the willpower to make the right choices, there is quite literally no hope for you.
True, ultimately the choice of straightening out your life rests with you alone, but the support, and I mean honest support, not coddling, can help you find that willpower and give you someone to consult when you find yourself going off the rails.
The fact that your behavior bothers you is a good sign. It means you have a conscience. If you didn't, you'd be a sociopath, and then there'd be no hope for you.
posted by jonmc at 12:06 PM on January 22, 2005
True, ultimately the choice of straightening out your life rests with you alone, but the support, and I mean honest support, not coddling, can help you find that willpower and give you someone to consult when you find yourself going off the rails.
The fact that your behavior bothers you is a good sign. It means you have a conscience. If you didn't, you'd be a sociopath, and then there'd be no hope for you.
posted by jonmc at 12:06 PM on January 22, 2005
It's simply a matter of choice, and if you can't dredge up the willpower to make the right choices, there is quite literally no hope for you.
I'm a little wary of this sentiment. Ultimately, it does come down to your choices to change -- in the end, nothing else will matter much. But the fact is that sometimes willpower isn't enough to overcome habit, addiction, character flaws -- you get thrown back by the force of internal feelings and structures you were born with or have been building over the course of a lifetime. The lucky thing is, as Mark Pilgrim pointed to, sometimes you get a ladder lowered to you -- sometimes your heart and mind and body is clear enough and you have an impulse to quit. Sometimes you figure out what's driving your tangled behavior that makes you want to fill a need with something that can't ever satisfy it, and you untanglethings. Sometimes you reach outside of yourself for strength beyond what you've got -- to friends, to God, to better thinking -- and you'll get it. It's not all about building up enough force of will that you smash through any contrary compulsions, no matter how strong. The rest of the stuff has to be done to control the compulsions and then (if you're lucky) have the real change of heart.
posted by weston at 12:14 PM on January 22, 2005
I'm a little wary of this sentiment. Ultimately, it does come down to your choices to change -- in the end, nothing else will matter much. But the fact is that sometimes willpower isn't enough to overcome habit, addiction, character flaws -- you get thrown back by the force of internal feelings and structures you were born with or have been building over the course of a lifetime. The lucky thing is, as Mark Pilgrim pointed to, sometimes you get a ladder lowered to you -- sometimes your heart and mind and body is clear enough and you have an impulse to quit. Sometimes you figure out what's driving your tangled behavior that makes you want to fill a need with something that can't ever satisfy it, and you untanglethings. Sometimes you reach outside of yourself for strength beyond what you've got -- to friends, to God, to better thinking -- and you'll get it. It's not all about building up enough force of will that you smash through any contrary compulsions, no matter how strong. The rest of the stuff has to be done to control the compulsions and then (if you're lucky) have the real change of heart.
posted by weston at 12:14 PM on January 22, 2005
Therapy is a good idea (you sound depressed.) But in addition, I think you need to sign yourself up for some volunteer work, and not just a couple of hours a week at a library either. I'm thinking more like 8 hours, one day a week, at a hospice, animal shelter, habitat for humanity, or a hospital, etc. What you are describing is narcissism, and the best antidote for that is engaging in activities where you are not the main focus. You will learn to train your mind to look outward at the world. It may take a while, but I guarantee in six months you will feel a whole lot better about yourself - and you might not get the same results from just therapy alone. Good luck.
posted by lilboo at 12:20 PM on January 22, 2005 [2 favorites]
posted by lilboo at 12:20 PM on January 22, 2005 [2 favorites]
I'd be interested in knowing exactly how much you lie, cheat and drink. It may not be as much as you think. I'm not saying this as a fact, or as a reason for you to feel less guilty, but the amount of guilt people feel usually has little relavance to the severity of the crime. All three things are normal human failings, and it's only a problem if they're way out of control.
Also, is the lying and cheating linked to the drinking? Because, if it is, then that's a different issue.
A couple of sessions with somebody you can talk with privately is a great option if only to give to an objective handle on how bad you are. This could be a therapist or a priest or an organisation like The Samaritans.
Also, as said, you may be slightly bipolar, or suffer from a degree of mania. I knew somebody who would say about themselves exactly what you said. Even though she was a good person (even with the lying & the cheating) it plagued her for years. In the end, it was diagnosed as mania.
I'm not saying this to worry you though. Chances are that it's something different.
You've accepted that you have a problem, and this is good. Now, you need to find out if you really do have a problem, and then you can look to dealing with it.
posted by seanyboy at 12:23 PM on January 22, 2005
Also, is the lying and cheating linked to the drinking? Because, if it is, then that's a different issue.
A couple of sessions with somebody you can talk with privately is a great option if only to give to an objective handle on how bad you are. This could be a therapist or a priest or an organisation like The Samaritans.
Also, as said, you may be slightly bipolar, or suffer from a degree of mania. I knew somebody who would say about themselves exactly what you said. Even though she was a good person (even with the lying & the cheating) it plagued her for years. In the end, it was diagnosed as mania.
I'm not saying this to worry you though. Chances are that it's something different.
You've accepted that you have a problem, and this is good. Now, you need to find out if you really do have a problem, and then you can look to dealing with it.
posted by seanyboy at 12:23 PM on January 22, 2005
re: what weston said. Charity is good, but don't give more than you can afford. Also, if you have a huge amount of debt (on top of all the other shit that's going through your head), then get to a therapist straight away.
posted by seanyboy at 12:28 PM on January 22, 2005
posted by seanyboy at 12:28 PM on January 22, 2005
A.A., if you can stomach it (it's not for everyone) basically focuses on how not to act like a P.O.S. and to "repair the wreckage of the past" once the actual drinking is arrested. If you're interested in abstinence and can deal with the 12 step model, I know men (and women) who have completely turned their characters--not just their lives--around.
posted by availablelight at 12:41 PM on January 22, 2005 [1 favorite]
posted by availablelight at 12:41 PM on January 22, 2005 [1 favorite]
On a sort of pavlovian, stimulus-response level...
If doing good things makes you feel good, then you'll continue to do them. I've noticed in the last few years that, in a lot of cases, doing nice things for people often makes me feel, well, good. Kind of a warm and comfortable feeling. Before, I think I tried hard to be a nice person mostly because I was terrified of becoming an asshole like my father and grandfather and because of guilt.
Is there anything that you do for other people that makes you feel good? Could be almost anything, big or small: cooking a meal, making a mix CD, giving someone a ride to work. Even if what you enjoy is the activity itself (maybe you're an amateur gourmet, music critic, race car driver) rather than the fact that you're doing it for someone, it's a start.
Along the same lines:
Do you enjoy receiving expressions of gratitude or affection? Do you like hugs, pats on the back, 'thank you' cards, etc? If so, perhaps these things - and if not, then perhaps something else - could serve as reinforcement for the desired behavior.
posted by Clay201 at 12:52 PM on January 22, 2005
If doing good things makes you feel good, then you'll continue to do them. I've noticed in the last few years that, in a lot of cases, doing nice things for people often makes me feel, well, good. Kind of a warm and comfortable feeling. Before, I think I tried hard to be a nice person mostly because I was terrified of becoming an asshole like my father and grandfather and because of guilt.
Is there anything that you do for other people that makes you feel good? Could be almost anything, big or small: cooking a meal, making a mix CD, giving someone a ride to work. Even if what you enjoy is the activity itself (maybe you're an amateur gourmet, music critic, race car driver) rather than the fact that you're doing it for someone, it's a start.
Along the same lines:
Do you enjoy receiving expressions of gratitude or affection? Do you like hugs, pats on the back, 'thank you' cards, etc? If so, perhaps these things - and if not, then perhaps something else - could serve as reinforcement for the desired behavior.
posted by Clay201 at 12:52 PM on January 22, 2005
I support the suggestion of talking things over with a therapist. But be prepared: you may have to accept the unpleasant truth that being a regular human being who concerns himself with those around him just isn't you. This doesn't mean you have to resign yourself to being a jerk; but it may mean that you'll have to learn to live with not being the person you thought you were, or should be.
posted by SPrintF at 6:04 PM on January 22, 2005
posted by SPrintF at 6:04 PM on January 22, 2005
"I want to change, I'm not sure how to change, what can I do?" This is sort of the tailor-made situation for a therapist.
Old research showed that the YAVIS patient (young, attractive, verbal, intelligent and successful) is most likely to benefit from therapy. This describes most MeFites, so you'll probably get along just fine.
posted by ikkyu2 at 6:15 PM on January 22, 2005
Old research showed that the YAVIS patient (young, attractive, verbal, intelligent and successful) is most likely to benefit from therapy. This describes most MeFites, so you'll probably get along just fine.
posted by ikkyu2 at 6:15 PM on January 22, 2005
I have always thought that therapy was an acknowledgement of defeat and an abdication of personal responsibility. I do not mean to start a flamewar here -- I understand that 'professional help' has had a positive effect in many peoples' lives. But I feel the same way about it that I do about medication for long-term emotional disturbance: that it should be a last resort, after it has become clear that one simply can not make things better without help, and after a full understanding of the contingent emotional consequences of seeking help from someone else, or from drugs, or both.
Again, I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but I've seen too often that a decision to do so can reinforce the feeling of powerlessness and victimhood and the external locus of control that may lay in part at the root of the person's problems in the first place.
To the original poster, well, I offer this: it is easy, in most situations, to know what the 'right' thing to do is. If you consistently do that very thing, you no longer have a problem. The 'right' thing does not necessarily mean acting like a saint, and putting other peoples' concerns before your own, but it does entail being aware of the negative consequence of selfish action both to yourself (of which you are clearly aware already, judging by your question) and to those around you, in the short and long term. Choose the action about which you will feel unguilty in the future, about which you might be proud to speak, which will harm no-one, so far as that is possible.
It is not hard to do. It is that simple.
You know, or therapy. If you really can not see your way to behaving with enlightened self-interest without help.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:43 PM on January 22, 2005
Again, I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but I've seen too often that a decision to do so can reinforce the feeling of powerlessness and victimhood and the external locus of control that may lay in part at the root of the person's problems in the first place.
To the original poster, well, I offer this: it is easy, in most situations, to know what the 'right' thing to do is. If you consistently do that very thing, you no longer have a problem. The 'right' thing does not necessarily mean acting like a saint, and putting other peoples' concerns before your own, but it does entail being aware of the negative consequence of selfish action both to yourself (of which you are clearly aware already, judging by your question) and to those around you, in the short and long term. Choose the action about which you will feel unguilty in the future, about which you might be proud to speak, which will harm no-one, so far as that is possible.
It is not hard to do. It is that simple.
You know, or therapy. If you really can not see your way to behaving with enlightened self-interest without help.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:43 PM on January 22, 2005
And so far as the drink goes, I am perhaps unqualified to speak, because I am also a drinker, although I have worked hard to ensure that it is not a negative influence on my life.
Stop drinking entirely, for a time, I'd have to say, until you sort yourself out. I've done it in the past, under not dissimilar circumstances.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:46 PM on January 22, 2005
Stop drinking entirely, for a time, I'd have to say, until you sort yourself out. I've done it in the past, under not dissimilar circumstances.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:46 PM on January 22, 2005
My experience directly contradicts stavros' viewpoints on therapy, and while it might not be for you, anonymous poster, it might be helpful to get down to causes and conditions. My last therapist -- who was short-term oriented and rather assertive, and had no interest in keeping me there for years, he wanted me to *get better* -- very concretely helped me begin to take personal responsibility, stop lying to myself and others, and stop being a selfish dick. (Most of the time. Heh.)
And my experience with pharmacological drugs -- for me they were useful in the short-term while I got my shit together -- says that they don't have to be a last resort.
It really helps to have a crisis to instigate a change your life. But there's no reason you have to sit around and wait for -- or engineer -- one. If you find yourself on a ledge, you've waited too long. Go ahead and acknowledge defeat now, and let's move on.
Just because you exhibit bad behaviors doesn't mean you're an asshole. You hate yourself, you act like an ass, you hate yourself more, then you get to call yourself names. It's self-pitying/self-hating bullshit.
Quit treating yourself like shit. It's your choice if you want to continue living in this crippled fashion the rest of your life. So get pissed off and do something about it.
posted by RJ Reynolds at 6:58 PM on January 22, 2005
And my experience with pharmacological drugs -- for me they were useful in the short-term while I got my shit together -- says that they don't have to be a last resort.
It really helps to have a crisis to instigate a change your life. But there's no reason you have to sit around and wait for -- or engineer -- one. If you find yourself on a ledge, you've waited too long. Go ahead and acknowledge defeat now, and let's move on.
Just because you exhibit bad behaviors doesn't mean you're an asshole. You hate yourself, you act like an ass, you hate yourself more, then you get to call yourself names. It's self-pitying/self-hating bullshit.
Quit treating yourself like shit. It's your choice if you want to continue living in this crippled fashion the rest of your life. So get pissed off and do something about it.
posted by RJ Reynolds at 6:58 PM on January 22, 2005
First of all, congratulations on owning up to your faults to yourself, and for making a decision to change. It's easy to feel bad about yourself / things you've done to hurt people, but it's not as easy to decide to change, or to follow through with that change. So, good for you. And don't beat yourself up if that change doesn't happen overnight.
When you sit down and think about it, you may find that lying/cheating = drinking too much, or that drinking too much = lying/cheating for you. Or you may find that [something else] = lying/cheating/drinking too much, to numb the pain of that something else. Trying to figure that out is a good place to start, in order to point yourself in the right direction (AA, therapist, just doing volunteer work, etc).
With regard to conditions mentioned above (depression, mania, etc), I'd like to offer that it would be good to talk to a therapist before talking to a doctor (MD). Mild forms of depression can be worked out with talk therapy, i.e. without medicating yourself. I'm always a big advocate of trying to avoid medicating when possible.
Of course in the end you may find mediction helpful, and there's no shame in that. But I would hesitate to do so without trying to work things out "cold turkey" as it were.
Best of luck.
On preview: I have always thought that therapy was an acknowledgement of defeat and an abdication of personal responsibility. Stavros, I understand what you're trying to put across, but I don't think we should attach any shame to what works for some people. Different strokes for different folks.
posted by vignettist at 7:03 PM on January 22, 2005
When you sit down and think about it, you may find that lying/cheating = drinking too much, or that drinking too much = lying/cheating for you. Or you may find that [something else] = lying/cheating/drinking too much, to numb the pain of that something else. Trying to figure that out is a good place to start, in order to point yourself in the right direction (AA, therapist, just doing volunteer work, etc).
With regard to conditions mentioned above (depression, mania, etc), I'd like to offer that it would be good to talk to a therapist before talking to a doctor (MD). Mild forms of depression can be worked out with talk therapy, i.e. without medicating yourself. I'm always a big advocate of trying to avoid medicating when possible.
Of course in the end you may find mediction helpful, and there's no shame in that. But I would hesitate to do so without trying to work things out "cold turkey" as it were.
Best of luck.
On preview: I have always thought that therapy was an acknowledgement of defeat and an abdication of personal responsibility. Stavros, I understand what you're trying to put across, but I don't think we should attach any shame to what works for some people. Different strokes for different folks.
posted by vignettist at 7:03 PM on January 22, 2005
The opposite of what stavrosthewonderchicken said. Except for the drinking part.
posted by bingo at 7:05 PM on January 22, 2005
posted by bingo at 7:05 PM on January 22, 2005
is the drinking related to the lying and the cheating and the being a terrible person? ... if the answer's yes, then your drinking is ruining your life ... and it's time to go to a a
if the answer's no ... a therapist might be helpful ... or a church
whatever you do, you'll have to be brutally honest with yourself ... and at least one other person
posted by pyramid termite at 7:17 PM on January 22, 2005
if the answer's no ... a therapist might be helpful ... or a church
whatever you do, you'll have to be brutally honest with yourself ... and at least one other person
posted by pyramid termite at 7:17 PM on January 22, 2005
Stavros does have a point, though - seeking therapy is like admitting defeat and abdicating personal responsibility in some ways. You're in control of you, and you should be the one to fix it. The _act_ of seeking therapy can be like giving up control over your life - you can't lick this thing, you've failed, you're beaten, now someone else has to fix it.
The trick is to realise that therapy is a tool, not a solution.
Someone I once paid to see made the biggest difference. She told me "You'll do alright, you'll sort yourself out. Know why I can say that? Because, unlike many of my other patients, you're not looking for me to fix you, or give you the answers. You're here because you're looking for the hints, the tips, the guidance, the tools to fix yourself."
On preview: what pyramid termite said about the booze...
posted by Pinback at 7:40 PM on January 22, 2005
The trick is to realise that therapy is a tool, not a solution.
Someone I once paid to see made the biggest difference. She told me "You'll do alright, you'll sort yourself out. Know why I can say that? Because, unlike many of my other patients, you're not looking for me to fix you, or give you the answers. You're here because you're looking for the hints, the tips, the guidance, the tools to fix yourself."
On preview: what pyramid termite said about the booze...
posted by Pinback at 7:40 PM on January 22, 2005
I second Miko's suggestion. AA is a place where you can just sit back and listen for as long as you need to. That would help you ease into honesty, especially if you can't afford therapy. And when you do decide to talk, there is a whole group there to support you, to help you break down your walls, and actually connect to people. And, it's anonymous.
Also, have you seen this book? I know depression is not your problem directly, but the idea of going abroad, seeing something bigger than you, is not wholly without merit. When I volunteered abroad, it was the most valuable experience of my life. You may want to cut your ties completely and take some time for self examination.
posted by scazza at 7:43 PM on January 22, 2005
Also, have you seen this book? I know depression is not your problem directly, but the idea of going abroad, seeing something bigger than you, is not wholly without merit. When I volunteered abroad, it was the most valuable experience of my life. You may want to cut your ties completely and take some time for self examination.
posted by scazza at 7:43 PM on January 22, 2005
Stavros, I understand what you're trying to put across, but I don't think we should attach any shame to what works for some people.
That was the furthest thing from my intent. There is no shame, and should not be. There should be understanding. Asking for help is not a bad thing, in any way -- I merely believe that shifting the burden to someone else to help us with our emotional or personality problems has consequences to our conception of ourselves that should be well understood before doing so. Those consequences may be negative in some cases, as I suggested, but that is not necessarily so.
I advocate drugs or therapy as possibly useful things in extremis, not as a first port of call, is all.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 7:43 PM on January 22, 2005
That was the furthest thing from my intent. There is no shame, and should not be. There should be understanding. Asking for help is not a bad thing, in any way -- I merely believe that shifting the burden to someone else to help us with our emotional or personality problems has consequences to our conception of ourselves that should be well understood before doing so. Those consequences may be negative in some cases, as I suggested, but that is not necessarily so.
I advocate drugs or therapy as possibly useful things in extremis, not as a first port of call, is all.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 7:43 PM on January 22, 2005
The opposite of what stavrosthewonderchicken said. Except for the drinking part.
What part of "it is easy, in most situations, to know what the 'right' thing to do is. If you consistently do that very thing, you no longer have a problem. The 'right' thing does not necessarily mean acting like a saint, and putting other peoples' concerns before your own, but it does entail being aware of the negative consequence of selfish action both to yourself (of which you are clearly aware already, judging by your question) and to those around you, in the short and long term. Choose the action about which you will feel unguilty in the future, about which you might be proud to speak, which will harm no-one, so far as that is possible" do you disagree with so strongly, bingo?
Feel free not to answer that if you think it does not serve to help to answer the original poster's questions, of course.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 7:47 PM on January 22, 2005
What part of "it is easy, in most situations, to know what the 'right' thing to do is. If you consistently do that very thing, you no longer have a problem. The 'right' thing does not necessarily mean acting like a saint, and putting other peoples' concerns before your own, but it does entail being aware of the negative consequence of selfish action both to yourself (of which you are clearly aware already, judging by your question) and to those around you, in the short and long term. Choose the action about which you will feel unguilty in the future, about which you might be proud to speak, which will harm no-one, so far as that is possible" do you disagree with so strongly, bingo?
Feel free not to answer that if you think it does not serve to help to answer the original poster's questions, of course.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 7:47 PM on January 22, 2005
Great advice in this thread!
I suspect you're not as big an asshole as you say, given the extent of remorse that you seem to have. In any event, it's pretty unlikely that you could go from being an asshole to being a great person all in one step, so the initial questions in therapy would be to try to figure out what exactly it is that is maintaining your problems. The fact that you have some insight into yourself is a *really* good sign.
If someone came to me as a therapist and described your situation, my first goal would be to try to understand the role that drinking plays in maintaining the problems. I would be *very* interested in this, and hopefully, you would get interested in it as well.
posted by jasper411 at 7:48 PM on January 22, 2005
I suspect you're not as big an asshole as you say, given the extent of remorse that you seem to have. In any event, it's pretty unlikely that you could go from being an asshole to being a great person all in one step, so the initial questions in therapy would be to try to figure out what exactly it is that is maintaining your problems. The fact that you have some insight into yourself is a *really* good sign.
If someone came to me as a therapist and described your situation, my first goal would be to try to understand the role that drinking plays in maintaining the problems. I would be *very* interested in this, and hopefully, you would get interested in it as well.
posted by jasper411 at 7:48 PM on January 22, 2005
The _act_ of seeking therapy can be like giving up control over your life
Seems to me that seeking therapy is taking back control over your life, where up until that point your life may have been out of control. It's realizing that whatever you've been doing isn't working, and so you are conciously doing something else to make your life work again. Seeking out therapy can be very empowering, completely the opposite of giving up. Therapists don't fix the problems in your life. They don't do the work for you. They merely serve as guides on a journey. You have to actually do the work.
Again, I think attaching shame to something that is helpful for some people can have the adverse affect of others not seeking it out, for fear of the stigma.
There should be no more shame attached to getting help for mental/emotional issues than there is for going to the doctor to get a prescription for the patch to help you stop smoking.
posted by vignettist at 7:58 PM on January 22, 2005
Seems to me that seeking therapy is taking back control over your life, where up until that point your life may have been out of control. It's realizing that whatever you've been doing isn't working, and so you are conciously doing something else to make your life work again. Seeking out therapy can be very empowering, completely the opposite of giving up. Therapists don't fix the problems in your life. They don't do the work for you. They merely serve as guides on a journey. You have to actually do the work.
Again, I think attaching shame to something that is helpful for some people can have the adverse affect of others not seeking it out, for fear of the stigma.
There should be no more shame attached to getting help for mental/emotional issues than there is for going to the doctor to get a prescription for the patch to help you stop smoking.
posted by vignettist at 7:58 PM on January 22, 2005
There should be no more shame attached to getting help for mental/emotional issues than there is for going to the doctor to get a prescription for the patch to help you stop smoking.
Like I said, clearly, I thought, shame should not enter into it.
But your equivalency here is a tautalogy, in my opinion. It would be better, or at least shed more light, to say "there should be no more shame attached to getting help for mental/emotional issues than there is for going to the doctor to get a boil lanced."
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 8:06 PM on January 22, 2005
Like I said, clearly, I thought, shame should not enter into it.
But your equivalency here is a tautalogy, in my opinion. It would be better, or at least shed more light, to say "there should be no more shame attached to getting help for mental/emotional issues than there is for going to the doctor to get a boil lanced."
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 8:06 PM on January 22, 2005
Fair enough. And somehow I missed your third comment above. Apologies. Sounds like we're actually not that far apart here.
posted by vignettist at 8:25 PM on January 22, 2005
posted by vignettist at 8:25 PM on January 22, 2005
If you are enjoying yourself then I see little reason to change.
Lying, cheating, and drinking too much are not crimes. Perhaps you shouldn't judge yourself so harshly or worry so much of what others might think. The whole "before it's too late" sentiment is pathetic. If you only want to be a "better" person to mollify others then you will probably fail. This isn't a proper motivation for a grown man.
But if you are determined to make such a drastic change at least be precise about it. Ask these people you care for how exactly your behavior hurts them and also ask what sort of person they want you to be. Put everything in writing if you can. Then you should choose, also in writing, betwen these others and your behavior and be prepared to defend such a choice.
posted by nixerman at 9:19 PM on January 22, 2005
Lying, cheating, and drinking too much are not crimes. Perhaps you shouldn't judge yourself so harshly or worry so much of what others might think. The whole "before it's too late" sentiment is pathetic. If you only want to be a "better" person to mollify others then you will probably fail. This isn't a proper motivation for a grown man.
But if you are determined to make such a drastic change at least be precise about it. Ask these people you care for how exactly your behavior hurts them and also ask what sort of person they want you to be. Put everything in writing if you can. Then you should choose, also in writing, betwen these others and your behavior and be prepared to defend such a choice.
posted by nixerman at 9:19 PM on January 22, 2005
Stavros does have a point, though - seeking therapy is like admitting defeat and abdicating personal responsibility in some ways. You're in control of you, and you should be the one to fix it. The _act_ of seeking therapy can be like giving up control over your life - you can't lick this thing, you've failed, you're beaten, now someone else has to fix it.
? if you know you need help and you're not going to lick a problem completely from your inner resources (whatever they are), how is making the decision to act accordingly and get some more resources "admitting defeat" or even "abdicating personal responsbility" except in the most surface sort of way? it seems a bit like saying "if you're starving and you don't own a farm or the means to produce your own food and instead seek help from a grocery store, you've lost control of your ability to feed yourself." on a very superficial level, yes...but beyond that...
posted by ifjuly at 9:34 PM on January 22, 2005
? if you know you need help and you're not going to lick a problem completely from your inner resources (whatever they are), how is making the decision to act accordingly and get some more resources "admitting defeat" or even "abdicating personal responsbility" except in the most surface sort of way? it seems a bit like saying "if you're starving and you don't own a farm or the means to produce your own food and instead seek help from a grocery store, you've lost control of your ability to feed yourself." on a very superficial level, yes...but beyond that...
posted by ifjuly at 9:34 PM on January 22, 2005
Take a break.
Get away from the people you know and situations you are in for a while if you can.
If you can't, then make a lifestyle change. If it makes it easier come up with a good excuse. Say you are going on a health diet that procludes alchohol for a while (South Beach does this, and there are reasons to go on the diet other than weight, like getting your cholesterol down). Do some different things, and get out of your headspace. Volunteer somewhere.
Someone on AskMeFi earlier said their revelation of the year was that "Forgive them. They know not what they do" also applies to yourself. Talk through this stuff with someone, even it is a counselor / stranger for a session or two.
posted by xammerboy at 10:58 PM on January 22, 2005
Get away from the people you know and situations you are in for a while if you can.
If you can't, then make a lifestyle change. If it makes it easier come up with a good excuse. Say you are going on a health diet that procludes alchohol for a while (South Beach does this, and there are reasons to go on the diet other than weight, like getting your cholesterol down). Do some different things, and get out of your headspace. Volunteer somewhere.
Someone on AskMeFi earlier said their revelation of the year was that "Forgive them. They know not what they do" also applies to yourself. Talk through this stuff with someone, even it is a counselor / stranger for a session or two.
posted by xammerboy at 10:58 PM on January 22, 2005
stavrosthewonderchicken: What part of...do you disagree with so strongly, bingo?
In the context of the two paragraphs that you put before it, and of the question that's being answered, I disagree with all of it, hence my statement.
posted by bingo at 12:10 AM on January 23, 2005
In the context of the two paragraphs that you put before it, and of the question that's being answered, I disagree with all of it, hence my statement.
posted by bingo at 12:10 AM on January 23, 2005
Really? Hmph. I'm bemused, to put it mildly, but each to their own, I guess.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 1:11 AM on January 23, 2005
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 1:11 AM on January 23, 2005
All the above is good advice, and may well help you out. I'd like to add something a little different as well, though: help someone else.
Find a way that you can help, somehow, and do it. Sling soup in a soup kitchen. Volunteer in a hospital. Don't wait for the perfect volunteer opportunity to come along, just find something and do it. Make this a new part of your life.
I can tell you from experience that giving of yourself has a profound effect on areas of your life where you never thought it would. I have been volunteering in a hospital for a while now, and it has given me a perspective on my own life that I would never have had otherwise. I know that I can help. I don't have to be perfect all the time, and in fact I can still be quite an asshole when I'm not thinking, but I can help. Even if it's by bringing little cups of water to people who are learning to walk again after surgery or whatever.
In short -- you don't have to suddenly stop being an asshole (your words, not mine -- I doubt you are) -- you just have to act in ways that are kinder, more helpful. If you force yourself to do this for a while, I bet you'll wake up in a little while and realize that you are in fact a kind, giving person.
posted by jennyjenny at 2:34 PM on January 23, 2005
Find a way that you can help, somehow, and do it. Sling soup in a soup kitchen. Volunteer in a hospital. Don't wait for the perfect volunteer opportunity to come along, just find something and do it. Make this a new part of your life.
I can tell you from experience that giving of yourself has a profound effect on areas of your life where you never thought it would. I have been volunteering in a hospital for a while now, and it has given me a perspective on my own life that I would never have had otherwise. I know that I can help. I don't have to be perfect all the time, and in fact I can still be quite an asshole when I'm not thinking, but I can help. Even if it's by bringing little cups of water to people who are learning to walk again after surgery or whatever.
In short -- you don't have to suddenly stop being an asshole (your words, not mine -- I doubt you are) -- you just have to act in ways that are kinder, more helpful. If you force yourself to do this for a while, I bet you'll wake up in a little while and realize that you are in fact a kind, giving person.
posted by jennyjenny at 2:34 PM on January 23, 2005
Charity is good, but don't give more than you can afford.
Yeah, and maybe I was a little too heavy on the money examples. What I mean is maybe closer to what jennyjenny said. Except as well as planning events into your life where you are doing good things for other people -- watch for those moments where you know there's something good you could do for something else. It might be something simple, something that really wouldn't cost you a lot of time or money to do ... but that you don't, because you're out of the habit, or because it feels a little awkward. Just nurture that impulse by acting on it.
posted by weston at 3:45 PM on January 23, 2005
Yeah, and maybe I was a little too heavy on the money examples. What I mean is maybe closer to what jennyjenny said. Except as well as planning events into your life where you are doing good things for other people -- watch for those moments where you know there's something good you could do for something else. It might be something simple, something that really wouldn't cost you a lot of time or money to do ... but that you don't, because you're out of the habit, or because it feels a little awkward. Just nurture that impulse by acting on it.
posted by weston at 3:45 PM on January 23, 2005
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by angry modem at 10:36 AM on January 22, 2005 [1 favorite]